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Interviews [OT?]

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  • PierG
    Ciao, looking for team members for an agile team, we focus on: 1. personal attitude for communication, feedback, team working ... 2. techincal skills (design,
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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      Ciao,
      looking for team members for an agile team, we focus on:
      1. personal attitude for communication, feedback, team working ...
      2. techincal skills (design, coding technique ...)

      I'd like to know how you interview your candidates on item #2.
      Do you ask them to solve a problem? Do you ask them to write code? How
      do you test their, for example, test first techinque/attitude?

      PierG
    • Greg Akins
      Johanna Rothman has a lot to say about interviewing & hiring technical people Her blog is here http://www.jrothman.com/weblog/htpblogger.html There is also a
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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        Johanna Rothman has a lot to say about interviewing & hiring technical
        people

        Her blog is here http://www.jrothman.com/weblog/htpblogger.html

        There is also a podcast, by her, on hiring technical people. Don't know the
        link off hand though.

        On 11/29/05, PierG <piergiorgio_grossi@...> wrote:
        >
        > Ciao,
        > looking for team members for an agile team, we focus on:
        > 1. personal attitude for communication, feedback, team working ...
        > 2. techincal skills (design, coding technique ...)
        >
        > I'd like to know how you interview your candidates on item #2.
        > Do you ask them to solve a problem? Do you ask them to write code? How
        > do you test their, for example, test first techinque/attitude?
        >
        > PierG
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeff Grigg
        ... Possibly... 2/4/2005 The Sound of Vision http://www.thevisionthing.com/index.php?p=63 Contents: 1:34: Projects gone wrong: Objectives vs. Assumptions
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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          --- Greg Akins <angrygreg@g...> wrote:
          > Johanna Rothman has a lot to say about interviewing &
          > hiring technical people
          >
          > Her blog is here http://www.jrothman.com/weblog/htpblogger.html
          >
          > There is also a podcast, by her, on hiring technical people.
          > Don't know the link off hand though.

          Possibly...
          2/4/2005
          "The Sound of Vision"
          http://www.thevisionthing.com/index.php?p=63

          Contents:
          1:34: Projects gone wrong: Objectives vs. Assumptions
          9:41: Hal Macomber from Reforming Project Management
          26:10: Johanna Rothman from Managing Product Development
          46:19: Clarke Ching from I Think Not, Baby Puppy
        • Randy Coulman
          ... During my last job search, I had several interviews where I paired with people on various tasks (some were actual tasks for a real project; others were
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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            On 11/29/05, PierG <piergiorgio_grossi@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ciao,
            > looking for team members for an agile team, we focus on:
            > 1. personal attitude for communication, feedback, team working ...
            > 2. techincal skills (design, coding technique ...)
            >
            > I'd like to know how you interview your candidates on item #2.
            > Do you ask them to solve a problem? Do you ask them to write code? How
            > do you test their, for example, test first techinque/attitude?
            >
            >
            During my last job search, I had several interviews where I paired with
            people on various tasks (some were actual tasks for a real project; others
            were example problems). I loved interviewing this way, because it told both
            of us something about how things would be if I was hired.

            When hiring others, we did similar things. Our last hiring experience,
            however, was for an entry-level person, and the people we interviewed felt
            very intimidated by having to write code and pair. We tried to be very
            reassuring, but they were still intimidated.

            Randy
            --
            Randy Coulman
            rcoulman@...


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Carr
            Hi, Could you tell me where that was? I d find that the best way for an employer to interview someone as it really shows their skill. I ve interviewed at
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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              Hi,
              Could you tell me where that was? I'd find that the best way for an
              employer to interview someone as it really shows their skill. I've
              interviewed at places who, rather than pay any heed to your
              accomplishments or actual skill, instead rely on total years of
              experience and nothing else.

              This seems rather lackluster in my honest opinion as skill is
              relative. Although I would expect one with, say, 5 years of experience
              to really know their stuff, I have worked with people in the past who
              had 8 years of experience, yet seemed to have slacked in their
              learning and really had the skill level expected from someone who just
              got out of college.

              IMHO, I think an ideal way would be to propose a business problem that
              is simple enough to implement with a class or two and no more than 100
              lines of code, but at a level that someone below the skill level you
              are expecting would have a bit of trouble. Pairing also sounds like a
              great idea too.

