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Re: [XP] ANN: TP 2.0 Release (Agile Project Management Sof

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  • Michael Dubakov
    ... simple ... other ... you don t ... Yes, I do agree with that. We never recommend to start right from TargetProcess if customer is completely new to agile.
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 1 1:59 AM
      > The "travel light" principle. One should attempt any endeavor with
      simple
      > tools, and with XP values, then see if they scale. If you go in the
      other
      > direction, you will have trouble removing Things if you can't tell
      you don't
      > really need.

      Yes, I do agree with that. We never recommend to start right from
      TargetProcess if customer is completely new to agile. But "travel
      light" is abstract principle and "light" for one company will be
      "heavy" for another.


      >
      > Michael wrote:
      >
      > > Why do you think agile project management is not demand
      > > any tools excepts traditional XP? Iterative development
      > > is not a new concept and why it should not be supported
      > > by web based tools? How can you inject it into remote teams without
      > > such tools?
      >
      > The "travel light" principle. One should attempt any endeavor with
      simple
      > tools, and with XP values, then see if they scale. If you go in the
      other
      > direction, you will have trouble removing Things if you can't tell
      you don't
      > really need.
      >
      > This applies to any complexity situation. "Things" could be:
      >
      > - excess lines of code
      > - excess heavy databases
      > - excess paperwork in your shop
      > - excess teammates
      > - excess consultants
      > - excess supporting tools
      >
      > It's generally easier to start simple and add the complexity that
      you find
      > you need. It's generally much harder to start complex and then
      identify and
      > remove the elements you _don't_ need.
      >
      > --
      > Phlip
      > http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
      >
    • Michael Dubakov
      ... I am really want to discuss about heaviness in TargetProcess. We ve tried made it as simple as possible, and if we ve failed somewhere we will improve
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 1 2:24 AM
        >The product struck me as apparently heavy, and not all that
        >well-described. I was cusped about it, gave it the benefit of the
        >doubt, but though I'd inquire what the People think ...

        I am really want to discuss about "heaviness" in TargetProcess. We've
        tried made it as simple as possible, and if we've failed somewhere we
        will improve for sure. For me "heaviness" is usage pain. How many
        clicks/actions developer or team lead should make to complete the
        goal? How much time the tool usage takes each day? On our opinion
        TargetProcess supplements usual XP tools like cards and white boards.
        Sho why it is heavy?

        Michael
        http://www.targetprocess.com

        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
        <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello, yahoogroups. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 10:06:50
        > AM, you wrote:
        >
        > > I ignored it in the queue for several days. Someone else approved it.
        > > The reason I ignored it was overselling - one of the issues we try
        > > to get people to look at is whether they need an automated project
        > > management system at all. Some projects do, some don't.
        >
        > > This product may bring something useful for certain environments,
        > > but I don't see it in the brief overview.
        >
        > > I personally don't see any difficulty with product announcements
        > > in general; what I don't like is products that hit the wrong end of
        > > what we are, in general, advocating.
        >
        > I approved it, reluctantly, on the grounds that knowing is better
        > than not knowing. But I didn't upgrade the poster: left him
        > moderated. Also we were spammed with a second announcement from
        > someone else at the company. I rejected that one.
        >
        > The product struck me as apparently heavy, and not all that
        > well-described. I was cusped about it, gave it the benefit of the
        > doubt, but though I'd inquire what the People think ...
        >
        > Ron Jeffries
        > www.XProgramming.com
        > To Fly, Flip Away Backhanded -- Master Frisbee
        >
      • Ron Jeffries
        Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 5:24:20 AM, you ... In my post, heaviness refers not to how easy the product is to use, but the kind of
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 1 3:39 AM
          Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 5:24:20 AM, you
          wrote:

          >>The product struck me as apparently heavy, and not all that
          >>well-described. I was cusped about it, gave it the benefit of the
          >>doubt, but though I'd inquire what the People think ...

          > I am really want to discuss about "heaviness" in TargetProcess. We've
          > tried made it as simple as possible, and if we've failed somewhere we
          > will improve for sure. For me "heaviness" is usage pain. How many
          > clicks/actions developer or team lead should make to complete the
          > goal? How much time the tool usage takes each day? On our opinion
          > TargetProcess supplements usual XP tools like cards and white boards.
          > Sho why it is heavy?

