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Re: [XP] Agile requirements

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  • David Chelimsky
    ... I ve generally operated this same way, but I ve been having some second thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose so I posted
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
      Jim Shore wrote:
      > I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
      > feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
      >
      > I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't try
      > to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of domain
      > logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction or data
      > translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI interaction
      > or data translation is complicated or Fit would facilitate discussion
      > with non-programmers.
      >
      > I see NUnit and Fit as being orthogonal. They solve different problems
      > and it's not that important that they both end up comparing 'expected'
      > and 'actual' results.
      >
      > What's complicated about the application you're building? What's the
      > "secret sauce"--the magic know-how that your application provides that
      > no one else does? Provide Fit examples of that.
      >
      > I use TDD for everything, even if it has Fit examples too. When I write
      > my NUnit tests, I use different data than my Fit examples. I TDD from a
      > programming perspective... using data that reflects my knowledge of the
      > program's edge cases, zero-one-many scenarios, etc.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Jim
      >
      I've generally operated this same way, but I've been having some second
      thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose
      so I posted it:
      http://butunclebob.com/ArticleS.DavidChelimsky.WhyLimitFit.
      Coincidentally, that decision allowed me to better express some of the
      things I had started to write in an email.

      Looking forward to your (Jim's and everyone else's) comments either here
      or on the blog.

      Thanks,
      David
    • David Chelimsky
      ... I ve generally operated this same way, but I ve been having some second thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose so I posted
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
        Jim Shore wrote:
        > I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
        > feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
        >
        > I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't
        > try to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of
        > domain logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction
        > or data translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI
        > interaction or data translation is complicated or Fit would
        > facilitate discussion with non-programmers.
        >
        > I see NUnit and Fit as being orthogonal. They solve different
        > problems and it's not that important that they both end up comparing
        > 'expected' and 'actual' results.
        >
        > What's complicated about the application you're building? What's the
        > "secret sauce"--the magic know-how that your application provides that
        > no one else does? Provide Fit examples of that.
        >
        > I use TDD for everything, even if it has Fit examples too. When I
        > write my NUnit tests, I use different data than my Fit examples. I
        > TDD from a programming perspective... using data that reflects my
        > knowledge of the program's edge cases, zero-one-many scenarios, etc.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Jim
        >
        I've generally operated this same way, but I've been having some second
        thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose
        so I posted it:
        http://butunclebob.com/ArticleS.DavidChelimsky.WhyLimitFit.
        Coincidentally, that decision allowed me to better express some of the
        things I had started to write in an email.

        Looking forward to your (Jim's and everyone else's) comments either here
        or on the blog.

        Thanks,
        David
      • William Wake
        On 12/2/05, David Chelimsky wrote: [In his blog entry] ... This is a place I see good leverage. I see the difference when a Fit test
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
          On 12/2/05, David Chelimsky <david@...> wrote:
          [In his blog entry]
          >"I've noticed that these tables lead me and my team to classes that operate
          >directly on the basis of the described conditions." -

          This is a place I see good leverage. I see the difference when a Fit
          test is ready first and drives things - some object will directly
          represent the decisions in the table. When the table is done
          afterwards, there may or may not be such an object. (The correct
          behavior may be there, but arises out of the interaction of objects.)

          Having the "policy" object directly present in the system seems like a
          big benefit to me - it gives you a traceability that the system
          directly reflects the conditions.


          Like everybody else, it seems, we're also trying to hit the right
          balance between "tests as specification" versus "test as
          verification", and of "customer-written" vs. "programmer-written". I
          too find people easily fall into the "trap" of writing lots of
          verification scripts rather than expressing clearly and directly what
          they want to happen.

          --
          Bill Wake William.Wake@... www.xp123.com
        • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
          From: David Chelimsky To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
            From: "David Chelimsky"
            <david.at.objectmentor.com@...>
            To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
            <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
            Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 8:38 AM
            Subject: Re: [XP] Agile requirements


            > Jim Shore wrote:
            >> I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
            >> feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
            >>
            >> I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't
            >> try to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of
            >> domain logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction
            >> or data translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI
            >> interaction or data translation is complicated or Fit would
            >> facilitate discussion with non-programmers.
            >>
            >> I see NUnit and Fit as being orthogonal. They solve different
            >> problems and it's not that important that they both end up comparing
            >> 'expected' and 'actual' results.
            >>
            >> What's complicated about the application you're building? What's the
            >> "secret sauce"--the magic know-how that your application provides that
            >> no one else does? Provide Fit examples of that.
            >>
            >> I use TDD for everything, even if it has Fit examples too. When I
            >> write my NUnit tests, I use different data than my Fit examples. I
            >> TDD from a programming perspective... using data that reflects my
            >> knowledge of the program's edge cases, zero-one-many scenarios, etc.
            >>
            >> Cheers,
            >> Jim
            >>
            > I've generally operated this same way, but I've been having some second
            > thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose
            > so I posted it:
            > http://butunclebob.com/ArticleS.DavidChelimsky.WhyLimitFit.
            > Coincidentally, that decision allowed me to better express some of the
            > things I had started to write in an email.
            >
            > Looking forward to your (Jim's and everyone else's) comments either here
            > or on the blog.

