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[extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....

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  • Bill Caputo
    Geoff, ... Having only been on this list for a week, I am curious, about your expectations: I want to learn more about this methodology. It seems to me that
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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      Geoff,

      > Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this list
      > is just a big love fest for the XP principals.

      Having only been on this list for a week, I am curious, about your
      expectations:

      I want to learn more about this methodology. It seems to me that the best
      way to do this is to read the comments (and evangelizing) of those who are
      in favor of it, as well as the comments of skeptics who are unsure, or even
      outright against it.

      There seems to be a lot like me (the lurker flood showed that), several
      practictioners, and some skeptics. I am getting what I came for, I am glad
      there are evangelists, and the skeptics are voicing valid questions--and not
      getting flamed, but instead generating discussion.

      So my question is what did you expect a mailing list about Extreme
      Programming to be if not an exposition of its principles?

      Best,
      Bill
    • Mark Strecker
      Hello Alan, It s good to hear from you again. Mark
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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        Hello Alan,

           It's good to hear from you again.

        Mark

        Alan Francis wrote:

        I'm Alan, one of the two Brits (three is you count Mr Fowler)  who attended
        XPImmersionOne, so Hi to anyone else who was there...

        A.
        --
        Alan C Francis <alanf@...> [ http://www.owl.co.uk/ ]
        I would never die for my beliefs. I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell

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      • Alan Francis
        Hi Bob, Hi Mark... I attempted to join the lista while ago, but cheerily failed to properly read the initial mail that I had to reply-to. I spent a few weeks
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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          Hi Bob, Hi Mark...

          I attempted to join the lista while ago, but cheerily failed to properly
          read the initial mail that I had to reply-to. I spent a few weeks wondering
          why there was no traffic on the list :-)

          A.
          --
          Alan C Francis <alanf@...> [ http://www.owl.co.uk/ ]
          I would never die for my beliefs. I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell




          -----Original Message-----
          From: Mark Strecker <Mark.Strecker@...>
          To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
          Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:06 PM
          Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....


          >Hello Alan,
          >
          > It's good to hear from you again.
          >
          >Mark
          >
          >Alan Francis wrote:
          >
          >> I'm Alan, one of the two Brits (three is you count Mr Fowler) who
          attended
          >> XPImmersionOne, so Hi to anyone else who was there...
          >>
          >> A.
          >> --
          >> Alan C Francis <alanf@...> [ http://www.owl.co.uk/ ]
          >> I would never die for my beliefs. I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          >
          >
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        • Bob Oliver
          ... Well, I just wanted to say goodbye. Why would the 400 or so of us who are not Alan care that you find it nice to hear from him? Is this what you had in
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Robert C. Martin [mailto:rmartin@...]
            > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:57 AM
            > To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
            > Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....
            >
            > Hello Alan, nice to hear from you again.
            >
            > Uncle Bob.

            Well, I just wanted to say goodbye. Why would the 400
            or so of us who are not Alan care that you find it nice
            to hear from him?

            Is this what you had in mind when you started this group?

            Regards,

            Bob Oliver
          • Geoffrey Clements
            Actually, I m just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this list is just a big love fest for the XP principals. geoff ... From: Bob Oliver
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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              Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this list
              is just a big love fest for the XP principals.


              geoff


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bob Oliver" <oliverb@...>
              To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 12:05 PM
              Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....


              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Robert C. Martin [mailto:rmartin@...]
              > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:57 AM
              > > To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
              > > Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....
              > >
              > > Hello Alan, nice to hear from you again.
              > >
              > > Uncle Bob.
              >
              > Well, I just wanted to say goodbye. Why would the 400
              > or so of us who are not Alan care that you find it nice
              > to hear from him?
              >
              > Is this what you had in mind when you started this group?
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Bob Oliver
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Barry Gervin
              This sort of relates to the OpenSource question. The project that I m working on is a commercial product development and I m trying to visualize how things
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                This sort of relates to the OpenSource question.

                The project that I'm working on is a commercial product development and I'm
                trying to visualize how things will be affected if we were to apply the XP
                principles.

