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ANN: TP 2.0 Release (Agile Project Management Software)

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  • Michael Dubakov
    TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of TargetProcess v.2 , the next generation project management software
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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      TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of
      TargetProcess v.2 <http://www.targetprocess.com> , the next generation
      project management software
      product for agile projects.

      TargetProcess core features include:

      • Real-Time Progress Tracking – forecasts release date,
      provides
      actual project status and comprehensive information about the current
      iteration progress.

      • Full Iterative Development Support – scalable solution for
      small and
      large projects. Enables Releases, Iterations, User Stories, Features
      and Tasks management. Releases and Iteration Planning can be performed
      via drag and drop interface.

      • Development Process Customization – different companies and
      even
      different projects inside one company often demands different
      development processes. TargetProcess is designed with the "unique
      process for unique project" concept in mind.

      • Integrated Bug Tracking – supports full bug life-cycle
      management,
      bugs planning and assignment, automatic notifications, attachments and
      comments, change history, personalized ToDo lists, complex filters,
      search and jump by bug id.

      • Productivity Tools – execute usual tasks faster with the
      new Bug
      Submission Tool (Tp.Tray), assign/reassign users from multiple places
      in the application, drag and drop interface for prioritization and
      planning.

      • Customizable Workflows – maps entities life-cycle to your
      business
      processes.

      • Customizable dashboards – create personal dashboards.


      Additional information and online demo version available at
      http://www.targetprocess.com <http://www.targetprocess.com> .



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, members. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 5:20:31 AM, ... Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an avowedly agile-focused
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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        Hello, members. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 5:20:31 AM,
        Michael wrote:

        > TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of
        > TargetProcess v.2 <http://www.targetprocess.com> , the next generation
        > project management software
        > product for agile projects.

        Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
        avowedly agile-focused product, or not?

        Thanks,

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        To tolerate a problem is to insist on it. -- Software for Your Head
      • Sammy Larbi
        ... I don t know if I d ever find use for such a product, but it certainly sounds better that fitting agile to an existing product, as was mentioned before. I
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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          Ron Jeffries wrote, On 11/30/2006 4:54 AM:
          > Hello, members. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 5:20:31 AM,
          > Michael wrote:
          >
          >
          >> TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of
          >> TargetProcess v.2 <http://www.targetprocess.com> , the next generation
          >> project management software
          >> product for agile projects.
          >>
          >
          > Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
          > avowedly agile-focused product, or not?
          >
          >

          I don't know if I'd ever find use for such a product, but it certainly
          sounds better that fitting agile to an existing product, as was
          mentioned before. I didn't mind it much.
        • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
          ... From: Ron Jeffries To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ron Jeffries"
            <ronjeffries.at.XProgramming.com@...>
            To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
            <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
            Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:54 AM
            Subject: [MODERATION QUESTION] Re: [XP] ANN: TP 2.0 Release (Agile Project
            Management Software)


            > Hello, members. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 5:20:31 AM,
            > Michael wrote:
            >
            >> TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of
            >> TargetProcess v.2 <http://www.targetprocess.com> , the next generation
            >> project management software
            >> product for agile projects.
            >
            > Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
            > avowedly agile-focused product, or not?

            I ignored it in the queue for several days. Someone else approved it.
            The reason I ignored it was overselling - one of the issues we try
            to get people to look at is whether they need an automated project
            management system at all. Some projects do, some don't.

            This product may bring something useful for certain environments,
            but I don't see it in the brief overview.

            I personally don't see any difficulty with product announcements
            in general; what I don't like is products that hit the wrong end of
            what we are, in general, advocating.

            John Roth

            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Ron Jeffries
            > www.XProgramming.com
            > To tolerate a problem is to insist on it. -- Software for Your Head
            >
            >
          • Michael Dubakov
            ... what we are, in general, advocating. Why do you think agile project management is not demand any tools excepts traditional XP? Iterative development is not
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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              >what I don't like is products that hit the wrong end of
              what we are, in general, advocating.