              Cheers,
              JC


              On 11/29/05, Randy Coulman <rcoulman@...> wrote:
              > On 11/29/05, PierG <piergiorgio_grossi@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Ciao,
              > > looking for team members for an agile team, we focus on:
              > > 1. personal attitude for communication, feedback, team working ...
              > > 2. techincal skills (design, coding technique ...)
              > >
              > > I'd like to know how you interview your candidates on item #2.
              > > Do you ask them to solve a problem? Do you ask them to write code? How
              > > do you test their, for example, test first techinque/attitude?
              > >
              > >
              > During my last job search, I had several interviews where I paired with
              > people on various tasks (some were actual tasks for a real project; others
              > were example problems). I loved interviewing this way, because it told both
              > of us something about how things would be if I was hired.
              >
              > When hiring others, we did similar things. Our last hiring experience,
              > however, was for an entry-level person, and the people we interviewed felt
              > very intimidated by having to write code and pair. We tried to be very
              > reassuring, but they were still intimidated.
              >
              > Randy
              > --
              > Randy Coulman
              > rcoulman@...
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Randy Coulman
              ... There were actually three different places where I did this. One of them I had to ask for it, but the other two did it as a matter of course. I was
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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                On 11/29/05, James Carr <james.r.carr@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                > Could you tell me where that was? I'd find that the best way for an
                > employer to interview someone as it really shows their skill. I've
                > interviewed at places who, rather than pay any heed to your
                > accomplishments or actual skill, instead rely on total years of
                > experience and nothing else.


                There were actually three different places where I did this. One of them I
                had to ask for it, but the other two did it as a matter of course. I was
                specifically looking for an XP shop, so the places I was applying were
                biased towards this approach. When hiring for an XP team, you tend to put
                more emphasis on finding someone who will blend well into the team, so the
                pairing part is much more important.

                This seems rather lackluster in my honest opinion as skill is
                > relative. Although I would expect one with, say, 5 years of experience
                > to really know their stuff, I have worked with people in the past who
                > had 8 years of experience, yet seemed to have slacked in their
                > learning and really had the skill level expected from someone who just
                > got out of college.


                I've read the comment here about people who have 1 year of experience 8
                times over vs. someone with 8 years of experience. Sounds like what you're
                talking about.

                IMHO, I think an ideal way would be to propose a business problem that
                > is simple enough to implement with a class or two and no more than 100
                > lines of code, but at a level that someone below the skill level you
                > are expecting would have a bit of trouble. Pairing also sounds like a
                > great idea too.


                You have to be careful with straight-up coding tests. They can turn some
                people off. I much prefer pairing with someone I might have to work with
                day-in and day-out. As for what the task should be, you want something that
                will showcase the important skills you're looking for. In our case, we were
                hiring for an entry-level position, so we focussed mainly on whether the
                candidates knew something about how to make a computer do what they want (in
                a language they had learned in school), and also for whether they had any
                sense of coding style/cleanliness/design ability. We figured we could teach
                the technical details through pairing if they had a good enough foundation
                to build on, and some of the right instincts. In this case, we were right.

                Randy
                --
                Randy Coulman
                rcoulman@...


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kevin Lawrence
                ... I like to have a roleplaying design session where we jointly design a solution to a simple problem. I like to pick a problem that is relevant to the
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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                  On 11/29/05, PierG <piergiorgio_grossi@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ciao,
                  > looking for team members for an agile team, we focus on:
                  > 1. personal attitude for communication, feedback, team working ...
                  > 2. techincal skills (design, coding technique ...)
                  >
                  > I'd like to know how you interview your candidates on item #2.
                  > Do you ask them to solve a problem? Do you ask them to write code? How
                  > do you test their, for example, test first techinque/attitude?



                  I like to have a roleplaying design session where we jointly design a
                  solution to a simple problem. I like to pick a problem that is relevant to
                  the position we are recruiting for and that the candidate is very familiar
                  with so they don't get stuck on technical issues. I posted a sample
                  interview question for J2EE candidates a couple of weeks ago at *
                  http://tinyurl.com/d23x3* In other interviews we have designed mail clients,
                  search UIs, coke machines.

                  Other interviewers at my company focus on more specific technical issues but
                  I like to have a broad, flowing conversation that gives the candidate a
                  chance to talk about something they know well and can discuss confidently.

