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[extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....

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  • Bill Caputo
    Geoff, ... Having only been on this list for a week, I am curious, about your expectations: I want to learn more about this methodology. It seems to me that
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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      Geoff,

      > Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this list
      > is just a big love fest for the XP principals.

      Having only been on this list for a week, I am curious, about your
      expectations:

      I want to learn more about this methodology. It seems to me that the best
      way to do this is to read the comments (and evangelizing) of those who are
      in favor of it, as well as the comments of skeptics who are unsure, or even
      outright against it.

      There seems to be a lot like me (the lurker flood showed that), several
      practictioners, and some skeptics. I am getting what I came for, I am glad
      there are evangelists, and the skeptics are voicing valid questions--and not
      getting flamed, but instead generating discussion.

      So my question is what did you expect a mailing list about Extreme
      Programming to be if not an exposition of its principles?

      Best,
      Bill
    • Alan Francis
      I m Alan, one of the two Brits (three is you count Mr Fowler) who attended XPImmersionOne, so Hi to anyone else who was there... A. -- Alan C Francis
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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        I'm Alan, one of the two Brits (three is you count Mr Fowler) who attended
        XPImmersionOne, so Hi to anyone else who was there...

        A.
        --
        Alan C Francis <alanf@...> [ http://www.owl.co.uk/ ]
        I would never die for my beliefs. I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
      • Robert C. Martin
        Hello Alan, nice to hear from you again. Uncle Bob.
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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          Hello Alan, nice to hear from you again.

          Uncle Bob.

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Alan Francis [mailto:alanf@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:33 AM
          > To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
          > Subject: [extremeprogramming] Just wanted to say hello....
          >
          >
          > I'm Alan, one of the two Brits (three is you count Mr Fowler)
          > who attended
          > XPImmersionOne, so Hi to anyone else who was there...
          >
          > A.
          > --
          > Alan C Francis <alanf@...> [ http://www.owl.co.uk/ ]
          > I would never die for my beliefs. I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Mark Strecker
          Hello Alan, It s good to hear from you again. Mark
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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            Hello Alan,

               It's good to hear from you again.

            Mark

            Alan Francis wrote:

            I'm Alan, one of the two Brits (three is you count Mr Fowler)  who attended
            XPImmersionOne, so Hi to anyone else who was there...

            A.
            --
            Alan C Francis <alanf@...> [ http://www.owl.co.uk/ ]
            I would never die for my beliefs. I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell

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          • Alan Francis
            Hi Bob, Hi Mark... I attempted to join the lista while ago, but cheerily failed to properly read the initial mail that I had to reply-to. I spent a few weeks
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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              Hi Bob, Hi Mark...

              I attempted to join the lista while ago, but cheerily failed to properly
              read the initial mail that I had to reply-to. I spent a few weeks wondering
              why there was no traffic on the list :-)

              A.
              --
              Alan C Francis <alanf@...> [ http://www.owl.co.uk/ ]
              I would never die for my beliefs. I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell




              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mark Strecker <Mark.Strecker@...>
              To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
              Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:06 PM
              Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....


              >Hello Alan,
              >
              > It's good to hear from you again.
              >
              >Mark
              >
              >Alan Francis wrote:
              >
              >> I'm Alan, one of the two Brits (three is you count Mr Fowler) who
              attended
              >> XPImmersionOne, so Hi to anyone else who was there...
              >>
              >> A.
              >> --
              >> Alan C Francis <alanf@...> [ http://www.owl.co.uk/ ]
              >> I would never die for my beliefs. I might be wrong. - Bertrand Russell
              >>
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            • Bob Oliver
              ... Well, I just wanted to say goodbye. Why would the 400 or so of us who are not Alan care that you find it nice to hear from him? Is this what you had in
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Robert C. Martin [mailto:rmartin@...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:57 AM
                > To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
                > Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....
                >
                > Hello Alan, nice to hear from you again.
                >
                > Uncle Bob.

                Well, I just wanted to say goodbye. Why would the 400
                or so of us who are not Alan care that you find it nice
                to hear from him?

                Is this what you had in mind when you started this group?

