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Why pay now when we can pay later?

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  • Victor
    ... will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than I am now, so I think it ll be just as easy later, maybe even easier. Why pay now when
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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      Ron Jeffries tag line says:

      > I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
      will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
      I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
      Why pay now when we can pay later?

      Somebody could argue:
      Why make the tests run now?
      Why refactor now?

      So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?

      Victor


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, Victor. On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 7:45:51 AM, you ... Victor: I m sorry that you feel confused. I m not sure how to help you out of this
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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        Hello, Victor. On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 7:45:51 AM, you
        wrote:

        > Ron Jeffries tag line says:

        >> I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
        > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
        > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
        > Why pay now when we can pay later?

        > Somebody could argue:
        > Why make the tests run now?
        > Why refactor now?

        > So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?

        Victor: I'm sorry that you feel confused. I'm not sure how to help
        you out of this confusion. Can you think of answers to the questions
        you ask above? Can you make a list for yourself of the things to
        which that tag line seems to apply, and the things for which it may
        not?

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra
        (Random, but seems apt.)
      • Victor
        ... you ask above? Hey Ron, you are asking for too much so early in the morning. :-) Victor ... From: Ron Jeffries To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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          > Can you think of answers to the questions
          you ask above?

          Hey Ron, you are asking for too much so early in the morning. :-)

          Victor

          ==================================

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Ron Jeffries
          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 8:10 AM
          Subject: Re: [XP] Why pay now when we can pay later?


          Hello, Victor. On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 7:45:51 AM, you
          wrote:

          > Ron Jeffries tag line says:

          >> I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
          > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
          > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
          > Why pay now when we can pay later?

          > Somebody could argue:
          > Why make the tests run now?
          > Why refactor now?

          > So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?

          Victor: I'm sorry that you feel confused. I'm not sure how to help
          you out of this confusion. Can you think of answers to the questions
          you ask above? Can you make a list for yourself of the things to
          which that tag line seems to apply, and the things for which it may
          not?

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra
          (Random, but seems apt.)





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
          From: Victor To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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            From: "Victor" <vmgoldberg.at.verizon.net@...>
            To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
            <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
            Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:45 AM
            Subject: [XP] Why pay now when we can pay later?


            > Ron Jeffries tag line says:
            >
            >> I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
            > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
            > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
            > Why pay now when we can pay later?
            >
            > Somebody could argue:
            > Why make the tests run now?
            > Why refactor now?
            >
            > So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?

            They could argue that, but the answer could be enlightening.
            It's simple economics. What's the cost and the risk involved
            in doing it now or later?

            In the case of code, doing it now rather than later has
            defered opportunity costs (you aren't doing something else)
            and the risk of doing something with limited information.
            (You'll know more later).

            In the case of testing, the costs of defered testing go up
            superlinearly. The same is true of letting the design degrade
            by not refactoring. These are things that it's cheaper to do
            now rather than later.

            I presume that someone with the appropriate background
            could build reasonably simple econometric models that
            would show what happens under varying assumptions.

            John Roth
            >
            > Victor
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • Jared Richardson
            ... It depends on the interest rate for the item in question. The higher the interest rate, the more likely you should be to do it now. But if the interest
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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              On Oct 31, 2006, at 7:45 AM, Victor wrote:

              > Ron Jeffries tag line says:
              >
              > > I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
              > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
              > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
              > Why pay now when we can pay later?
              >
              > Somebody could argue:
              > Why make the tests run now?
              > Why refactor now?
              >
              > So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?

              It depends on the interest rate for the item in question. The higher
              the interest rate, the more likely you should be to do it now. But if
              the interest rate is low enough, you can push it back. ;)

              Jared
              http://jaredrichardson.net



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Victor
              Hey John, You are preaching to the converted. I tried to be humoristic, obviously with not much success. Yet, I still had a point. The point being that we
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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                Hey John,

                You are preaching to the converted. I tried to be humoristic, obviously with not much success. Yet, I still had a point.

                The point being that we have to be careful with statements which when taken out of context may be interpreted or used in a misleading way. Usually, the purpose of tag lines is to convey a clear thought in a compact way. That specific tag line Ron used needs some improvement, in my opinion.

                Victor

                =================================

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: yahoogroups@...
                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:15 AM
                Subject: Re: [XP] Why pay now when we can pay later?


                From: "Victor" <vmgoldberg.at.verizon.net@...>
                To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
                <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
                Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:45 AM
                Subject: [XP] Why pay now when we can pay later?

                > Ron Jeffries tag line says:
                >
                >> I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
                > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
                > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
                > Why pay now when we can pay later?
                >
                > Somebody could argue:
                > Why make the tests run now?
                > Why refactor now?
                >
                > So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?