          In my post, heaviness refers not to how easy the product is to use,
          but the kind of process it implements. In fact, a process that goes
          beyond cards and whiteboards is heavier than one that doesn't.

          I have not tried the product, so do not know in detail how heavy or
          light a process it evokes, but I notice that it has:

          A bug list -- not a good sign in my opinion ...
          Time tracking -- not the first Agile chart I'd draw ...
          Projects -- are these what XP would call stories? With ...
          Priority, Status, Effort, Progress, Time Spent, Time Remaining
          (Which, because the tool has them, are all likely to be used.)
          No less than 5 (five!) tabs of information for each project ...
          Customization -- which could be good, given how complex an
          approach it seems to handle ...
          The stars are all red, and I wanted some white and blue ones ...
          A "burn down" chart that I don't understand at all, with an
          apparent "effort" focus. Maybe that just means points or story
          size, I'm not sure ...
          An apparent focus on work assignment rather than dynamic work
          selection ...
          Bug Tracking with nine or a dozen columns of information ...
          Complex bug addition page -- really planning to have lots of
          defects I guess ...
          Bug event list -- so we can be all over those bug fixers ...
          Screenshot bug capture looks pretty cool, I must admit!
          "Dozen of features and patterns" -- seems a lot. (Did you mean
          "dozens", by the way? Or "many"?)
          Workflow -- ?
          Requirements info stored in the tool instead of in conversation
          and tests ...

          This quote is an example of what troubles me:

          What Should I Do Today?

          This is the top question for any developer. Some of us write tasks
          on cards, others keeps all tasks in mind, in email Inbox, some use
          various productivity tools. TargetProcess provides an integrated
          ToDo list for all assignments, including user stories, tasks and
          bugs.

          I don't see why it's really helpful, on an Agile team, to ...
          Have a computerized list at all ...
          Use a computer to keep track of what could be on the wall ...
          Record "all" "assignments" ...

          Big enough team, distributed enough, sure ... and those are the
          things John Roth was talking about that we are pushing against
          people doing at all.

          That's not to say that people don't do them, and don't need to do
          them. But will this product help people do what they should be
          fixing?


          Overall, it looks like a good-looking tool into which much work has
          gone. I don't see, for myself, how it is that it enhances the things
          I like to see Agile projects doing. I do imagine that if you can get
          people to try it, many of them will use it. I'm not sure that's a
          good thing, but I am known to be a fanatic.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire.
          He was probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to
          light - Howard Roark (The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand)
        • Michael Dubakov
          I see quite large gap between what we want to put into TargetProcess and your comments. Maybe it is our fault. ... Do you really not have bugs in your
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 1 4:23 AM
            I see quite large gap between what we want to put into TargetProcess
            and your comments. Maybe it is our fault.

            > A bug list -- not a good sign in my opinion ...

            Do you really not have bugs in your projects? At least you should
            handle them like user stories. TargetProcess do exactly that.

            > Time tracking -- not the first Agile chart I'd draw ...

            Time Tracking can be switched off. And there will be no
            such columns as Time Spent, Time Remaining etc.
            We've tried to make TP flexible. If you don't need time tracking,
            turn it off and all time related parts will be removed from UI.

            > Projects -- are these what XP would call stories? With ...

            Projects are projects. Company may have many projects to work on
            and XP stories are represented by "user stories" in TP
            (inside exact project). TargetProcess is not a tool for only one
            project, it supports multiple projects as well.

            > Priority, Status, Effort, Progress, Time Spent, Time Remaining
            > (Which, because the tool has them, are all likely to be used.)

            Almost all of these columns calculated automatically except Priority
            and Effort (in points) which are set manually.
            You set Priority (Business Value) and Effort on cards in anyway!


            > A "burn down" chart that I don't understand at all, with an
            > apparent "effort" focus. Maybe that just means points or story
            > size, I'm not sure ...

            Burn down is natural, maybe we should put more info about it. Burn
            down measures remaining effort units (points or ideal hours, since
            different teams prefer different units).

            > An apparent focus on work assignment rather than dynamic work
            > selection ...

            Yes, that is maybe right. We will try to improve here.

            > Bug Tracking with nine or a dozen columns of information ...
            > Complex bug addition page -- really planning to have lots of
            > defects I guess ...