                  Kevin


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Shane Mingins
                  It s here: http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail392.html Cheers Shane ... -- Shane Mingins [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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                    It's here:

                    http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail392.html

                    Cheers
                    Shane



                    On 11/30/05, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- Greg Akins <angrygreg@g...> wrote:
                    > > Johanna Rothman has a lot to say about interviewing &
                    > > hiring technical people
                    > >
                    > > Her blog is here http://www.jrothman.com/weblog/htpblogger.html
                    > >
                    > > There is also a podcast, by her, on hiring technical people.
                    > > Don't know the link off hand though.
                    >
                    > Possibly...
                    > 2/4/2005
                    > "The Sound of Vision"
                    > http://www.thevisionthing.com/index.php?p=63
                    >
                    > Contents:
                    > 1:34: Projects gone wrong: Objectives vs. Assumptions
                    > 9:41: Hal Macomber from Reforming Project Management
                    > 26:10: Johanna Rothman from Managing Product Development
                    > 46:19: Clarke Ching from I Think Not, Baby Puppy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Shane Mingins


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Greg Akins
                    That s the one I was thinking of... Thanks! ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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                      That's the one I was thinking of... Thanks!

                      On 11/29/05, Shane Mingins <shane.mingins@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > It's here:
                      >
                      > http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail392.html
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      > Shane
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On 11/30/05, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- Greg Akins <angrygreg@g...> wrote:
                      > > > Johanna Rothman has a lot to say about interviewing &
                      > > > hiring technical people
                      > > >
                      > > > Her blog is here http://www.jrothman.com/weblog/htpblogger.html
                      > > >
                      > > > There is also a podcast, by her, on hiring technical people.
                      > > > Don't know the link off hand though.
                      > >
                      > > Possibly...
                      > > 2/4/2005
                      > > "The Sound of Vision"
                      > > http://www.thevisionthing.com/index.php?p=63
                      > >
                      > > Contents:
                      > > 1:34: Projects gone wrong: Objectives vs. Assumptions
                      > > 9:41: Hal Macomber from Reforming Project Management
                      > > 26:10: Johanna Rothman from Managing Product Development
                      > > 46:19: Clarke Ching from I Think Not, Baby Puppy
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      > >
                      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      > >
                      > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Shane Mingins
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Doug Swartz
                      ... Our interview process usually takes about half a day, or a little more. We have the person pair with two or three different people. We expect the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 29, 2005
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                        Tuesday, November 29, 2005, 2:45:51 AM, PierG wrote:

                        > Ciao,
                        > looking for team members for an agile team, we focus on:
                        > 1. personal attitude for communication, feedback, team working ...
                        > 2. techincal skills (design, coding technique ...)

                        > I'd like to know how you interview your candidates on item #2.
                        > Do you ask them to solve a problem? Do you ask them to write code? How
                        > do you test their, for example, test first techinque/attitude?

                        Our interview process usually takes about half a day, or a
                        little more.

                        We have the person pair with two or three different people. We
                        expect the interviewee to show us something of their technical
                        and interpersonal skills during the pairing. The interviewee
                        drives during the pairing sessions. The different pairing
                        partners use different approaches to evaluating the persons
                        pairing and technical skills. One session will be a
                        refactoring exercise on a small section of our code. We use
                        the same exercise with all candidates for a particular
                        language. Another exercise will have the candidate (and her
                        partner) implement a small enhancement card for one of our
                        apps. During this session the partner plays the dual roles of
                        customer and pairing partner.

                        At the end of the interview day we have the candidate do a
                        short (30 minutes, or so) whiteboard design session. We
                        present the candidate with a scenario and ask them to
                        brainstorm with us a design approach for the problem. We often
                        use a board game or card game with which the candidate is
                        familiar as a domain for the exercise. For instance: "We've
                        been asked to implement a solitaire game on the web. What
                        might a design look like to approach this problem?" Some
                        candidates delve into domain object design right away. Some
                        ask questions about architecture. Some start with user
                        interface questions (or god forbid, start giving answers
                        without asking questions). Like good customers, we steer with
                        some of our answers and our questions. We steer the candidate
                        away from GUI discussions. We ask slightly leading questions
                        to help obviously nervous candidates remember aspects of the
                        design they might overlook.

                        We could care less whether the candidate writes notes on the
                        board, uses full RUP notation, or just boxes and squiggles.
                        The goal of the design session is to get a picture of how the
                        candidate approaches problems and how he interacts. We always
                        tell the candidate "There are no right or wrong answers. We
                        really just want to get a feel for how you approach designing
                        systems." This exercise gets us a pretty good sense of whether
                        the candidate has 1 year of experience 8 times, or 8 years of
                        experience.