              Why do you think agile project management is not demand
              any tools excepts traditional XP? Iterative development
              is not a new concept and why it should not be supported
              by web based tools? How can you inject it into remote teams without
              such tools?

              Michael

              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Ron Jeffries"
              > <ronjeffries.at.XProgramming.com@...>
              > To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
              > <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
              > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:54 AM
              > Subject: [MODERATION QUESTION] Re: [XP] ANN: TP 2.0 Release (Agile
              Project
              > Management Software)
              >
              >
              > > Hello, members. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 5:20:31 AM,
              > > Michael wrote:
              > >
              > >> TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of
              > >> TargetProcess v.2 <http://www.targetprocess.com> , the next
              generation
              > >> project management software
              > >> product for agile projects.
              > >
              > > Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
              > > avowedly agile-focused product, or not?
              >
              > I ignored it in the queue for several days. Someone else approved it.
              > The reason I ignored it was overselling - one of the issues we try
              > to get people to look at is whether they need an automated project
              > management system at all. Some projects do, some don't.
              >
              > This product may bring something useful for certain environments,
              > but I don't see it in the brief overview.
              >
              > I personally don't see any difficulty with product announcements
              > in general; what I don't like is products that hit the wrong end of
              > what we are, in general, advocating.
              >
              > John Roth
              >
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Ron Jeffries
              > > www.XProgramming.com
              > > To tolerate a problem is to insist on it. -- Software for Your Head
              > >
              > >
              >
            • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
              ... From: Michael Dubakov To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Michael Dubakov" <firefalcon.at.tut.by@...>
                To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
                <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
                Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:55 AM
                Subject: Re: [XP] ANN: TP 2.0 Release (Agile Project Management Sof


                >what I don't like is products that hit the wrong end of
                what we are, in general, advocating.

                Why do you think agile project management is not demand
                any tools excepts traditional XP? Iterative development
                is not a new concept and why it should not be supported
                by web based tools? How can you inject it into remote teams without
                such tools?

                Michael

                [Response]

                What makes you think I think that? Or didn't you read
                far enough to get to the phrase "Some do, some don't."?

                John Roth

                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Ron Jeffries"
                > <ronjeffries.at.XProgramming.com@...>
                > To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
                > <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
                > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:54 AM
                > Subject: [MODERATION QUESTION] Re: [XP] ANN: TP 2.0 Release (Agile
                Project
                > Management Software)
                >
                >
                > > Hello, members. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 5:20:31 AM,
                > > Michael wrote:
                > >
                > >> TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of
                > >> TargetProcess v.2 <http://www.targetprocess.com> , the next
                generation
                > >> project management software
                > >> product for agile projects.
                > >
                > > Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
                > > avowedly agile-focused product, or not?
                >
                > I ignored it in the queue for several days. Someone else approved it.
                > The reason I ignored it was overselling - one of the issues we try
                > to get people to look at is whether they need an automated project
                > management system at all. Some projects do, some don't.
                >
                > This product may bring something useful for certain environments,
                > but I don't see it in the brief overview.
                >
                > I personally don't see any difficulty with product announcements
                > in general; what I don't like is products that hit the wrong end of
                > what we are, in general, advocating.
                >
                > John Roth
                >
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > >
                > > Ron Jeffries
                > > www.XProgramming.com
                > > To tolerate a problem is to insist on it. -- Software for Your Head
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello, Michael. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 10:55:34 AM, ... John didn t say that no tools are required, he said that he didn t like products aimed at
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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                  Hello, Michael. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 10:55:34 AM,
                  you wrote:

                  >>what I don't like is products that hit the wrong end of
                  > what we are, in general, advocating.

                  > Why do you think agile project management is not demand
                  > any tools excepts traditional XP? Iterative development
                  > is not a new concept and why it should not be supported
                  > by web based tools? How can you inject it into remote teams without
                  > such tools?