                Regards,

                Bob Oliver
              • Geoffrey Clements
                Actually, I m just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this list is just a big love fest for the XP principals. geoff ... From: Bob Oliver
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                  Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this list
                  is just a big love fest for the XP principals.


                  geoff


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Bob Oliver" <oliverb@...>
                  To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 12:05 PM
                  Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....


                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Robert C. Martin [mailto:rmartin@...]
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:57 AM
                  > > To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
                  > > Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....
                  > >
                  > > Hello Alan, nice to hear from you again.
                  > >
                  > > Uncle Bob.
                  >
                  > Well, I just wanted to say goodbye. Why would the 400
                  > or so of us who are not Alan care that you find it nice
                  > to hear from him?
                  >
                  > Is this what you had in mind when you started this group?
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Bob Oliver
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Barry Gervin
                  This sort of relates to the OpenSource question. The project that I m working on is a commercial product development and I m trying to visualize how things
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                    This sort of relates to the OpenSource question.

                    The project that I'm working on is a commercial product development and I'm
                    trying to visualize how things will be affected if we were to apply the XP
                    principles.

                    The way our release cycles work is when we have finished a version (say 3.6)
                    we release it to our customers who are ready for a release. We start to work
                    on the next version (3.7). In the background however our maintenance team
                    does some maintenance on the last version (3.6). Furthermore, if we have a
                    big module that will take some time & iterations to get right, we may start
                    working on 3.8 as well. By the time 3.7 is ready, we release it to customers
                    who are ready for 3.7. Some customers may still stay at 3.6 and eventually
                    upgrade to 4.0. They may need some interim fixes, they may even need a logic
                    change.

                    The challenging part of this is to refactor mercilessly. I guess this is a
                    challenge to begin with - but it's easy to promote maintenance fix from 3.6
                    to 3.7 if 3.7 hasn't been refactored mercilessly. I guess this is why you
                    need serious test functionality in place or this thing falls down like a
                    house of cards.

                    Any input from anyone doing XP in a similar environment.
                    1) Commercial Product
                    2) Parallel Version Development

                    Thanks

                    Barry Gervin
                    bgervin@...
                  • Geoffrey Clements
                    Hi, ... list ... Wait another week or two. You ll see what I mean. Usually when I participate in a mailing list I expect an occasional reply. Perhaps no one
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                      Hi,

                      > Geoff,
                      >
                      > > Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this
                      list
                      > > is just a big love fest for the XP principals.
                      >
                      > Having only been on this list for a week, I am curious, about your
                      > expectations:

                      Wait another week or two. You'll see what I mean.

                      Usually when I participate in a mailing list I expect an occasional reply.
                      Perhaps no one cares about what I have to say, or what I have to say is just
                      too dumb to comment on, but if it is, someone set me straight. Maybe its
                      just the high traffic. Maybe no one is reading anything unless its from Kent
                      Beck, Ron Jefferes, Robert Martin, Mike Feathers, (hey Mike want those
                      CppUnit BeOS diffs or what?), and one or two others.

                      I made what I thought was an interesting comment about a hieracy of XP teams
                      to manage/implement a larger project. Not one response. In fact, except for
                      one or two personal responses, I think this is the only response anyone has
                      made to one of my postings. And in order to get it, I had to be a complete
                      jerk. (Sorry about that by the way.)

                      The whole thread about flexability in XP left a abd taste in my mouth. Its
                      like everyone here is a zealot. Maybe its just the excitement about XP. I
                      agree with Dave Thomas. XP needs to be flexible. The whole point of XP is to
                      reduce risk. If you mandate how XP MUST be impemented you are increasing
                      risk by not being able to incorporate new developements into XP, or driving
                      people away becasue they jsut can't implement all of XP.

                      I bet there are a few XP/UML/Patterns/Refactoring folks who think that XP
                      has a lot of good in it but can't stomach it because of its inability to
                      integrate with other methodologies.

                      > I want to learn more about this methodology. It seems to me that the best
                      > way to do this is to read the comments (and evangelizing) of those who are
                      > in favor of it, as well as the comments of skeptics who are unsure, or
                      even
                      > outright against it.

                      Everything you need to know is in the XP book and Martin Fowler's
                      Refactoring book.

                      I think there is more power for the working developer in Hunt and Thomas'
                      Pragmatic Programmer in combination with Fowler's Refactoring book.

