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Re: [XP] Popularity of Extreme Programming? (discussion groups)

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  • Jeff Grigg
    ... Right. I d suspect that mailing list traffic is more an indicator of controversy than popularity (or success or any other such metric). The WikiPedia
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 5, 2006
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      --- William Pietri <william@s...> wrote:
      > Good point. If I'm compiling a number, aside from these two,
      > are there any others whose numbers I should include?
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/testdrivendevelopment/
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/
      >
      > Personally, I still suspect that mailing list traffic is a
      > dubious metric. The high-traffic periods that come to mind
      > involve people who came to argue about XP or who seemed
      > mainly interested in stirring things up. [...]

      Right. I'd suspect that mailing list traffic is more an indicator of
      controversy than popularity (or success or any other such metric).


      The WikiPedia article we're talking about is...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Programming


      Consider also
      news:comp.software.extreme-programming
      statistics at
      http://groups.google.com/group/comp.software.extreme-
      programming/about
      http://tinyurl.com/awhqe

      It's volume also peaked (quite dramatically!) around January of 2002.
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... There are a number of companies doing XP in the embedded arena. Maybe it s not as hard as it might seem ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com It is a bad
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 5, 2006
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        On Thursday, January 5, 2006, at 1:13:29 PM, Micron Engineering wrote:

        > Technically is not so important if a technology or a methodology is
        > popular or not but if it works or not. Personally I don't think that XP
        > may be useful in every application; I am involved in embedded
        > applications and applications related to industrial applications also
        > using PCs. In this field C and C++ (possibly not using .NET) are the
        > preferred languages but they are not very well supported by XP and
        > mothern technologies more related to Java and .NET. Obviously C and C++
        > developers may use oldest tools with more confidence; also tons of
        > libraries and source code exists from 20 or more years. Personally it is
        > difficult to me to find a way to predict time, memory space and cost
        > using Xp methodologies because some of them (i.e. refactoring) are
        > difficult to predict.

        There are a number of companies doing XP in the embedded arena.
        Maybe it's not as hard as it might seem ...

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        It is a bad plan that admits of no modifications. -- Publius Syrus (ca. 42 BCE)
      • Micron Engineering
        Jeff Langr ha scritto:Micron Engineering wrote: Technically is not so important if a technology or a methodology is popular or not but if it
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 5, 2006
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          Jeff Langr ha scritto:

          >Micron Engineering wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >>Technically is not so important if a technology or a methodology is
          >>popular or not but if it works or not. Personally I don't think that XP
          >>may be useful in every application; I am involved in embedded
          >>applications and applications related to industrial applications also
          >>using PCs.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >Greetings Micron,
          >
          >I don't think anyone here would claim that you can use XP in every
          >application.
          >
          Personally I don't agree. A methodology have to be so generic to be
          adaptable to most scemarios also including or excluding some steps.

          >I would figure the same applies to any other methodology.
          >However, you can apply some subset of XP practices in practically any
          >environment with success; most are time-tested and true techniques.
          >
          >
          Yes, of course. Also we may say that XP is a collection of some well
          established practices and some other originally new.

          >I'm sure someone on the list can tell you of successful XP experiences
          >using C++ (or maybe even C) in an embedded environment.
          >
          >
          Could be useful to know more about them for me. I am more confident with
          PSP and TSP then XP and Agile.

          >What does your perceived ability to do XP have to do with its perceived
          >popularity?
          >
          Some consultants wait just a new methodology to use it to make more
          business without sell more results, also engineers tend to try new
          methods to try to solve old problems but this doesn't assure to
          effectively solve them. Also compare results on different projects may
          be difficult and tendence is to say that new method is better the oldest
          (is possible to give a different answer if you choose the new method to
          do better work?). Personally I think that may be better to develop
          products to sell on the market and worst to develop projects by contract
          (I am speaking about projects on dimensions that I normally managed:
          2500-250000 C/C++ SLOC).