                They could argue that, but the answer could be enlightening.
                It's simple economics. What's the cost and the risk involved
                in doing it now or later?

                In the case of code, doing it now rather than later has
                defered opportunity costs (you aren't doing something else)
                and the risk of doing something with limited information.
                (You'll know more later).

                In the case of testing, the costs of defered testing go up
                superlinearly. The same is true of letting the design degrade
                by not refactoring. These are things that it's cheaper to do
                now rather than later.

                I presume that someone with the appropriate background
                could build reasonably simple econometric models that
                would show what happens under varying assumptions.

                John Roth
                >
                > Victor
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
                From: Victor To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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                  From: "Victor" <vmgoldberg.at.verizon.net@...>
                  To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
                  <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:04 AM
                  Subject: Re: [XP] Why pay now when we can pay later?


                  > Hey John,
                  >
                  > You are preaching to the converted. I tried to be humoristic, obviously
                  > with not much success. Yet, I still had a point.
                  >
                  > The point being that we have to be careful with statements which when
                  > taken out of context may be interpreted or used in a misleading way.
                  > Usually, the purpose of tag lines is to convey a clear thought in a
                  > compact way. That specific tag line Ron used needs some improvement, in
                  > my opinion.

                  I tend to be a bit literal. However, I also had a
                  point, which is that the tradeoffs could be
                  described in a very simple model, probably
                  using a spreadsheet, and that such a model
                  would be convincing (or at least interesting)
                  to a certain group of people.

                  John Roth
                  >
                  > Victor
                  >
                  > =================================
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: yahoogroups@...
                  > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:15 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [XP] Why pay now when we can pay later?
                  >
                  >
                  > From: "Victor" <vmgoldberg.at.verizon.net@...>
                  > To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
                  > <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:45 AM
                  > Subject: [XP] Why pay now when we can pay later?
                  >
                  > > Ron Jeffries tag line says:
                  > >
                  > >> I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
                  > > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
                  > > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
                  > > Why pay now when we can pay later?
                  > >
                  > > Somebody could argue:
                  > > Why make the tests run now?
                  > > Why refactor now?
                  > >
                  > > So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?
                  >
                  > They could argue that, but the answer could be enlightening.
                  > It's simple economics. What's the cost and the risk involved
                  > in doing it now or later?
                  >
                  > In the case of code, doing it now rather than later has
                  > defered opportunity costs (you aren't doing something else)
                  > and the risk of doing something with limited information.
                  > (You'll know more later).
                  >
                  > In the case of testing, the costs of defered testing go up
                  > superlinearly. The same is true of letting the design degrade
                  > by not refactoring. These are things that it's cheaper to do
                  > now rather than later.
                  >
                  > I presume that someone with the appropriate background
                  > could build reasonably simple econometric models that
                  > would show what happens under varying assumptions.
                  >
                  > John Roth
                  > >
                  > > Victor
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Ron Jeffries
                  Hello, Victor. On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 12:04:12 PM, you ... Perhaps that s not the purpose of my tag lines. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com But the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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                    Hello, Victor. On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 12:04:12 PM, you
                    wrote:

                    > Usually, the purpose of tag lines is to convey a clear thought in a compact way.
                    > That specific tag line Ron used needs some improvement, in my opinion.

                    Perhaps that's not the purpose of my tag lines.

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    But the attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to
                    truth, whatever it might turn out to be. -- Alan Watts
                  • Carfield Yim
                    For me the simplest reason is you probably forget if you don t do now, because you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay it you
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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                      For me the
                      simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
                      you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
                      it you will never have time to pick it up again.


                      On 10/31/06, Victor <vmgoldberg@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Ron Jeffries tag line says:
                      >
                      > > I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
                      > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
                      > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
                      > Why pay now when we can pay later?
                      >
                      > Somebody could argue:
                      > Why make the tests run now?
                      > Why refactor now?
                      >
                      > So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?
                      >
                      > Victor
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      Hello, Carfield. On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 10:23:58 PM, you ... So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important thing, because we might
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 31, 2006
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                        Hello, Carfield. On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 10:23:58 PM, you
                        wrote:

                        > For me the
                        > simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
                        > you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
                        > it you will never have time to pick it up again.

