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You Get What You Tolerate

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  • Jay Flowers
    There are some people at my work that I continually find myself disagreeing with. Many times it seems that the root cause is our differing perspective on
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 27, 2006
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      There are some people at my work that I continually find myself disagreeing
      with. Many times it seems that the root cause is our differing perspective
      on where the bar should be. I think we have the bar set way too low. They
      think we have the bar set a little too high. I am interested in any
      literature on things like "You get what you tolerate". That is from
      Integrity: The Courage to Meet the Demands of Reality by Henry Cloud. I
      also think that people would engage more and be more creative if they were
      challenged.
      I really want to learn more about how lowering and raising the bar affect
      people and teams. If I understand it well I can probably find a way to act
      within my circle of influence.

      Thanks,
      --
      Jay Flowers
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      http://jayflowers.com
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Laurent Bossavit
      Jay, ... That sounds like something straight out of the McCarthys /Software For Your Head/, so if you haven t read that yet you might want to give it a try.
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 27, 2006
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        Jay,

        > I am interested in any literature on things like "You get what you
        > tolerate".

        That sounds like something straight out of the McCarthys' /Software
        For Your Head/, so if you haven't read that yet you might want to
        give it a try.

        Cheers,


        -[Laurent]-
        If a program is useless, it will have to be documented.
      • Phlip
        ... We had that situation this summer. Here s how it played out. Our lead programmer wants me and a colleague to plug a mega-library into our application, and
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 27, 2006
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          Jay Flowers wrote:

          > There are some people at my work that I continually find myself
          > disagreeing
          > with. Many times it seems that the root cause is our differing
          > perspective
          > on where the bar should be. I think we have the bar set way too low.
          > They
          > think we have the bar set a little too high.

          We had that situation this summer. Here's how it played out.

          Our lead programmer wants me and a colleague to plug a mega-library into our
          application, and use the library to solve one tiny little problem. That will
          set the stage for rolling more and more of our application into that
          library, and refactoring out large ugly chunks. This is a perfectly
          reasonable plan for an incremental rewrite.

          So my colleague insists on spending a lot of time tuning the build scripts
          for the mega-library, to get it to compile just right for our application.
          Those scripts are disgustingly hard to integrate with our existing system.
          Both sides abuse the Makefile format instead of using a modern alternative.

          Each "test" of each edit requires 5 to 30 minutes of a partial or total
          rebuild of this huge library. My colleague spends quite a lot of time on
          this effort.

          So my colleague sets the quality bar a little too high. I keep suggesting
          that we write a peesashit brainless monolithic build script that will just
          compile one module of the library, the one we need. Then we will use that
          module as soon as possible. Then we will relax and refine everything _after_
          establishing a hook into our actual system. And _concurrent_ with rolling
          more features into the library.

          (The principle here is simple: The longer our project runs without hooking
          into the real production code, the more risk we generate.)

          Then our lead programmer quits, for no other reason than to go work on fresh
          code. His boss downsizes our "rewrite" project, under the banner "ain't
          broke don't fix it", and he instantly releases all contractors. Oh, then he
          puts on "probation" the hirelings who are still agitating for a re-write.
          They have since given notice. "Probation" is a modern code-word for "please
          save us the expense of firing you".

          So, yes, conflicting bar elevations are a major problem in our industry...

          --
          Phlip
          http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
        • Ron Jeffries
          Hello, Jay. While I m in range of the Internet, please allow me to ... I m quite sure that if the bar is set to where people are sure they ll fail, many will
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 28, 2006
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            Hello, Jay. While I'm in range of the Internet, please allow me to
            comment. On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 10:01:12 PM, you wrote:

            > There are some people at my work that I continually find myself disagreeing
            > with. Many times it seems that the root cause is our differing perspective
            > on where the bar should be. I think we have the bar set way too low. They
            > think we have the bar set a little too high. I am interested in any
            > literature on things like "You get what you tolerate". That is from
            > Integrity: The Courage to Meet the Demands of Reality by Henry Cloud. I
            > also think that people would engage more and be more creative if they were
            > challenged.
            > I really want to learn more about how lowering and raising the bar affect
            > people and teams. If I understand it well I can probably find a way to act
            > within my circle of influence.

