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Re: [XP] Pair programming with the Product Owner?

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  • Tim Haughton
    ... Hi, I did something similar a few years ago. It was an interesting experiment. It was a much needed, although reasonably small change to an existing piece
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 31, 2006
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      On 01/04/06, vanschoo@... <vanschoo@...> wrote:
      > Hello -
      >
      > Our team has a Product Owner who is quite technical (knowledgeable about the databases and some coding). One of the developers suggested pair programming with the Product Owner. It sounds like a good idea to try. I'm curious to know if anyone on this list has had a similar situation and tried that.



      Hi, I did something similar a few years ago. It was an interesting
      experiment. It was a much needed, although reasonably small change to
      an existing piece of software. I paired with the product manager and
      did 1 hour iterations. It was quite interesting. I've never tried
      scaling it.

      --
      Regards,

      Tim Haughton

      http://agitek.co.uk
      http://blogitek.com/timhaughton
    • agileadrian
      Hi Tim, I am the developer who floated this idea, and I am encouraged by your reply and the article Penny recommended. However, being new to Agile methods I
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 3 9:02 AM
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        Hi Tim,

        I am the developer who floated this idea, and I am encouraged by
        your reply and the article Penny recommended. However, being new to
        Agile methods I am not sure what you mean by 1 hour iterations. I
        was thinking of pairing with the product owner while developing a
        particular story we expect to include complex business rules but I
        expect the total development effort to take a matter of days rather
        than hours.

        From my experiences so far I can see the value dividing projects
        into discrete tasks that are small and manageable, so I can see the
        value in dividing my large task up into smaller chunks or
        iterations. However, I am not sure how you might divide a largish
        development task into smaller chunks. Can you tell me any more
        about what you did and any strategies you found useful?

        Many thanks for your support.

        Adrian



        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Haughton"
        <timhaughton@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 01/04/06, vanschoo@... <vanschoo@...> wrote:
        > > Hello -
        > >
        > > Our team has a Product Owner who is quite technical
        (knowledgeable about the databases and some coding). One of the
        developers suggested pair programming with the Product Owner. It
        sounds like a good idea to try. I'm curious to know if anyone on
        this list has had a similar situation and tried that.
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi, I did something similar a few years ago. It was an interesting
        > experiment. It was a much needed, although reasonably small change
        to
        > an existing piece of software. I paired with the product manager
        and
        > did 1 hour iterations. It was quite interesting. I've never tried
        > scaling it.
        >
        > --
        > Regards,
        >
        > Tim Haughton
        >
        > http://agitek.co.uk
        > http://blogitek.com/timhaughton
        >
      • Dave Peckham
        Adrian, Why not pair up on the development of automated acceptance tests rather than on the implementation? This likely gets you all the same benefits while
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 7 8:14 AM
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          Adrian,

          Why not pair up on the development of automated acceptance tests
          rather than on the implementation? This likely gets you all the same
          benefits while focusing on the outcome, not on the implementation
          details.

