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RE: [XP] Second Edition

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  • Aragao, Andre Augusto de (Andre)
    Hi, Sometime ago I think that Ron stated that in XP there s no role called Architect . However, in the second edition Kent describes this role. In fact, he
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1, 2006
      Hi,

      Sometime ago I think that Ron stated that in XP there's no role called
      "Architect".

      However, in the second edition Kent describes this role. In fact, he
      describes a lot of new roles, such as Interaction Designers and
      Technical Writers. Chapter 10 of the new book looks like a refactoring
      of chapter 22 of the first one...

      Andre

      -----Original Message-----
      From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ilja Preuss
      Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:02 AM
      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [XP] Second Edition

      > I don't know whether they are widely in use or not ... or whether they

      > are in fact new and different practices or mere different / better
      > phrasings of the same ideas.

      From just looking at the table of contents (after having read the book a
      couple of months ago), I'd say that it's mostly "just" a different
      phrasing.

      The only practices that I don't remember from the first edition are

      Shrinking Teams
      Daily Deployment, and
      Pay-Per-Use

      Of course it might just be that I don't remember those from the first
      edition, that they actually were mentioned - or at least implied - as
      the others.

      Cheers, Ilja



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    • Ilja Preuss
      ... I don t have the book at hand, but I don t remember that chapter to be about these are roles on an XP team , but more about these are roles you might be
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 3, 2006
        > Sometime ago I think that Ron stated that in XP there's no role
        > called "Architect".
        >
        > However, in the second edition Kent describes this role. In
        > fact, he describes a lot of new roles, such as Interaction
        > Designers and Technical Writers.

        I don't have the book at hand, but I don't remember that chapter to be about
        "these are roles on an XP team", but more about "these are roles you might
        be used to/already have on your team - how would they fit into an XP team".

        With other words, I'd agree with Ron there is nor architect role in XP,
        although XP teams will have "architects" in one way or another.

        Cheers, Ilja
      • Charlie Poole
        There is no Architect role in XP, but that doesn t mean there isn t a role in XP for architects, not to mention interaction designers, people with mustaches,
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
          There is no Architect role in XP, but that doesn't mean there isn't a role
          in XP for architects, not to mention interaction designers, people with
          mustaches, managers, football fans, technical writers, business analysts,
          etc.

          My reading of Kent's new book is that he is offering us some ideas about how
          those folks - well some of those above - might function in an XP
          environment. Not that he's saying every XP project has to have an Architect.


          Charlie

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > Aragao, Andre Augusto de (Andre)
          > Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 9:40 PM
          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [XP] Second Edition
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > Sometime ago I think that Ron stated that in XP there's no
          > role called "Architect".
          >
          > However, in the second edition Kent describes this role. In
          > fact, he describes a lot of new roles, such as Interaction
          > Designers and Technical Writers. Chapter 10 of the new book
          > looks like a refactoring of chapter 22 of the first one...
          >
          > Andre
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ilja Preuss
          > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:02 AM
          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [XP] Second Edition
          >
          > > I don't know whether they are widely in use or not ... or
          > whether they
          >
          > > are in fact new and different practices or mere different / better
          > > phrasings of the same ideas.
          >
          > From just looking at the table of contents (after having read
          > the book a couple of months ago), I'd say that it's mostly
          > "just" a different phrasing.
          >
          > The only practices that I don't remember from the first edition are
          >
          > Shrinking Teams
          > Daily Deployment, and
          > Pay-Per-Use
          >
          > Of course it might just be that I don't remember those from
          > the first edition, that they actually were mentioned - or at
          > least implied - as the others.
          >
          > Cheers, Ilja
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
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          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
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          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Aragao, Andre Augusto de (Andre)
          ... Perfect. The tone for the second book seems to be: tailor it according to your context. This is a bright attitude, contrary to some religious attitudes
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
            >> Not that he's saying every XP project has to have an Architect.

            Perfect. The tone for the second book seems to be: tailor it according
            to your context. This is a bright attitude, contrary to some religious
            attitudes common around here...

