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Re: [XP] Agile requirements

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  • Hugo Garcia
    ... Well, lets make that two crosses ;) I actually think it is possible to do story testing for developing the GUI. The trick is to just focus on the
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 1, 2005
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      On 02/12/05, Jim Shore <jshore@...> wrote:
      > I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't try
      > to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of domain
      > logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction or data
      > translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI interaction
      > or data translation is complicated or Fit would facilitate discussion
      > with non-programmers.

      On 12/2/05, Tim Haughton <timhaughton@...> wrote:
      > I also suspect that if I tell you any more about your own mind, you
      > might become cross ;¬]
      >

      Well, lets make that two crosses ;)

      I actually think it is possible to do story testing for developing the
      GUI. The trick is to just focus on the interaction of MVC and not on
      the widget or layout of the GUI. The latter is best left to the human
      eye or if you feel adventuresome then to a GUI scripting test tool.
      I will state the caveat start with your domain model but alwyas have
      in the back of your mind the GUI. Once your model is relatively well
      defined then you can move on to the GUI and further refine the model
      and view interaction.

      -H
    • Dadi Ingolfsson
      ... I must say I beg to differ here. Although I completely agree with your assessment that Fit and xUnit are specification tools, for different contexts, I do
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Tim Haughton
        <timhaughton@g...> wrote:
        >
        > On 02/12/05, Jim Shore <jshore@t...> wrote:
        > > I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
        > > feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
        > >
        >
        > Not wanting to tell you your own mind, but I suspect that if you
        > thought about it, you wouldn't see NUnit as a testing tool either. I'd
        > contend that Fit serves two purposes, it is a specification tool and
        > it's a facilitator of discussion between stakeholders, developers,
        > testers etc. I'd also contend that xUnit is a specification tool, and
        > a facilitator of discussion between developers. Of course, what xUnit
        > specifies and what Fit specifies, are different.

        I must say I beg to differ here. Although I completely agree with your
        assessment that Fit and xUnit are specification tools, for different
        contexts, I do think that both of these tools are _also_ testing tools
        (feels like I´m stating the obvious, but hey!).

        I feel you guys may be going a bit too far with this "It´s a
        specification not a test" argument. I know that the specification
        quality of these tools may be primary, but let´s not talk about them
        like their other effects don´t exist.

        Best regards,
        Dadi.
      • Dan Bunea
        Hi Jim, Thank you very much for the response. Fit seems to have it s place where the scenarios get more complicated and NUnit reaches its limits. Like maybe
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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          Hi Jim,

          Thank you very much for the response.

          Fit seems to have it's place where the scenarios get more complicated and
          NUnit reaches its limits. Like maybe shipping an order to a client, which
          is done in one part of the application, then verifiing in the sales report
          if the client has the balance properly modified.

          From previous experience, my colleague said that a series of things, are
          implemented diferently in for different clients: inventory management
          (FIFO, LIFO, ..), validation rules (a client want to know the purchaser
          agent, another doesn't care), product identification (for a client a
          product means a 2 key pair: name and no: paper/1000 but for others, it
          will be name, no and size: paper/1000/A4) and many others. Probably these
          could be captured with the client as fit tables and then automated.

          Thanks again for the answer,
          Dan


          On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 23:01:39 -0500, Jim Shore <jshore@...>
          wrote:

          > Hi, Dan,
          >
          > Dan Bunea wrote:
          >> However, writing FIT tests in fitnesse seems like a very nice
          >> thing to do, but what confuses us is what should be automated as
          >> unit/integration tests with NUnit/NMock and what should be automated as
          >> Fit tests?
          >
          > I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
          > feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
          >
          > I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't try
          > to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of domain
          > logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction or data
          > translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI interaction
          > or data translation is complicated or Fit would facilitate discussion
          > with non-programmers.
          >
          > I see NUnit and Fit as being orthogonal. They solve different problems
          > and it's not that important that they both end up comparing 'expected'
          > and 'actual' results.
          >
          > What's complicated about the application you're building? What's the
          > "secret sauce"--the magic know-how that your application provides that
          > no one else does? Provide Fit examples of that.
          >
          > I use TDD for everything, even if it has Fit examples too. When I write
          > my NUnit tests, I use different data than my Fit examples. I TDD from a
          > programming perspective... using data that reflects my knowledge of the
          > program's edge cases, zero-one-many scenarios, etc.
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Jim