            I'm quite sure that if the bar is set to where people are sure
            they'll fail, many will be demotivated thereby. In situations where
            the bar is set somewhere, and any result less than the bar is
            treated as failure, people will often think the bar is too high, and
            be demotivated.

            When we think of the bar not as a goal that must be attained, but as
            a symbol of what might be possible, we can look at even an
            unattainable goal as a challenge rather than as an opportunity for
            (yet another) failure.

            So it seems to me that a person's innate optimism level, plus their
            history, plus the current handling of failures to leap the bar, all
            play into people's reactions.

            Advice? None at this time. Just exploring the forces.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
            will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
            I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
            Why pay now when we can pay later?
          • Jay Flowers
            Ron, I think you might like this article: Optimism: The Hidden Asset http://www.6seconds.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=250 ... -- Jay Flowers ...
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 28, 2006
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              Ron,
              I think you might like this article:
              Optimism: The Hidden Asset
              http://www.6seconds.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=250

              On 11/28/06, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello, Jay. While I'm in range of the Internet, please allow me to
              > comment. On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 10:01:12 PM, you wrote:
              >
              > > There are some people at my work that I continually find myself
              > disagreeing
              > > with. Many times it seems that the root cause is our differing
              > perspective
              > > on where the bar should be. I think we have the bar set way too
              > low. They
              > > think we have the bar set a little too high. I am interested in any
              > > literature on things like "You get what you tolerate". That is from
              > > Integrity: The Courage to Meet the Demands of Reality by Henry Cloud. I
              > > also think that people would engage more and be more creative if they
              > were
              > > challenged.
              > > I really want to learn more about how lowering and raising the bar
              > affect
              > > people and teams. If I understand it well I can probably find a way to
              > act
              > > within my circle of influence.
              >
              > I'm quite sure that if the bar is set to where people are sure
              > they'll fail, many will be demotivated thereby. In situations where
              > the bar is set somewhere, and any result less than the bar is
              > treated as failure, people will often think the bar is too high, and
              > be demotivated.
              >
              > When we think of the bar not as a goal that must be attained, but as
              > a symbol of what might be possible, we can look at even an
              > unattainable goal as a challenge rather than as an opportunity for
              > (yet another) failure.
              >
              > So it seems to me that a person's innate optimism level, plus their
              > history, plus the current handling of failures to leap the bar, all
              > play into people's reactions.
              >
              > Advice? None at this time. Just exploring the forces.
              >
              > Ron Jeffries
              > www.XProgramming.com
              > I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
              > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
              > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
              > Why pay now when we can pay later?
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
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              >
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              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              Jay Flowers
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              http://jayflowers.com
              ---------------------------------------------------------------------


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ron Jeffries
              Hello, Jay. Thanks ... I ll check it out if this haywire internet through cell phone connection holds up ... On Tuesday, November 28, ... Thanks again, Ron
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 28, 2006
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                Hello, Jay. Thanks ... I'll check it out if this haywire internet
                through cell phone connection holds up ... On Tuesday, November 28,
                2006, at 12:15:59 PM, you wrote:

                > I think you might like this article:
                > Optimism: The Hidden Asset
                > http://www.6seconds.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=250

                Thanks again,

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way. -- Jessica Rabbit
              • Adrian Sutton
                ... I suspect you re looking at the problem the wrong way. Instead of trying to get them to raise their expectations, simply work to make each iteration better
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 28, 2006
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                  On 28/11/2006, at 1:01 PM, Jay Flowers wrote:
                  > I really want to learn more about how lowering and raising the bar
                  > affect
                  > people and teams. If I understand it well I can probably find a
                  > way to act
                  > within my circle of influence.