            Andre

            -----Original Message-----
            From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Poole
            Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 7:36 AM
            To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [XP] Second Edition

            There is no Architect role in XP, but that doesn't mean there isn't a
            role in XP for architects, not to mention interaction designers, people
            with mustaches, managers, football fans, technical writers, business
            analysts, etc.

            My reading of Kent's new book is that he is offering us some ideas about
            how those folks - well some of those above - might function in an XP
            environment. Not that he's saying every XP project has to have an
            Architect.


            Charlie

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aragao, Andre

            > Augusto de (Andre)
            > Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 9:40 PM
            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [XP] Second Edition
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > Sometime ago I think that Ron stated that in XP there's no role called

            > "Architect".
            >
            > However, in the second edition Kent describes this role. In fact, he
            > describes a lot of new roles, such as Interaction Designers and
            > Technical Writers. Chapter 10 of the new book looks like a refactoring

            > of chapter 22 of the first one...
            >
            > Andre
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ilja Preuss
            > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:02 AM
            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [XP] Second Edition
            >
            > > I don't know whether they are widely in use or not ... or
            > whether they
            >
            > > are in fact new and different practices or mere different / better
            > > phrasings of the same ideas.
            >
            > From just looking at the table of contents (after having read the book

            > a couple of months ago), I'd say that it's mostly "just" a different
            > phrasing.
            >
            > The only practices that I don't remember from the first edition are
            >
            > Shrinking Teams
            > Daily Deployment, and
            > Pay-Per-Use
            >
            > Of course it might just be that I don't remember those from the first
            > edition, that they actually were mentioned - or at least implied - as
            > the others.
            >
            > Cheers, Ilja
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




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          • Thierry Cros
            ... [...] ... My feeling about this new book is about XP : embrace change ... __ Thierry Cros _________________________________ http://www.thierrycros.net
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
              --- Charlie Poole <xp@...> a écrit :
              [...]
              > My reading of Kent's new book is that he is offering us some
              > ideas about how
              > those folks - well some of those above - might function in an
              > XP
              > environment. Not that he's saying every XP project has to have
              > an Architect.

              My feeling about this new book is about XP : "embrace change"
              :-)

              >
              >
              > Charlie
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > > Aragao, Andre Augusto de (Andre)
              > > Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 9:40 PM
              > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: RE: [XP] Second Edition
              > >
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > Sometime ago I think that Ron stated that in XP there's no
              > > role called "Architect".
              > >
              > > However, in the second edition Kent describes this role. In
              > > fact, he describes a lot of new roles, such as Interaction
              > > Designers and Technical Writers. Chapter 10 of the new book
              > > looks like a refactoring of chapter 22 of the first one...
              > >
              > > Andre
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > Ilja Preuss
              > > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:02 AM
              > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: RE: [XP] Second Edition
              > >
              > > > I don't know whether they are widely in use or not ... or
              > > whether they
              > >
              > > > are in fact new and different practices or mere different
              > / better
              > > > phrasings of the same ideas.
              > >
              > > From just looking at the table of contents (after having
              > read
              > > the book a couple of months ago), I'd say that it's mostly
              > > "just" a different phrasing.
              > >
              > > The only practices that I don't remember from the first
              > edition are
              > >
              > > Shrinking Teams
              > > Daily Deployment, and
              > > Pay-Per-Use
              > >
              > > Of course it might just be that I don't remember those from
              > > the first edition, that they actually were mentioned - or at
              >
              > > least implied - as the others.
              > >
              > > Cheers, Ilja
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to:
              > extremeprogramming@...
              > >
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              > >
              > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to:
              > extremeprogramming@...
              > >
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              > >
              > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to:
              > extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              __ Thierry Cros _________________________________

              http://www.thierrycros.net









              <pub>






              ___________________________________________________________________________
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            • glbrown@inebraska.com
              ... Something to consider ... It seems to me that the majority of the participants on this group, who actually do XP every day, use the XPE-1E practices,
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                Quoting "Aragao, Andre Augusto de (Andre)" <aragao@...>:

                > >> Not that he's saying every XP project has to have an Architect.
                >
                > Perfect. The tone for the second book seems to be: tailor it according
                > to your context. This is a bright attitude, contrary to some religious
                > attitudes common around here...
                >
                > Andre

                Something to consider ...