                  John didn't say that no tools are required, he said that he didn't
                  like products aimed at the wrong end -- presumably the high end --
                  of what we're advocating.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  It is better to attempt something great and fail that attempt,
                  than to attempt to do nothing and succeed.
                  --Cookie, Garden Court Chinese Restaurant, Hamburg, MI
                • Phlip
                  ... The travel light principle. One should attempt any endeavor with simple tools, and with XP values, then see if they scale. If you go in the other
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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                    Michael wrote:

                    > Why do you think agile project management is not demand
                    > any tools excepts traditional XP? Iterative development
                    > is not a new concept and why it should not be supported
                    > by web based tools? How can you inject it into remote teams without
                    > such tools?

                    The "travel light" principle. One should attempt any endeavor with simple
                    tools, and with XP values, then see if they scale. If you go in the other
                    direction, you will have trouble removing Things if you can't tell you don't
                    really need.

                    This applies to any complexity situation. "Things" could be:

                    - excess lines of code
                    - excess heavy databases
                    - excess paperwork in your shop
                    - excess teammates
                    - excess consultants
                    - excess supporting tools

                    It's generally easier to start simple and add the complexity that you find
                    you need. It's generally much harder to start complex and then identify and
                    remove the elements you _don't_ need.

                    --
                    Phlip
                    http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
                  • Chris Wheeler
                    Here s an idea - probably too time consuming (though I m beginning to think that Ron Jeffries is a Time Lord, what with all the stuff he does..) I don t mind
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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                      Here's an idea - probably too time consuming (though I'm beginning to think
                      that Ron Jeffries is a Time Lord, what with all the stuff he does..)

                      I don't mind seeing agile products, as long as I don't feel I'm getting
                      tricked while looking at the product website. For instance, I'm instantly
                      turned off the second a website asks me to enter my name and company for the
                      privilege of viewing their product. On the other had, I'm more than willing
                      to look at and even try a product if I can do it anonymously and within 2
                      clicks of visiting the product website.

                      So, my idea is to allow a product if it obeys these rules:

                      1) I don't have to enter any info to try/view the product
                      2) I don't have to weed through marketing literature (2 click max) to get to
                      the product demo.

                      Chris.


                      On 11/30/06, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello, members. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 5:20:31 AM,
                      > Michael wrote:
                      >
                      > > TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of
                      > > TargetProcess v.2 <http://www.targetprocess.com> , the next generation
                      > > project management software
                      > > product for agile projects.
                      >
                      > Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
                      > avowedly agile-focused product, or not?
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      >
                      > Ron Jeffries
                      > www.XProgramming.com
                      > To tolerate a problem is to insist on it. -- Software for Your Head
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      --
                      Chris Wheeler
                      chriswheeler.blogspot.com
                      coach, programmer & practitioner


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      Hello, Chris. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 8:31:12 PM, you ... Bummer. Outed. ... I ve polled the most conveniently available moderator, and he says
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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                        Hello, Chris. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 8:31:12 PM, you
                        wrote:

                        > Here's an idea - probably too time consuming (though I'm beginning to think
                        > that Ron Jeffries is a Time Lord, what with all the stuff he does..)

                        Bummer. Outed.

                        > So, my idea is to allow a product if it obeys these rules:

                        > 1) I don't have to enter any info to try/view the product
                        > 2) I don't have to weed through marketing literature (2 click max) to get to
                        > the product demo.

                        I've polled the most conveniently available moderator, and he says
                        he's not going to test the proposed product announcements to see if
                        they pass these criteria. He likes them, though, that detail aside.

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future. -- Niels Bohr
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        Hello, yahoogroups. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 10:06:50 ... I approved it, reluctantly, on the grounds that knowing is better than not knowing. But I
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 30, 2006
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                          Hello, yahoogroups. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 10:06:50
                          AM, you wrote:

                          > I ignored it in the queue for several days. Someone else approved it.
                          > The reason I ignored it was overselling - one of the issues we try
                          > to get people to look at is whether they need an automated project
                          > management system at all. Some projects do, some don't.

