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Fast Company Article - The 10 Faces of Innovation

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  • Gary Brown
    When I was trying to *sell* XP and TDD, I got foiled by the devil s advocate gambit over and over. I really could have used this bit of wisdom ...
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 25, 2005
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      When I was trying to *sell* XP and TDD, I got foiled by the devil's
      advocate gambit over and over. I really could have used this bit of
      wisdom ...

      http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/99/faces-of-innovation.html

      Gary Brown
      CARFAX, Inc.
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Gary! You re alive! Good to see you! It s an interesting article. I notice that the 10 personas they offer are all postive in nature. I think that s a
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 25, 2005
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        On Tuesday, October 25, 2005, at 4:32:21 PM, Gary Brown wrote:

        > When I was trying to *sell* XP and TDD, I got foiled by the devil's
        > advocate gambit over and over. I really could have used this bit of
        > wisdom ...

        > http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/99/faces-of-innovation.html

        Gary! You're alive! Good to see you!

        It's an interesting article. I notice that the 10 personas they
        offer are all "postive" in nature. I think that's a good thing. But
        does it authorize us to shoot to kill the "devil's advocate"? If
        not, what do we do with 'em?

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        The practices are not the knowing: they are a path to the knowing.
      • Victor
        ... My exact same comments. I see a complaint about devil s advocates, but not any hint on how to deal with them. Besides, sometimes listening to a devil s
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 25, 2005
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          > It's an interesting article. I notice that the 10 personas they
          > offer are all "postive" in nature. I think that's a good thing. But
          > does it authorize us to shoot to kill the "devil's advocate"? If
          > not, what do we do with 'em?

          My exact same comments. I see a complaint about devil's advocates, but not
          any hint on how to deal with them. Besides, sometimes listening to a
          devil's advocate can avoid disasters and strengthen a proposal.

          Victor


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
          To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:51 PM
          Subject: Re: [XP] Fast Company Article - The 10 Faces of Innovation


          > On Tuesday, October 25, 2005, at 4:32:21 PM, Gary Brown wrote:
          >
          > > When I was trying to *sell* XP and TDD, I got foiled by the devil's
          > > advocate gambit over and over. I really could have used this bit of
          > > wisdom ...
          >
          > > http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/99/faces-of-innovation.html
          >
          > Gary! You're alive! Good to see you!
          >
          > It's an interesting article. I notice that the 10 personas they
          > offer are all "postive" in nature. I think that's a good thing. But
          > does it authorize us to shoot to kill the "devil's advocate"? If
          > not, what do we do with 'em?
          >
          > Ron Jeffries
          > www.XProgramming.com
          > The practices are not the knowing: they are a path to the knowing.
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
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        • glbrown@inebraska.com
          ... It gives us ten angels to counter that one devil. Ten white hats to battle one black hat. GB. ... This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 25, 2005
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            Quoting Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>:

            > On Tuesday, October 25, 2005, at 4:32:21 PM, Gary Brown wrote:
            >
            > > When I was trying to *sell* XP and TDD, I got foiled by the devil's
            > > advocate gambit over and over. I really could have used this bit of
            > > wisdom ...
            >
            > > http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/99/faces-of-innovation.html
            >
            > Gary! You're alive! Good to see you!
            >
            > It's an interesting article. I notice that the 10 personas they
            > offer are all "postive" in nature. I think that's a good thing. But
            > does it authorize us to shoot to kill the "devil's advocate"? If
            > not, what do we do with 'em?

            It gives us ten angels to counter that one devil. Ten white hats to battle one
            black hat.

            GB.


            ----------------------------------------------------------------
            This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... Yes, in a group that will adopt those personas at least ... I d like to see that happen. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Accept your conditions, but not
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 25, 2005
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              On Tuesday, October 25, 2005, at 7:01:29 PM, glbrown@... wrote:

              >> It's an interesting article. I notice that the 10 personas they
              >> offer are all "postive" in nature. I think that's a good thing. But
              >> does it authorize us to shoot to kill the "devil's advocate"? If
              >> not, what do we do with 'em?

              > It gives us ten angels to counter that one devil. Ten white hats to battle one
              > black hat.

              Yes, in a group that will adopt those personas at least ... I'd like
              to see that happen.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Accept your conditions, but not your fate. -- Rod Walsh & Dan Carrison
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Devil s advocates everywhere would like to believe that. The DA position remains a very weak and likely damaging one. The same concerns can be raised and
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 25, 2005
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                Around Tuesday, October 25, 2005, 7:01:14 PM, Victor wrote:

                >> It's an interesting article. I notice that the 10 personas they
                >> offer are all "postive" in nature. I think that's a good thing. But
                >> does it authorize us to shoot to kill the "devil's advocate"? If
                >> not, what do we do with 'em?

                > My exact same comments. I see a complaint about devil's advocates, but not
                > any hint on how to deal with them. Besides, sometimes listening to a
                > devil's advocate can avoid disasters and strengthen a proposal.

                Devil's advocates everywhere would like to believe that. The DA
                position remains a very weak and likely damaging one. The same
                concerns can be raised and dealt with in a positive manner, without
                the risk of destroying the idea.