                The way our release cycles work is when we have finished a version (say 3.6)
                we release it to our customers who are ready for a release. We start to work
                on the next version (3.7). In the background however our maintenance team
                does some maintenance on the last version (3.6). Furthermore, if we have a
                big module that will take some time & iterations to get right, we may start
                working on 3.8 as well. By the time 3.7 is ready, we release it to customers
                who are ready for 3.7. Some customers may still stay at 3.6 and eventually
                upgrade to 4.0. They may need some interim fixes, they may even need a logic
                change.

                The challenging part of this is to refactor mercilessly. I guess this is a
                challenge to begin with - but it's easy to promote maintenance fix from 3.6
                to 3.7 if 3.7 hasn't been refactored mercilessly. I guess this is why you
                need serious test functionality in place or this thing falls down like a
                house of cards.

                Any input from anyone doing XP in a similar environment.
                1) Commercial Product
                2) Parallel Version Development

                Thanks

                Barry Gervin
                bgervin@...
              • Geoffrey Clements
                Hi, ... list ... Wait another week or two. You ll see what I mean. Usually when I participate in a mailing list I expect an occasional reply. Perhaps no one
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                  Hi,

                  > Geoff,
                  >
                  > > Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this
                  list
                  > > is just a big love fest for the XP principals.
                  >
                  > Having only been on this list for a week, I am curious, about your
                  > expectations:

                  Wait another week or two. You'll see what I mean.

                  Usually when I participate in a mailing list I expect an occasional reply.
                  Perhaps no one cares about what I have to say, or what I have to say is just
                  too dumb to comment on, but if it is, someone set me straight. Maybe its
                  just the high traffic. Maybe no one is reading anything unless its from Kent
                  Beck, Ron Jefferes, Robert Martin, Mike Feathers, (hey Mike want those
                  CppUnit BeOS diffs or what?), and one or two others.

                  I made what I thought was an interesting comment about a hieracy of XP teams
                  to manage/implement a larger project. Not one response. In fact, except for
                  one or two personal responses, I think this is the only response anyone has
                  made to one of my postings. And in order to get it, I had to be a complete
                  jerk. (Sorry about that by the way.)

                  The whole thread about flexability in XP left a abd taste in my mouth. Its
                  like everyone here is a zealot. Maybe its just the excitement about XP. I
                  agree with Dave Thomas. XP needs to be flexible. The whole point of XP is to
                  reduce risk. If you mandate how XP MUST be impemented you are increasing
                  risk by not being able to incorporate new developements into XP, or driving
                  people away becasue they jsut can't implement all of XP.

                  I bet there are a few XP/UML/Patterns/Refactoring folks who think that XP
                  has a lot of good in it but can't stomach it because of its inability to
                  integrate with other methodologies.

                  > I want to learn more about this methodology. It seems to me that the best
                  > way to do this is to read the comments (and evangelizing) of those who are
                  > in favor of it, as well as the comments of skeptics who are unsure, or
                  even
                  > outright against it.

                  Everything you need to know is in the XP book and Martin Fowler's
                  Refactoring book.

                  I think there is more power for the working developer in Hunt and Thomas'
                  Pragmatic Programmer in combination with Fowler's Refactoring book.

                  >
                  > There seems to be a lot like me (the lurker flood showed that), several
                  > practictioners, and some skeptics. I am getting what I came for, I am glad
                  > there are evangelists, and the skeptics are voicing valid questions--and
                  not
                  > getting flamed, but instead generating discussion.
                  >
                  > So my question is what did you expect a mailing list about Extreme
                  > Programming to be if not an exposition of its principles?
                  >
                  > Best,
                  > Bill
                  >
                  >
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                • Ron Jeffries
                  According to my email files, you have posted 22 times out of about 1200 total postings, about 1/60. I ve posted over 100, which suggests that I ve so far
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                    According to my email files, you have posted 22 times out of about 1200
                    total postings, about 1/60. I've posted over 100, which suggests that I've
                    so far replied to 1/12 of the postings. Of those, one of them (not counting
                    the private one) was to you. So I guess I owe you one ... ;->