            You may use just one field - bug name. Other fields are optional
            and there are 7-9 fields in total. Is it really complex?
            Bugzilla has 25 fields!

            > Workflow -- ?

            Simple state management. For example, bug workflow may be different
            in different companies.

            > Requirements info stored in the tool instead of in conversation
            > and tests ...

            TP does not foce you to store requirements in the tool.
            You may do that, but may not. In fact tool implementation
            often is not about the tool, it is about the people.
            If project manager or team lead will be wise and know how to
            lead the team effectively, she will not burden the process,
            but will use the tool to increase efficiency. If not, no one
            can help.

            Michael
            http://www.targetprocess.com


            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
            <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 5:24:20 AM, you
            > wrote:
            >
            > >>The product struck me as apparently heavy, and not all that
            > >>well-described. I was cusped about it, gave it the benefit of the
            > >>doubt, but though I'd inquire what the People think ...
            >
            > > I am really want to discuss about "heaviness" in TargetProcess. We've
            > > tried made it as simple as possible, and if we've failed somewhere we
            > > will improve for sure. For me "heaviness" is usage pain. How many
            > > clicks/actions developer or team lead should make to complete the
            > > goal? How much time the tool usage takes each day? On our opinion
            > > TargetProcess supplements usual XP tools like cards and white boards.
            > > Sho why it is heavy?
            >
            > In my post, heaviness refers not to how easy the product is to use,
            > but the kind of process it implements. In fact, a process that goes
            > beyond cards and whiteboards is heavier than one that doesn't.
            >
            > I have not tried the product, so do not know in detail how heavy or
            > light a process it evokes, but I notice that it has:
            >
            > A bug list -- not a good sign in my opinion ...
            > Time tracking -- not the first Agile chart I'd draw ...
            > Projects -- are these what XP would call stories? With ...
            > Priority, Status, Effort, Progress, Time Spent, Time Remaining
            > (Which, because the tool has them, are all likely to be used.)
            > No less than 5 (five!) tabs of information for each project ...
            > Customization -- which could be good, given how complex an
            > approach it seems to handle ...
            > The stars are all red, and I wanted some white and blue ones ...
            > A "burn down" chart that I don't understand at all, with an
            > apparent "effort" focus. Maybe that just means points or story
            > size, I'm not sure ...
            > An apparent focus on work assignment rather than dynamic work
            > selection ...
            > Bug Tracking with nine or a dozen columns of information ...
            > Complex bug addition page -- really planning to have lots of
            > defects I guess ...
            > Bug event list -- so we can be all over those bug fixers ...
            > Screenshot bug capture looks pretty cool, I must admit!
            > "Dozen of features and patterns" -- seems a lot. (Did you mean
            > "dozens", by the way? Or "many"?)
            > Workflow -- ?
            > Requirements info stored in the tool instead of in conversation
            > and tests ...
            >
            > This quote is an example of what troubles me:
            >
            > What Should I Do Today?
            >
            > This is the top question for any developer. Some of us write tasks
            > on cards, others keeps all tasks in mind, in email Inbox, some use
            > various productivity tools. TargetProcess provides an integrated
            > ToDo list for all assignments, including user stories, tasks and
            > bugs.
            >
            > I don't see why it's really helpful, on an Agile team, to ...
            > Have a computerized list at all ...
            > Use a computer to keep track of what could be on the wall ...
            > Record "all" "assignments" ...
            >
            > Big enough team, distributed enough, sure ... and those are the
            > things John Roth was talking about that we are pushing against
            > people doing at all.
            >
            > That's not to say that people don't do them, and don't need to do
            > them. But will this product help people do what they should be
            > fixing?
            >
            >
            > Overall, it looks like a good-looking tool into which much work has
            > gone. I don't see, for myself, how it is that it enhances the things
            > I like to see Agile projects doing. I do imagine that if you can get
            > people to try it, many of them will use it. I'm not sure that's a
            > good thing, but I am known to be a fanatic.
            >
            > Ron Jeffries
            > www.XProgramming.com
            > Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire.
            > He was probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to
            > light - Howard Roark (The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand)
            >
          • Ron Jeffries
            Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 7:23:27 AM, you ... Or it could be mine. I believe that tools are more commonly an impediment to the
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 1 10:31 AM
              Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 7:23:27 AM, you
              wrote:

              > I see quite large gap between what we want to put into TargetProcess
              > and your comments. Maybe it is our fault.