                          > This product may bring something useful for certain environments,
                          > but I don't see it in the brief overview.

                          > I personally don't see any difficulty with product announcements
                          > in general; what I don't like is products that hit the wrong end of
                          > what we are, in general, advocating.

                          I approved it, reluctantly, on the grounds that knowing is better
                          than not knowing. But I didn't upgrade the poster: left him
                          moderated. Also we were spammed with a second announcement from
                          someone else at the company. I rejected that one.

                          The product struck me as apparently heavy, and not all that
                          well-described. I was cusped about it, gave it the benefit of the
                          doubt, but though I'd inquire what the People think ...

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          To Fly, Flip Away Backhanded -- Master Frisbee
                        • Michael Dubakov
                          ... simple ... other ... you don t ... Yes, I do agree with that. We never recommend to start right from TargetProcess if customer is completely new to agile.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 1, 2006
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                            > The "travel light" principle. One should attempt any endeavor with
                            simple
                            > tools, and with XP values, then see if they scale. If you go in the
                            other
                            > direction, you will have trouble removing Things if you can't tell
                            you don't
                            > really need.

                            Yes, I do agree with that. We never recommend to start right from
                            TargetProcess if customer is completely new to agile. But "travel
                            light" is abstract principle and "light" for one company will be
                            "heavy" for another.


                            >
                            > Michael wrote:
                            >
                            > > Why do you think agile project management is not demand
                            > > any tools excepts traditional XP? Iterative development
                            > > is not a new concept and why it should not be supported
                            > > by web based tools? How can you inject it into remote teams without
                            > > such tools?
                            >
                            > The "travel light" principle. One should attempt any endeavor with
                            simple
                            > tools, and with XP values, then see if they scale. If you go in the
                            other
                            > direction, you will have trouble removing Things if you can't tell
                            you don't
                            > really need.
                            >
                            > This applies to any complexity situation. "Things" could be:
                            >
                            > - excess lines of code
                            > - excess heavy databases
                            > - excess paperwork in your shop
                            > - excess teammates
                            > - excess consultants
                            > - excess supporting tools
                            >
                            > It's generally easier to start simple and add the complexity that
                            you find
                            > you need. It's generally much harder to start complex and then
                            identify and
                            > remove the elements you _don't_ need.
                            >
                            > --
                            > Phlip
                            > http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
                            >
                          • Michael Dubakov
                            ... I am really want to discuss about heaviness in TargetProcess. We ve tried made it as simple as possible, and if we ve failed somewhere we will improve
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 1, 2006
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                              >The product struck me as apparently heavy, and not all that
                              >well-described. I was cusped about it, gave it the benefit of the
                              >doubt, but though I'd inquire what the People think ...

                              I am really want to discuss about "heaviness" in TargetProcess. We've
                              tried made it as simple as possible, and if we've failed somewhere we
                              will improve for sure. For me "heaviness" is usage pain. How many
                              clicks/actions developer or team lead should make to complete the
                              goal? How much time the tool usage takes each day? On our opinion
                              TargetProcess supplements usual XP tools like cards and white boards.
                              Sho why it is heavy?