                      >
                      > There seems to be a lot like me (the lurker flood showed that), several
                      > practictioners, and some skeptics. I am getting what I came for, I am glad
                      > there are evangelists, and the skeptics are voicing valid questions--and
                      not
                      > getting flamed, but instead generating discussion.
                      >
                      > So my question is what did you expect a mailing list about Extreme
                      > Programming to be if not an exposition of its principles?
                      >
                      > Best,
                      > Bill
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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                    • Ron Jeffries
                      According to my email files, you have posted 22 times out of about 1200 total postings, about 1/60. I ve posted over 100, which suggests that I ve so far
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                        According to my email files, you have posted 22 times out of about 1200
                        total postings, about 1/60. I've posted over 100, which suggests that I've
                        so far replied to 1/12 of the postings. Of those, one of them (not counting
                        the private one) was to you. So I guess I owe you one ... ;->

                        Stick around,

                        Ron

                        At 02:33 PM 2/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
                        >Hi,
                        >
                        > > Geoff,
                        > >
                        > > > Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this
                        >list
                        > > > is just a big love fest for the XP principals.
                        > >
                        > > Having only been on this list for a week, I am curious, about your
                        > > expectations:
                        >
                        >Wait another week or two. You'll see what I mean.
                        >
                        >Usually when I participate in a mailing list I expect an occasional reply.
                        >Perhaps no one cares about what I have to say, or what I have to say is just
                        >too dumb to comment on, but if it is, someone set me straight. Maybe its
                        >just the high traffic. Maybe no one is reading anything unless its from Kent
                        >Beck, Ron Jefferes, Robert Martin, Mike Feathers, (hey Mike want those
                        >CppUnit BeOS diffs or what?), and one or two others.
                        >
                        >I made what I thought was an interesting comment about a hieracy of XP teams
                        >to manage/implement a larger project. Not one response. In fact, except for
                        >one or two personal responses, I think this is the only response anyone has
                        >made to one of my postings. And in order to get it, I had to be a complete
                        >jerk. (Sorry about that by the way.)
                        >
                        >The whole thread about flexability in XP left a abd taste in my mouth. Its
                        >like everyone here is a zealot. Maybe its just the excitement about XP. I
                        >agree with Dave Thomas. XP needs to be flexible. The whole point of XP is to
                        >reduce risk. If you mandate how XP MUST be impemented you are increasing
                        >risk by not being able to incorporate new developements into XP, or driving
                        >people away becasue they jsut can't implement all of XP.
                        >
                        >I bet there are a few XP/UML/Patterns/Refactoring folks who think that XP
                        >has a lot of good in it but can't stomach it because of its inability to
                        >integrate with other methodologies.
                        >
                        > > I want to learn more about this methodology. It seems to me that the best
                        > > way to do this is to read the comments (and evangelizing) of those who are
                        > > in favor of it, as well as the comments of skeptics who are unsure, or
                        >even
                        > > outright against it.
                        >
                        >Everything you need to know is in the XP book and Martin Fowler's
                        >Refactoring book.
                        >
                        >I think there is more power for the working developer in Hunt and Thomas'
                        >Pragmatic Programmer in combination with Fowler's Refactoring book.
                        >
                        > >
                        > > There seems to be a lot like me (the lurker flood showed that), several
                        > > practictioners, and some skeptics. I am getting what I came for, I am glad
                        > > there are evangelists, and the skeptics are voicing valid questions--and
                        >not
                        > > getting flamed, but instead generating discussion.
                        > >
                        > > So my question is what did you expect a mailing list about Extreme
                        > > Programming to be if not an exposition of its principles?
                        > >
                        > > Best,
                        > > Bill
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                        > >
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                        > >
                        > > -- Create a poll/survey for your group!
                        > > -- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=extremeprogramming&m=1
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
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                        Ron Jeffries
                        Extreme Programming Training and Consultation
                        www.XProgramming.com
                      • Mike Schneider
                        Barry, Clearcase works very well for this as it versions directories, as well as, files. The merge tools are good, and multisite support is available. It is a
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                          Barry,

                          Clearcase works very well for this as it versions directories, as well as, files.

                          The merge tools are good, and multisite support is available.