                        So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
                        thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled,
                        the humiliating question arises, "Why then are you not taking part in
                        them?" -- H. G. Wells
                      • Carfield Yim
                        ... In fact what I mean is we should do the most important thing otherwise we will forget, am my English is too bad to present this?
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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                          > Hello, Carfield. On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 10:23:58 PM, you
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > > For me the
                          > > simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
                          > > you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
                          > > it you will never have time to pick it up again.
                          >
                          > So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
                          > thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?
                          >
                          In fact what I mean is we should do the most important thing otherwise
                          we will forget, am my English is too bad to present this?
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          Hello, Carfield. On Wednesday, November 1, 2006, at 3:40:17 AM, ... I m not sure what the cause is, but I m really not understanding your point vis-a-vis my
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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                            Hello, Carfield. On Wednesday, November 1, 2006, at 3:40:17 AM,
                            you wrote:

                            >> Hello, Carfield. On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 10:23:58 PM, you
                            >> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> > For me the
                            >> > simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
                            >> > you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
                            >> > it you will never have time to pick it up again.
                            >>
                            >> So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
                            >> thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?
                            >>
                            > In fact what I mean is we should do the most important thing otherwise
                            > we will forget, am my English is too bad to present this?

                            I'm not sure what the cause is, but I'm really not understanding
                            your point vis-a-vis my signature line that Victor quoted ...

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
                            will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
                            I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
                            Why pay now when we can pay later?
                          • Carfield Yim
                            ... In fact may be I understand the question wrong at the beginning, what I understand the question is If there we can refactoring or unit test later, why we
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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                              > >> > For me the
                              > >> > simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
                              > >> > you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
                              > >> > it you will never have time to pick it up again.
                              > >>
                              > >> So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
                              > >> thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?
                              > >>
                              > > In fact what I mean is we should do the most important thing otherwise
                              > > we will forget, am my English is too bad to present this?
                              >
                              > I'm not sure what the cause is, but I'm really not understanding
                              > your point vis-a-vis my signature line that Victor quoted ...
                              >

                              In fact may be I understand the question wrong at the beginning, what
                              I understand the question is "If there we can refactoring or unit test
                              later, why we do this now? May be put more effort to make my code
                              work" . In my working environment, some of my coworker actually doing
                              that, however, the result is they haven't write single unit test
                              before they change their job.

                              So what my immediate feedback of the question is, if you don't put
                              these task is an important priority and do this first, then you will
                              never have time to do that, once you finish the current task and like
                              to move on to write unit test, the other task will come and the code
                              missing unit test accumulate and you will not bother to touch that
                              eventaully.

                              May be I try to abstract the above but present it in an incorrect
                              sentense? Or may be this is English problem? Anyway I need to practice
                              more about English writing
                            • Victor
                              ... I support that. Don t be deterred by the difficulties. Just keep communicating. Victor ... From: Carfield Yim To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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                                > Anyway I need to practice more about English writing

                                I support that. Don't be deterred by the difficulties. Just keep communicating.

                                Victor

                                ===============================================



                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Carfield Yim
                                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 9:28 AM
                                Subject: Re: [XP] Why pay now when we can pay later?


                                > >> > For me the
                                > >> > simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
                                > >> > you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
                                > >> > it you will never have time to pick it up again.
                                > >>
                                > >> So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
                                > >> thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?
                                > >>
                                > > In fact what I mean is we should do the most important thing otherwise
                                > > we will forget, am my English is too bad to present this?
                                >
                                > I'm not sure what the cause is, but I'm really not understanding
                                > your point vis-a-vis my signature line that Victor quoted ...
                                >

                                In fact may be I understand the question wrong at the beginning, what
                                I understand the question is "If there we can refactoring or unit test
                                later, why we do this now? May be put more effort to make my code
                                work" . In my working environment, some of my coworker actually doing
                                that, however, the result is they haven't write single unit test
                                before they change their job.

                                So what my immediate feedback of the question is, if you don't put
                                these task is an important priority and do this first, then you will
                                never have time to do that, once you finish the current task and like
                                to move on to write unit test, the other task will come and the code
                                missing unit test accumulate and you will not bother to touch that
                                eventaully.

                                May be I try to abstract the above but present it in an incorrect
                                sentense? Or may be this is English problem? Anyway I need to practice
                                more about English writing




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • geoffrey_slinker
                                ... I know that Victor understand the saying why pay now when we can pay later . For those that are new or are lurking that doesn t understand this agilism I
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 1, 2006
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                                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, yahoogroups@... wrote:
                                  I know that Victor understand the saying "why pay now when we can pay
                                  later".

                                  For those that are new or are lurking that doesn't understand this
                                  agilism I think John describes it very well.

                                  >
                                  > In the case of code, doing it now rather than later has
                                  > defered opportunity costs (you aren't doing something else)
                                  > and the risk of doing something with limited information.
                                  > (You'll know more later).

                                  There is another agilism that is relevant. YAGNI. You ain't gonna need
                                  it. It has to do with feature creep, gold plating, etc.

                                  Often developers will add functionality because the anticipate it will
                                  be useful. Don't "pay" for software until it is needed.