          --
          Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
        • Tim Haughton
          ... I think that perhaps I should have said TDD is a specification process rather than xUnit is a specification tool. xUnit tools can of course be used for
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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            On 02/12/05, Dadi Ingolfsson <blubberplinth@...> wrote:
            > I must say I beg to differ here. Although I completely agree with your
            > assessment that Fit and xUnit are specification tools, for different
            > contexts, I do think that both of these tools are _also_ testing tools
            > (feels like I´m stating the obvious, but hey!).

            I think that perhaps I should have said TDD is a specification process
            rather than xUnit is a specification tool. xUnit tools can of course
            be used for testing, but TDD uses them for specifying.

            Cheers,

            Tim
          • Steven Gordon
            ... And, as Dadi points out, xUnit supports the automated verification of TDD specifications, allowing them to also function as automated unit tests for any
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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              On 12/2/05, Tim Haughton <timhaughton@...> wrote:
              >
              > On 02/12/05, Dadi Ingolfsson <blubberplinth@...> wrote:
              > > I must say I beg to differ here. Although I completely agree with your
              > > assessment that Fit and xUnit are specification tools, for different
              > > contexts, I do think that both of these tools are _also_ testing tools
              > > (feels like I´m stating the obvious, but hey!).
              >
              > I think that perhaps I should have said TDD is a specification process
              > rather than xUnit is a specification tool. xUnit tools can of course
              > be used for testing, but TDD uses them for specifying.
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Tim


              And, as Dadi points out, xUnit supports the automated verification of TDD
              specifications, allowing them to also function as automated unit tests for
              any software that purports to satisfy those specifications.

              Likewise, Fit/Fitnesse supports the automated verification of Application
              Domain specifications, allowing them to also function as automated
              integration tests for any software that purports to satisfy those
              specifications.

              Two sides of two similar coins.

              Regards,

              Steve


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tim Haughton
              ... Absolutely. Like I ve said elsewhere, TDD is about specifying, unit tests are about verifying. Cheers, Tim
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                On 02/12/05, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:
                > And, as Dadi points out, xUnit supports the automated verification of TDD
                > specifications, allowing them to also function as automated unit tests for
                > any software that purports to satisfy those specifications.
                >
                > Likewise, Fit/Fitnesse supports the automated verification of Application
                > Domain specifications, allowing them to also function as automated
                > integration tests for any software that purports to satisfy those
                > specifications.

                Absolutely. Like I've said elsewhere, TDD is about specifying, unit
                tests are about verifying.

                Cheers,

                Tim
              • David Chelimsky
                ... I ve generally operated this same way, but I ve been having some second thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose so I posted
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                  Jim Shore wrote:
                  > I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
                  > feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
                  >
                  > I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't try
                  > to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of domain
                  > logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction or data
                  > translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI interaction
                  > or data translation is complicated or Fit would facilitate discussion
                  > with non-programmers.
                  >
                  > I see NUnit and Fit as being orthogonal. They solve different problems
                  > and it's not that important that they both end up comparing 'expected'
                  > and 'actual' results.
                  >
                  > What's complicated about the application you're building? What's the
                  > "secret sauce"--the magic know-how that your application provides that
                  > no one else does? Provide Fit examples of that.
                  >
                  > I use TDD for everything, even if it has Fit examples too. When I write
                  > my NUnit tests, I use different data than my Fit examples. I TDD from a
                  > programming perspective... using data that reflects my knowledge of the
                  > program's edge cases, zero-one-many scenarios, etc.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Jim
                  >
                  I've generally operated this same way, but I've been having some second
                  thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose
                  so I posted it:
                  http://butunclebob.com/ArticleS.DavidChelimsky.WhyLimitFit.
                  Coincidentally, that decision allowed me to better express some of the
                  things I had started to write in an email.