                          It is a Rational Product  www.rational.com

                          You can email directly if you have detailed questions (Brad can probably add value to this :-)

                          Mike

                          Barry Gervin wrote:

                          This sort of relates to the OpenSource question.

                          The project that I'm working on is a commercial product development and I'm
                          trying to visualize how things will be affected if we were to apply the XP
                          principles.

                          The way our release cycles work is when we have finished a version (say 3.6)
                          we release it to our customers who are ready for a release. We start to work
                          on the next version (3.7). In the background however our maintenance team
                          does some maintenance on the last version (3.6). Furthermore, if we have a
                          big module that will take some time & iterations to get right, we may start
                          working on 3.8 as well. By the time 3.7 is ready, we release it to customers
                          who are ready for 3.7. Some customers may still stay at 3.6 and eventually
                          upgrade to 4.0. They may need some interim fixes, they may even need a logic
                          change.

                          The challenging part of this is to refactor mercilessly. I guess this is a
                          challenge to begin with - but it's easy to promote maintenance fix from 3.6
                          to 3.7 if 3.7 hasn't been refactored mercilessly. I guess this is why you
                          need serious test functionality in place or this thing falls down like a
                          house of cards.

                          Any input from anyone doing XP in a similar environment.
                                  1) Commercial Product
                                  2) Parallel Version Development

                          Thanks

                          Barry Gervin
                          bgervin@...

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                          Structural Dynamics Research Corp         Tel:   (513) 576-2935
                          Milford OH, 45150                         Group: Software Process Group
                          
                            "The best performance improvement is the transition from the 
                             nonworking state to the working state" - John Ousterhout
                           
                        • Mike Schneider
                          Geoff, If that is you concerns, please hold out. I would value your comments. Many people on this list are still trying to understand the relationships
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                            Geoff,

                            If that is you concerns, please hold out.  I would value your comments.  Many people
                            on this list are still trying to understand the relationships between the
                            principles.

                            If XP states that you must use all principles to truly do XP, than you have to learn
                            and get some practice using the principles before you can "ask the dirty questions".

                            Learning process

                            1) Learn vocabulary
                            2) Practice making sentences
                            3) Write paragraphs
                            4) Write Stories
                            5)  Questions the meanings of the words

                            I am in the 1,2,3 cycles right now.  I am interested in scaling XP, but am working on
                            getting the handle on XP for small projects right now.

                            The XP Immersion course really helped with the vocabulary.  A couple of small
                            projects helped with the "making sentences out of the words".

                            Soon we will be looking at larger projects, I think that critical questions will be asked
                            at that time.

                            Bail if you need to, but I hope that you will continue to add to the group.

                            Mike

                            Geoffrey Clements wrote:

                            Actually, I'm just about to bail out too. I get the feeling that this list
                            is just a big love fest for the XP principals.

                            geoff

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Bob Oliver" <oliverb@...>
                            To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 12:05 PM
                            Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....

                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: Robert C. Martin [mailto:rmartin@...]
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:57 AM
                            > > To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
                            > > Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Just wanted to say hello....
                            > >
                            > > Hello Alan, nice to hear from you again.
                            > >
                            > > Uncle Bob.
                            >
                            > Well, I just wanted to say goodbye.  Why would the 400
                            > or so of us who are not Alan care that you find it nice
                            > to hear from him?
                            >
                            > Is this what you had in mind when you started this group?
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            >
                            > Bob Oliver
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >

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                            Michael L. Schneider                      Email: Michael.Schneider@...
                            Structural Dynamics Research Corp         Tel:   (513) 576-2935
                            Milford OH, 45150                         Group: Software Process Group
                            
                              "The best performance improvement is the transition from the 
                               nonworking state to the working state" - John Ousterhout
                             
                          • Geoffrey Clements
                            ... small ... Actually, I d really like to go to one of these, but I m on the wrong coast, and I can t afford it. (I d be paying for it out of my own pocket.)
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                              >The XP Immersion course really helped with the vocabulary. A couple of
                              small
                              >projects helped with the "making sentences out of the words".

                              Actually, I'd really like to go to one of these, but I'm on the wrong coast,
                              and I can't afford it. (I'd be paying for it out of my own pocket.)

                              >Bail if you need to, but I hope that you will continue to add to the group.

                              First, let me apologise again for being a jerk.