            I think there's an element here that really does need expressing: _choice_.

            I'd like to keep a separation between the external specification, which
            ultimately comes from the customers and which needs to be expressed
            in the terms natural to the business we're supporting, and the internal
            specification, which, while necessarilly related to the external
            specification,
            may be related in ways which may not be directly expressable.

            However, "may" does not equal "must". I've also noted that there are
            a class of tables which seem to map, very plainly and simply, to
            objects (or something) in the software, and where separate tests are
            not only redundant, they are a violation of the DRY principle: Don't
            repeat yourself.

            The biggest example I've got here (within FIT) is the mapping from
            labels to programming language identifiers. The unittest (unittest is
            Python's version of xUnit) code for this duplicates the table in
            Rick Mugridge's specification suite for ExtendedCamelCase.
            I've got other examples, and I've noticed the tendency to write
            some HTML, especially to drive fixtures from the doTable,
            doRows or doRow methods.

            I don't think there's a real way around this since so much of
            FIT revolves around the parse tree. I don't think I'd do this
            in most real world applications, since the closest they get
            to HTML is the FIT fixtures. The problem just doesn't occur
            unless you're either working on FIT or on an HTML part of
            a web application.

            Much of the rest is simply tool support. Living in a tool
            impoverished world gives me a somewhat different perspective.
            I don't, for example, have anything that lets me click on a line
            in a stack trace and go directly to the line in the code. I run
            all my tests from a script in a command window. This may be
            dark ages, but it does give me more leverage in running tests.
            If I want to run FIT in my "t all" script, then it's very simple:
            just add the necessary commands to the script. All I need
            then is a way to specify which tests are wired directly to
            functionality, and I'm almost home.

            As it turns out, it's relatively easy in FitNesse to say
            which tests to run: that's the virtual suite functionality.
            I've got the same functionality (plus more) in batch that
            will be in my 0.8 release. What's now missing is a way
            of looking at the output and pinpointing anything that
            went wrong (that is, stack traces).

            In counterpoint though, I think Jim's viewpoint has one
            really major plus: keeping things separate reduces coupling,
            and coupling impacts our ability to change. Do I really want
            the customer changing tables that I'm using as part of my
            program specification suite? Especially if the change impacts
            the design in a way that I can no longer use the table directly
            as a developer specification?

            John Roth


            > Thanks,
            > David
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • David Chelimsky
            ... John - I appreciate the notion of keeping things separate. I don t want the customer changing tables that *I m* using as *programmer tests*. So that s a
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
              yahoogroups@... wrote:
              > In counterpoint though, I think Jim's viewpoint has one
              > really major plus: keeping things separate reduces coupling,
              > and coupling impacts our ability to change. Do I really want
              > the customer changing tables that I'm using as part of my
              > program specification suite? Especially if the change impacts
              > the design in a way that I can no longer use the table directly
              > as a developer specification?
              John - I appreciate the notion of keeping things separate. I don't want
              the customer changing tables that *I'm* using as *programmer tests*. So
              that's a problem if we're trying to reduce duplication - especially with
              the current lack of good FIT refatoring tools. I'd probably end up w/
              duplication between the customer's fit tests and mine :)

              However, I do get a little jealous of my customers who get to express
              their specs in this beautiful, simple, easy to glean tabular format when
              I feel sort of stuck w/ a less expressive tool (for certain problems) in
              xUnit. Obviously xUnit is extraordinarily expressive, and I have no
              interest in replacing xUnit w/ FIT as a unit testing tool. But I do want
              to be able to take advantage of FIT where it makes sense to do so.

              -David Chelimsky
            • Rob Park
              My 2 cents (or at least how we treat it) are that the details of your MVP, subsequent DAOs, and any of the other little individual things it must do are
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
                My 2 cents (or at least how we treat it) are that the details of your MVP,
                subsequent DAOs, and any of the other little individual things it must do
                are subjects for unit testing (aka programmer tests). Fit fixtures can be
                written to tap into your presenter (as just another view). Then you can
                right FitNesse tests (aka customer tests) to simulate and test important
                customer actions, which inevitably are very closely aligned with the story
                (more than the code itself).

                Hope that helps.

                .rob.