          >Are you looking for some help in learning how to estimate
          >based on using XP practices in an embedded environment?
          >
          >
          Yes, I am always interested to learn and I will happy to do. Also I
          would be happy if XP practices may improve my work and then I will write
          a different opinion (and corrections) on this list. Actually my
          previsions starts after receiving or writing project specifications. For
          specifications usually I use user sories and/or use cases.
          Then I will estimate "objects", objects dependencies and relations,
          tools, technology and development problems and then I will refine the
          process to obtain an interval prevision based on SLOC interval (i.e.
          25000-32000 SLOC). From sloc and some corrective constant I will
          estimate developing time and so man work costs.
          Software documentation is provided directly on source code and managed
          with doxygen so my productivity statistics are always with docs.

          >Best regards,
          >Jeff
          >
          >
          >


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        • Micron Engineering
          Ron Jeffries ha scritto:On Thursday, January 5, 2006, at 1:13:29 PM, Micron Engineering wrote: Technically is not so important if a technology or
          Message 4 of 30 , Jan 5, 2006
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            Ron Jeffries ha scritto:

            >On Thursday, January 5, 2006, at 1:13:29 PM, Micron Engineering wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >>Technically is not so important if a technology or a methodology is
            >>popular or not but if it works or not. Personally I don't think that XP
            >>may be useful in every application; I am involved in embedded
            >>applications and applications related to industrial applications also
            >>using PCs. In this field C and C++ (possibly not using .NET) are the
            >>preferred languages but they are not very well supported by XP and
            >>mothern technologies more related to Java and .NET. Obviously C and C++
            >>developers may use oldest tools with more confidence; also tons of
            >>libraries and source code exists from 20 or more years. Personally it is
            >>difficult to me to find a way to predict time, memory space and cost
            >>using Xp methodologies because some of them (i.e. refactoring) are
            >>difficult to predict.
            >>
            >>
            >
            >There are a number of companies doing XP in the embedded arena.
            >Maybe it's not as hard as it might seem ...
            >
            >
            The problem is distinguish who made better product at best quality,
            short time and lower cost and not if there are companies using XP,
            Agile, PSP/TSP, UML or other methods/tools....


            >Ron Jeffries
            >www.XProgramming.com
            >It is a bad plan that admits of no modifications. -- Publius Syrus (ca. 42 BCE)
            >
            >
            >
            >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            >ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


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          • Ron Jeffries
            ... Maybe that s the problem ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Improvement stops when we start believing that ideas about how to improve are insulting.
            Message 5 of 30 , Jan 5, 2006
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              On Thursday, January 5, 2006, at 3:58:19 PM, Micron Engineering wrote:

              >>There are a number of companies doing XP in the embedded arena.
              >>Maybe it's not as hard as it might seem ...
              >>
              >>
              > The problem is distinguish who made better product at best quality,
              > short time and lower cost and not if there are companies using XP,
              > Agile, PSP/TSP, UML or other methods/tools....

              Maybe that's the problem ...

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Improvement stops when we start believing that
              ideas about how to improve are insulting.
            • Piergiuliano Bossi
              ... I may agree, but that s not what William was asking. :-) And evaluating popularity of something is not bad in itself, at least if you remember that
              Message 6 of 30 , Jan 5, 2006
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                >Technically is not so important if a technology or a methodology is
                >popular or not but if it works or not.

                I may agree, but that's not what William was asking. :-)
                And evaluating "popularity" of something is not bad in itself, at least if you remember that popularity and quality/effectiveness/etc. are not necessarily on the same page.