                              Pehaps if people understood that the volume on this list is getting to high.
                              Most messages are pretty high in content, but there is just too many to keep
                              up with, and sometimes they repeat, or just add a little to the discussion
                              in progress. Kind of like I'm doing now. (I'll shut up now.)


                              geoff
                            • Dave Thomas
                              ... There s another way of looking at this, though. You become immersed in something, learn its ways and its foibles, and, once initiated, become a staunch
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                                Mike Schneider <michael.schneider@...> writes:

                                > Learning process
                                >
                                > 1) Learn vocabulary
                                > 2) Practice making sentences
                                > 3) Write paragraphs
                                > 4) Write Stories
                                > 5) Questions the meanings of the words

                                There's another way of looking at this, though. You become immersed in
                                something, learn its ways and its foibles, and, once initiated, become
                                a staunch defender of the faith. (This isn't just XP, it's a reflection
                                of the affiliative nature of humans.) What you're doing becomes
                                "accepted wisdom". People who question it are ignorant outsiders.

                                Some of us are worried that XP, which we really want to succeed, has
                                some flaws. Before everyone becomes too entrenched, we'd like to be
                                able to discuss these.

                                That's all

                                Dave



                                --
                                Thomas Consulting.
                                Innovative and successful developments with Unix, Java, C, and C++.

                                Now in bookstores:
                                The Pragmatic Programmer. www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/ppbook/
                              • Don Wells
                                ... Not everyone agrees with the XP principals on everything. Explosions occasionally occur. It is purely coincidental that none have occured here yet. Don
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                                  >> > it is just a big love fest for the XP principals.

                                  Not everyone agrees with the XP principals on everything. Explosions
                                  occasionally occur. It is purely coincidental that none have occured here
                                  yet.


                                  Don Wells
                                • Brad Appleton
                                  ... I guess I can t turn down such a generous offer. Not that this necessarily has any strong relationship to XP (maybe it does and maybe it doesn t), but if
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 03:23:42PM -0500, Mike Schneider wrote:
                                    > You can email directly if you have detailed questions
                                    > (Brad can probably add value to this :-)

                                    I guess I can't turn down such a generous offer. Not that this necessarily
                                    has any strong relationship to XP (maybe it does and maybe it doesn't),
                                    but if your looking for patterns or best-practices on using branching and
                                    merging for parallel development, then allow me to direct your attention
                                    to my ACME website at:

                                    http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/acme/

                                    In particular, look at the paper named "Streamed Lines", and (if you are
                                    using ClearCase or Perforce) you might also look at the page entitled
                                    "Common ClearCase Practice". The first paper describes about 4 dozen
                                    patterns of branching/merging (not to mention a dozen or so pitfalls)
                                    and how to use them together to manage parallel development efforts using
                                    your version control tool. The second paper *briefly* describes a couple
                                    hundred or so common ClearCase practices, including many practices about
                                    branching and merging and labeling ("tagging" for CVS users).

                                    Note that CVS adds some extra wrinkles to the branching and merging
                                    problem because (unlike ClearCase or Perforce), it doesn't track points
                                    of divergence (origin of a branch) or convergence (ancestry of merges).
                                    CVS tracks the latest version on a branch very well. Its not so easy to
                                    the initial version on a branch for several files. And CVS doesn't track
                                    merging at all, so it can't readily determine which changes have already
                                    been merged and which haven't the way ClearCase and Perforce and Bitkeeper
                                    (and others) can.

                                    Note that followups specific to branching/merging (and NOT to XP)
                                    should probably be redirected to private email, or else to the
                                    scm-patterns list or the cmtalk (formerly version-control) mailing
                                    list.

                                    Cheers!
                                    --
                                    Brad Appleton <bradapp@...> http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/
                                    "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                                  • Barry Gervin
                                    Okay thanks very much for the tips on branching & merging. I m sure it will be helpful.... however, the reason I m asking here, is of course for XP insight and
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Okay thanks very much for the tips on branching & merging. I'm sure it will
                                      be helpful....

                                      however, the reason I'm asking here, is of course for XP insight and
                                      particularly how the whole refactoring process relates to parallel develop
                                      and how you manage that.

                                      Maybe let me throw this out...