                It seems to me that the majority of the participants on this group, who actually
                do XP every day, use the XPE-1E practices, because they have come to understand
                how the practices support and enhance each other.

                See "Local adaptation", near the top of page 42 in XPE-1E. The informed
                opinions expressed here, seem to me to be saying, give the XPE-1E practices a
                try for a while, then decide how to adapt. I have found that the XPE-1E
                practices help my organization to deliver better software, in less time, with
                fewer defects. If that result would be valuable to you, one thing you could do
                is follow the advice you received here, and gain your own experience. Another
                thing you could do is go visit a Waterfall group and preach to the choir there
                about the religious fanatics on the XP group.`

                GB.
              • D. André Dhondt
                My team started with XP2E, so the debates on philosophical changes between versions is over my head. How important do you think it is to our group to read
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                  My team started with XP2E, so the debates on philosophical changes between
                  versions is over my head. How important do you think it is to our group to
                  read XP1E to get this history? Do you think it would change our views or
                  practice?

                  On 4/4/06, glbrown@... <glbrown@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Quoting "Aragao, Andre Augusto de (Andre)" <aragao@...>:
                  >
                  > > >> Not that he's saying every XP project has to have an Architect.
                  > >
                  > > Perfect. The tone for the second book seems to be: tailor it according
                  > > to your context. This is a bright attitude, contrary to some religious
                  > > attitudes common around here...
                  > >
                  > > Andre
                  >
                  > Something to consider ...
                  >
                  > It seems to me that the majority of the participants on this group, who
                  > actually
                  > do XP every day, use the XPE-1E practices, because they have come to
                  > understand
                  > how the practices support and enhance each other.
                  >
                  > See "Local adaptation", near the top of page 42 in XPE-1E. The informed
                  > opinions expressed here, seem to me to be saying, give the XPE-1E
                  > practices a
                  > try for a while, then decide how to adapt. I have found that the XPE-1E
                  > practices help my organization to deliver better software, in less time,
                  > with
                  > fewer defects. If that result would be valuable to you, one thing you
                  > could do
                  > is follow the advice you received here, and gain your own
                  > experience. Another
                  > thing you could do is go visit a Waterfall group and preach to the choir
                  > there
                  > about the religious fanatics on the XP group.`
                  >
                  > GB.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ron Jeffries
                  ... How are things working for you? What, if any questions or concerns do you have about how things are going? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Keep away from
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                    On Tuesday, April 4, 2006, at 7:46:54 AM, D. André Dhondt wrote:

                    > My team started with XP2E, so the debates on philosophical changes between
                    > versions is over my head. How important do you think it is to our group to
                    > read XP1E to get this history? Do you think it would change our views or
                    > practice?

                    How are things working for you? What, if any questions or concerns
                    do you have about how things are going?

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people
                    always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can
                    become great." -- Mark Twain.
                  • banshee858
                    ... Yes and no. I have heard Kent speak on XP2E and I feel he really believes that all the practices are necessary - these are all practices that provide
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                      >
                      > >> Not that he's saying every XP project has to have an Architect.
                      >
                      > Perfect. The tone for the second book seems to be: tailor it
                      > according to your context. This is a bright attitude, contrary to
                      > some religious attitudes common around here...
                      >
                      Yes and no. I have heard Kent speak on XP2E and I feel he really
                      believes that all the practices are necessary - these are all
                      practices that provide quality code, encourage communication and
                      provide a healthy, human work environment. He also talks about
                      incremental change and applying pieces as they make sense, which not
                      much different than XP1E where he said "pick your first problem and
                      solve it the XP way". I feel the BIGGEST difference between the two
                      is in XP2E, the practices are things that anyone can do, not just
                      programmers.