                    Stick around,

                    Ron

                    At 02:33 PM 2/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
                    >Hi,
                    >
                    > > Geoff,
                    > >
                    > > > Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this
                    >list
                    > > > is just a big love fest for the XP principals.
                    > >
                    > > Having only been on this list for a week, I am curious, about your
                    > > expectations:
                    >
                    >Wait another week or two. You'll see what I mean.
                    >
                    >Usually when I participate in a mailing list I expect an occasional reply.
                    >Perhaps no one cares about what I have to say, or what I have to say is just
                    >too dumb to comment on, but if it is, someone set me straight. Maybe its
                    >just the high traffic. Maybe no one is reading anything unless its from Kent
                    >Beck, Ron Jefferes, Robert Martin, Mike Feathers, (hey Mike want those
                    >CppUnit BeOS diffs or what?), and one or two others.
                    >
                    >I made what I thought was an interesting comment about a hieracy of XP teams
                    >to manage/implement a larger project. Not one response. In fact, except for
                    >one or two personal responses, I think this is the only response anyone has
                    >made to one of my postings. And in order to get it, I had to be a complete
                    >jerk. (Sorry about that by the way.)
                    >
                    >The whole thread about flexability in XP left a abd taste in my mouth. Its
                    >like everyone here is a zealot. Maybe its just the excitement about XP. I
                    >agree with Dave Thomas. XP needs to be flexible. The whole point of XP is to
                    >reduce risk. If you mandate how XP MUST be impemented you are increasing
                    >risk by not being able to incorporate new developements into XP, or driving
                    >people away becasue they jsut can't implement all of XP.
                    >
                    >I bet there are a few XP/UML/Patterns/Refactoring folks who think that XP
                    >has a lot of good in it but can't stomach it because of its inability to
                    >integrate with other methodologies.
                    >
                    > > I want to learn more about this methodology. It seems to me that the best
                    > > way to do this is to read the comments (and evangelizing) of those who are
                    > > in favor of it, as well as the comments of skeptics who are unsure, or
                    >even
                    > > outright against it.
                    >
                    >Everything you need to know is in the XP book and Martin Fowler's
                    >Refactoring book.
                    >
                    >I think there is more power for the working developer in Hunt and Thomas'
                    >Pragmatic Programmer in combination with Fowler's Refactoring book.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > There seems to be a lot like me (the lurker flood showed that), several
                    > > practictioners, and some skeptics. I am getting what I came for, I am glad
                    > > there are evangelists, and the skeptics are voicing valid questions--and
                    >not
                    > > getting flamed, but instead generating discussion.
                    > >
                    > > So my question is what did you expect a mailing list about Extreme
                    > > Programming to be if not an exposition of its principles?
                    > >
                    > > Best,
                    > > Bill
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                    > >
                    > > -- Create a poll/survey for your group!
                    > > -- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=extremeprogramming&m=1
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
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                    >


                    Ron Jeffries
                    Extreme Programming Training and Consultation
                    www.XProgramming.com
                  • Mike Schneider
                    Barry, Clearcase works very well for this as it versions directories, as well as, files. The merge tools are good, and multisite support is available. It is a
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                      Barry,

                      Clearcase works very well for this as it versions directories, as well as, files.

                      The merge tools are good, and multisite support is available.

                      It is a Rational Product  www.rational.com

                      You can email directly if you have detailed questions (Brad can probably add value to this :-)

                      Mike

                      Barry Gervin wrote:

                      This sort of relates to the OpenSource question.

                      The project that I'm working on is a commercial product development and I'm
                      trying to visualize how things will be affected if we were to apply the XP
                      principles.

                      The way our release cycles work is when we have finished a version (say 3.6)
                      we release it to our customers who are ready for a release. We start to work
                      on the next version (3.7). In the background however our maintenance team
                      does some maintenance on the last version (3.6). Furthermore, if we have a
                      big module that will take some time & iterations to get right, we may start
                      working on 3.8 as well. By the time 3.7 is ready, we release it to customers
                      who are ready for 3.7. Some customers may still stay at 3.6 and eventually
                      upgrade to 4.0. They may need some interim fixes, they may even need a logic
                      change.