                                      How can you possible refactor when parallel development is involved. Doesn't
                                      this make it very difficult to promote a maintenance change (bug fix or
                                      perhaps enhancement) to a class in a newer version when that new class has
                                      been totally blown to bits (because of refactoring) in the new version?

                                      The problem is not so bad when it's just maintenance - it's more like you
                                      have serious parallel development going on. Say 3.5 is your base release and
                                      you have two major enhancements A & B. You don't know if A will turn into
                                      3.6 and B 3.7, or the other way around. Or perhaps both will merge together
                                      into 3.6. Until the modules (which share a common database and rely on some
                                      common classes) are close to complete and have a release cycle planned
                                      concretely it's hard to refactor any of the base classes because then you
                                      make dependencies about them both being released together, or one before the
                                      other.

                                      My client maintains we can't refactor classes that exist in a prior released
                                      version because of these head aches. It's hard to disagree. Help me out!

                                      Barry Gervin


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Brad Appleton [mailto:bradapp@...]
                                      Sent: February 1, 2000 5:58 PM
                                      To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                      Subject: [extremeprogramming] Re: Parallel Version Development:
                                      Branching & Merging


                                      On Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 03:23:42PM -0500, Mike Schneider wrote:
                                      > You can email directly if you have detailed questions
                                      > (Brad can probably add value to this :-)

                                      I guess I can't turn down such a generous offer. Not that this necessarily
                                      has any strong relationship to XP (maybe it does and maybe it doesn't),
                                      but if your looking for patterns or best-practices on using branching and
                                      merging for parallel development, then allow me to direct your attention
                                      to my ACME website at:

                                      http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/acme/

                                      In particular, look at the paper named "Streamed Lines", and (if you are
                                      using ClearCase or Perforce) you might also look at the page entitled
                                      "Common ClearCase Practice". The first paper describes about 4 dozen
                                      patterns of branching/merging (not to mention a dozen or so pitfalls)
                                      and how to use them together to manage parallel development efforts using
                                      your version control tool. The second paper *briefly* describes a couple
                                      hundred or so common ClearCase practices, including many practices about
                                      branching and merging and labeling ("tagging" for CVS users).

                                      Note that CVS adds some extra wrinkles to the branching and merging
                                      problem because (unlike ClearCase or Perforce), it doesn't track points
                                      of divergence (origin of a branch) or convergence (ancestry of merges).
                                      CVS tracks the latest version on a branch very well. Its not so easy to
                                      the initial version on a branch for several files. And CVS doesn't track
                                      merging at all, so it can't readily determine which changes have already
                                      been merged and which haven't the way ClearCase and Perforce and Bitkeeper
                                      (and others) can.

                                      Note that followups specific to branching/merging (and NOT to XP)
                                      should probably be redirected to private email, or else to the
                                      scm-patterns list or the cmtalk (formerly version-control) mailing
                                      list.

                                      Cheers!
                                      --
                                      Brad Appleton <bradapp@...> http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/
                                      "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost

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                                    • Andy Glew
                                      ... When I asked a similar question on the newsgroup prior to this mailing list - my question was actually about applying refactorings to code imported from,
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                                        > How can you possible refactor when parallel development is involved.
                                        >
                                        > My client maintains we can't refactor classes that exist in a prior released
                                        > version because of these head aches. It's hard to disagree. Help me out!

                                        When I asked a similar question on the newsgroup prior to this mailing list
                                        - my question was actually about applying refactorings to code imported
                                        from, and tracking, outside sources - the answer was pretty much
                                        "wrap up that code and try not to touch it". :-(

                                        But allow me to guess at some things that might help:

                                        Much of the problem is that many of our version control tools
                                        are file based - and class based tools are only a little bit better.
                                        When, e.g., a method in class A is patched, but that method has
                                        migrated to class B, all of the VC tools that I am familiar with will
                                        give up and report a conflict that has to be patched manually.

                                        However, there's another class of VC tools that is line based
                                        - Cray's old "deck of cards" based tool was like this. In the modern world,
                                        I'm not sure, but IBM Visual Age C++ / Java at least have the potential
                                        to act like this. In such a VC system, one can track the evolution of
                                        individual lines of code - so if a method has been moved, the VC
                                        system can see where it has been moved to, and take a stab at applying
                                        the patch.