                      Carlton
                    • glbrown@inebraska.com
                      ... My initial reaction to XPE-2E was that it was meant to quiet the criticism of XPE-1E. Upon further reflection, I began to think about XPE-2E as
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                        Quoting "D. André Dhondt" <d.andre.dhondt@...>:

                        > My team started with XP2E, so the debates on philosophical changes between
                        > versions is over my head. How important do you think it is to our group to
                        > read XP1E to get this history? Do you think it would change our views or
                        > practice?

                        My initial reaction to XPE-2E was that it was meant to quiet the criticism of
                        XPE-1E. Upon further reflection, I began to think about XPE-2E as
                        reinforcement for the ideas on page 123 of XPE-1E, i.e. Pick your worst
                        problem, etc. XPE-2E gives organizations greater freedom to adopt and benefit
                        from XP.

                        In my experience, organizations won't attempt change, without a compelling
                        reason. If an organization were to adopt an XP practice or two and realize
                        some benefit, I think that it is unlikely that they would adopt the other
                        practices, without new compelling reason. Since they don't know what they are
                        missing from the other XPE-1E practices, how would they know what to choose, or
                        what benefit to expect.

                        If an organization starts with the XPE-1E practices, then I think that they
                        would be in a better position to make an informed decision.

                        When I started XP in my current organization, I insisted that we do all of the
                        XPE-1E practices, to the best of our ability, for twelve weeks, then decide how
                        to adapt. There were six people on that first team. After eight weeks, they
                        decided that they didn't want to go back to the old way of development. Two
                        years later, we have about 50 people working on seven teams.

                        The one XPE-1E practice that we have not adopted is On-site Customer. For
                        historical reasons, our Customers are located in VA, while we work in MO. Even
                        though we have strong evidence that development goes better when our Customers
                        are here, we remain separate.

                        My advice to you is to adopt all of the XPE-1E practices that you can now,
                        because you probably won't get to add them later. Worse, because you aren't
                        getting the benefit of the combined power of all of the practices, your
                        organization might decide that XP doesn't work for them, and abandon the
                        effort.

                        GB.
                      • Aragao, Andre Augusto de (Andre)
                        That was very eliciting. As we are speaking about process customization, how are you dealing with the fact that your customers are not co-located, in relation
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                          That was very eliciting. As we are speaking about process customization, how are you dealing with the fact that your customers are not co-located, in relation to:

                          1 - Scope Management - Who's prioritizing Stories and Bug Corrections? We have a similar scenario, and we are using a sort of Internal Customer Proxy or Product Manager, who has the responsibility to represent the Customer and interact with him. It makes the process a little harder, however scales better due to the number of sites we have abroad - and there are also historical reasons for working that way.

                          2 - Acceptance Tests - Who's writing and reviewing it? Do you have a separate QA Team? Here, we are thinking of having a separate QA team, wich will be responsible, among other things, for writing and reviewing the Acceptance Tests.

                          Andre



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of glbrown@...
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 1:09 PM
                          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [XP] Second Edition

                          Quoting "D. André Dhondt" <d.andre.dhondt@...>:

                          > My team started with XP2E, so the debates on philosophical changes
                          > between versions is over my head. How important do you think it is to
                          > our group to read XP1E to get this history? Do you think it would
                          > change our views or practice?

                          My initial reaction to XPE-2E was that it was meant to quiet the criticism of XPE-1E. Upon further reflection, I began to think about XPE-2E as reinforcement for the ideas on page 123 of XPE-1E, i.e. Pick your worst problem, etc. XPE-2E gives organizations greater freedom to adopt and benefit from XP.

                          In my experience, organizations won't attempt change, without a compelling reason. If an organization were to adopt an XP practice or two and realize some benefit, I think that it is unlikely that they would adopt the other practices, without new compelling reason. Since they don't know what they are missing from the other XPE-1E practices, how would they know what to choose, or what benefit to expect.

                          If an organization starts with the XPE-1E practices, then I think that they would be in a better position to make an informed decision.

                          When I started XP in my current organization, I insisted that we do all of the XPE-1E practices, to the best of our ability, for twelve weeks, then decide how to adapt. There were six people on that first team. After eight weeks, they decided that they didn't want to go back to the old way of development. Two years later, we have about 50 people working on seven teams.