                      The challenging part of this is to refactor mercilessly. I guess this is a
                      challenge to begin with - but it's easy to promote maintenance fix from 3.6
                      to 3.7 if 3.7 hasn't been refactored mercilessly. I guess this is why you
                      need serious test functionality in place or this thing falls down like a
                      house of cards.

                      Any input from anyone doing XP in a similar environment.
                              1) Commercial Product
                              2) Parallel Version Development

                      Thanks

                      Barry Gervin
                      bgervin@...

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                      Structural Dynamics Research Corp         Tel:   (513) 576-2935
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                        "The best performance improvement is the transition from the 
                         nonworking state to the working state" - John Ousterhout
                       
                    • Mike Schneider
                      Geoff, If that is you concerns, please hold out. I would value your comments. Many people on this list are still trying to understand the relationships
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                        Geoff,

                        If that is you concerns, please hold out.  I would value your comments.  Many people
                        on this list are still trying to understand the relationships between the
                        principles.

                        If XP states that you must use all principles to truly do XP, than you have to learn
                        and get some practice using the principles before you can "ask the dirty questions".

                        Learning process

                        1) Learn vocabulary
                        2) Practice making sentences
                        3) Write paragraphs
                        4) Write Stories
                        5)  Questions the meanings of the words

                        I am in the 1,2,3 cycles right now.  I am interested in scaling XP, but am working on
                        getting the handle on XP for small projects right now.

                        The XP Immersion course really helped with the vocabulary.  A couple of small
                        projects helped with the "making sentences out of the words".

                        Soon we will be looking at larger projects, I think that critical questions will be asked
                        at that time.

                        Bail if you need to, but I hope that you will continue to add to the group.

                        Mike

                        Geoffrey Clements wrote:

                        Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this list
                        is just a big love fest for the XP principals.

                        geoff

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Bob Oliver" <oliverb@...>
                        To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 12:05 PM
                        Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....

                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: Robert C. Martin [mailto:rmartin@...]
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:57 AM
                        > > To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
                        > > Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....
                        > >
                        > > Hello Alan, nice to hear from you again.
                        > >
                        > > Uncle Bob.
                        >
                        > Well, I just wanted to say goodbye.  Why would the 400
                        > or so of us who are not Alan care that you find it nice
                        > to hear from him?
                        >
                        > Is this what you had in mind when you started this group?
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Bob Oliver
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                        >
                        >

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                        Michael L. Schneider                      Email: Michael.Schneider@...
                        Structural Dynamics Research Corp         Tel:   (513) 576-2935
                        Milford OH, 45150                         Group: Software Process Group
                        
                          "The best performance improvement is the transition from the 
                           nonworking state to the working state" - John Ousterhout
                         
                      • Geoffrey Clements
                        ... small ... Actually, I d really like to go to one of these, but I m on the wrong coast, and I can t afford it. (I d be paying for it out of my own pocket.)
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                          >The XP Immersion course really helped with the vocabulary. A couple of
                          small
                          >projects helped with the "making sentences out of the words".

                          Actually, I'd really like to go to one of these, but I'm on the wrong coast,
                          and I can't afford it. (I'd be paying for it out of my own pocket.)

                          >Bail if you need to, but I hope that you will continue to add to the group.

                          First, let me apologise again for being a jerk.

                          Pehaps if people understood that the volume on this list is getting to high.
                          Most messages are pretty high in content, but there is just too many to keep
                          up with, and sometimes they repeat, or just add a little to the discussion
                          in progress. Kind of like I'm doing now. (I'll shut up now.)