                                        Please, if anyone is using Visual Age and can confirm that their code
                                        database provides line based VC, please tell me!

                                        ---

                                        Flip side: in typical file and class based VC systems, maybe refactoring
                                        makes patches harder to apply. But, at least you should be able to run the
                                        tests that come with the patch? Especially if you move methods,
                                        but leave the old method around delegating.
                                      • Ron Jeffries
                                        ... There s truth to this notion. What you can do is limited by what s published. Much refactoring doesn t impact the public API, and you can do that with
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          At 10:31 PM 2/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
                                          >My client maintains we can't refactor classes that exist in a prior released
                                          >version because of these head aches. It's hard to disagree. Help me out!

                                          There's truth to this notion. What you can do is limited by what's
                                          published. Much refactoring doesn't impact the public API, and you can do
                                          that with impunity. (The customer does have to load a consistent cut of the
                                          software, of course).

                                          Your tests can allow you to refactor where otherwise you might fear to
                                          tread. But the cost of change DOES jump up after publication. Only
                                          experience in the specific case will tell you whether it has jumped too high.

                                          Ron Jeffries
                                          Extreme Programming Training and Consultation
                                          www.XProgramming.com
                                        • Ron Jeffries
                                          ... Doctor, it hurts when I fork my versions ... Doctor, it hurts when I release bugs ... However, when you do, you do. So make fixing the problem identify the
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            At 10:31 PM 2/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
                                            >How can you possible refactor when parallel development is involved. Doesn't
                                            >this make it very difficult to promote a maintenance change (bug fix or
                                            >perhaps enhancement) to a class in a newer version when that new class has
                                            >been totally blown to bits (because of refactoring) in the new version?

                                            Doctor, it hurts when I fork my versions ...

                                            Doctor, it hurts when I release bugs ...

                                            However, when you do, you do. So make fixing the problem identify the
                                            problem in all versions, fixing it independently. Promote the Test Showing
                                            the Defect to all versions to prevent recurrence. Fixing the structure of
                                            the code is more important than added difficulty with testing/fixing. But
                                            if you are doing Unit Tests at 100% ab initio, the testing/fixing really
                                            will be cut way down.

                                            Ron Jeffries
                                            Extreme Programming Training and Consultation
                                            www.XProgramming.com
                                          • jorg.schaible@db.com
                                            Hi Berry, you may have a look at Perforce (http://www.perforce.com). The product is only available via the web, but it seems to fit perfectly your needs. You
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi Berry,

                                              you may have a look at Perforce (http://www.perforce.com). The product is only
                                              available via the web, but it seems to fit perfectly your needs. You may have an
                                              impression of the product yourself (free two user version and you'll always get
                                              a 30 day evaluation license with any user number), have a look at a lot of "best
                                              strategies" material and from my experience I can only credit Perfroce's
                                              support.

                                              Regards,
                                              Jörg Schaible


                                              ---------------------------------------- Message History
                                              ----------------------------------------


                                              From: bgervin@... on 01/02/2000 18:58

                                              Please respond to extremeprogramming@egroups.com

                                              To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                              cc:
                                              Subject: [extremeprogramming] Parallel Version Development: Branching & Merging
                                            • Ruben Reifenberg
                                              Well, the problem did surely not come up with XP. Whenever we refactored (also before knowing the terms refactoring and XP ) we had the problem to promote
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Well, the problem did surely not come up with XP. Whenever we
                                                refactored (also before knowing the terms "refactoring" and "XP") we
                                                had the problem to promote fixes to later versions that were refactored.

                                                So I'm also generally interested in ideas how to manage it most
                                                efficiently...currently I try to focus on the benefits of refactoring
                                                and hope there are some advantages remaining also with the
                                                "promote-fixes-problem".
                                                E.g.
                                                "When it is not easy to promote the fix in the refactored version, you
                                                did not a good refactoring, because the code should become easier to
                                                maintain..."
                                                or maybe "There is a good chance that the refactoring made the
                                                maintainance fix redundant already." (?)
                                                If it did not, I also think you are in trouble if you have no test that
                                                covers the problem that was fixed.
                                                Greetings
                                                Ruben