                              Michael
                              http://www.targetprocess.com

                              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                              <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello, yahoogroups. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 10:06:50
                              > AM, you wrote:
                              >
                              > > I ignored it in the queue for several days. Someone else approved it.
                              > > The reason I ignored it was overselling - one of the issues we try
                              > > to get people to look at is whether they need an automated project
                              > > management system at all. Some projects do, some don't.
                              >
                              > > This product may bring something useful for certain environments,
                              > > but I don't see it in the brief overview.
                              >
                              > > I personally don't see any difficulty with product announcements
                              > > in general; what I don't like is products that hit the wrong end of
                              > > what we are, in general, advocating.
                              >
                              > I approved it, reluctantly, on the grounds that knowing is better
                              > than not knowing. But I didn't upgrade the poster: left him
                              > moderated. Also we were spammed with a second announcement from
                              > someone else at the company. I rejected that one.
                              >
                              > The product struck me as apparently heavy, and not all that
                              > well-described. I was cusped about it, gave it the benefit of the
                              > doubt, but though I'd inquire what the People think ...
                              >
                              > Ron Jeffries
                              > www.XProgramming.com
                              > To Fly, Flip Away Backhanded -- Master Frisbee
                              >
                            • Ron Jeffries
                              Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 5:24:20 AM, you ... In my post, heaviness refers not to how easy the product is to use, but the kind of
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 5:24:20 AM, you
                                wrote:

                                >>The product struck me as apparently heavy, and not all that
                                >>well-described. I was cusped about it, gave it the benefit of the
                                >>doubt, but though I'd inquire what the People think ...

                                > I am really want to discuss about "heaviness" in TargetProcess. We've
                                > tried made it as simple as possible, and if we've failed somewhere we
                                > will improve for sure. For me "heaviness" is usage pain. How many
                                > clicks/actions developer or team lead should make to complete the
                                > goal? How much time the tool usage takes each day? On our opinion
                                > TargetProcess supplements usual XP tools like cards and white boards.
                                > Sho why it is heavy?

                                In my post, heaviness refers not to how easy the product is to use,
                                but the kind of process it implements. In fact, a process that goes
                                beyond cards and whiteboards is heavier than one that doesn't.

                                I have not tried the product, so do not know in detail how heavy or
                                light a process it evokes, but I notice that it has:

                                A bug list -- not a good sign in my opinion ...
                                Time tracking -- not the first Agile chart I'd draw ...
                                Projects -- are these what XP would call stories? With ...
                                Priority, Status, Effort, Progress, Time Spent, Time Remaining
                                (Which, because the tool has them, are all likely to be used.)
                                No less than 5 (five!) tabs of information for each project ...
                                Customization -- which could be good, given how complex an
                                approach it seems to handle ...
                                The stars are all red, and I wanted some white and blue ones ...
                                A "burn down" chart that I don't understand at all, with an
                                apparent "effort" focus. Maybe that just means points or story
                                size, I'm not sure ...
                                An apparent focus on work assignment rather than dynamic work
                                selection ...
                                Bug Tracking with nine or a dozen columns of information ...
                                Complex bug addition page -- really planning to have lots of
                                defects I guess ...
                                Bug event list -- so we can be all over those bug fixers ...
                                Screenshot bug capture looks pretty cool, I must admit!
                                "Dozen of features and patterns" -- seems a lot. (Did you mean
                                "dozens", by the way? Or "many"?)
                                Workflow -- ?
                                Requirements info stored in the tool instead of in conversation
                                and tests ...

                                This quote is an example of what troubles me:

                                What Should I Do Today?

                                This is the top question for any developer. Some of us write tasks
                                on cards, others keeps all tasks in mind, in email Inbox, some use
                                various productivity tools. TargetProcess provides an integrated
                                ToDo list for all assignments, including user stories, tasks and
                                bugs.

                                I don't see why it's really helpful, on an Agile team, to ...
                                Have a computerized list at all ...
                                Use a computer to keep track of what could be on the wall ...
                                Record "all" "assignments" ...

                                Big enough team, distributed enough, sure ... and those are the
                                things John Roth was talking about that we are pushing against
                                people doing at all.

                                That's not to say that people don't do them, and don't need to do
                                them. But will this product help people do what they should be
                                fixing?


                                Overall, it looks like a good-looking tool into which much work has
                                gone. I don't see, for myself, how it is that it enhances the things
                                I like to see Agile projects doing. I do imagine that if you can get
                                people to try it, many of them will use it. I'm not sure that's a
                                good thing, but I am known to be a fanatic.

