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Re: [XP] Re: What do you call "Extreme Programming"?

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  • Jason Nocks
    ... ... Sounds like: “Seek to understand before you seek to be understood” - Dr. Stephen Covey. That s basically what I m working to get myself and
    Message 1 of 21 , May 1, 2006
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      On Friday 28 April 2006 10:49 am, William E Caputo wrote:
      > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Cory Foy <usergroup@...> wrote:
      > >but when referring to it as a
      > > whole, do most people just call XP an "agile methodology" or "a group of
      > > best software practices" or...?

      <snip>

      > What I finally (I'm slow sometimes) came to realize was that if I what
      > I wanted was a true definition for me then I could call it whatever I
      > wanted, but if what I wanted was to communicate with the person in
      > front of me, then I needed to base my description on what would allow
      > that person to hear me. So now just let each person I talk to choose
      > the correct term for me. The only catch is that this requires
      > listening before speaking, but I find this generally not detrimental
      > to me being heard so, I live with it.

      Sounds like: “Seek to understand before you seek to be understood” - Dr.
      Stephen Covey. That's basically what I'm working to get myself and the rest
      of my group to do more often. Alternatively, we also call it "no
      mind-reading".

      > BTW, when am talking to myself, I still call it Extreme Programming.
      >
      > Best,
      > Bill

      Cheers,
      Jason Nocks
    • Joseph Little
      Thanks! I take it that you are not in NC. Correct? Am looking for other folks in NC. Thanks, Joe
      Message 2 of 21 , May 1, 2006
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        Thanks!

        I take it that you are not in NC. Correct?

        Am looking for other folks in NC.

        Thanks, Joe


        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Julio Santos" <julio@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > > Others: Any thoughts on the best way to set that up?
        >
        > If you don't find anything, perhaps you want to start one here:
        > http://www.meetup.com/
        >
        > --
        > Julio
        >
      • Julio Santos
        ... Nope, other coast. I find meetup.com fairly active over here, maybe it will work for you too. Good luck though. -- Julio
        Message 3 of 21 , May 1, 2006
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          > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Julio Santos" <julio@...>
          > wrote:

          On 5/1/06, Joseph Little <jhlittle@...> wrote:
          > Thanks!
          >
          > I take it that you are not in NC. Correct?

          Nope, other coast. I find meetup.com fairly active over here, maybe it
          will work for you too. Good luck though.

          --
          Julio
        • Kent Beck
          I began using the phrase Responsible Development on a recent tour of workshops and I really like it. I find it helpful to ask myself, What would be the
          Message 4 of 21 , May 2, 2006
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            I began using the phrase "Responsible Development" on a recent tour of
            workshops and I really like it. I find it helpful to ask myself, "What would
            be the responsible thing to do now?" As an adjective, "responsible" doesn't
            have any of the zip and zing of "extreme", but I've grown leery of the kind
            of attention attracted by zippy and zingy words.

            Sincerely yours,

            Kent Beck
            Three Rivers Institute

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            > William E Caputo
            > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 7:49 AM
            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [XP] Re: What do you call "Extreme Programming"?
            >
            > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Cory Foy
            > <usergroup@...> wrote:
            > >but when referring to it as a
            > > whole, do most people just call XP an "agile methodology"
            > or "a group of
            > > best software practices" or...?
            >
            > For the better part of the past 7 years, on all different sorts of
            > projects, and clients, I looked for a good answer to this question. I
            > tried the pedantic approach where I explained what Extreme
            > Programming *really* meant; I used the rebranding approach where I
            > picked a name that sounded more respectable, or buzz-friendly (Agile,
            > dX, some practice from XP as a substitute for the whole, and ones I
            > made up on the spot all fit this category); I tried the zen approach
            > where I referred to it by not referring to it; I tried the subtractive
            > approach where I described what it wasn't. Sometimes I tried them all
            > together; other times I just sulked in the corner.
            >
            > What I finally (I'm slow sometimes) came to realize was that if I what
            > I wanted was a true definition for me then I could call it whatever I
            > wanted, but if what I wanted was to communicate with the person in
            > front of me, then I needed to base my description on what would allow
            > that person to hear me. So now just let each person I talk to choose
            > the correct term for me. The only catch is that this requires
            > listening before speaking, but I find this generally not detrimental
            > to me being heard so, I live with it.
            >
            > BTW, when am talking to myself, I still call it Extreme Programming.
            >
            > Best,
            > Bill
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Dave Churchville
            ... What would ... doesn t ... the kind ... Sounds like there s a story there (or maybe several hundred) ... A marketer would say that your phrase has to be
            Message 5 of 21 , May 2, 2006
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              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kent Beck" <kentb@...> wrote:
              >
              > I began using the phrase "Responsible Development" on a recent tour of
              > workshops and I really like it. I find it helpful to ask myself,
              "What would
              > be the responsible thing to do now?" As an adjective, "responsible"
              doesn't
              > have any of the zip and zing of "extreme", but I've grown leery of
              the kind
              > of attention attracted by zippy and zingy words.