                >...
                >
                >Now we are starting to gather the requirements. My usual way, the XP way
                >is to plan the first relase first, by having a pile of user stories, then
                >adding details to them as acceptance tests, more when the iteration is
                >planned. However, writing FIT tests in fitnesse seems like a very nice
                >thing to do, but what confuses us is what should be automated as
                >unit/integration tests with NUnit/NMock and what should be automated as
                >Fit tests?
                >
                >For instance, obviously an application like this will have an order form,
                >order will have a list of order details. My way would be to build the
                >form, using TDD and the MVP pattern. At the same time, I think that I
                >could construct a test as a fit table, them make an adapter, and build the
                >part of the form to make the test pass, build a new one and so on until I
                >have m order form constructed. Fit tests are much more visual, but a lot
                >slower. What should I do? What should really be Fit tests and what NUnit?
                >Where's the line?
                >
                >Thanks,
                >Dan
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 06:20:22 +0200, Jim Shore <jshore@...>
                >wrote:
                >
                > > I've just posted a new essay on my blog titled "How I Use Fit." It's
                > > based on my recent post to this group about Fit and TDD.
                > >
                > > As I look back, I realize that I've now closed the circle on a pretty
                > > substantial cycle of essays on agile requirements. I now cover
                > > everything from planning months of releases down to how to write a
                > > single section of Fit document, the work of an hour. Pretty cool.
                > > (Hey, wait! Shouldn't I demand big bucks for this stuff?)
                > >
                > > * "Beyond Story Cards" describes how I prefer to handle requirements
                > > over the course of developing an entire software product.
                > > * "Fit Workflow" describes how I use Fit to facilitate collaboration on
                > > requirements during a single iteration.
                > > * "A Vision for Fit" gives a concrete example of using Fit to facilite
                > > collaboration.
                > > * Describe-Demonstrate-Develop, in "How I Use Fit" describes how I
                > > prefer to develop the Fit document, fixtures, and how actual software
                > > development comes into play.
                > > * "Elaborating on a Theme," also in "How I Use Fit," describes how I
                > > structure Fit documents and their examples.
                > >
                > > Find links to these essays at
                > > http://www.jamesshore.com/Blog/Agile-Requirements.html
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > > Jim
                >
                >
                >
                >--
                >Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
                >
                >
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                >
                >
              • Rick Mugridge
                ... Hi David, I have no problem, in principle, in using Fit for unit tests and JUnit for storytests. It depends on the abilities of the human readers and the
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
                  David Chelimsky wrote:

                  > ...
                  >
                  >However, I do get a little jealous of my customers who get to express
                  >their specs in this beautiful, simple, easy to glean tabular format when
                  >I feel sort of stuck w/ a less expressive tool (for certain problems) in
                  >xUnit. Obviously xUnit is extraordinarily expressive, and I have no
                  >interest in replacing xUnit w/ FIT as a unit testing tool. But I do want
                  >to be able to take advantage of FIT where it makes sense to do so.
                  >
                  >-David Chelimsky
                  >
                  >
                  Hi David,

                  I have no problem, in principle, in using Fit for unit tests and JUnit
                  for storytests. It depends on the abilities of the human readers and the
                  writers, and then on the form of the tests as to which is best. (I also
                  use Fit for defining builds and other things besides.)

                  I do agree that the Customers' storytests need to be kept separate from
                  the programmers' Fit unit tests. I also want to keep separate the Fit
                  storytests that define the PUBLISHED LANGUAGE (DomainDrivenDesign) for a
                  subsystem. And also the storytests that are specific to installation and
                  on-site maintenance. And etc.

                  Cheers, Rick
                • Rick Mugridge
                  Yes, I think they re just tackling different levels of the system. With good tool support, I could image using Fit for all my unit testing as well. I look
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
                    Yes, I think they're just tackling different levels of the system. With
                    good tool support, I could image using Fit for all my unit testing as
                    well. I look forward to trying this out.

                    Cheers, Rick

                    Steven Gordon wrote:

                    > ...
                    >
                    >And, as Dadi points out, xUnit supports the automated verification of TDD
                    >specifications, allowing them to also function as automated unit tests for
                    >any software that purports to satisfy those specifications.
                    >
                    >Likewise, Fit/Fitnesse supports the automated verification of Application
                    >Domain specifications, allowing them to also function as automated
                    >integration tests for any software that purports to satisfy those
                    >specifications.
                    >
                    >Two sides of two similar coins.
                    >
                    >Regards,
                    >
                    >Steve
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Rick Mugridge
                    Hi David, Yes, I agree with your point of view and have seen it work very well in practice. With calculation rules like your validation table, it makes much
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
                      Hi David,

                      Yes, I agree with your point of view and have seen it work very well in
                      practice. With calculation rules like your validation table, it makes
                      much sense to have them expressed directly in the code, taking a domain
                      driven design approach. I've noticed that tthe business logic often gets
                      little attention, and this helps bring a focus to it.

                      Of course, there still needs to be unit tests for driving the
                      infrastructure (non domain) parts.