                  I suspect you're looking at the problem the wrong way. Instead of
                  trying to get them to raise their expectations, simply work to make
                  each iteration better than the one before it. You don't know what the
                  quality/flexibility/velocity/whatever requirements on your
                  development team will be in a years time, so don't worry about
                  setting targets for it right now. Instead, take advantage of the
                  iterations in XP to gain feedback about where the bar is now, where
                  your customers, team mates and the business expect it to be and most
                  importantly, where it could possibly go to. Focus on iteration
                  retrospectives - what went well in this iteration, what could we
                  improve. Then pick one (and just one) of the possible improvements
                  and do it for the next iteration. Hey presto - the bar has been raised.

                  The biggest advantage of improving this way is that it doesn't scare
                  people. The bar never feels out of reach - you're already sitting on
                  it, you've just decided it might be nice to reach out and grab that
                  shiny thing just above because hey, it's easy to reach and all of a
                  sudden you're sitting on a new bar. Once you've given people
                  confidence that they can improve gradually and without major
                  disruption and effort, you'll find that they start seeing more and
                  more ways they can improve and they'll just start doing it because
                  they feel in control. If you just set the bar at an arbitrary point
                  and tell them to get up there, they'll lose that control and start
                  working against you.

                  Regards,

                  Adrian Sutton
                  http://www.symphonious.net
                • George Dinwiddie
                  ... Who s setting the bar? You? A manager? The team culture? ... Interesting concept. I wonder if people might not be more creative and up for more
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 28, 2006
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                    Jay Flowers wrote:
                    > There are some people at my work that I continually find myself disagreeing
                    > with. Many times it seems that the root cause is our differing perspective
                    > on where the bar should be. I think we have the bar set way too low. They
                    > think we have the bar set a little too high.

                    Who's setting the bar? You? A manager? The team culture?

                    > I
                    > also think that people would engage more and be more creative if they were
                    > challenged.

                    Interesting concept. I wonder if people might not be more creative and
                    up for more challenges if they were engaged.

                    - George


                    --
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    * George Dinwiddie * gdinwiddie@...
                    Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                    Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  • Tony Byrne
                    Hello George, ... GD Interesting concept. I wonder if people might not be more creative and GD up for more challenges if they were engaged. I think the two
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 29, 2006
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                      Hello George,

                      >> also think that people would engage more and be more creative if they were
                      >> challenged.

                      GD> Interesting concept. I wonder if people might not be more creative and
                      GD> up for more challenges if they were engaged.

                      I think the two go hand-in-hand and that you are unlikely have much of
                      one without the other.

                      Regards,

                      Tony.

                      --
                      Tony Byrne
                    • johnsyntax
                      ... Forget these authors. They wouldn t last 5 minutes with my roommate. We can tolerate a lot of annoyances, as long as the person is basically competent
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 29, 2006
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                        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Flowers"
                        <jay.flowers@...> wrote:
                        > I am interested in any
                        > literature on things like "You get what you tolerate". That is from
                        > Integrity: The Courage to Meet the Demands of Reality by Henry Cloud.

                        Forget these authors. They wouldn't last 5 minutes with my roommate.

                        We can tolerate a lot of annoyances, as long as the person is
                        basically competent and can solve problems. Without that, the
                        personal annoyances start to wear on you. I can tolerate a lot as
                        long as that person gets a brilliant idea once and a while.

                        > I
                        > also think that people would engage more and be more creative if
                        they were
                        > challenged.

                        No. It's purely a matter of willingness. This isn't rocket science
                        we're doing. It just takes getting off your butt and facing the
                        problems. Face it--they are worse than useless turds most of the
                        time, who regularly put feeding their piehole ahead of caring for
                        their wife and kids.

                        > I really want to learn more about how lowering and raising the bar
                        affect
                        > people and teams. If I understand it well I can probably find a way
                        to act
                        > within my circle of influence.
                        >

                        FWIW, here is my bar settings, criteria for interview:

                        1) can chew with mouth closed
                        2) has solved a problem recently and can describe it
                        3) can describe an approach to a problem posed during the interview

                        That's it.