                  Looking forward to your (Jim's and everyone else's) comments either here
                  or on the blog.

                  Thanks,
                  David
                • David Chelimsky
                  ... I ve generally operated this same way, but I ve been having some second thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose so I posted
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                    Jim Shore wrote:
                    > I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
                    > feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
                    >
                    > I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't
                    > try to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of
                    > domain logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction
                    > or data translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI
                    > interaction or data translation is complicated or Fit would
                    > facilitate discussion with non-programmers.
                    >
                    > I see NUnit and Fit as being orthogonal. They solve different
                    > problems and it's not that important that they both end up comparing
                    > 'expected' and 'actual' results.
                    >
                    > What's complicated about the application you're building? What's the
                    > "secret sauce"--the magic know-how that your application provides that
                    > no one else does? Provide Fit examples of that.
                    >
                    > I use TDD for everything, even if it has Fit examples too. When I
                    > write my NUnit tests, I use different data than my Fit examples. I
                    > TDD from a programming perspective... using data that reflects my
                    > knowledge of the program's edge cases, zero-one-many scenarios, etc.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    > Jim
                    >
                    I've generally operated this same way, but I've been having some second
                    thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose
                    so I posted it:
                    http://butunclebob.com/ArticleS.DavidChelimsky.WhyLimitFit.
                    Coincidentally, that decision allowed me to better express some of the
                    things I had started to write in an email.

                    Looking forward to your (Jim's and everyone else's) comments either here
                    or on the blog.

                    Thanks,
                    David
                  • William Wake
                    On 12/2/05, David Chelimsky wrote: [In his blog entry] ... This is a place I see good leverage. I see the difference when a Fit test
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                      On 12/2/05, David Chelimsky <david@...> wrote:
                      [In his blog entry]
                      >"I've noticed that these tables lead me and my team to classes that operate
                      >directly on the basis of the described conditions." -

                      This is a place I see good leverage. I see the difference when a Fit
                      test is ready first and drives things - some object will directly
                      represent the decisions in the table. When the table is done
                      afterwards, there may or may not be such an object. (The correct
                      behavior may be there, but arises out of the interaction of objects.)

                      Having the "policy" object directly present in the system seems like a
                      big benefit to me - it gives you a traceability that the system
                      directly reflects the conditions.


                      Like everybody else, it seems, we're also trying to hit the right
                      balance between "tests as specification" versus "test as
                      verification", and of "customer-written" vs. "programmer-written". I
                      too find people easily fall into the "trap" of writing lots of
                      verification scripts rather than expressing clearly and directly what
                      they want to happen.

                      --
                      Bill Wake William.Wake@... www.xp123.com
                    • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
                      From: David Chelimsky To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                        From: "David Chelimsky"
                        <david.at.objectmentor.com@...>
                        To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
                        <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
                        Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 8:38 AM
                        Subject: Re: [XP] Agile requirements