                Ciao
                Giuliano


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • George Dinwiddie
                ... You might enjoy comparing that article to http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Programming I m certainly in it for the profitability. ;-)
                Message 7 of 30 , Jan 5, 2006
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                  Jeff Grigg wrote:
                  > The WikiPedia article we're talking about is...
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Programming

                  You might enjoy comparing that article to
                  http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Programming I'm certainly in it
                  for the profitability. ;-)
                • Keith Ray
                  ... measure attendance at XP and agile conferences, number of consultants who say that do or coach XP, sales of books about XP and associated practices -- C.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jan 5, 2006
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                    >
                    > Good point. If I'm compiling a number, aside from these two, are there
                    > any others whose numbers I should include?
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/testdrivendevelopment/
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/

                    measure attendance at XP and agile conferences, number of consultants
                    who say that do or coach XP, sales of books about XP and associated
                    practices




                    --
                    C. Keith Ray
                    <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/blog/index.html>
                    <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html>
                    <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/resume2.html>
                  • William Pietri
                    ... All good ideas. Anybody have those numbers or know somebody who does? Perhaps the European XP conference would be the best series of data, as it s oldest
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jan 5, 2006
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                      Keith Ray wrote:

                      >>Good point. If I'm compiling a number, aside from these two, are there
                      >>any others whose numbers I should include?
                      >>
                      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/testdrivendevelopment/
                      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >measure attendance at XP and agile conferences, number of consultants
                      >who say that do or coach XP, sales of books about XP and associated
                      >practices
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      All good ideas. Anybody have those numbers or know somebody who does?
                      Perhaps the European XP conference would be the best series of data, as
                      it's oldest and it's strictly XP.

                      William


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dave Rooney
                      ... Book sales can be misleading... recently there was an article that said something along the lines that Java was dying:
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jan 6, 2006
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                        Keith Ray wrote:

                        >>Good point. If I'm compiling a number, aside from these two, are there
                        >>any others whose numbers I should include?
                        >>
                        >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/testdrivendevelopment/
                        >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >measure attendance at XP and agile conferences, number of consultants
                        >who say that do or coach XP, sales of books about XP and associated
                        >practices
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >--
                        >C. Keith Ray
                        ><http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/blog/index.html>
                        ><http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html>
                        ><http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/resume2.html>
                        >
                        >

                        Book sales can be misleading... recently there was an article that said
                        something along the lines that Java was dying:

                        http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051213_042973.htm

                        Part of the basis for this assertion was the percentage change in book
                        sales compared to other technologies such as LAMP, RoR, .NET, etc.

                        Even if it's true that Java is losing out to other technologies (and
                        Ruby/Ror may be a worthy successor), using book sales as a measurement
                        isn't really valid. After all, a whole pile of people have already been
                        through Java 101, J2EE 101, etc. The don't need new books necessarily
                        (except maybe Rod Johnson's J2EE without EJB!). The "other stuff" is
                        relatively new, and therefore will attract the attention of people
                        looking for other technologies.

                        I was at a presentation by Borland a couple of years back when .NET 1.0
                        was just about to be released. The presenter said that they figured
                        there would be a significant spike in .NET sales and development over an
                        18 month period because of the pent-up demand for upgrades of older VB
                        5.0 and 6.0 applications. That seems to have been borne out by the job
                        listings and RFP's I've seen, and is represented by increased book sales
                        as people learn the newer technology.

                        Dave Rooney
                        Mayford Technologies
                        http://www.mayford.ca
                      • Jeff Grigg
                        ... http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051213_042973 .htm Yup (according to the article) Java is dying. Instead, we should jump on a
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jan 6, 2006
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                          --- Dave Rooney <dave.rooney@m...> wrote:
                          > [...] recently there was an article that said
                          > something along the lines that Java was dying:
                          >
                          http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051213_042973
                          .htm

                          Yup (according to the article) Java is dying. Instead, we should jump
                          on a hot new technology -- Perl, running on Linux. (!!!)

                          Hmmm... ;->
                        • James Carr
                          Please don t make me cry. It is my experience that the majority of people who make that assertion feel java is too complex and also think OOP is some dying
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jan 6, 2006
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                            Please don't make me cry. It is my experience that the majority of people
                            who make that assertion feel java is "too complex" and also think OOP is
                            some dying fad. They also say the future of web development is LAMP (Linux,
                            Apache, Mysql, and Perl) servers acting as text pumps to transmit XML (which
                            should be parsed using regex to get it parsed as quickly as possible).