                        If I'd have had that filter in place during the last hiring phase I
                        wouldn't need the Mindfulness Training now let me tell you...
                      • David H
                        ... Because you want to. Because it means something to you beyond business gains. That is a matter of the right environment, but that is exactly what we need
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 29, 2006
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                          Sammy Larbi wrote:

                          > johnsyntax wrote, On 11/29/2006 9:28 AM:
                          >>> I
                          >>> also think that people would engage more and be more creative if
                          >>>
                          >> they were
                          >>
                          >>> challenged.
                          >>>
                          >> No. It's purely a matter of willingness.
                          > That may be true, in that we can will ourselves to do a good job, but,
                          > I've noticed a trend in a lot of people, and sometimes this includes
                          > myself, that in general, people will give you what you expect. Why
                          > expend the extra effort to (train enough and perform well to) jump 7
                          > 1/2 feet, when only 4 is expected of you?
                          >

                          Because you want to. Because it means something to you beyond business
                          gains. That is a matter of the right environment, but that is exactly
                          what we need to learn doing. Creating an environment where that is the case.

                          I love my job. I want to jump 7 and 1/2 feet when only four are asked
                          and once I jumped 7 and a 1/2 I want to put 2 feet on top.

                          -d
                        • Sammy Larbi
                          ... That may be true, in that we can will ourselves to do a good job, but, I ve noticed a trend in a lot of people, and sometimes this includes myself, that in
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 29, 2006
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                            johnsyntax wrote, On 11/29/2006 9:28 AM:
                            >> I
                            >> also think that people would engage more and be more creative if
                            >>
                            > they were
                            >
                            >> challenged.
                            >>
                            >
                            > No. It's purely a matter of willingness.
                            That may be true, in that we can will ourselves to do a good job, but,
                            I've noticed a trend in a lot of people, and sometimes this includes
                            myself, that in general, people will give you what you expect. Why
                            expend the extra effort to (train enough and perform well to) jump 7
                            1/2 feet, when only 4 is expected of you?

                            > This isn't rocket science
                            > we're doing.
                            Well, most of us anyway.

                            > It just takes getting off your butt and facing the
                            > problems.
                            That's true - but I think a challenge can certainly help motivate one to
                            overcome his inherent laziness, to get up and face those problems.

                            -Sam
                          • banshee858
                            ... IME, most of the people I have encountered cannot tell the difference between 4 feet and 7 and a 1/2 feet. At some point, you ask yourself why even try
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 29, 2006
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                              >
                              > > That may be true, in that we can will ourselves to do a good job,
                              > > but, I've noticed a trend in a lot of people, and sometimes this
                              > > includes myself, that in general, people will give you what you
                              > > expect. Why expend the extra effort to (train enough and perform
                              > > well to) jump 7 1/2 feet, when only 4 is expected of you?
                              > >
                              >
                              > Because you want to. Because it means something to you beyond
                              > business gains. That is a matter of the right environment, but that
                              > is exactly what we need to learn doing. Creating an environment
                              > where that is the case.
                              >
                              > I love my job. I want to jump 7 and 1/2 feet when only four are
                              > asked and once I jumped 7 and a 1/2 I want to put 2 feet on top.
                              >
                              IME, most of the people I have encountered cannot tell the difference
                              between 4 feet and 7 and a 1/2 feet. At some point, you ask yourself
                              why even try when no one can recognize the difference between 4, 7 and
                              1/2 or 9 feet. If it all looks the same, then why should I strive for
                              7 and 1/2 feet and get the same reward and recognition as someone who
                              only achieves 4 feet?