                        > Jim Shore wrote:
                        >> I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
                        >> feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
                        >>
                        >> I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't
                        >> try to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of
                        >> domain logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction
                        >> or data translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI
                        >> interaction or data translation is complicated or Fit would
                        >> facilitate discussion with non-programmers.
                        >>
                        >> I see NUnit and Fit as being orthogonal. They solve different
                        >> problems and it's not that important that they both end up comparing
                        >> 'expected' and 'actual' results.
                        >>
                        >> What's complicated about the application you're building? What's the
                        >> "secret sauce"--the magic know-how that your application provides that
                        >> no one else does? Provide Fit examples of that.
                        >>
                        >> I use TDD for everything, even if it has Fit examples too. When I
                        >> write my NUnit tests, I use different data than my Fit examples. I
                        >> TDD from a programming perspective... using data that reflects my
                        >> knowledge of the program's edge cases, zero-one-many scenarios, etc.
                        >>
                        >> Cheers,
                        >> Jim
                        >>
                        > I've generally operated this same way, but I've been having some second
                        > thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose
                        > so I posted it:
                        > http://butunclebob.com/ArticleS.DavidChelimsky.WhyLimitFit.
                        > Coincidentally, that decision allowed me to better express some of the
                        > things I had started to write in an email.
                        >
                        > Looking forward to your (Jim's and everyone else's) comments either here
                        > or on the blog.

                        I think there's an element here that really does need expressing: _choice_.

                        I'd like to keep a separation between the external specification, which
                        ultimately comes from the customers and which needs to be expressed
                        in the terms natural to the business we're supporting, and the internal
                        specification, which, while necessarilly related to the external
                        specification,
                        may be related in ways which may not be directly expressable.

                        However, "may" does not equal "must". I've also noted that there are
                        a class of tables which seem to map, very plainly and simply, to
                        objects (or something) in the software, and where separate tests are
                        not only redundant, they are a violation of the DRY principle: Don't
                        repeat yourself.

                        The biggest example I've got here (within FIT) is the mapping from
                        labels to programming language identifiers. The unittest (unittest is
                        Python's version of xUnit) code for this duplicates the table in
                        Rick Mugridge's specification suite for ExtendedCamelCase.
                        I've got other examples, and I've noticed the tendency to write
                        some HTML, especially to drive fixtures from the doTable,
                        doRows or doRow methods.

                        I don't think there's a real way around this since so much of
                        FIT revolves around the parse tree. I don't think I'd do this
                        in most real world applications, since the closest they get
                        to HTML is the FIT fixtures. The problem just doesn't occur
                        unless you're either working on FIT or on an HTML part of
                        a web application.

                        Much of the rest is simply tool support. Living in a tool
                        impoverished world gives me a somewhat different perspective.
                        I don't, for example, have anything that lets me click on a line
                        in a stack trace and go directly to the line in the code. I run
                        all my tests from a script in a command window. This may be
                        dark ages, but it does give me more leverage in running tests.
                        If I want to run FIT in my "t all" script, then it's very simple:
                        just add the necessary commands to the script. All I need
                        then is a way to specify which tests are wired directly to
                        functionality, and I'm almost home.

                        As it turns out, it's relatively easy in FitNesse to say
                        which tests to run: that's the virtual suite functionality.
                        I've got the same functionality (plus more) in batch that
                        will be in my 0.8 release. What's now missing is a way
                        of looking at the output and pinpointing anything that
                        went wrong (that is, stack traces).

                        In counterpoint though, I think Jim's viewpoint has one
                        really major plus: keeping things separate reduces coupling,
                        and coupling impacts our ability to change. Do I really want
                        the customer changing tables that I'm using as part of my
                        program specification suite? Especially if the change impacts
                        the design in a way that I can no longer use the table directly
                        as a developer specification?

                        John Roth


                        > Thanks,
                        > David
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • David Chelimsky
                        ... John - I appreciate the notion of keeping things separate. I don t want the customer changing tables that *I m* using as *programmer tests*. So that s a
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                          yahoogroups@... wrote:
                          > In counterpoint though, I think Jim's viewpoint has one
                          > really major plus: keeping things separate reduces coupling,
                          > and coupling impacts our ability to change. Do I really want
                          > the customer changing tables that I'm using as part of my
                          > program specification suite? Especially if the change impacts
                          > the design in a way that I can no longer use the table directly
                          > as a developer specification?
                          John - I appreciate the notion of keeping things separate. I don't want
                          the customer changing tables that *I'm* using as *programmer tests*. So
                          that's a problem if we're trying to reduce duplication - especially with
                          the current lack of good FIT refatoring tools. I'd probably end up w/
                          duplication between the customer's fit tests and mine :)