                          geoff
                        • Dave Thomas
                          ... There s another way of looking at this, though. You become immersed in something, learn its ways and its foibles, and, once initiated, become a staunch
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                            Mike Schneider <michael.schneider@...> writes:

                            > Learning process
                            >
                            > 1) Learn vocabulary
                            > 2) Practice making sentences
                            > 3) Write paragraphs
                            > 4) Write Stories
                            > 5) Questions the meanings of the words

                            There's another way of looking at this, though. You become immersed in
                            something, learn its ways and its foibles, and, once initiated, become
                            a staunch defender of the faith. (This isn't just XP, it's a reflection
                            of the affiliative nature of humans.) What you're doing becomes
                            "accepted wisdom". People who question it are ignorant outsiders.

                            Some of us are worried that XP, which we really want to succeed, has
                            some flaws. Before everyone becomes too entrenched, we'd like to be
                            able to discuss these.

                            That's all

                            Dave



                            --
                            Thomas Consulting.
                            Innovative and successful developments with Unix, Java, C, and C++.

                            Now in bookstores:
                            The Pragmatic Programmer. www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/ppbook/
                          • Don Wells
                            ... Not everyone agrees with the XP principals on everything. Explosions occasionally occur. It is purely coincidental that none have occured here yet. Don
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                              >> > it is just a big love fest for the XP principals.

                              Not everyone agrees with the XP principals on everything. Explosions
                              occasionally occur. It is purely coincidental that none have occured here
                              yet.


                              Don Wells
                            • Brad Appleton
                              ... I guess I can t turn down such a generous offer. Not that this necessarily has any strong relationship to XP (maybe it does and maybe it doesn t), but if
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 03:23:42PM -0500, Mike Schneider wrote:
                                > You can email directly if you have detailed questions
                                > (Brad can probably add value to this :-)

                                I guess I can't turn down such a generous offer. Not that this necessarily
                                has any strong relationship to XP (maybe it does and maybe it doesn't),
                                but if your looking for patterns or best-practices on using branching and
                                merging for parallel development, then allow me to direct your attention
                                to my ACME website at:

                                http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/acme/

                                In particular, look at the paper named "Streamed Lines", and (if you are
                                using ClearCase or Perforce) you might also look at the page entitled
                                "Common ClearCase Practice". The first paper describes about 4 dozen
                                patterns of branching/merging (not to mention a dozen or so pitfalls)
                                and how to use them together to manage parallel development efforts using
                                your version control tool. The second paper *briefly* describes a couple
                                hundred or so common ClearCase practices, including many practices about
                                branching and merging and labeling ("tagging" for CVS users).

                                Note that CVS adds some extra wrinkles to the branching and merging
                                problem because (unlike ClearCase or Perforce), it doesn't track points
                                of divergence (origin of a branch) or convergence (ancestry of merges).
                                CVS tracks the latest version on a branch very well. Its not so easy to
                                the initial version on a branch for several files. And CVS doesn't track
                                merging at all, so it can't readily determine which changes have already
                                been merged and which haven't the way ClearCase and Perforce and Bitkeeper
                                (and others) can.

                                Note that followups specific to branching/merging (and NOT to XP)
                                should probably be redirected to private email, or else to the
                                scm-patterns list or the cmtalk (formerly version-control) mailing
                                list.

                                Cheers!
                                --
                                Brad Appleton <bradapp@...> http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/
                                "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                              • Barry Gervin
                                Okay thanks very much for the tips on branching & merging. I m sure it will be helpful.... however, the reason I m asking here, is of course for XP insight and
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Okay thanks very much for the tips on branching & merging. I'm sure it will
                                  be helpful....

                                  however, the reason I'm asking here, is of course for XP insight and
                                  particularly how the whole refactoring process relates to parallel develop
                                  and how you manage that.

                                  Maybe let me throw this out...

                                  How can you possible refactor when parallel development is involved. Doesn't
                                  this make it very difficult to promote a maintenance change (bug fix or
                                  perhaps enhancement) to a class in a newer version when that new class has
                                  been totally blown to bits (because of refactoring) in the new version?