                              Carlton
                            • David H
                              ... Very interesting. To me that sounds a bit as if they had to give up their beliefs and dreams very often. Because I can always tell how far I jumped. I can
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 29, 2006
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                                banshee858 wrote:

                                >>> That may be true, in that we can will ourselves to do a good job,
                                >>> but, I've noticed a trend in a lot of people, and sometimes this
                                >>> includes myself, that in general, people will give you what you
                                >>> expect. Why expend the extra effort to (train enough and perform
                                >>> well to) jump 7 1/2 feet, when only 4 is expected of you?
                                >>>
                                >> Because you want to. Because it means something to you beyond
                                >> business gains. That is a matter of the right environment, but that
                                >> is exactly what we need to learn doing. Creating an environment
                                >> where that is the case.
                                >>
                                >> I love my job. I want to jump 7 and 1/2 feet when only four are
                                >> asked and once I jumped 7 and a 1/2 I want to put 2 feet on top.
                                >>
                                > IME, most of the people I have encountered cannot tell the difference
                                > between 4 feet and 7 and a 1/2 feet. At some point, you ask yourself
                                > why even try when no one can recognize the difference between 4, 7 and
                                > 1/2 or 9 feet. If it all looks the same, then why should I strive for
                                > 7 and 1/2 feet and get the same reward and recognition as someone who
                                > only achieves 4 feet?
                                >

                                Very interesting. To me that sounds a bit as if they had to give up
                                their beliefs and dreams very often. Because I can always tell how far I
                                jumped. I can always tell how hard I tried. The main point being (I
                                guess), is that I do what I do for myself. Not because I want
                                recognition or rewards. That is also why I am always very much against
                                Bonus systems when an employer offers them to me.
                                I will always give my best, I do not need and Bonus incentive for that

                                -d

                                > Carlton
                                >
                                >
                              • Kent Beck
                                Phlip, Thank you for the clear example. It makes a good point, which is that the problem is not that our bar is virtuously high and their bar is too low.
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 29, 2006
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                                  Phlip,

                                  Thank you for the clear example. It makes a good point, which is that the
                                  problem is not that "our" bar is virtuously high and "their" bar is too low.
                                  Sometimes the engineering solution is to ignore aesthetics and get the job
                                  done. The problem is that we are collectively terrible at civil conflict
                                  resolution. The conflicts are inevitable, it's how we resolve them that
                                  matters. Sniffing that others' standards are too low or that they "should"
                                  want to be challenged shows disrespect. Learning to discuss the options and
                                  then agree on a way forward is a valuable skill, especially if you can get
                                  good at "disagree and proceed" after productive conversation.

                                  Regards,

                                  Kent Beck
                                  Three Rivers Institute


                                  _____

                                  From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phlip
                                  Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 11:28 PM
                                  To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [XP] You Get What You Tolerate



                                  Jay Flowers wrote:

                                  > There are some people at my work that I continually find myself
                                  > disagreeing
                                  > with. Many times it seems that the root cause is our differing
                                  > perspective
                                  > on where the bar should be. I think we have the bar set way too low.
                                  > They
                                  > think we have the bar set a little too high.

                                  We had that situation this summer. Here's how it played out.

                                  ...


                                  So, yes, conflicting bar elevations are a major problem in our industry...

                                  --
                                  Phlip
                                  http://www.greenche <http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand> ese.us/ZeekLand <--
                                  NOT a blog!!!







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David H
                                  ... Thank you for saying that I can only agree with you :) Most engineers seem to lack social skills, at least the ones I have met and worked with (which makes
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 29, 2006
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                                    Kent Beck wrote:

                                    > Phlip,
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for the clear example. It makes a good point, which is that the
                                    > problem is not that "our" bar is virtuously high and "their" bar is too low.
                                    > Sometimes the engineering solution is to ignore aesthetics and get the job
                                    > done. The problem is that we are collectively terrible at civil conflict
                                    > resolution. The conflicts are inevitable, it's how we resolve them that
                                    > matters. Sniffing that others' standards are too low or that they "should"
                                    > want to be challenged shows disrespect. Learning to discuss the options and
                                    > then agree on a way forward is a valuable skill, especially if you can get
                                    > good at "disagree and proceed" after productive conversation.
                                    >