                          However, I do get a little jealous of my customers who get to express
                          their specs in this beautiful, simple, easy to glean tabular format when
                          I feel sort of stuck w/ a less expressive tool (for certain problems) in
                          xUnit. Obviously xUnit is extraordinarily expressive, and I have no
                          interest in replacing xUnit w/ FIT as a unit testing tool. But I do want
                          to be able to take advantage of FIT where it makes sense to do so.

                          -David Chelimsky
                        • Rob Park
                          My 2 cents (or at least how we treat it) are that the details of your MVP, subsequent DAOs, and any of the other little individual things it must do are
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                            My 2 cents (or at least how we treat it) are that the details of your MVP,
                            subsequent DAOs, and any of the other little individual things it must do
                            are subjects for unit testing (aka programmer tests). Fit fixtures can be
                            written to tap into your presenter (as just another view). Then you can
                            right FitNesse tests (aka customer tests) to simulate and test important
                            customer actions, which inevitably are very closely aligned with the story
                            (more than the code itself).

                            Hope that helps.

                            .rob.

                            >...
                            >
                            >Now we are starting to gather the requirements. My usual way, the XP way
                            >is to plan the first relase first, by having a pile of user stories, then
                            >adding details to them as acceptance tests, more when the iteration is
                            >planned. However, writing FIT tests in fitnesse seems like a very nice
                            >thing to do, but what confuses us is what should be automated as
                            >unit/integration tests with NUnit/NMock and what should be automated as
                            >Fit tests?
                            >
                            >For instance, obviously an application like this will have an order form,
                            >order will have a list of order details. My way would be to build the
                            >form, using TDD and the MVP pattern. At the same time, I think that I
                            >could construct a test as a fit table, them make an adapter, and build the
                            >part of the form to make the test pass, build a new one and so on until I
                            >have m order form constructed. Fit tests are much more visual, but a lot
                            >slower. What should I do? What should really be Fit tests and what NUnit?
                            >Where's the line?
                            >
                            >Thanks,
                            >Dan
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 06:20:22 +0200, Jim Shore <jshore@...>
                            >wrote:
                            >
                            > > I've just posted a new essay on my blog titled "How I Use Fit." It's
                            > > based on my recent post to this group about Fit and TDD.
                            > >
                            > > As I look back, I realize that I've now closed the circle on a pretty
                            > > substantial cycle of essays on agile requirements. I now cover
                            > > everything from planning months of releases down to how to write a
                            > > single section of Fit document, the work of an hour. Pretty cool.
                            > > (Hey, wait! Shouldn't I demand big bucks for this stuff?)
                            > >
                            > > * "Beyond Story Cards" describes how I prefer to handle requirements
                            > > over the course of developing an entire software product.
                            > > * "Fit Workflow" describes how I use Fit to facilitate collaboration on
                            > > requirements during a single iteration.
                            > > * "A Vision for Fit" gives a concrete example of using Fit to facilite
                            > > collaboration.
                            > > * Describe-Demonstrate-Develop, in "How I Use Fit" describes how I
                            > > prefer to develop the Fit document, fixtures, and how actual software
                            > > development comes into play.
                            > > * "Elaborating on a Theme," also in "How I Use Fit," describes how I
                            > > structure Fit documents and their examples.
                            > >
                            > > Find links to these essays at
                            > > http://www.jamesshore.com/Blog/Agile-Requirements.html
                            > >
                            > > Cheers,
                            > > Jim
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Rick Mugridge
                            ... Hi David, I have no problem, in principle, in using Fit for unit tests and JUnit for storytests. It depends on the abilities of the human readers and the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                              David Chelimsky wrote:

                              > ...
                              >
                              >However, I do get a little jealous of my customers who get to express
                              >their specs in this beautiful, simple, easy to glean tabular format when
                              >I feel sort of stuck w/ a less expressive tool (for certain problems) in
                              >xUnit. Obviously xUnit is extraordinarily expressive, and I have no
                              >interest in replacing xUnit w/ FIT as a unit testing tool. But I do want
                              >to be able to take advantage of FIT where it makes sense to do so.
                              >
                              >-David Chelimsky
                              >
                              >
                              Hi David,

                              I have no problem, in principle, in using Fit for unit tests and JUnit
                              for storytests. It depends on the abilities of the human readers and the
                              writers, and then on the form of the tests as to which is best. (I also
                              use Fit for defining builds and other things besides.)

                              I do agree that the Customers' storytests need to be kept separate from
                              the programmers' Fit unit tests. I also want to keep separate the Fit
                              storytests that define the PUBLISHED LANGUAGE (DomainDrivenDesign) for a
                              subsystem. And also the storytests that are specific to installation and
                              on-site maintenance. And etc.

                              Cheers, Rick
                            • Rick Mugridge
                              Yes, I think they re just tackling different levels of the system. With good tool support, I could image using Fit for all my unit testing as well. I look
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                Yes, I think they're just tackling different levels of the system. With
                                good tool support, I could image using Fit for all my unit testing as
                                well. I look forward to trying this out.

                                Cheers, Rick

                                Steven Gordon wrote:

                                > ...
                                >
                                >And, as Dadi points out, xUnit supports the automated verification of TDD
                                >specifications, allowing them to also function as automated unit tests for
                                >any software that purports to satisfy those specifications.
                                >
                                >Likewise, Fit/Fitnesse supports the automated verification of Application
                                >Domain specifications, allowing them to also function as automated
                                >integration tests for any software that purports to satisfy those
                                >specifications.
                                >
                                >Two sides of two similar coins.
                                >
                                >Regards,
                                >
                                >Steve
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Rick Mugridge
                                Hi David, Yes, I agree with your point of view and have seen it work very well in practice. With calculation rules like your validation table, it makes much
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                  Hi David,

                                  Yes, I agree with your point of view and have seen it work very well in
                                  practice. With calculation rules like your validation table, it makes
                                  much sense to have them expressed directly in the code, taking a domain
                                  driven design approach. I've noticed that tthe business logic often gets
                                  little attention, and this helps bring a focus to it.

                                  Of course, there still needs to be unit tests for driving the
                                  infrastructure (non domain) parts.

                                  Cheers, Rick

                                  David Chelimsky wrote:

                                  >Jim Shore wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>I would suggest using NUnit to test everything that you as programmers
                                  >>feel should be tested. I don't see Fit as a testing tool.
                                  >>
                                  >>I use Fit to provide examples of complicated requirements. I don't try
                                  >>to test everything with Fit; I mainly just focus on examples of domain
                                  >>logic. I only occasionally provide examples of UI interaction or data
                                  >>translation: as a rule of thumb, I don't do it unless the UI interaction
                                  >> or data translation is complicated or Fit would facilitate discussion
                                  >>with non-programmers.
                                  >>
                                  >>I see NUnit and Fit as being orthogonal. They solve different problems
                                  >>and it's not that important that they both end up comparing 'expected'
                                  >>and 'actual' results.
                                  >>
                                  >>What's complicated about the application you're building? What's the
                                  >>"secret sauce"--the magic know-how that your application provides that
                                  >>no one else does? Provide Fit examples of that.
                                  >>
                                  >>I use TDD for everything, even if it has Fit examples too. When I write
                                  >>my NUnit tests, I use different data than my Fit examples. I TDD from a
                                  >>programming perspective... using data that reflects my knowledge of the
                                  >>program's edge cases, zero-one-many scenarios, etc.
                                  >>
                                  >>Cheers,
                                  >>Jim
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >I've generally operated this same way, but I've been having some second
                                  >thoughts. I was going to just respond here, but it got somewhat verbose
                                  >so I posted it:
                                  >http://butunclebob.com/ArticleS.DavidChelimsky.WhyLimitFit.
                                  >Coincidentally, that decision allowed me to better express some of the
                                  >things I had started to write in an email.
                                  >
                                  >Looking forward to your (Jim's and everyone else's) comments either here
                                  >or on the blog.
                                  >
                                  >Thanks,
                                  >David
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Dominic Williams
                                  ... Surely, evolving an expressive and consise domain-specific language for the programmer tests is exactly the same exercise as what XP tells us to do with
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                    David Chelimsky started:

