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[XP] Re: Hatred of index cards

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  • Dave Churchville
    ... Hmmm....I guess that s a good argument for not putting too much information on a story card. I can t imagine forgetting a major, critical story, but it can
    Message 1 of 41 , May 2, 2006
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      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
      <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
      > A year or so into the C3 project, a manager became concerned that we
      > would lose cards. Our first argument was that if we lost a card, and
      > no one could remember it, it couldn't really be very important.

      Hmmm....I guess that's a good argument for not putting too much
      information on a story card.

      I can't imagine forgetting a major, critical story, but it can imagine
      forgetting the results of a conversation that were scribbled as notes
      on the back of the card (acceptance criteria).

      Actually, I used a large whiteboard for tracking things once, but I
      was so paranoid about someone erasing it that I wound up transcribing
      it anyway. No one ever erased it.

      Ah, fear, uncertainty, and doubt - where would we be without them?

      --Dave
      http://www.extremeplanner.com/blog
    • Kent Beck
      Anthony, I don t know what the outcome of the conversation would be. It just seems to me that the conversation as you reported it isn t about cards on a wall
      Message 41 of 41 , May 5, 2006
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        Anthony,

        I don't know what the outcome of the conversation would be. It just seems to
        me that the conversation as you reported it isn't about cards on a wall or
        not, so continuing to talk about cards on a wall is unproductive. Addressing
        her fears of programmer incompetence (might lose cards, would have
        duplicates, couldn't keep track of them) could be approached from several
        fronts, keeping track of your stories and doing what you said you would do
        could be part of the solution. You might decide that cards on a wall would
        be fine with a weekly email summary, or that a tool would be best for now,
        or...

        I guess all that adds up to "yes, the conversation would be one where trust
        is built" whatever the outcome. For a conversation to have a chance to build
        trust I have to listen to what the other person is saying and say what I
        really think.

        Sincerely yours,

        Kent Beck
        Three Rivers Institute

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > Anthony Kaufman
        > Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:33 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Hatred of index cards
        >
        > Hi Kent,
        >
        > Just to make sure I understand, this conversation might not
        > be one in which
        > we agreed to start trying note cards, but instead, be one
        > where trust is
        > built for the benefit of both parties in times to come?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Anthony
        >
        > On 5/3/06, Kent Beck <kentb@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Anthony,
        > >
        > > The "arguments" you describe sound more like a request for
        > some empathy
        > > than
        > > the beginnings of a formal debate. In my right mind, I would try to
        > > respond
        > > with empathy.
        > >
        > > Cheers,
        > >
        > > Kent Beck
        > > Three Rivers Institute
        > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > > > Anthony Kaufman
        > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 8:26 AM
        > > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Hatred of index cards
        > > >
        > > > I once suggested using index cards rather than some
        > > > ImplementedHere task
        > > > software that no one was using. The reply by my manager was,
        > > > "That sounds
        > > > like a nightmare, people will lose the cards, we'll have
        > > > duplicate stories
        > > > on 2, 3, 4 different cards, etc." I wasn't sure what to say
        > > > to her as I'd
        > > > never actually tried stories on index cards myself. Any
        > > > rebuttals to this
        > > > argument?
        > > >
        > > > Anthony
        > > >
        > > > On 5/2/06, yahoogroups@...
        > <yahoogroups@...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > From: "Tim Dugan"
        > <tdugan.at.prosrm.com@...>
        > > > > To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
        > > > >
        > <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
        > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 6:23 AM
        > > > > Subject: RE: [XP] Re: Hatred of index cards
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > Does anyone remember an Apple Macintosh application
        > > > called HyperCard?
        > > > >
        > > > > Yup.
        > > > >
        > > > > > It was essentially hyperlinked index cards.
        > > > >
        > > > > It was a great deal more than that. It was an early GUI
        > > > > builder with an "almost English" scripting language.
        > > > >
        > > > > > (Does the same kind of > application still exist?)
        > > > >
        > > > > Someone was trying to build a version in Python recently
        > > > > (Google on PyCard or PythonCard - forgot the name)
        > > > >
        > > > > > But it sounds like even that wouldn't have the tactile
        > > > advantage of
        > > > > > physical cards?
        > > > >
        > > > > It's a different niche. Physical cards are useful because
        > > > > they're easy to rearrange on a table, and they provide
        > > > > great conversation starters and group meditation items when
        > > > > posted on a wall.
        > > > >
        > > > > The whole thing is a representation problem. There are
        > > > > things you can do with a software tool, and there are
        > > > > things you can do with physical cards. Unfortunately,
        > > > > there isn't any current technology that manages to
        > > > > merge the two seamlessly.
        > > > >
        > > > > Some day when we get network enabled index cards
        > > > > that can do handwriting recognition...
        > > > >
        > > > > John Roth
        > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Tim Dugan, Technical Lead - O&D/RTDP
        > > > > > PROS Revenue Management
        > > > > > (713)335-7942, tdugan@...
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > > > > > jalmeter_99@...
        > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 7:16 AM
        > > > > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > Subject: [XP] Re: Hatred of index cards
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "David H." <dmalloc@...> writes:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >> >
        > > > > >> > 3) But we're a technology company!
        > > > > >> >
        > > > > >> "You do realise that the first programs where
        > stamped onto little
        > > > > >> 'cards', do you? So don't be stupid and give me this
        > technology
        > > > > > company
        > > > > >> bullshit"
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >> Yes, that is a one to one quote I once made :) It worked :)
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Is it possible to buy punch cards anywhere? Maybe we
        > > > should use those
        > > > > > instead of index cards.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --
        > > > > > Jason L. Almeter
        > > > > > jalmeter underscore 99 yahoo
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
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