                                    Thank you for saying that I can only agree with you :)
                                    Most engineers seem to lack social skills, at least the ones I have met
                                    and worked with (which makes them no less lovable chaps)

                                    -d
                                  • Phlip
                                    ... Yep. People who don t instantly do what I m politely suggesting they should do lack social skills. ;-) -- Phlip http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 29, 2006
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                                      David H wrote:

                                      > Thank you for saying that I can only agree with you :)
                                      > Most engineers seem to lack social skills, at least the ones I have met
                                      > and worked with (which makes them no less lovable chaps)

                                      Yep. People who don't instantly do what I'm politely suggesting they should
                                      do lack social skills.

                                      ;-)

                                      --
                                      Phlip
                                      http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
                                    • Sammy Larbi
                                      ... David, I understand this. I think most of us here understand this, and feel the same way - we do want extend our limits and consistently grow. I was just
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 30, 2006
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                                        David H wrote, On 11/29/2006 12:34 PM:
                                        > Sammy Larbi wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >> johnsyntax wrote, On 11/29/2006 9:28 AM:
                                        >>
                                        >>>> I
                                        >>>> also think that people would engage more and be more creative if
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>> they were
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>> challenged.
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>> No. It's purely a matter of willingness.
                                        >>>
                                        >> That may be true, in that we can will ourselves to do a good job, but,
                                        >> I've noticed a trend in a lot of people, and sometimes this includes
                                        >> myself, that in general, people will give you what you expect. Why
                                        >> expend the extra effort to (train enough and perform well to) jump 7
                                        >> 1/2 feet, when only 4 is expected of you?
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        > Because you want to. Because it means something to you beyond business
                                        > gains. That is a matter of the right environment, but that is exactly
                                        > what we need to learn doing. Creating an environment where that is the case.
                                        >
                                        > I love my job. I want to jump 7 and 1/2 feet when only four are asked
                                        > and once I jumped 7 and a 1/2 I want to put 2 feet on top.
                                        >
                                        >

                                        David,

                                        I understand this. I think most of us here understand this, and feel
                                        the same way - we do want extend our limits and consistently grow. I
                                        was just pointing out that I've seen it be the case that at times,
                                        people need more to be expected of them to give you more.
                                      • Jay Flowers
                                        Hmm, I will back up a step or two. I feel that the team is only present in body, or very little heart and mind. I also feel that some of the problems that we
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 30, 2006
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                                          Hmm,
                                          I will back up a step or two. I feel that the team is only present in body,
                                          or very little heart and mind. I also feel that some of the problems that
                                          we face can only be solved with everyones hearts and minds. One way to get
                                          their hearts and minds is to show genuine interest in their well being.
                                          This can also be accomplished by getting there input into how to solve the
                                          problems or implement solutions. These I have read a lot about. Both
                                          require changes in our culture as we have traditionally been lead in a
                                          command style. I am working on this. I suspect there is also a relation
                                          between low expectations and hearts and minds. If I communicate through
                                          word and action that I think you are not capable of writing good code I
                                          should not be surprised when you don't write good code. If I have never
                                          show a commitment to helping you improve I should not be surprised when you
                                          don't improve. On the other hand if I demonstrate that I think you are
                                          capable of writing good code I bet you will write better code than in the
                                          previously described situation. I bet you would perform even better if I
                                          showed a commitment to your growth. I would not be surprised if the
                                          combination of higher expectations on you and a commitment to your growth
                                          cause you to give your heart and mind to the work. I would bet that you
                                          would be more engaged and challenged. I would even think that you would
                                          feel more content and happy.

                                          I was concerned by Kent's comment about disrespect. I hope that I have
                                          misunderstood it. Is what I have described disrespectful?

                                          Anyway I have noticed these things about myself. I don't think that I am
                                          that different from everyone else.
                                          Have you have similar or differing experiences? Do you know of any
                                          literature on this?