                                  The problem is not so bad when it's just maintenance - it's more like you
                                  have serious parallel development going on. Say 3.5 is your base release and
                                  you have two major enhancements A & B. You don't know if A will turn into
                                  3.6 and B 3.7, or the other way around. Or perhaps both will merge together
                                  into 3.6. Until the modules (which share a common database and rely on some
                                  common classes) are close to complete and have a release cycle planned
                                  concretely it's hard to refactor any of the base classes because then you
                                  make dependencies about them both being released together, or one before the
                                  other.

                                  My client maintains we can't refactor classes that exist in a prior released
                                  version because of these head aches. It's hard to disagree. Help me out!

                                  Barry Gervin


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Brad Appleton [mailto:bradapp@...]
                                  Sent: February 1, 2000 5:58 PM
                                  To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                  Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Parallel Version Development:
                                  Branching & Merging


                                  On Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 03:23:42PM -0500, Mike Schneider wrote:
                                  > You can email directly if you have detailed questions
                                  > (Brad can probably add value to this :-)

                                  I guess I can't turn down such a generous offer. Not that this necessarily
                                  has any strong relationship to XP (maybe it does and maybe it doesn't),
                                  but if your looking for patterns or best-practices on using branching and
                                  merging for parallel development, then allow me to direct your attention
                                  to my ACME website at:

                                  http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/acme/

                                  In particular, look at the paper named "Streamed Lines", and (if you are
                                  using ClearCase or Perforce) you might also look at the page entitled
                                  "Common ClearCase Practice". The first paper describes about 4 dozen
                                  patterns of branching/merging (not to mention a dozen or so pitfalls)
                                  and how to use them together to manage parallel development efforts using
                                  your version control tool. The second paper *briefly* describes a couple
                                  hundred or so common ClearCase practices, including many practices about
                                  branching and merging and labeling ("tagging" for CVS users).

                                  Note that CVS adds some extra wrinkles to the branching and merging
                                  problem because (unlike ClearCase or Perforce), it doesn't track points
                                  of divergence (origin of a branch) or convergence (ancestry of merges).
                                  CVS tracks the latest version on a branch very well. Its not so easy to
                                  the initial version on a branch for several files. And CVS doesn't track
                                  merging at all, so it can't readily determine which changes have already
                                  been merged and which haven't the way ClearCase and Perforce and Bitkeeper
                                  (and others) can.

                                  Note that followups specific to branching/merging (and NOT to XP)
                                  should probably be redirected to private email, or else to the
                                  scm-patterns list or the cmtalk (formerly version-control) mailing
                                  list.

                                  Cheers!
                                  --
                                  Brad Appleton <bradapp@...> http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/
                                  "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost

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                                • Andy Glew
                                  ... When I asked a similar question on the newsgroup prior to this mailing list - my question was actually about applying refactorings to code imported from,
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    > How can you possible refactor when parallel development is involved.
                                    >
                                    > My client maintains we can't refactor classes that exist in a prior released
                                    > version because of these head aches. It's hard to disagree. Help me out!

                                    When I asked a similar question on the newsgroup prior to this mailing list
                                    - my question was actually about applying refactorings to code imported
                                    from, and tracking, outside sources - the answer was pretty much
                                    "wrap up that code and try not to touch it". :-(

                                    But allow me to guess at some things that might help:

                                    Much of the problem is that many of our version control tools
                                    are file based - and class based tools are only a little bit better.
                                    When, e.g., a method in class A is patched, but that method has
                                    migrated to class B, all of the VC tools that I am familiar with will
                                    give up and report a conflict that has to be patched manually.

                                    However, there's another class of VC tools that is line based
                                    - Cray's old "deck of cards" based tool was like this. In the modern world,
                                    I'm not sure, but IBM Visual Age C++ / Java at least have the potential
                                    to act like this. In such a VC system, one can track the evolution of
                                    individual lines of code - so if a method has been moved, the VC
                                    system can see where it has been moved to, and take a stab at applying
                                    the patch.

                                    Please, if anyone is using Visual Age and can confirm that their code
                                    database provides line based VC, please tell me!