                            Cry me a river. ;)

                            Thanks,
                            JC

                            On 1/6/06, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- Dave Rooney <dave.rooney@m...> wrote:
                            > > [...] recently there was an article that said
                            > > something along the lines that Java was dying:
                            > >
                            > http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051213_042973
                            > .htm
                            >
                            > Yup (according to the article) Java is dying. Instead, we should jump
                            > on a hot new technology -- Perl, running on Linux. (!!!)
                            >
                            > Hmmm... ;->
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                            >
                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                            >
                            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ahmet Işık
                            ... AJAX is a competitor for Java ???
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jan 6, 2006
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                              imho, the funniest part is this:

                              > "The new generation of lighter-weight programming tools, including AJAX and PHP, are > immensely popular with the Web 2.0 startups, including the likes of Friendster, Flickr, and > Facebook. The new tools allow programmers with less training to build applications rapidly."

                              AJAX is a competitor for Java ???

                              On 1/6/06, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@...> wrote:
                              > --- Dave Rooney <dave.rooney@m...> wrote:
                              > > [...] recently there was an article that said
                              > > something along the lines that Java was dying:
                              > >
                              > http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051213_042973
                              > .htm
                              >
                              > Yup (according to the article) Java is dying. Instead, we should jump
                              > on a hot new technology -- Perl, running on Linux. (!!!)
                              >
                              > Hmmm... ;->
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • James Carr
                              However, replacing that P with Python and the M with Postgresql, you DO wind up with a pretty darn good combination. Likewise, I think fitting an R in there
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                However, replacing that P with Python and the M with Postgresql, you DO wind
                                up with a pretty darn good combination. Likewise, I think fitting an R in
                                there may be good too. ;)

                                On 1/6/06, James Carr <james.r.carr@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Please don't make me cry. It is my experience that the majority of people
                                > who make that assertion feel java is "too complex" and also think OOP is
                                > some dying fad. They also say the future of web development is LAMP (Linux,
                                > Apache, Mysql, and Perl) servers acting as text pumps to transmit XML (which
                                > should be parsed using regex to get it parsed as quickly as possible).
                                >
                                > Cry me a river. ;)
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                > JC
                                >
                                > On 1/6/06, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- Dave Rooney <dave.rooney@m...> wrote:
                                > > > [...] recently there was an article that said
                                > > > something along the lines that Java was dying:
                                > > >
                                > > http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051213_042973
                                > > .htm
                                > >
                                > > Yup (according to the article) Java is dying. Instead, we should jump
                                > > on a hot new technology -- Perl, running on Linux. (!!!)
                                > >
                                > > Hmmm... ;->
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                > >
                                > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                > >
                                > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • usidoesit
                                ... including AJAX and PHP, are immensely popular with the Web 2.0 startups, including the likes of Friendster, Flickr, and Facebook. The new tools allow
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ahmet Iþýk <anarkhos@g...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > imho, the funniest part is this:
                                  >
                                  > > "The new generation of lighter-weight programming tools,
                                  including AJAX and PHP, are > immensely popular with the Web 2.0
                                  startups, including the likes of Friendster, Flickr, and > Facebook.
                                  The new tools allow programmers with less training to build
                                  applications rapidly."
                                  >
                                  > AJAX is a competitor for Java ???
                                  >

                                  That's hilarious. PHP seems a simple direct approach to pages.
                                  However, I had to draw on 20 years of experience to get it compiled
                                  in an enterprise environment. Then to know what to do when a PHP bug
                                  came up, less training? Don't even talk to me about security with
                                  less training...

                                  However, just did something with the Java crypto libraries. It was
                                  dead simple, would've taken forever in PHP.

                                  I wouldn't touch the X part of AJAX, would try instead

                                  eval( get-generated-javascript-array-code-over-http )

                                  Load it into TrimPath SQL. Now that's cool stuff. Everything in so-
                                  called AJAX hinges on the DIV tag, which you can exploit to your
                                  heart's content with the simple TrimPath templates. It's not a
                                  framework, just a tool.