              Or it could be mine. I believe that tools are more commonly an
              impediment to the interactions between individuals that, to me, are
              core to doing Agile (and especially what I think XP is).

              But as I tried to indicate before, your tool looks nice, and
              comprehensive. It appears to be well done, at least as far as one
              can tell from the screen shots.

              And I've not used it, so I couldn't possible know as much as you do.

              I do know this: Chet Hendrickson and I have been coaching Agile
              projects for nigh on to a decade now, and we program most every day
              when we're not on a gig. If we knew of a software product for
              guiding Agile projects, we would have built it by now. Chet puts it
              this way: We don't build a product because we can't think of a
              product we would actually recommend.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way. -- Jessica Rabbit
            • George Dinwiddie
              ... I don t mind product announcements, but this one is, in my opinion, rather long on marketing-speak. I ve got no idea what maps entities life-cycle to
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 1 5:30 PM
                Ron Jeffries wrote:
                > Hello, members. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 5:20:31 AM,
                > Michael wrote:
                >
                >> TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of
                >> TargetProcess v.2 <http://www.targetprocess.com> , the next generation
                >> project management software
                >> product for agile projects.
                >
                > Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
                > avowedly agile-focused product, or not?

                I don't mind product announcements, but this one is, in my opinion,
                rather long on marketing-speak. I've got no idea what "maps entities
                life-cycle to your business processes" means. Between the fact that it
                lists features that aren't described, and the weird formatting (in text
                mode, anyway), I wouldn't be inclined to give it a second thought.

                I think a short, personal description of the itch the product intends to
                scratch would be more appropriate to the list than this sort of
                brochure-ware.

                - George

                --
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                * George Dinwiddie * gdinwiddie@...
                Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              • Charlie Poole
                Hi George, ... I m not a moderator, but if I were, I wouldn t want to exercise that level of decision-making in deciding what to let through. The list itself
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 1 6:09 PM
                  Hi George,

                  > > Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
                  > > avowedly agile-focused product, or not?
                  >
                  > I don't mind product announcements, but this one is, in my
                  > opinion, rather long on marketing-speak. I've got no idea
                  > what "maps entities life-cycle to your business processes"
                  > means. Between the fact that it lists features that aren't
                  > described, and the weird formatting (in text mode, anyway), I
                  > wouldn't be inclined to give it a second thought.
                  >
                  > I think a short, personal description of the itch the product
                  > intends to scratch would be more appropriate to the list than
                  > this sort of brochure-ware.

                  I'm not a moderator, but if I were, I wouldn't want to exercise
                  that level of decision-making in deciding what to let through.

                  The list itself usually decides such things by failing to respond
                  to items that are not of interest. :-)

                  Charlie
                • Ron Jeffries
                  Hello, Charlie. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 9:09:35 PM, you ... You don t see some of the stuff that we re offered. Do you need any nice girls from Russia
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 1 6:34 PM
                    Hello, Charlie. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 9:09:35 PM, you
                    wrote:

                    > I'm not a moderator, but if I were, I wouldn't want to exercise
                    > that level of decision-making in deciding what to let through.

                    > The list itself usually decides such things by failing to respond
                    > to items that are not of interest. :-)

                    You don't see some of the stuff that we're offered. Do you need any
                    nice girls from Russia this week?

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
                    will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
                    I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
                    Why pay now when we can pay later?
                  • George Dinwiddie
                    ... True. The link to agility is probably strong enough to allow the message. The tone of the message made me unaware of it until Ron raised the question.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 2 8:45 AM
                      Charlie Poole wrote:
                      >> I think a short, personal description of the itch the product
                      >> intends to scratch would be more appropriate to the list than
                      >> this sort of brochure-ware.
                      >
                      > I'm not a moderator, but if I were, I wouldn't want to exercise
                      > that level of decision-making in deciding what to let through.
                      >
                      > The list itself usually decides such things by failing to respond
                      > to items that are not of interest. :-)

                      True. The link to agility is probably strong enough to allow the
                      message. The tone of the message made me unaware of it until Ron raised
                      the question. I'd skipped past it without noticing. :-)


                      --
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      * George Dinwiddie * gdinwiddie@...
                      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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