                I have come to believe that many times -- perhaps most -- the
                self-styled "devil's advocate" is not trying to make things go
                better, he's trying to preserve the status quo.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
              • Keith Ray
                some relevant links: http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2005/10/ death_by_devils.html One thing I know for sure, whether playing devil s
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 26, 2005
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                  some relevant links:

                  http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2005/10/
                  death_by_devils.html

                  One thing I know for sure, whether playing devil's advocate,
                  angel of optimism, or any other persona, I believe the emphasis
                  should be on offering solutions, not just criticism. Yes it's true
                  that one can know something is wrong without knowing how to fix it,
                  but if people tried to adopt the perspective that "I'm going to try
                  to always include possible alternatives and solutions when I
                  critcize", it might make meetings a little more bearable."

                  a comment on that page:

                  There is a great discussion along these lines in Valerie
                  Pierce's book 'Quick Thinking On Your Feet', with really helpful
                  techniques for recovering momentum if someone plays devil's advocate
                  or a nastier trick. If you are stuck with a devil's advocate, make
                  the most of their creativity in coming up with ways in which the
                  project will fail, and use those objections to strengthen your
                  project. Valerie refers to this as turning "No, because" into "Yes,
                  if". "No, we can't do this because the printer is broken." is the
                  same as "Yes, we can do this if the printer gets fixed." If you can
                  turn the devil's "no, because" into a "yes, if" then you have a
                  stronger project.
                  Posted by: Ana Nelson | Oct 7, 2005 4:29:35 AM"



                  http://blog.codahale.com/2005/10/07/who-is-the-devils-advocate-anyway/

                  "When they ask whether or not something is possible, they’re
                  thinking about solving a problem. Give them that problem to solve:
                  ask them how what the answer to their question is. They’re part of a
                  team, and if you give them something to work on, they’ll go to town.
                  If you try to shoot down the necessity of asking “is this possible?”
                  then things get vicious.

                  "Blue/Green thinkers tend to leave coming up with ideas to the
                  other colors, and really enjoy focusing on implementation. Nothing’s
                  more fun than taking a good idea and putting legs on it; it’s one
                  thing to have good ideas, Blue people say, it’s another to make good
                  things. Playing down the necessity of asking the “hard questions”
                  will simply prove to the Blue thinker that you aren’t serious about
                  it, probably due to a lack of capacity. But if you understand what
                  they’re trying to do, you can reframe their question and give them
                  the pleasure of solving a tricky problem: “Geez, that’s a good
                  question. What do you think? I know you’ve probably got a lot of
                  ideas on problems like these, and we really need that kind of
                  creative input from someone with your technical background.”"


                  See also

                  http://www.chacocanyon.com/pointlookout/030709.shtml

                  "In the workplace, we use "but" to refute or devalue the
                  positions of others. A common form is "<Statement1> but <Statement2>
                  and <Bad-Implication>". Even if our intention is to acknowledge
                  Statement1, and then add Statement2, and possibly the Implication,
                  the receiver might hear us as rejecting Statement1."

                  "Probably "but" is the most popular form of issue raising.
                  Because it's so common, it carries with it the baggage of abuse. It's
                  often used as a tool for excessive discounting of counterbalancing
                  issues."


                  On Oct 25, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Victor wrote:

                  >> It's an interesting article. I notice that the 10 personas they
                  >> offer are all "postive" in nature. I think that's a good thing. But
                  >> does it authorize us to shoot to kill the "devil's advocate"? If
                  >> not, what do we do with 'em?
                  >>
                  >
                  > My exact same comments. I see a complaint about devil's advocates,
                  > but not
                  > any hint on how to deal with them. Besides, sometimes listening to a
                  > devil's advocate can avoid disasters and strengthen a proposal.
                  >
                  > Victor
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
                  > To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:51 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [XP] Fast Company Article - The 10 Faces of Innovation
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >> On Tuesday, October 25, 2005, at 4:32:21 PM, Gary Brown wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>> When I was trying to *sell* XP and TDD, I got foiled by the devil's
                  >>> advocate gambit over and over. I really could have used this bit of
                  >>> wisdom ...
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>> http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/99/faces-of-innovation.html
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >> Gary! You're alive! Good to see you!
                  >>
                  >> It's an interesting article. I notice that the 10 personas they
                  >> offer are all "postive" in nature. I think that's a good thing. But
                  >> does it authorize us to shoot to kill the "devil's advocate"? If
                  >> not, what do we do with 'em?
                  >>
                  >> Ron Jeffries
                  >> www.XProgramming.com
                  >> The practices are not the knowing: they are a path to the knowing.
                  >>

                  --
                  C. Keith Ray
                  <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/blog/index.html>
                  <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html>
                  <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/resume2.html>
                • Ron Jeffries
                  ... Nice picks, Keith. Thanks! Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com I could be wrong, of course. It s just not the way to bet.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 26, 2005
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                    On Wednesday, October 26, 2005, at 10:52:35 AM, Keith Ray wrote:

                    > some relevant links:

                    Nice picks, Keith. Thanks!

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    I could be wrong, of course. It's just not the way to bet.
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