                                    > However, I do get a little jealous of my customers
                                    > who get to express their specs in this beautiful,
                                    > simple, easy to glean tabular format when I feel sort
                                    > of stuck w/ a less expressive tool (for certain
                                    > problems) in xUnit.

                                    and Rick Mugridge continued:

                                    > With good tool support, I could image using Fit for
                                    > all my unit testing as well. I look forward to trying
                                    > this out.

                                    Surely, evolving an expressive and consise
                                    domain-specific language for the programmer tests is
                                    exactly the same exercise as what XP tells us to do
                                    with the code?

                                    I am wondering what it says about our programming
                                    languages or our ability to use them creatively that
                                    programmers should be wanting to use FIT rather than
                                    code for programmer tests...

                                    Would you still want to if you were coding in Lisp or
                                    Smalltalk or Ruby or something?

                                    Anyway, even with C++ or Java, I don't think I'd want
                                    to do programmer tests in FIT: when coding tests is
                                    painful, I know I need to improve the design.

                                    Regards,

                                    Dominic Williams
                                    http://www.dominicwilliams.net

                                    ----
                                  • Rick Mugridge
                                    ... Please notice that I m not advocating this as a general approach! And I doubt that I ll end up wanting to change. But I think it s worth trying it. TDD
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                      Dominic Williams wrote:

                                      >David Chelimsky started:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >>However, I do get a little jealous of my customers
                                      >>who get to express their specs in this beautiful,
                                      >>simple, easy to glean tabular format when I feel sort
                                      >>of stuck w/ a less expressive tool (for certain
                                      >>problems) in xUnit.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >and Rick Mugridge continued:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >>With good tool support, I could image using Fit for
                                      >>all my unit testing as well. I look forward to trying
                                      >>this out.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >Surely, evolving an expressive and consise
                                      >domain-specific language for the programmer tests is
                                      >exactly the same exercise as what XP tells us to do
                                      >with the code?
                                      >
                                      >I am wondering what it says about our programming
                                      >languages or our ability to use them creatively that
                                      >programmers should be wanting to use FIT rather than
                                      >code for programmer tests...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Please notice that I'm not advocating this as a general approach! And I
                                      doubt that I'll end up wanting to change. But I think it's worth trying
                                      it. TDD would be unknown if someone didn't try something that seemed
                                      very odd to begin with. I often learn something from pushing the
                                      boundaries, even if I just understand my assumptions better.

                                      >Would you still want to if you were coding in Lisp or
                                      >Smalltalk or Ruby or something?
                                      >Anyway, even with C++ or Java, I don't think I'd want
                                      >to do programmer tests in FIT: when coding tests is
                                      >painful, I know I need to improve the design.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Fit could be useful is in setting up compex object structures, which can
                                      be a real pain in Java. Ruby, of course, provides much better support
                                      for this. But I personally prefer statically typed languages as a design
                                      medium, having seriously tried a variety of types of language.

                                      So, yes, it highlights the limits of the design of programming
                                      languages, which are still (mostly) in the days of ascii.

                                      Cheers, Rick

                                      >Regards,
                                      >
                                      >Dominic Williams
                                      >http://www.dominicwilliams.net
                                      >
                                      >


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