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire.
                                He was probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to
                                light - Howard Roark (The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand)
                              • Michael Dubakov
                                I see quite large gap between what we want to put into TargetProcess and your comments. Maybe it is our fault. ... Do you really not have bugs in your
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                  I see quite large gap between what we want to put into TargetProcess
                                  and your comments. Maybe it is our fault.

                                  > A bug list -- not a good sign in my opinion ...

                                  Do you really not have bugs in your projects? At least you should
                                  handle them like user stories. TargetProcess do exactly that.

                                  > Time tracking -- not the first Agile chart I'd draw ...

                                  Time Tracking can be switched off. And there will be no
                                  such columns as Time Spent, Time Remaining etc.
                                  We've tried to make TP flexible. If you don't need time tracking,
                                  turn it off and all time related parts will be removed from UI.

                                  > Projects -- are these what XP would call stories? With ...

                                  Projects are projects. Company may have many projects to work on
                                  and XP stories are represented by "user stories" in TP
                                  (inside exact project). TargetProcess is not a tool for only one
                                  project, it supports multiple projects as well.

                                  > Priority, Status, Effort, Progress, Time Spent, Time Remaining
                                  > (Which, because the tool has them, are all likely to be used.)

                                  Almost all of these columns calculated automatically except Priority
                                  and Effort (in points) which are set manually.
                                  You set Priority (Business Value) and Effort on cards in anyway!


                                  > A "burn down" chart that I don't understand at all, with an
                                  > apparent "effort" focus. Maybe that just means points or story
                                  > size, I'm not sure ...

                                  Burn down is natural, maybe we should put more info about it. Burn
                                  down measures remaining effort units (points or ideal hours, since
                                  different teams prefer different units).

                                  > An apparent focus on work assignment rather than dynamic work
                                  > selection ...

                                  Yes, that is maybe right. We will try to improve here.

                                  > Bug Tracking with nine or a dozen columns of information ...
                                  > Complex bug addition page -- really planning to have lots of
                                  > defects I guess ...

                                  You may use just one field - bug name. Other fields are optional
                                  and there are 7-9 fields in total. Is it really complex?
                                  Bugzilla has 25 fields!

                                  > Workflow -- ?

                                  Simple state management. For example, bug workflow may be different
                                  in different companies.

                                  > Requirements info stored in the tool instead of in conversation
                                  > and tests ...

                                  TP does not foce you to store requirements in the tool.
                                  You may do that, but may not. In fact tool implementation
                                  often is not about the tool, it is about the people.
                                  If project manager or team lead will be wise and know how to
                                  lead the team effectively, she will not burden the process,
                                  but will use the tool to increase efficiency. If not, no one
                                  can help.

