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RE: Re: [XP] Disruptions

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  • Kent Beck
    Steve, I agree. I didn t intend to imply that the original discussion was not valuable. It reminded me that design decisions are made while writing tests as
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
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      Steve,

      I agree. I didn't intend to imply that the original discussion was not
      valuable. It reminded me that design decisions are made while writing tests
      as well as refactoring, so while test-after+refactoring might result in
      flexible code it is a different beast than test-before+refactoring. It was
      the subsequent diversion of the discussion that I found off-topic for my
      understanding and application of XP. I'm sure there are groups for
      discussing the nature of language and the nuances of word meanings.
      Sincerely yours,

      Kent Beck
      Three Rivers Institute

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven Gordon
      > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:43 PM
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: OT: Re: [XP] Disruptions
      >
      > I believe the issue of whether TDD intrinsically leads to
      > better designs
      > than just OO and refactoring not driven by unit tests is
      > indeed relevant to
      > XP. It is an issue that a fence-straddling alpha programmer
      > might raise.
      > Examining the issue has reminded me about the communication
      > value of the
      > tests themselves.
      > How the discussion evolved from the initial few postings, including
      > Alistair's part in the escalation of rhetoric, was the source
      > of disruption
      > from my point of view.
      > Steven Gordon
      >
      > On 9/28/05, Kent Beck <kentb@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > I've noticed that the recent discussion of the nature of
      > language is not
      > > the
      > > first time Alistair Cockburn has dropped in to this list,
      > poked around
      > > until
      > > a heated but irrelevant (to XP) argument started, then disappeared.
      > >
      > > Kent Beck
      > > Three Rivers Institute
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
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    • Donald Roby
      ... writing tests ... It was ... Communication is a rather important facet of XP in my understanding. Language and the meaning of words being quite important
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
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        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kent Beck" <kentb@e...> wrote:
        > Steve,
        >
        > I agree. I didn't intend to imply that the original discussion was not
        > valuable. It reminded me that design decisions are made while
        writing tests
        > as well as refactoring, so while test-after+refactoring might result in
        > flexible code it is a different beast than test-before+refactoring.
        It was
        > the subsequent diversion of the discussion that I found off-topic for my
        > understanding and application of XP. I'm sure there are groups for
        > discussing the nature of language and the nuances of word meanings.
        > Sincerely yours,
        >
        > Kent Beck
        > Three Rivers Institute
        >
        Communication is a rather important facet of XP in my understanding.
        Language and the meaning of words being quite important in human
        communication, I don't see a disruption. A bit of a drift certainly,
        when you get to debating prescription versus description, but is it
        really a major problem?

        Further, much of the discussion ensued from disagreements over the
        meaning of the word "refactoring". I think the usage of that word
        specifically is very much on-topic, and have enjoyed watching the
        discussion. I plan to contribute my two cents to that thread, though
        I'm so late joining, it may be somewhat redundant.
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... Don ... I quite agree ... ... ... when we discover disagreements on the use of key terms in our discipline, I think it s a good exercise to dig in and
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
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          On Saturday, October 1, 2005, at 6:41:08 AM, Donald Roby wrote:

          > Communication is a rather important facet of XP in my understanding.
          > Language and the meaning of words being quite important in human
          > communication, I don't see a disruption. A bit of a drift certainly,
          > when you get to debating prescription versus description, but is it
          > really a major problem?

          Don ... I quite agree ...

          > Further, much of the discussion ensued from disagreements over the
          > meaning of the word "refactoring". I think the usage of that word
          > specifically is very much on-topic, and have enjoyed watching the
          > discussion. I plan to contribute my two cents to that thread, though
          > I'm so late joining, it may be somewhat redundant.

          ... when we discover disagreements on the use of key terms in our
          discipline, I think it's a good exercise to dig in and figure out
          what each of us is seeing and not seeing.

          For any topic here, some posters may be interested, and some may
          not. My advice to folks who would like to see more material of a
          given kind or style is to post more material of that kind, and to
          participate actively enough to continue to shape the discussion if
          it starts to get "off track" in their opinion.

          Discussions here do sometimes go more deeply into "the whichness of
          the why" than I personally care for, but I would not rule them out
          of bounds: I trust that they'll die on their own. I am inclined to
          moderate discussions that veer too strongly into the big three
          trouble topics, Religion, S*x, or Politics, or that get too
          acrimonious.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Find the simple path to what works and follow it,
          always looking for a simpler path. -- Patrick D. Smith
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