                                                "barry gervin" <bgervi-@...> wrote:
                                                original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/extremeprogramming/?start
                                                =1189
                                                > This sort of relates to the OpenSource question.
                                                >
                                                > The project that I'm working on is a commercial product development
                                                and I'm
                                                > trying to visualize how things will be affected if we were to apply
                                                the XP
                                                > principles.
                                                >
                                                > The way our release cycles work is when we have finished a version
                                                (say 3.6)
                                                > we release it to our customers who are ready for a release. We start
                                                to work
                                                > on the next version (3.7). In the background however our maintenance
                                                team
                                                > does some maintenance on the last version (3.6). Furthermore, if we
                                                have a
                                                > big module that will take some time & iterations to get right, we may
                                                start
                                                > working on 3.8 as well. By the time 3.7 is ready, we release it to
                                                customers
                                                > who are ready for 3.7. Some customers may still stay at 3.6 and
                                                eventually
                                                > upgrade to 4.0. They may need some interim fixes, they may even need
                                                a logic
                                                > change.
                                                >
                                                > The challenging part of this is to refactor mercilessly. I guess this
                                                is a
                                                > challenge to begin with - but it's easy to promote maintenance fix
                                                from 3.6
                                                > to 3.7 if 3.7 hasn't been refactored mercilessly. I guess this is why
                                                you
                                                > need serious test functionality in place or this thing falls down
                                                like a
                                                > house of cards.
                                                >
                                                > Any input from anyone doing XP in a similar environment.
                                                > 1) Commercial Product
                                                > 2) Parallel Version Development
                                                >
                                                > Thanks
                                                >
                                                > Barry Gervin
                                                > bgervin@...
                                                >
                                              • Fred George
                                                From: Barry Gervin [mailto:bgervin@gervin.com] Subject: [extremeprogramming] Parallel Version Development: Branching & Merging The project that I m working on
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  From: Barry Gervin [mailto:bgervin@...]
                                                  Subject: [extremeprogramming] Parallel Version Development: Branching &
                                                  Merging

                                                  "The project that I'm working on is a commercial product development and I'm
                                                  trying to visualize how things will be affected if we were to apply the XP
                                                  principles.
                                                  ...
                                                  Any input from anyone doing XP in a similar environment.
                                                  1) Commercial Product
                                                  2) Parallel Version Development"

                                                  Let me first say I have had no experience trying to address this problem.
                                                  But, I have given it a lot of thought for my clients...

                                                  Having two XP code bases evolve independently and go _days_ without
                                                  integration is terribly scary, creating _fear_, one of the things XP tries
                                                  to eliminate. Thus, your environment is not conducive to XP. But...

                                                  I believe in Continuous Software Releasing. Rapid iterations combined with
                                                  suites of tests should allow a product to be cut for release quickly. XP
                                                  greatly facilitates this. It's legacy release structures and processes that
                                                  inhibits Continuous Software Releasing.

                                                  If a client wants (for new functions) or needs (defect correction), the
                                                  client obtains the latest release. Maintenance becomes a core development
                                                  function, with defects treated like any other engineering task. Indeed,
                                                  maintenance programs have practiced Collective Code Ownership for years,
                                                  fixing problems in whatever component was necessary.

                                                  Who objects to this? Clients are afraid of new software because its quality
                                                  is suspect. XP's object design, refactoring, and test practices mitigate
                                                  this problem, although it would take time to convince a client that
                                                  tomorrow's code is _more_ reliable than today's (more test cases, more eyes
                                                  have seen it, etc.).

                                                  Traditional test organizations may object: They want to hold code hostage
                                                  for months before "approving" it for release. XP encourages the functional
                                                  tests to be developed in parallel to the code, and run as the code is
                                                  developed. At most, a few days of additional validation should suffice.

                                                  One lesson learned from our JIT manufacturing brethren is that if a process
                                                  needs to be improved by 20%, it is just tweaked. If a process needs to be
                                                  improved 500%, new thinking kicks in and new solutions emerge. JIT was
                                                  borne of just such thinking.

                                                  So you challenge is to recognize and measure the horrible cost of
                                                  integration. To drive out that cost, process changes would need to be
                                                  introduced. And the journey to Continuous Software Releasing begins.

                                                  Fred
                                                  mailto:FredGeorge@...
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