                                  Michael
                                  http://www.targetprocess.com


                                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                                  <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 5:24:20 AM, you
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >>The product struck me as apparently heavy, and not all that
                                  > >>well-described. I was cusped about it, gave it the benefit of the
                                  > >>doubt, but though I'd inquire what the People think ...
                                  >
                                  > > I am really want to discuss about "heaviness" in TargetProcess. We've
                                  > > tried made it as simple as possible, and if we've failed somewhere we
                                  > > will improve for sure. For me "heaviness" is usage pain. How many
                                  > > clicks/actions developer or team lead should make to complete the
                                  > > goal? How much time the tool usage takes each day? On our opinion
                                  > > TargetProcess supplements usual XP tools like cards and white boards.
                                  > > Sho why it is heavy?
                                  >
                                  > In my post, heaviness refers not to how easy the product is to use,
                                  > but the kind of process it implements. In fact, a process that goes
                                  > beyond cards and whiteboards is heavier than one that doesn't.
                                  >
                                  > I have not tried the product, so do not know in detail how heavy or
                                  > light a process it evokes, but I notice that it has:
                                  >
                                  > A bug list -- not a good sign in my opinion ...
                                  > Time tracking -- not the first Agile chart I'd draw ...
                                  > Projects -- are these what XP would call stories? With ...
                                  > Priority, Status, Effort, Progress, Time Spent, Time Remaining
                                  > (Which, because the tool has them, are all likely to be used.)
                                  > No less than 5 (five!) tabs of information for each project ...
                                  > Customization -- which could be good, given how complex an
                                  > approach it seems to handle ...
                                  > The stars are all red, and I wanted some white and blue ones ...
                                  > A "burn down" chart that I don't understand at all, with an
                                  > apparent "effort" focus. Maybe that just means points or story
                                  > size, I'm not sure ...
                                  > An apparent focus on work assignment rather than dynamic work
                                  > selection ...
                                  > Bug Tracking with nine or a dozen columns of information ...
                                  > Complex bug addition page -- really planning to have lots of
                                  > defects I guess ...
                                  > Bug event list -- so we can be all over those bug fixers ...
                                  > Screenshot bug capture looks pretty cool, I must admit!
                                  > "Dozen of features and patterns" -- seems a lot. (Did you mean
                                  > "dozens", by the way? Or "many"?)
                                  > Workflow -- ?
                                  > Requirements info stored in the tool instead of in conversation
                                  > and tests ...
                                  >
                                  > This quote is an example of what troubles me:
                                  >
                                  > What Should I Do Today?
                                  >
                                  > This is the top question for any developer. Some of us write tasks
                                  > on cards, others keeps all tasks in mind, in email Inbox, some use
                                  > various productivity tools. TargetProcess provides an integrated
                                  > ToDo list for all assignments, including user stories, tasks and
                                  > bugs.
                                  >
                                  > I don't see why it's really helpful, on an Agile team, to ...
                                  > Have a computerized list at all ...
                                  > Use a computer to keep track of what could be on the wall ...
                                  > Record "all" "assignments" ...
                                  >
                                  > Big enough team, distributed enough, sure ... and those are the
                                  > things John Roth was talking about that we are pushing against
                                  > people doing at all.
                                  >
                                  > That's not to say that people don't do them, and don't need to do
                                  > them. But will this product help people do what they should be
                                  > fixing?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Overall, it looks like a good-looking tool into which much work has
                                  > gone. I don't see, for myself, how it is that it enhances the things
                                  > I like to see Agile projects doing. I do imagine that if you can get
                                  > people to try it, many of them will use it. I'm not sure that's a
                                  > good thing, but I am known to be a fanatic.
                                  >
                                  > Ron Jeffries
                                  > www.XProgramming.com
                                  > Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire.
                                  > He was probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to
                                  > light - Howard Roark (The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand)
                                  >
                                • Ron Jeffries
                                  Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 7:23:27 AM, you ... Or it could be mine. I believe that tools are more commonly an impediment to the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                    Hello, Michael. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 7:23:27 AM, you
                                    wrote:

                                    > I see quite large gap between what we want to put into TargetProcess
                                    > and your comments. Maybe it is our fault.

                                    Or it could be mine. I believe that tools are more commonly an
                                    impediment to the interactions between individuals that, to me, are
                                    core to doing Agile (and especially what I think XP is).

                                    But as I tried to indicate before, your tool looks nice, and
                                    comprehensive. It appears to be well done, at least as far as one
                                    can tell from the screen shots.

                                    And I've not used it, so I couldn't possible know as much as you do.

                                    I do know this: Chet Hendrickson and I have been coaching Agile
                                    projects for nigh on to a decade now, and we program most every day
                                    when we're not on a gig. If we knew of a software product for
                                    guiding Agile projects, we would have built it by now. Chet puts it
                                    this way: We don't build a product because we can't think of a
                                    product we would actually recommend.