          Best,
          Dave

          On 4/3/06, agileadrian <mowat27@...> wrote:
          > Hi Tim,
          >
          > I am the developer who floated this idea, and I am encouraged by
          > your reply and the article Penny recommended. However, being new to
          > Agile methods I am not sure what you mean by 1 hour iterations. I
          > was thinking of pairing with the product owner while developing a
          > particular story we expect to include complex business rules but I
          > expect the total development effort to take a matter of days rather
          > than hours.
          >
          > From my experiences so far I can see the value dividing projects
          > into discrete tasks that are small and manageable, so I can see the
          > value in dividing my large task up into smaller chunks or
          > iterations. However, I am not sure how you might divide a largish
          > development task into smaller chunks. Can you tell me any more
          > about what you did and any strategies you found useful?
          >
          > Many thanks for your support.
          >
          > Adrian
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Haughton"
          > <timhaughton@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > On 01/04/06, vanschoo@... <vanschoo@...> wrote:
          > > > Hello -
          > > >
          > > > Our team has a Product Owner who is quite technical
          > (knowledgeable about the databases and some coding). One of the
          > developers suggested pair programming with the Product Owner. It
          > sounds like a good idea to try. I'm curious to know if anyone on
          > this list has had a similar situation and tried that.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi, I did something similar a few years ago. It was an interesting
          > > experiment. It was a much needed, although reasonably small change
          > to
          > > an existing piece of software. I paired with the product manager
          > and
          > > did 1 hour iterations. It was quite interesting. I've never tried
          > > scaling it.
          > >
          > > --
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > > Tim Haughton
          > >
          > > http://agitek.co.uk
          > > http://blogitek.com/timhaughton
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Adrian Mowat
          Dave, Thanks for your advice – it is right in line with the way we have been going since the original post. We have started looking at ways we can work with
          Message 4 of 5 , Apr 8 3:44 AM
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            Dave,



            Thanks for your advice � it is right in line with the way we have been going
            since the original post. We have started looking at ways we can work with
            the Product Owner to define scenarios and automated acceptance tests and I'm
            really excited about the benefits this will bring. You are right that the
            Product Owner cannot add benefit to the implementation detail but the syntax
            of the ETL language we are using makes it easy to separate the business
            rules from the implementation detail. I hope we can take advantage of this
            by pairing with him during coding as well so he can refine his scenarios as
            we go along rather than being at the end of an unnecessary feedback loop.



            It might not work of course, but it's worth exploring. I look forward to
            sharing my experiences with the group.



            Adrian



            P.S. As an aside, isn't it interesting how the ideas behind the accessible
            syntax of APL (see the link Penny posted to this thread) have re-emerged in
            some of the shiny modern languages we use today?



            On 07/04/06, Dave Peckham <dave.peckham@...> wrote:
            >
            > Adrian,
            >
            > Why not pair up on the development of automated acceptance tests
            > rather than on the implementation? This likely gets you all the same
            > benefits while focusing on the outcome, not on the implementation
            > details.
            >
            > Best,
            > Dave
            >
            > On 4/3/06, agileadrian <mowat27@...> wrote:
            > > Hi Tim,
            > >
            > > I am the developer who floated this idea, and I am encouraged by
            > > your reply and the article Penny recommended. However, being new to
            > > Agile methods I am not sure what you mean by 1 hour iterations. I
            > > was thinking of pairing with the product owner while developing a
            > > particular story we expect to include complex business rules but I
            > > expect the total development effort to take a matter of days rather
            > > than hours.
            > >
            > > From my experiences so far I can see the value dividing projects
            > > into discrete tasks that are small and manageable, so I can see the
            > > value in dividing my large task up into smaller chunks or
            > > iterations. However, I am not sure how you might divide a largish
            > > development task into smaller chunks. Can you tell me any more
            > > about what you did and any strategies you found useful?
            > >
            > > Many thanks for your support.
            > >
            > > Adrian
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Haughton"
            > > <timhaughton@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > On 01/04/06, vanschoo@... <vanschoo@...> wrote:
            > > > > Hello -
            > > > >
            > > > > Our team has a Product Owner who is quite technical
            > > (knowledgeable about the databases and some coding). One of the
            > > developers suggested pair programming with the Product Owner. It
            > > sounds like a good idea to try. I'm curious to know if anyone on
            > > this list has had a similar situation and tried that.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hi, I did something similar a few years ago. It was an interesting
            > > > experiment. It was a much needed, although reasonably small change
            > > to
            > > > an existing piece of software. I paired with the product manager
            > > and
            > > > did 1 hour iterations. It was quite interesting. I've never tried
            > > > scaling it.
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > Regards,
            > > >
            > > > Tim Haughton
            > > >
            > > > http://agitek.co.uk
            > > > http://blogitek.com/timhaughton
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            > >
            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            > >
            > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


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