                        I think some candidates are pretty intimidated, especially by
                        the design session. We try to keep it as low key as possible,
                        but interviews can be stressful, and the design portion of our
                        interview has the candidate being interviewed by several
                        people at once. Other candidates, however, seem to enjoy the
                        experience.



                        --

                        Doug Swartz
                        daswartz@...
                      • Jim McFarland
                        ... While I agree that including pair programming in the interview process gives you a better evaluation of the candidates, do those companies which use that
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 30, 2005
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                          On 11/29/05, Doug Swartz <daswartz@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Our interview process usually takes about half a day, or a
                          > little more.
                          >

                          While I agree that including pair programming in the interview process
                          gives you a better evaluation of the candidates, do those companies
                          which use that approach consider that being able to commit that much
                          time to an interview is not always feasible for the candidates who
                          have jobs. If you are out of work, it's no big deal, but if you are
                          employed, you can't always use time off for an interview that may not
                          produce a job. If you interviewed with a few XP shops you could add
                          up significant time away from your current job very quickly. Anyway,
                          just a concern that the interviewers need to consider.

                          later...
                          jim
                        • Daryl Richter
                          ... I recently had an interesting interview process. After spending 8 hours interviewing and taking programming tests I was informed that I had passed those
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 30, 2005
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                            On Nov 30, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Jim McFarland wrote:

                            > On 11/29/05, Doug Swartz <daswartz@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Our interview process usually takes about half a day, or a
                            >> little more.
                            >>
                            >
                            > While I agree that including pair programming in the interview process
                            > gives you a better evaluation of the candidates, do those companies
                            > which use that approach consider that being able to commit that much
                            > time to an interview is not always feasible for the candidates who
                            > have jobs. If you are out of work, it's no big deal, but if you are
                            > employed, you can't always use time off for an interview that may not
                            > produce a job. If you interviewed with a few XP shops you could add
                            > up significant time away from your current job very quickly. Anyway,
                            > just a concern that the interviewers need to consider.
                            >
                            > later...
                            > jim
                            >

                            I recently had an interesting interview process. After spending 8
                            hours interviewing and taking programming tests I was informed that I
                            had passed those trials and was now invited to participate in 2 more
                            complete 9-5 days of interviewing!

                            Fortunately, I was not desperate to find a job and I declined to
                            participate in this, um, process. Their loss.

                            [snip]

                            --
                            Daryl
                            self email: ( daryl at: eddl dot: us )
                          • Doug Swartz
                            ... I think you have a point. I believe the only people who we ve asked to come to an interview who declined, had already taken other jobs, but it s worth
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 30, 2005
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                              Wednesday, November 30, 2005, 2:13:04 PM, Jim McFarland wrote:

                              > On 11/29/05, Doug Swartz <daswartz@...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >> Our interview process usually takes about half a day, or a
                              >> little more.
                              >>

                              > While I agree that including pair programming in the interview process
                              > gives you a better evaluation of the candidates, do those companies
                              > which use that approach consider that being able to commit that much
                              > time to an interview is not always feasible for the candidates who
                              > have jobs. If you are out of work, it's no big deal, but if you are
                              > employed, you can't always use time off for an interview that may not
                              > produce a job. If you interviewed with a few XP shops you could add
                              > up significant time away from your current job very quickly. Anyway,
                              > just a concern that the interviewers need to consider.

                              I think you have a point. I believe the only people who we've
                              asked to come to an interview who declined, had already taken
                              other jobs, but it's worth keeping in mind.

                              We always do a phone interview first. So we try to only bring
                              people on-site who we feel have a good chance of being hired.
                              Of course we still hire less than 50%.



                              --

                              Doug Swartz
                              daswartz@...
                            • Doug Swartz
                              ... Wow! That s a lot of commitment. It s a bigger commitment for the hiring organization than the interviewee, though. I wonder how well it works for them. --
                              Message 14 of 16 , Nov 30, 2005
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                                Wednesday, November 30, 2005, 5:20:22 PM, Daryl Richter wrote:


                                > On Nov 30, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Jim McFarland wrote:

                                >> On 11/29/05, Doug Swartz <daswartz@...> wrote:
                                >>>
                                >>> Our interview process usually takes about half a day, or a
                                >>> little more.
                                >>>
                                >>
                                >> While I agree that including pair programming in the interview process
                                >> gives you a better evaluation of the candidates, do those companies
                                >> which use that approach consider that being able to commit that much
                                >> time to an interview is not always feasible for the candidates who
                                >> have jobs. If you are out of work, it's no big deal, but if you are
                                >> employed, you can't always use time off for an interview that may not
                                >> produce a job. If you interviewed with a few XP shops you could add
                                >> up significant time away from your current job very quickly. Anyway,
                                >> just a concern that the interviewers need to consider.
                                >>
                                >> later...
                                >> jim
                                >>

                                > I recently had an interesting interview process. After spending 8
                                > hours interviewing and taking programming tests I was informed that I
                                > had passed those trials and was now invited to participate in 2 more
                                > complete 9-5 days of interviewing!

                                > Fortunately, I was not desperate to find a job and I declined to
                                > participate in this, um, process. Their loss.

                                Wow! That's a lot of commitment. It's a bigger commitment
                                for the hiring organization than the interviewee, though. I
                                wonder how well it works for them.


                                --

                                Doug Swartz
                                daswartz@...
                              • Daryl Richter
                                ... [snip] ... They are a very unique company with an unusual management structure that makes this somewhat understandable, but I would be surprised if many
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                  On Nov 30, 2005, at 9:45 PM, Doug Swartz wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Wednesday, November 30, 2005, 5:20:22 PM, Daryl Richter wrote:
                                  >
                                  >

                                  [snip]

                                  >> I recently had an interesting interview process. After spending 8
                                  >> hours interviewing and taking programming tests I was informed that I
                                  >> had passed those trials and was now invited to participate in 2 more
                                  >> complete 9-5 days of interviewing!
                                  >
                                  >> Fortunately, I was not desperate to find a job and I declined to
                                  >> participate in this, um, process. Their loss.
                                  >
                                  > Wow! That's a lot of commitment. It's a bigger commitment
                                  > for the hiring organization than the interviewee, though. I
                                  > wonder how well it works for them.
                                  >

                                  They are a very unique company with an unusual management structure
                                  that makes this somewhat understandable, but I would be surprised if
                                  many high-quality, currently-employed people would give up 3 whole
                                  days to find out. They seem to be doing ok and were all really nice,
                                  so let's hope they succeed.

                                  >
                                  > --
                                  >
                                  > Doug Swartz
                                  > daswartz@...
                                  >

                                  [snip]

                                  --
                                  Daryl
                                  self email: ( daryl at: eddl dot: us )
                                • Doug Swartz
                                  ... Now I m really interested. I visited a pretty unique company once with an unusual management structure. Did this company happen to be on the east coast of
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                    Friday, December 02, 2005, 7:34:50 PM, Daryl Richter wrote:


                                    > On Nov 30, 2005, at 9:45 PM, Doug Swartz wrote:

                                    >>
                                    >> Wednesday, November 30, 2005, 5:20:22 PM, Daryl Richter wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >>

                                    > [snip]

                                    >>> I recently had an interesting interview process. After spending 8
                                    >>> hours interviewing and taking programming tests I was informed that I
                                    >>> had passed those trials and was now invited to participate in 2 more
                                    >>> complete 9-5 days of interviewing!
                                    >>
                                    >>> Fortunately, I was not desperate to find a job and I declined to
                                    >>> participate in this, um, process. Their loss.
                                    >>
                                    >> Wow! That's a lot of commitment. It's a bigger commitment
                                    >> for the hiring organization than the interviewee, though. I
                                    >> wonder how well it works for them.
                                    >>

                                    > They are a very unique company with an unusual management structure
                                    > that makes this somewhat understandable, but I would be surprised if
                                    > many high-quality, currently-employed people would give up 3 whole
                                    > days to find out. They seem to be doing ok and were all really nice,
                                    > so let's hope they succeed.

                                    Now I'm really interested. I visited a pretty unique company
                                    once with an unusual management structure. Did this company
                                    happen to be on the east coast of the United States. Did they
                                    have a software product which seems to be pretty powerful,
                                    which is in use by some large corporations, but they have
                                    absolutely no sales staff. Do they have pretty darn cool toys
                                    in their curvilinear workstations, and giant cutout corporate
                                    logos of their customers sitting around on the floor?

                                    Oh well. It doesn't matter. I just wondered if we'd
                                    accidentally run across the same company in two different
                                    contexts.



                                    --

                                    Doug Swartz
                                    daswartz@...
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