                                          Thanks,

                                          On 11/29/06, Kent Beck <kentb@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Phlip,
                                          >
                                          > Thank you for the clear example. It makes a good point, which is that the
                                          > problem is not that "our" bar is virtuously high and "their" bar is too
                                          > low.
                                          > Sometimes the engineering solution is to ignore aesthetics and get the job
                                          > done. The problem is that we are collectively terrible at civil conflict
                                          > resolution. The conflicts are inevitable, it's how we resolve them that
                                          > matters. Sniffing that others' standards are too low or that they "should"
                                          > want to be challenged shows disrespect. Learning to discuss the options
                                          > and
                                          > then agree on a way forward is a valuable skill, especially if you can get
                                          > good at "disagree and proceed" after productive conversation.
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          >
                                          > Kent Beck
                                          > Three Rivers Institute
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > _____
                                          >
                                          > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                          > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phlip
                                          > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 11:28 PM
                                          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [XP] You Get What You Tolerate
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Jay Flowers wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > There are some people at my work that I continually find myself
                                          > > disagreeing
                                          > > with. Many times it seems that the root cause is our differing
                                          > > perspective
                                          > > on where the bar should be. I think we have the bar set way too low.
                                          > > They
                                          > > think we have the bar set a little too high.
                                          >
                                          > We had that situation this summer. Here's how it played out.
                                          >
                                          > ...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > So, yes, conflicting bar elevations are a major problem in our industry...
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Phlip
                                          > http://www.greenche <http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand> ese.us/ZeekLand<--
                                          > NOT a blog!!!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                          >
                                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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                                          >
                                          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          --
                                          Jay Flowers
                                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          http://jayflowers.com
                                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • George Dinwiddie
                                          ... What you say has the ring of truth, but in many cases it seems that external expectations *don t* lead people to extend their limits. Instead, it often
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 1, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Sammy Larbi wrote:
                                            > David H wrote, On 11/29/2006 12:34 PM:
                                            >> I love my job. I want to jump 7 and 1/2 feet when only four are asked
                                            >> and once I jumped 7 and a 1/2 I want to put 2 feet on top.
                                            >
                                            > David,
                                            >
                                            > I understand this. I think most of us here understand this, and feel
                                            > the same way - we do want extend our limits and consistently grow. I
                                            > was just pointing out that I've seen it be the case that at times,
                                            > people need more to be expected of them to give you more.

                                            What you say has the ring of truth, but in many cases it seems that
                                            external expectations *don't* lead people to extend their limits.
                                            Instead, it often provokes them to dig in their heels and resist.

                                            I do think the results tend to be better when you really engage people,
                                            first. If you start from their current point of view, you've got a
                                            better chance of persuading them. Naomi Karten led a wonderful session
                                            on Building a Strong Foundation of Trust, Respect, and Understanding at
                                            AYE2006. One of the things that I took away from that was the need to
                                            listen--really listen--and understand the other person's perspective.
                                            It's part of that "Individuals and Interactions" stuff.

                                            - George

                                            --
                                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            * George Dinwiddie * gdinwiddie@...
                                            Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                            Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          • Jay Flowers
                                            ... You are absolutely right George. That is the 5th habit of the 7 habits of highly effective people: Seek first to understand...Then to be understood.
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 1, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              On 12/1/06, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                                              > One of the things that I took away from that was the need to
                                              > listen--really listen--and understand the other person's perspective.
                                              > It's part of that "Individuals and Interactions" stuff.
                                              >

                                              You are absolutely right George. That is the 5th habit of the 7 habits of
                                              highly effective people: Seek first to understand...Then to be understood.
                                              Setting the bar high will only work in conjunction with empathy and a sense
                                              of team. Neither of which are gained through a command style of
                                              leadership. At least not that I have read about or seen modeled.

                                              --
                                              Jay Flowers
                                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              http://jayflowers.com
                                              ---------------------------------------------------------------------


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