                                  As for the popularity of XP, I've looked and there's nothing else
                                  happening. All the other groups are boring in comparison, even
                                  visionary shamanism.

                                  Rich

                                  --

                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/heuristic/

                                  How to do Continuous Invention. Free books and newsletters.
                                • James Carr
                                  Hi, ... You do know this is hideously slow necause a new javascript intepreter is created each time you use eval, don t you? I just send the xml with the
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                    Hi,

                                    On 1/6/06, usidoesit <usidoesit@...> wrote:
                                    > I wouldn't touch the X part of AJAX, would try instead
                                    >
                                    > eval( get-generated-javascript-array-code-over-http )

                                    You do know this is hideously slow necause a new javascript intepreter
                                    is created each time you use eval, don't you? I just send the xml with
                                    the correct content type and either use the dom to get what I need,
                                    use XSL to transform it for display, or use a serializer like JSON.

                                    Using XML over xmlhttp isn't bad... it's just bad when you have too
                                    much bloat. Either way, it's still going to take up less memory than
                                    multiple eval calls.

                                    Thanks,
                                    JC
                                  • usidoesit
                                    ... JSON it is. http://www.crockford.com/JSON/ Looks like good support. Had done some Props-over-HTTP services with java property lists(it s a one-liner in
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, James Carr
                                      <james.r.carr@g...> wrote:
                                      > or use a serializer like JSON.

                                      JSON it is. http://www.crockford.com/JSON/

                                      Looks like good support. Had done some "Props-over-HTTP" services
                                      with java property lists(it's a one-liner in Java), using Java
                                      crypto libs to encrypt at the field level where necessary, but
                                      here's something similar (JSON) that's actually recognized :-)

                                      Thanks,
                                      Rich

                                      --

                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/heuristic/

                                      How to do Continuous Invention. Free books and newsletters.
                                    • Dave Rooney
                                      ... Heh heh.. no kidding. Linux I don t have a problem with, but there are alternatives to Perl. PHP kinda makes my stomach feel funny in a bad way too. Any
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                        Jeff Grigg wrote:

                                        >--- Dave Rooney <dave.rooney@m...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>[...] recently there was an article that said
                                        >>something along the lines that Java was dying:
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051213_042973
                                        >.htm
                                        >
                                        >Yup (according to the article) Java is dying. Instead, we should jump
                                        >on a hot new technology -- Perl, running on Linux. (!!!)
                                        >
                                        >Hmmm... ;->
                                        >
                                        >

                                        Heh heh.. no kidding. Linux I don't have a problem with, but there are
                                        alternatives to Perl. PHP kinda makes my stomach feel funny in a bad
                                        way too. Any language that allows me to embed SQL in a web page just
                                        doesn't seem right to me. IMHO, of course.

                                        Dave Rooney
                                        Mayford Technologies
                                        http://www.mayford.ca
                                      • Vimarsh Vasavada
                                        Hello all, I am relatively novice to the XP/AgileMethods but I think i understand theoretically, the power of acceptance test. I mean I have seen it running
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jan 10, 2006
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                                          Hello all,

                                          I am relatively novice to the XP/AgileMethods but I think i understand
                                          theoretically, the power of acceptance test. I mean I have seen it running
                                          for different Web-Applications and how it can be helpful.

                                          We have server application[j2ee]... catering to J2ME devices and Desktop
                                          clients also. I was thinking to have acceptance test framework for
                                          1. server-system
                                          2. device/desktop thick clients-system


                                          1. For thick-client use cases, how do I capture acceptance test cases?
                                          2. Interdependancies , I can not test server/client independantly.
                                          3. I could not find FIT naturally applicable here..may be I don’t understand
                                          it quite well ...

                                          I feel we will have to invest in building Custom- Test-Infrastructure built
                                          upon FIT and Mock etc...

                                          Any alternative tools/ideas?

                                          Thanks in advance


                                          vim

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