                          The one XPE-1E practice that we have not adopted is On-site Customer. For historical reasons, our Customers are located in VA, while we work in MO. Even though we have strong evidence that development goes better when our Customers are here, we remain separate.

                          My advice to you is to adopt all of the XPE-1E practices that you can now, because you probably won't get to add them later. Worse, because you aren't getting the benefit of the combined power of all of the practices, your organization might decide that XP doesn't work for them, and abandon the effort.

                          GB.




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                        • D. André Dhondt
                          Concerns/problems for a team that started XP with XP2E: * there is still a significant amount of time every week that we can t account for--let s call it
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                            Concerns/problems for a team that started XP with XP2E:

                            * there is still a significant amount of time every week that we can't
                            account for--let's call it non-card activity. We'd like to measure that,
                            remove the waste, and see if we can move more cards in an iteration
                            * we have a few legacy systems that were not built test-first, and they keep
                            breaking and causing us to reprioritize cards during an iteration. The
                            customer won't pick cards to write UTs for these legacy apps 'cause the
                            customer doesn't really value the old systems until they're offline.


                            On 4/4/06, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > On Tuesday, April 4, 2006, at 7:46:54 AM, D. André Dhondt wrote:
                            >
                            > > My team started with XP2E, so the debates on philosophical changes
                            > between
                            > > versions is over my head. How important do you think it is to our group
                            > to
                            > > read XP1E to get this history? Do you think it would change our views
                            > or
                            > > practice?
                            >
                            > How are things working for you? What, if any questions or concerns
                            > do you have about how things are going?
                            >
                            > Ron Jeffries
                            > www.XProgramming.com
                            > Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people
                            > always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can
                            > become great." -- Mark Twain.
                            >
                            >
                            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                            >
                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                            >
                            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • banshee858
                            ... Good point. I will have to remember this. Carlton
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                              >
                              > In my experience, organizations won't attempt change, without a
                              > compelling reason. If an organization were to adopt an XP practice
                              > or two and realize some benefit, I think that it is unlikely that
                              > they would adopt the other practices, without new compelling reason.
                              > Since they don't know what they are missing from the other XPE-1E
                              > practices, how would they know what to choose, or what benefit to
                              > expect.
                              >
                              ...
                              >
                              > My advice to you is to adopt all of the XPE-1E practices that you
                              > can now, because you probably won't get to add them later. Worse,
                              > because you aren't getting the benefit of the combined power of all
                              > of the practices, your organization might decide that XP doesn't work
                              > for them, and abandon the effort.
                              >
                              Good point. I will have to remember this.

                              Carlton
                            • glbrown@inebraska.com
                              ... We have various coping mechanisms. All of the stories are maintained in electronic form, e.g. Excel, XPlanner, etc. We follow the ideas in Ron s article
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                                Quoting "Aragao, Andre Augusto de (Andre)" <aragao@...>:

                                >
                                > That was very eliciting. As we are speaking about process customization, how
                                > are you dealing with the fact that your customers are not co-located, in
                                > relation to:
                                >
                                > 1 - Scope Management - Who's prioritizing Stories and Bug Corrections? We
                                > have a similar scenario, and we are using a sort of Internal Customer Proxy
                                > or Product Manager, who has the responsibility to represent the Customer and
                                > interact with him. It makes the process a little harder, however scales
                                > better due to the number of sites we have abroad - and there are also
                                > historical reasons for working that way.

                                We have various coping mechanisms. All of the stories are maintained in
                                electronic form, e.g. Excel, XPlanner, etc. We follow the ideas in Ron's
                                article "Petition The King",
                                <http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/PetitionTheKing.htm>. We do daily video
                                conferences and weekly planning games. We created a role that we call Traffic
                                Manager, to stay on top of and buffer the ever changing priorities.


                                >
                                > 2 - Acceptance Tests - Who's writing and reviewing it? Do you have a separate
                                > QA Team? Here, we are thinking of having a separate QA team, wich will be
                                > responsible, among other things, for writing and reviewing the Acceptance
                                > Tests.