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way. -- Jessica Rabbit
                                  • George Dinwiddie
                                    ... I don t mind product announcements, but this one is, in my opinion, rather long on marketing-speak. I ve got no idea what maps entities life-cycle to
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                      Ron Jeffries wrote:
                                      > Hello, members. On Thursday, November 30, 2006, at 5:20:31 AM,
                                      > Michael wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> TargetProcess Company is pleased to announce the release of
                                      >> TargetProcess v.2 <http://www.targetprocess.com> , the next generation
                                      >> project management software
                                      >> product for agile projects.
                                      >
                                      > Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
                                      > avowedly agile-focused product, or not?

                                      I don't mind product announcements, but this one is, in my opinion,
                                      rather long on marketing-speak. I've got no idea what "maps entities
                                      life-cycle to your business processes" means. Between the fact that it
                                      lists features that aren't described, and the weird formatting (in text
                                      mode, anyway), I wouldn't be inclined to give it a second thought.

                                      I think a short, personal description of the itch the product intends to
                                      scratch would be more appropriate to the list than this sort of
                                      brochure-ware.

                                      - George

                                      --
                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      * George Dinwiddie * gdinwiddie@...
                                      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    • Charlie Poole
                                      Hi George, ... I m not a moderator, but if I were, I wouldn t want to exercise that level of decision-making in deciding what to let through. The list itself
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                        Hi George,

                                        > > Question: Should this have been permitted, on the basis of being an
                                        > > avowedly agile-focused product, or not?
                                        >
                                        > I don't mind product announcements, but this one is, in my
                                        > opinion, rather long on marketing-speak. I've got no idea
                                        > what "maps entities life-cycle to your business processes"
                                        > means. Between the fact that it lists features that aren't
                                        > described, and the weird formatting (in text mode, anyway), I
                                        > wouldn't be inclined to give it a second thought.
                                        >
                                        > I think a short, personal description of the itch the product
                                        > intends to scratch would be more appropriate to the list than
                                        > this sort of brochure-ware.

                                        I'm not a moderator, but if I were, I wouldn't want to exercise
                                        that level of decision-making in deciding what to let through.

                                        The list itself usually decides such things by failing to respond
                                        to items that are not of interest. :-)

                                        Charlie
                                      • Ron Jeffries
                                        Hello, Charlie. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 9:09:35 PM, you ... You don t see some of the stuff that we re offered. Do you need any nice girls from Russia
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 1, 2006
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                                          Hello, Charlie. On Friday, December 1, 2006, at 9:09:35 PM, you
                                          wrote:

                                          > I'm not a moderator, but if I were, I wouldn't want to exercise
                                          > that level of decision-making in deciding what to let through.

                                          > The list itself usually decides such things by failing to respond
                                          > to items that are not of interest. :-)

                                          You don't see some of the stuff that we're offered. Do you need any
                                          nice girls from Russia this week?

                                          Ron Jeffries
                                          www.XProgramming.com
                                          I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
                                          will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
                                          I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
                                          Why pay now when we can pay later?
                                        • George Dinwiddie
                                          ... True. The link to agility is probably strong enough to allow the message. The tone of the message made me unaware of it until Ron raised the question.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Dec 2, 2006
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                                            Charlie Poole wrote:
                                            >> I think a short, personal description of the itch the product
                                            >> intends to scratch would be more appropriate to the list than
                                            >> this sort of brochure-ware.
                                            >
                                            > I'm not a moderator, but if I were, I wouldn't want to exercise
                                            > that level of decision-making in deciding what to let through.
                                            >
                                            > The list itself usually decides such things by failing to respond
                                            > to items that are not of interest. :-)

                                            True. The link to agility is probably strong enough to allow the
                                            message. The tone of the message made me unaware of it until Ron raised
                                            the question. I'd skipped past it without noticing. :-)


                                            --
                                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            * George Dinwiddie * gdinwiddie@...
                                            Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                            Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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