                                  I have fallen into the gold plating trap before. I remember when
                                  writing some service libraries I would try to supply a method for
                                  every conceivable set of parameters.

                                  void UpdatePersonRecord(PersonRecord person)
                                  void UpdatePersonRecord(string firstName, string lastName, string
                                  recordInfo)
                                  void UpdatePersonRecord(int personId, string recordInfo)

                                  I thought I was being thorough. Instead I made some unnecessary
                                  wrappers and wasted time.

                                  If the additional interfaces would have been added when they were
                                  needed it would have been easy to do so.

                                  >
                                  > In the case of testing, the costs of defered testing go up
                                  > superlinearly. The same is true of letting the design degrade
                                  > by not refactoring. These are things that it's cheaper to do
                                  > now rather than later.

                                  Sometimes referred to as Code Debt.

                                  Thanks John.


                                  Geoff Slinker
                                  http://digerati-illuminatus.blogspot.com/
                                • J. B. Rainsberger
                                  ... I know this is obvious, but whenever there is a tradeoff between paying less now for less return and more later for more return, I ignore profit and only
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Nov 2, 2006
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                                    Victor wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Ron Jeffries tag line says:
                                    >
                                    > > I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
                                    > will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
                                    > I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
                                    > Why pay now when we can pay later?
                                    >
                                    > Somebody could argue:
                                    > Why make the tests run now?
                                    > Why refactor now?
                                    >
                                    > So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?

                                    I know this is obvious, but whenever there is a tradeoff between paying
                                    less now for less return and more later for more return, I ignore profit
                                    and only consider cashflow. If I have enough cash to get me from now to
                                    then, I /always/ pay more later for more return. So what's cashflow for
                                    a software team? Some combination of time-until-a-release and customer
                                    confidence/trust, I guess. Anything else? Anything better?
                                    --
                                    J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: http://www.jbrains.ca
                                    Your guide to software craftsmanship
                                    JUnit Recipes: Practical Methods for Programmer Testing
                                    2005 Gordon Pask Award for contribution Agile Software Practice
                                  • Ron Jeffries
                                    Hello, Carfield. On Wednesday, November 1, 2006, at 9:28:31 AM, ... Well, I took Victor s question to relate to the fact that a signature isn t an article. In
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Nov 2, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hello, Carfield. On Wednesday, November 1, 2006, at 9:28:31 AM,
                                      you wrote:

                                      > In fact may be I understand the question wrong at the beginning, what
                                      > I understand the question is "If there we can refactoring or unit test
                                      > later, why we do this now? May be put more effort to make my code
                                      > work" . In my working environment, some of my coworker actually doing
                                      > that, however, the result is they haven't write single unit test
                                      > before they change their job.

                                      Well, I took Victor's question to relate to the fact that a
                                      signature isn't an article.

                                      In any case, leaving testing or refactoring until later does make it
                                      cost more, so we should do it now. Building a feature that isn't
                                      going to be used costs more now and not later so we should do it
                                      later. In general, one might read the sig as inviting the thoughtful
                                      reader to think about the impact of doing something now, vs waiting
                                      until later, and to make the wisest decision she's capable of.

                                      > So what my immediate feedback of the question is, if you don't put
                                      > these task is an important priority and do this first, then you will
                                      > never have time to do that, once you finish the current task and like
                                      > to move on to write unit test, the other task will come and the code
                                      > missing unit test accumulate and you will not bother to touch that
                                      > eventaully.

                                      I think it depends on the task. Would you agree?

                                      Ron Jeffries
                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                      War remains the decisive human failure.
                                      -- John Kenneth Galbraith
                                    • Carfield Yim
                                      ... It will be hard to disagree. For me it sound something like what this article mentioned -
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Nov 2, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        > > So what my immediate feedback of the question is, if you don't put
                                        > > these task is an important priority and do this first, then you will
                                        > > never have time to do that, once you finish the current task and like
                                        > > to move on to write unit test, the other task will come and the code
                                        > > missing unit test accumulate and you will not bother to touch that
                                        > > eventaully.
                                        >
                                        > I think it depends on the task. Would you agree?
                                        >

                                        It will be hard to disagree. For me it sound something like what this
                                        article mentioned -
                                        http://www.jamesshore.com/Blog/CardMeeting/Voluntary-Technical-Debt.html
                                        . And I think many of developer try to work on this approach, but most
                                        of them fail to management the debt before they quit. Just like most
                                        people pay more debt than he like to pay for credit card expense. Of
                                        course, may be someone earn of lot from getting more debt and have
                                        clever investment, but I don't think I can. Thus I personally like to
                                        be more conservative have having debt, In finance and also
                                        development. And I like to work with conservative people also.

                                        In fact, I have email Victor privately and know that I miss something
                                        at the original question.
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