                                    ---

                                    Flip side: in typical file and class based VC systems, maybe refactoring
                                    makes patches harder to apply. But, at least you should be able to run the
                                    tests that come with the patch? Especially if you move methods,
                                    but leave the old method around delegating.
                                  • Ron Jeffries
                                    ... There s truth to this notion. What you can do is limited by what s published. Much refactoring doesn t impact the public API, and you can do that with
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      At 10:31 PM 2/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
                                      >My client maintains we can't refactor classes that exist in a prior released
                                      >version because of these head aches. It's hard to disagree. Help me out!

                                      There's truth to this notion. What you can do is limited by what's
                                      published. Much refactoring doesn't impact the public API, and you can do
                                      that with impunity. (The customer does have to load a consistent cut of the
                                      software, of course).

                                      Your tests can allow you to refactor where otherwise you might fear to
                                      tread. But the cost of change DOES jump up after publication. Only
                                      experience in the specific case will tell you whether it has jumped too high.

                                      Ron Jeffries
                                      Extreme Programming Training and Consultation
                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                    • Ron Jeffries
                                      ... Doctor, it hurts when I fork my versions ... Doctor, it hurts when I release bugs ... However, when you do, you do. So make fixing the problem identify the
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        At 10:31 PM 2/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
                                        >How can you possible refactor when parallel development is involved. Doesn't
                                        >this make it very difficult to promote a maintenance change (bug fix or
                                        >perhaps enhancement) to a class in a newer version when that new class has
                                        >been totally blown to bits (because of refactoring) in the new version?

                                        Doctor, it hurts when I fork my versions ...

                                        Doctor, it hurts when I release bugs ...

                                        However, when you do, you do. So make fixing the problem identify the
                                        problem in all versions, fixing it independently. Promote the Test Showing
                                        the Defect to all versions to prevent recurrence. Fixing the structure of
                                        the code is more important than added difficulty with testing/fixing. But
                                        if you are doing Unit Tests at 100% ab initio, the testing/fixing really
                                        will be cut way down.

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        Extreme Programming Training and Consultation
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                      • jorg.schaible@db.com
                                        Hi Berry, you may have a look at Perforce (http://www.perforce.com). The product is only available via the web, but it seems to fit perfectly your needs. You
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Berry,

                                          you may have a look at Perforce (http://www.perforce.com). The product is only
                                          available via the web, but it seems to fit perfectly your needs. You may have an
                                          impression of the product yourself (free two user version and you'll always get
                                          a 30 day evaluation license with any user number), have a look at a lot of "best
                                          strategies" material and from my experience I can only credit Perfroce's
                                          support.

                                          Regards,
                                          Jörg Schaible


                                          ---------------------------------------- Message History
                                          ----------------------------------------


                                          From: bgervin@... on 01/02/2000 18:58

                                          Please respond to extremeprogramming@egroups.com

                                          To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                          cc:
                                          Subject: [extremeprogramming] Parallel Version Development: Branching & Merging
                                        • Ruben Reifenberg
                                          Well, the problem did surely not come up with XP. Whenever we refactored (also before knowing the terms refactoring and XP ) we had the problem to promote
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Well, the problem did surely not come up with XP. Whenever we
                                            refactored (also before knowing the terms "refactoring" and "XP") we
                                            had the problem to promote fixes to later versions that were refactored.

                                            So I'm also generally interested in ideas how to manage it most
                                            efficiently...currently I try to focus on the benefits of refactoring
                                            and hope there are some advantages remaining also with the
                                            "promote-fixes-problem".
                                            E.g.
                                            "When it is not easy to promote the fix in the refactored version, you
                                            did not a good refactoring, because the code should become easier to
                                            maintain..."
                                            or maybe "There is a good chance that the refactoring made the
                                            maintainance fix redundant already." (?)
                                            If it did not, I also think you are in trouble if you have no test that
                                            covers the problem that was fixed.
                                            Greetings
                                            Ruben