                      Cheers, Rick

                      David Chelimsky wrote:

                      >Jim Shore wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >>I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
                      >>feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
                      >>
                      >>I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't try
                      >>to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of domain
                      >>logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction or data
                      >>translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI interaction
                      >> or data translation is complicated or Fit would facilitate discussion
                      >>with non-programmers.
                      >>
                      >>I see NUnit and Fit as being orthogonal. They solve different problems
                      >>and it's not that important that they both end up comparing 'expected'
                      >>and 'actual' results.
                      >>
                      >>What's complicated about the application you're building? What's the
                      >>"secret sauce"--the magic know-how that your application provides that
                      >>no one else does? Provide Fit examples of that.
                      >>
                      >>I use TDD for everything, even if it has Fit examples too. When I write
                      >>my NUnit tests, I use different data than my Fit examples. I TDD from a
                      >>programming perspective... using data that reflects my knowledge of the
                      >>program's edge cases, zero-one-many scenarios, etc.
                      >>
                      >>Cheers,
                      >>Jim
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >I've generally operated this same way, but I've been having some second
                      >thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose
                      >so I posted it:
                      >http://butunclebob.com/ArticleS.DavidChelimsky.WhyLimitFit.
                      >Coincidentally, that decision allowed me to better express some of the
                      >things I had started to write in an email.
                      >
                      >Looking forward to your (Jim's and everyone else's) comments either here
                      >or on the blog.
                      >
                      >Thanks,
                      >David
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      >ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dominic Williams
                      ... Surely, evolving an expressive and consise domain-specific language for the programmer tests is exactly the same exercise as what XP tells us to do with
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 6, 2005
                        David Chelimsky started:

                        > However, I do get a little jealous of my customers
                        > who get to express their specs in this beautiful,
                        > simple, easy to glean tabular format when I feel sort
                        > of stuck w/ a less expressive tool (for certain
                        > problems) in xUnit.

                        and Rick Mugridge continued:

                        > With good tool support, I could image using Fit for
                        > all my unit testing as well. I look forward to trying
                        > this out.

                        Surely, evolving an expressive and consise
                        domain-specific language for the programmer tests is
                        exactly the same exercise as what XP tells us to do
                        with the code?

                        I am wondering what it says about our programming
                        languages or our ability to use them creatively that
                        programmers should be wanting to use FIT rather than
                        code for programmer tests...

                        Would you still want to if you were coding in Lisp or
                        Smalltalk or Ruby or something?

                        Anyway, even with C++ or Java, I don't think I'd want
                        to do programmer tests in FIT: when coding tests is
                        painful, I know I need to improve the design.

                        Regards,

                        Dominic Williams
                        http://www.dominicwilliams.net

                        ----
                      • Rick Mugridge
                        ... Please notice that I m not advocating this as a general approach! And I doubt that I ll end up wanting to change. But I think it s worth trying it. TDD
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 6, 2005
                          Dominic Williams wrote:

                          >David Chelimsky started:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>However, I do get a little jealous of my customers
                          >>who get to express their specs in this beautiful,
                          >>simple, easy to glean tabular format when I feel sort
                          >>of stuck w/ a less expressive tool (for certain
                          >>problems) in xUnit.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >and Rick Mugridge continued:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>With good tool support, I could image using Fit for
                          >>all my unit testing as well. I look forward to trying
                          >>this out.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >Surely, evolving an expressive and consise
                          >domain-specific language for the programmer tests is
                          >exactly the same exercise as what XP tells us to do
                          >with the code?
                          >
                          >I am wondering what it says about our programming
                          >languages or our ability to use them creatively that
                          >programmers should be wanting to use FIT rather than
                          >code for programmer tests...
                          >
                          >
                          Please notice that I'm not advocating this as a general approach! And I
                          doubt that I'll end up wanting to change. But I think it's worth trying
                          it. TDD would be unknown if someone didn't try something that seemed
                          very odd to begin with. I often learn something from pushing the
                          boundaries, even if I just understand my assumptions better.

                          >Would you still want to if you were coding in Lisp or
                          >Smalltalk or Ruby or something?
                          >Anyway, even with C++ or Java, I don't think I'd want
                          >to do programmer tests in FIT: when coding tests is
                          >painful, I know I need to improve the design.
                          >
                          >
                          Fit could be useful is in setting up compex object structures, which can
                          be a real pain in Java. Ruby, of course, provides much better support
                          for this. But I personally prefer statically typed languages as a design
                          medium, having seriously tried a variety of types of language.

                          So, yes, it highlights the limits of the design of programming
                          languages, which are still (mostly) in the days of ascii.

                          Cheers, Rick

                          >Regards,
                          >
                          >Dominic Williams
                          >http://www.dominicwilliams.net
                          >
                          >


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