              Sounds like there's a story there (or maybe several hundred) ...

              A marketer would say that your phrase has to be something both
              memorable and that communciates your positioning. XP, for better or
              worse, sounds like something revolutionary that is way on the edge of
              the mainstream. And that's exactly the impression that I've had to
              debunk continuously.

              Maybe a better phrase would have been "Business-Focused Development"
              or BFD (hmmm...that acronym is already being used). Or maybe
              "Adaptive Programming" (AP). I don't think Microsoft is using any of
              those as a product name, anyway ;-)


              --Dave
              http://www.extremeplanner.com/blog
            • Jim Hughes
              Feedback seems to be at the core of so much of XP, I like Feedback Driven Development. Jim
              Message 6 of 21 , May 2, 2006
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                Feedback seems to be at the core of so much of XP, I like Feedback
                Driven Development.

                Jim


                On May 2, 2006, at 4:49 PM, Dave Churchville wrote:

                > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kent Beck" <kentb@...>
                > wrote:
                >>
                >> I began using the phrase "Responsible Development" on a recent
                >> tour of
                >> workshops and I really like it. I find it helpful to ask myself,
                > "What would
                >> be the responsible thing to do now?" As an adjective, "responsible"
                > doesn't
                >> have any of the zip and zing of "extreme", but I've grown leery of
                > the kind
                >> of attention attracted by zippy and zingy words.
                >
                > Sounds like there's a story there (or maybe several hundred) ...
                >
                > A marketer would say that your phrase has to be something both
                > memorable and that communciates your positioning. XP, for better or
                > worse, sounds like something revolutionary that is way on the edge of
                > the mainstream. And that's exactly the impression that I've had to
                > debunk continuously.
                >
                > Maybe a better phrase would have been "Business-Focused Development"
                > or BFD (hmmm...that acronym is already being used). Or maybe
                > "Adaptive Programming" (AP). I don't think Microsoft is using any of
                > those as a product name, anyway ;-)
                >
                >
                > --Dave
                > http://www.extremeplanner.com/blog
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-
                > unsubscribe@...
                >
                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
                I love it. Trademark it, please. John Roth ... From: Kent Beck To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 21 , May 2, 2006
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                  I love it. Trademark it, please.

                  John Roth

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Kent Beck" <kentb.at.earthlink.net@...>
                  To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
                  <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 3:29 PM
                  Subject: RE: [XP] Re: What do you call "Extreme Programming"?


                  >I began using the phrase "Responsible Development" on a recent tour of
                  > workshops and I really like it. I find it helpful to ask myself, "What
                  > would
                  > be the responsible thing to do now?" As an adjective, "responsible"
                  > doesn't
                  > have any of the zip and zing of "extreme", but I've grown leery of the
                  > kind
                  > of attention attracted by zippy and zingy words.
                  >
                  > Sincerely yours,
                  >
                  > Kent Beck
                  > Three Rivers Institute
                  >
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  >> [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  >> William E Caputo
                  >> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 7:49 AM
                  >> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Subject: [XP] Re: What do you call "Extreme Programming"?
                  >>
                  >> --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Cory Foy
                  >> <usergroup@...> wrote:
                  >> >but when referring to it as a
                  >> > whole, do most people just call XP an "agile methodology"
                  >> or "a group of
                  >> > best software practices" or...?
                  >>
                  >> For the better part of the past 7 years, on all different sorts of
                  >> projects, and clients, I looked for a good answer to this question. I
                  >> tried the pedantic approach where I explained what Extreme
                  >> Programming *really* meant; I used the rebranding approach where I
                  >> picked a name that sounded more respectable, or buzz-friendly (Agile,
                  >> dX, some practice from XP as a substitute for the whole, and ones I
                  >> made up on the spot all fit this category); I tried the zen approach
                  >> where I referred to it by not referring to it; I tried the subtractive
                  >> approach where I described what it wasn't. Sometimes I tried them all
                  >> together; other times I just sulked in the corner.
                  >>
                  >> What I finally (I'm slow sometimes) came to realize was that if I what
                  >> I wanted was a true definition for me then I could call it whatever I
                  >> wanted, but if what I wanted was to communicate with the person in
                  >> front of me, then I needed to base my description on what would allow
                  >> that person to hear me. So now just let each person I talk to choose
                  >> the correct term for me. The only catch is that this requires
                  >> listening before speaking, but I find this generally not detrimental
                  >> to me being heard so, I live with it.
                  >>
                  >> BTW, when am talking to myself, I still call it Extreme Programming.
                  >>
                  >> Best,
                  >> Bill
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >>
                  >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  >> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >>
                  >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Chris Hulan
                  ... From: Jim Hughes To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:06:09 PM Subject: Re: [XP] Re: What do you call
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 3, 2006
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                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Jim Hughes <jeem@...>
                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:06:09 PM
                    Subject: Re: [XP] Re: What do you call "Extreme Programming"?