                                            "barry gervin" <bgervi-@...> wrote:
                                            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/extremeprogramming/?start
                                            =1189
                                            > This sort of relates to the OpenSource question.
                                            >
                                            > The project that I'm working on is a commercial product development
                                            and I'm
                                            > trying to visualize how things will be affected if we were to apply
                                            the XP
                                            > principles.
                                            >
                                            > The way our release cycles work is when we have finished a version
                                            (say 3.6)
                                            > we release it to our customers who are ready for a release. We start
                                            to work
                                            > on the next version (3.7). In the background however our maintenance
                                            team
                                            > does some maintenance on the last version (3.6). Furthermore, if we
                                            have a
                                            > big module that will take some time & iterations to get right, we may
                                            start
                                            > working on 3.8 as well. By the time 3.7 is ready, we release it to
                                            customers
                                            > who are ready for 3.7. Some customers may still stay at 3.6 and
                                            eventually
                                            > upgrade to 4.0. They may need some interim fixes, they may even need
                                            a logic
                                            > change.
                                            >
                                            > The challenging part of this is to refactor mercilessly. I guess this
                                            is a
                                            > challenge to begin with - but it's easy to promote maintenance fix
                                            from 3.6
                                            > to 3.7 if 3.7 hasn't been refactored mercilessly. I guess this is why
                                            you
                                            > need serious test functionality in place or this thing falls down
                                            like a
                                            > house of cards.
                                            >
                                            > Any input from anyone doing XP in a similar environment.
                                            > 1) Commercial Product
                                            > 2) Parallel Version Development
                                            >
                                            > Thanks
                                            >
                                            > Barry Gervin
                                            > bgervin@...
                                            >
                                          • Fred George
                                            From: Barry Gervin [mailto:bgervin@gervin.com] Subject: [extremeprogramming] Parallel Version Development: Branching & Merging The project that I m working on
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              From: Barry Gervin [mailto:bgervin@...]
                                              Subject: [extremeprogramming] Parallel Version Development: Branching &
                                              Merging

                                              "The project that I'm working on is a commercial product development and I'm
                                              trying to visualize how things will be affected if we were to apply the XP
                                              principles.
                                              ...
                                              Any input from anyone doing XP in a similar environment.
                                              1) Commercial Product
                                              2) Parallel Version Development"

                                              Let me first say I have had no experience trying to address this problem.
                                              But, I have given it a lot of thought for my clients...

                                              Having two XP code bases evolve independently and go _days_ without
                                              integration is terribly scary, creating _fear_, one of the things XP tries
                                              to eliminate. Thus, your environment is not conducive to XP. But...

                                              I believe in Continuous Software Releasing. Rapid iterations combined with
                                              suites of tests should allow a product to be cut for release quickly. XP
                                              greatly facilitates this. It's legacy release structures and processes that
                                              inhibits Continuous Software Releasing.

                                              If a client wants (for new functions) or needs (defect correction), the
                                              client obtains the latest release. Maintenance becomes a core development
                                              function, with defects treated like any other engineering task. Indeed,
                                              maintenance programs have practiced Collective Code Ownership for years,
                                              fixing problems in whatever component was necessary.

                                              Who objects to this? Clients are afraid of new software because its quality
                                              is suspect. XP's object design, refactoring, and test practices mitigate
                                              this problem, although it would take time to convince a client that
                                              tomorrow's code is _more_ reliable than today's (more test cases, more eyes
                                              have seen it, etc.).

                                              Traditional test organizations may object: They want to hold code hostage
                                              for months before "approving" it for release. XP encourages the functional
                                              tests to be developed in parallel to the code, and run as the code is
                                              developed. At most, a few days of additional validation should suffice.

                                              One lesson learned from our JIT manufacturing brethren is that if a process
                                              needs to be improved by 20%, it is just tweaked. If a process needs to be
                                              improved 500%, new thinking kicks in and new solutions emerge. JIT was
                                              borne of just such thinking.

                                              So you challenge is to recognize and measure the horrible cost of
                                              integration. To drive out that cost, process changes would need to be
                                              introduced. And the journey to Continuous Software Releasing begins.

                                              Fred
                                              mailto:FredGeorge@...
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