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Re: [XP] Training Devs to Test

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  • Steven Gordon
    Integrate somebody who already knows how to do it well into your team, perhaps only for a month or so. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 3, 2006
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      Integrate somebody who already knows how to do it well into your team,
      perhaps only for a month or so.

      On 4/3/06, Philip Doherty <pdoherty@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Thanks, do you have any suggestions that could decrease a drop in
      > productivity?
      >
      >
      > >well of course not.
      >
      > >part of the job of management is to create the space where they can
      > learn the new skill, and part of creating that space is setting
      > expectations appropriately. one of those expectations is that you'll
      > have a short term productivity drop while they're learning how to do
      > developer testing; you'll need to make it clear that you expect it, that
      > it is ok, and that they won't be punished for it later.
      >
      > >I've said this to a few different teams in your situation: developers
      > are actually pretty smart and they can see the trap you're
      > (unconsciously) laying. you say do testing now, but they know that in a
      > few months you'll be more concerned about what features were finished.
      > as a result rather than try to add one more thing (testing) when they
      > already have too much to do it is better for them to ignore the testing
      > and work on features.
      >
      > >unless you make it clear that management really really means it, that
      > you really want them to invest in the tests, that you're willing to take
      > the hit to the schedule, unless you create the feeling that they can
      > trust you on this, your effort to have them develop their developer
      > testing skills will fail.
      >
      > >Jtf
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Philip Doherty
      I d love to do that unfortunately I m not sure I could get access to that kind of resource. Phil Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 3, 2006
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        I'd love to do that unfortunately I'm not sure I could get access to
        that kind of resource.

        Phil
        "Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your
        own. You may both be wrong."
        Dandemis

        -----Original Message-----
        From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven Gordon
        Sent: 03 April 2006 14:36
        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [XP] Training Devs to Test

        Integrate somebody who already knows how to do it well into your team,
        perhaps only for a month or so.

        On 4/3/06, Philip Doherty <pdoherty@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Thanks, do you have any suggestions that could decrease a drop in
        > productivity?
        >
        >
        > >well of course not.
        >
        > >part of the job of management is to create the space where they can
        > learn the new skill, and part of creating that space is setting
        > expectations appropriately. one of those expectations is that you'll
        > have a short term productivity drop while they're learning how to do
        > developer testing; you'll need to make it clear that you expect it,
        > that it is ok, and that they won't be punished for it later.
        >
        > >I've said this to a few different teams in your situation: developers
        > are actually pretty smart and they can see the trap you're
        > (unconsciously) laying. you say do testing now, but they know that in

        > a few months you'll be more concerned about what features were
        finished.
        > as a result rather than try to add one more thing (testing) when they
        > already have too much to do it is better for them to ignore the
        > testing and work on features.
        >
        > >unless you make it clear that management really really means it, that
        > you really want them to invest in the tests, that you're willing to
        > take the hit to the schedule, unless you create the feeling that they
        > can trust you on this, your effort to have them develop their
        > developer testing skills will fail.
        >
        > >Jtf
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Charlie Poole
        Hi Phil, ... Since I haven t seen any good developers who don t test - and that s over more than 30 years - I m guessing we have some differences in the use of
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 4, 2006
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          Hi Phil,

          > I was wondering if anyone here who has implemented XP in
          > their own teams has had problems with their developers
          > testing skills. Any stories of introducing the testing to
          > developers, problems dealt with, success or failure would be
          > a great help. To give you an insight I am concerned that the
          > developers I am dealing with may not be able to test at a
          > desirable level initially.

          Since I haven't seen any good developers who don't test - and that's over
          more than 30 years - I'm guessing we have some differences in the use of the
          terms. Most developers I've seen have learned to test from other developers.


          So, can you clarify the question a bit? Can you give some examples of
          specific skills that you would like to see developers gain? I'm also curious
          about what you mean by a "desireable level" of testing.

          Charlie
        • Tim Dugan
          [...] haven t seen any good developers who don t test - [...] Most developers I ve seen have learned to test from other developers. I m sure it s
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 4, 2006
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            " [...] haven't seen any good developers who don't test - [...] Most
            developers I've seen have learned to test from other developers."

            I'm sure it's true...most GOOD developers test most of the time.

            But even great developers can have difficulty testing enhancements to
            legacy systems that were not built with testing in mind--or a system in
            which generations of enhancements have eroded the original unit testing
            scheme.

            Testing is not an innate skill...training people to test and to write
            testable software may be a good idea. If nothing else, you probably
            want to have company and product standards about how and what to test.

            Tim Dugan, Technical Lead - O&D/RTDP
            PROS Revenue Management
            (713)335-7942, tdugan@...


            -----Original Message-----
            From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Poole
            Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 5:36 AM
            To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [XP] Training Devs to Test

            Hi Phil,

            > I was wondering if anyone here who has implemented XP in
            > their own teams has had problems with their developers
            > testing skills. Any stories of introducing the testing to
            > developers, problems dealt with, success or failure would be
            > a great help. To give you an insight I am concerned that the
            > developers I am dealing with may not be able to test at a
            > desirable level initially.

            Since I haven't seen any good developers who don't test - and that's
            over
            more than 30 years - I'm guessing we have some differences in the use of
            the
            terms. Most developers I've seen have learned to test from other
            developers.


            So, can you clarify the question a bit? Can you give some examples of
            specific skills that you would like to see developers gain? I'm also
            curious
            about what you mean by a "desireable level" of testing.

            Charlie




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