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OT: Re: [XP] Disruptions

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  • Steven Gordon
    I believe the issue of whether TDD intrinsically leads to better designs than just OO and refactoring not driven by unit tests is indeed relevant to XP. It is
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 28, 2005
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      I believe the issue of whether TDD intrinsically leads to better designs
      than just OO and refactoring not driven by unit tests is indeed relevant to
      XP. It is an issue that a fence-straddling alpha programmer might raise.
      Examining the issue has reminded me about the communication value of the
      tests themselves.
      How the discussion evolved from the initial few postings, including
      Alistair's part in the escalation of rhetoric, was the source of disruption
      from my point of view.
      Steven Gordon

      On 9/28/05, Kent Beck <kentb@...> wrote:
      >
      > I've noticed that the recent discussion of the nature of language is not
      > the
      > first time Alistair Cockburn has dropped in to this list, poked around
      > until
      > a heated but irrelevant (to XP) argument started, then disappeared.
      >
      > Kent Beck
      > Three Rivers Institute
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kent Beck
      Steve, I agree. I didn t intend to imply that the original discussion was not valuable. It reminded me that design decisions are made while writing tests as
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
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        Steve,

        I agree. I didn't intend to imply that the original discussion was not
        valuable. It reminded me that design decisions are made while writing tests
        as well as refactoring, so while test-after+refactoring might result in
        flexible code it is a different beast than test-before+refactoring. It was
        the subsequent diversion of the discussion that I found off-topic for my
        understanding and application of XP. I'm sure there are groups for
        discussing the nature of language and the nuances of word meanings.
        Sincerely yours,

        Kent Beck
        Three Rivers Institute

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven Gordon
        > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:43 PM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: OT: Re: [XP] Disruptions
        >
        > I believe the issue of whether TDD intrinsically leads to
        > better designs
        > than just OO and refactoring not driven by unit tests is
        > indeed relevant to
        > XP. It is an issue that a fence-straddling alpha programmer
        > might raise.
        > Examining the issue has reminded me about the communication
        > value of the
        > tests themselves.
        > How the discussion evolved from the initial few postings, including
        > Alistair's part in the escalation of rhetoric, was the source
        > of disruption
        > from my point of view.
        > Steven Gordon
        >
        > On 9/28/05, Kent Beck <kentb@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I've noticed that the recent discussion of the nature of
        > language is not
        > > the
        > > first time Alistair Cockburn has dropped in to this list,
        > poked around
        > > until
        > > a heated but irrelevant (to XP) argument started, then disappeared.
        > >
        > > Kent Beck
        > > Three Rivers Institute
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
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      • Donald Roby
        ... writing tests ... It was ... Communication is a rather important facet of XP in my understanding. Language and the meaning of words being quite important
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
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          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kent Beck" <kentb@e...> wrote:
          > Steve,
          >
          > I agree. I didn't intend to imply that the original discussion was not
          > valuable. It reminded me that design decisions are made while
          writing tests
          > as well as refactoring, so while test-after+refactoring might result in
          > flexible code it is a different beast than test-before+refactoring.
          It was
          > the subsequent diversion of the discussion that I found off-topic for my
          > understanding and application of XP. I'm sure there are groups for
          > discussing the nature of language and the nuances of word meanings.
          > Sincerely yours,
          >
          > Kent Beck
          > Three Rivers Institute
          >
          Communication is a rather important facet of XP in my understanding.
          Language and the meaning of words being quite important in human
          communication, I don't see a disruption. A bit of a drift certainly,
          when you get to debating prescription versus description, but is it
          really a major problem?

          Further, much of the discussion ensued from disagreements over the
          meaning of the word "refactoring". I think the usage of that word
          specifically is very much on-topic, and have enjoyed watching the
          discussion. I plan to contribute my two cents to that thread, though
          I'm so late joining, it may be somewhat redundant.
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... Don ... I quite agree ... ... ... when we discover disagreements on the use of key terms in our discipline, I think it s a good exercise to dig in and
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
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            On Saturday, October 1, 2005, at 6:41:08 AM, Donald Roby wrote:

            > Communication is a rather important facet of XP in my understanding.
            > Language and the meaning of words being quite important in human
            > communication, I don't see a disruption. A bit of a drift certainly,
            > when you get to debating prescription versus description, but is it
            > really a major problem?

            Don ... I quite agree ...

            > Further, much of the discussion ensued from disagreements over the
            > meaning of the word "refactoring". I think the usage of that word
            > specifically is very much on-topic, and have enjoyed watching the
            > discussion. I plan to contribute my two cents to that thread, though
            > I'm so late joining, it may be somewhat redundant.

            ... when we discover disagreements on the use of key terms in our
            discipline, I think it's a good exercise to dig in and figure out
            what each of us is seeing and not seeing.

            For any topic here, some posters may be interested, and some may
            not. My advice to folks who would like to see more material of a
            given kind or style is to post more material of that kind, and to
            participate actively enough to continue to shape the discussion if
            it starts to get "off track" in their opinion.

            Discussions here do sometimes go more deeply into "the whichness of
            the why" than I personally care for, but I would not rule them out
            of bounds: I trust that they'll die on their own. I am inclined to
            moderate discussions that veer too strongly into the big three
            trouble topics, Religion, S*x, or Politics, or that get too
            acrimonious.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Find the simple path to what works and follow it,
            always looking for a simpler path. -- Patrick D. Smith
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