                                We have a separate QA function, that we are in the process of disbanding. We
                                are struggling to automate enough of the routine, manual testing to complete
                                that transition, though.

                                My goal is to have the QA Tester role morph into a Customer Advocate role, to
                                bring the customer into the room. I am also working to convince management to
                                locate Customer-type new hires here, while still reporting to management in VA.
                                I'm not holding my breath on that one though. We need to make it happen within
                                our own sphere of influence, first.

                                GB.
                              • Ron Jeffries
                                ... I d think that nothing in XP2E is stopping you from doing that, merely finding the will and the time. If there s something else in the way, let s talk
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 4, 2006
                                  On Tuesday, April 4, 2006, at 10:04:50 AM, D. André Dhondt wrote:

                                  > Concerns/problems for a team that started XP with XP2E:

                                  > * there is still a significant amount of time every week that we can't
                                  > account for--let's call it non-card activity. We'd like to measure that,
                                  > remove the waste, and see if we can move more cards in an iteration

                                  I'd think that nothing in XP2E is stopping you from doing that,
                                  merely finding the will and the time. If there's something else in
                                  the way, let's talk about it.

                                  > * we have a few legacy systems that were not built test-first, and they keep
                                  > breaking and causing us to reprioritize cards during an iteration. The
                                  > customer won't pick cards to write UTs for these legacy apps 'cause the
                                  > customer doesn't really value the old systems until they're offline.

                                  There shouldn't be cards to write unit tests. If the systems aren't
                                  being worked on, then they don't need tests.

                                  If there are bugs or features scheduled into those systems, then
                                  an appropriate number of tests need to be added as part of those
                                  stories. The estimates for those stories will therefore be somewhat
                                  larger than they would have been if the code was all lovely and
                                  tested.

                                  Make sense? Inquire further at will.

                                  Regards,

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  A long range weather forecast should be obtained before leaving,
                                  as weather conditions are extremely unpredictable. --Natal Daily News
                                • Ilja Preuss
                                  ... Frankly, I don t see any religious attitudes around here. I see some strong opinions, but those seem to be mostly rooted in experience, not believe.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 5, 2006
                                    > Perfect. The tone for the second book seems to be: tailor it
                                    > according to your context. This is a bright attitude,
                                    > contrary to some religious attitudes common around here...

                                    Frankly, I don't see any religious attitudes around here. I see some strong
                                    opinions, but those seem to be mostly rooted in experience, not believe.

                                    Cheers, Ilja
                                  • Kent Beck
                                    GB, It sounds like your team has made a lot of progress by applying XP. I don t understand the statement below, however. It seems to me that if a team embraces
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 5, 2006
                                      GB,

                                      It sounds like your team has made a lot of progress by applying XP. I don't
                                      understand the statement below, however. It seems to me that if a team
                                      embraces change, adding new practices and improving existing practices will
                                      come along with understanding of XP's principles and belief in XP's values.

                                      It sounds to me like you are afraid that if you can't make a huge
                                      improvement immediately, organizations will abandon XP. My experience is
                                      that steady progress and gradually deepening relationships are more likely
                                      to last a long time and show large improvements over time. Yes, there is a
                                      time for The Cannonball (*), but most organizations are not in sufficient
                                      chaos to make it necessary.

                                      Sincerely yours,

                                      Kent Beck
                                      Three Rivers Institute

                                      (*) http://www.threeriversinstitute.org/Toe%20Dipping.pdf

                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                      > glbrown@...
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:09 AM
                                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [XP] Second Edition
                                      >
                                      > My advice to you is to adopt all of the XPE-1E practices that
                                      > you can now,
                                      > because you probably won't get to add them later. Worse,
                                      > because you aren't
                                      > getting the benefit of the combined power of all of the
                                      > practices, your
                                      > organization might decide that XP doesn't work for them, and
                                      > abandon the
                                      > effort.
                                      >
                                      > GB.
                                    • Kent Beck
                                      Carlton, I ve heard me speak, too (:-), and I feel that I really believe that all of the practices are valuable. Plenty of good software has been written
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Apr 5, 2006
                                        Carlton,

                                        I've heard me speak, too (:-), and I feel that I really believe that all of
                                        the practices are valuable. Plenty of good software has been written without
                                        them, so wouldn't say "necessary". While many of the practices have analogs
                                        in other disciplines (for example, JoshK's "Test-driven Management)and make
                                        sense as is in larger contexts, they were originally written by a programmer
                                        primarily for programmers.