                    Feedback seems to be at the core of so much of XP, I like Feedback
                    Driven Development.

                    Jim
                    ----- Original Message ----

                    This idea of 'feedback' brings to mind the study of cybernetics.

                    Cybernetic Development has a nice ring to it, but maybe the term has too much other baggage...
                  • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
                    ... From: Chris Hulan To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 3, 2006
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Chris Hulan" <2chulan.at.rogers.com@...>
                      To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
                      <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
                      Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 10:19 AM
                      Subject: Re: [XP] Re: What do you call "Extreme Programming"?


                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: Jim Hughes <jeem@...>
                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:06:09 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: What do you call "Extreme Programming"?
                      >
                      > Feedback seems to be at the core of so much of XP, I like Feedback
                      > Driven Development.

                      Unfortunately, the acronym, FDD, is already taken by
                      Feature Driven Development.

                      John Roth
                      >
                      > Jim
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      >
                      > This idea of 'feedback' brings to mind the study of cybernetics.
                      >
                      > Cybernetic Development has a nice ring to it, but maybe the term has too
                      > much other baggage...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • SherlockSridhar
                      ... What about 127.0.0.1-DD or LBDD, in honor of the loopback IP address? Regards Sherlocksridhar Regards Sridhar
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 3, 2006
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                        On Wed, 3 May 2006 10:45:57 -0600, yahoogroups@... said:
                        > Unfortunately, the acronym, FDD, is already taken by
                        > Feature Driven Development.
                        >
                        > John Roth

                        <attempted humor>

                        What about 127.0.0.1-DD or LBDD, in honor of the loopback IP address?

                        </attempted humor>

                        Regards
                        Sherlocksridhar
                        Regards
                        Sridhar
                        sherlocksridhar@...
                        Sherlocksridhar.blogspot.com
                        -----------------------------
                        "A lot of preconceptions can be avoided by simply trying them out" - Bruce Eckel

                        --
                        http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own
                      • Jim Shore
                        ... I ve gotten crotchety. I ve come to believe that if someone feels threatened by me, they ll find any reason to dislike what I say, no matter how I say it.
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 3, 2006
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                          Cory Foy wrote:
                          > I was talking to a reporter about outsourcing and offshoring last week,
                          > and comparing and contrasting XP, including why communication is so
                          > important.
                          >
                          > I found myself not being able to continue calling it Extreme Programming
                          > because she was getting quite obviously skeptical of the whole shebang.

                          I've gotten crotchety. I've come to believe that if someone feels
                          threatened by me, they'll find any reason to dislike what I say, no
                          matter how I say it. On the other hand, if they trust me, they're
                          willing to overlook all kinds of weird terminology.

                          So I call it "Extreme Programming" and observe reactions.

                          (When I'm introducing the whole set of XP practices. Otherwise, it's
                          "agile.")

                          Cheers,
                          Jim

                          --
                          James Shore -- Titanium IT -- Successful Software
                          Recipient of 2005 Gordon Pask award for
                          Contributions to Agile Practice

                          phone: 503-267-5490
                          email: jshore@...
                          web/blog: http://www.jamesshore.com
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