                                        Sincerely yours,

                                        Kent Beck
                                        Three Rivers Institute

                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                        > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of banshee858
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:32 AM
                                        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [XP] Re: Second Edition
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > >> Not that he's saying every XP project has to have an Architect.
                                        > >
                                        > > Perfect. The tone for the second book seems to be: tailor it
                                        > > according to your context. This is a bright attitude, contrary to
                                        > > some religious attitudes common around here...
                                        > >
                                        > Yes and no. I have heard Kent speak on XP2E and I feel he really
                                        > believes that all the practices are necessary - these are all
                                        > practices that provide quality code, encourage communication and
                                        > provide a healthy, human work environment. He also talks about
                                        > incremental change and applying pieces as they make sense, which not
                                        > much different than XP1E where he said "pick your first problem and
                                        > solve it the XP way". I feel the BIGGEST difference between the two
                                        > is in XP2E, the practices are things that anyone can do, not just
                                        > programmers.
                                        >
                                        > Carlton
                                      • glbrown@inebraska.com
                                        ... I am pretty much fearless when it comes to software development. I think that the people who work with me would say that I am all about making small
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Apr 5, 2006
                                          Quoting Kent Beck <kentb@...>:

                                          > GB,
                                          >
                                          > It sounds like your team has made a lot of progress by applying XP. I don't
                                          > understand the statement below, however. It seems to me that if a team
                                          > embraces change, adding new practices and improving existing practices will
                                          > come along with understanding of XP's principles and belief in XP's values.
                                          >
                                          > It sounds to me like you are afraid that if you can't make a huge
                                          > improvement immediately, organizations will abandon XP. My experience is
                                          > that steady progress and gradually deepening relationships are more likely
                                          > to last a long time and show large improvements over time. Yes, there is a
                                          > time for The Cannonball (*), but most organizations are not in sufficient
                                          > chaos to make it necessary.

                                          I am pretty much fearless when it comes to software development. I think that
                                          the people who work with me would say that I am all about making small
                                          incremental improvements. I am constantly asking our developers to be willing
                                          to try to get better, to nudge the dial up a little each day. To me, it takes
                                          an incredible amount of self|team discipline to develop software in XP style.
                                          It is very easy to back-slide, especially when deadlines loom. I believe that
                                          my responsibility here in this organization is to constantly nudge the teams and
                                          individual developers toward doing all of the practices, all of the time, to the
                                          best of their ability. Some days are better than others.

                                          As an aside, we adopted XP here, not because of a looming crisis, but because
                                          our VP wanted to transition to Java language development, from PL/I on VMS and
                                          ColdFusion for web applications. He and I had worked together at another
                                          company where they moved from mainframe assembler to C++. In that instance,
                                          about half of the developers were unable to make the transition. Many of them
                                          left the company, or simply faded into the background. We lost a lot of
                                          critical business and application knowledge. We didn't want to see that happen
                                          here. We thought that the collaborative nature of XP would make it easier to
                                          make the technology transition. So far, it has been working. We have also
                                          found that we are able to add employees and get them up to speed in much less
                                          time.

                                          GB.
                                        • banshee858
                                          Kent, I struggled with the word necessary since I know the tone of XP2E is much different than XP1E. I thought necessary struck that balance; guess I was
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Apr 5, 2006
                                            Kent, I struggled with the word "necessary" since I know the tone of
                                            XP2E is much different than XP1E. I thought "necessary" struck that
                                            balance; guess I was wrong. Thank you for the correction.

                                            Carlton
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