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Gut feeling vs head language

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  • acockburn@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/28/2005 8:02:22 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com writes: Sometimes my heart is wiser than my mind. I can
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 28, 2005
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      In a message dated 8/28/2005 8:02:22 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
      extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Sometimes my heart is wiser than my mind. I can understand
      fear and baggage and can usually overcome them. But sometimes
      something just gives me a bad gut feeling. I've learned that for
      important decisions it's very important to listen to that gut feeling.



      --->

      It has happened on occasion, about once every few projects, that I wake up
      sweating about something and start losing sleep. Probably about 4 - 6 times
      since 1987. At that point I go into work and do just about anything to convince
      whomever to change the approach being taken.

      In hindsight, my selection those 4-6 times was probably correct, and in a
      couple I know it saved us from major heartburn. I've often wondered, as and
      after those things happened, whether I should have been so adamant about the
      changes.

      In the smallest decision loop, I was certain that I was not willing to keep
      losing sleep. In the larger decision loops, I wonder what it was that was
      waking me up - Bad pizza? Deep and profound brain things happening inside my head
      digesting megatons of salient information and rolling them up into one nasty
      nightmare? An aesthetic sense that only found enough traction while I was
      asleep? An overactive imagination that tends to jump at shadows?

      Alistair

      (p.s. I've learned I'm bad enough at interviewing people that if I don't
      like someone, I /pass/ when it comes time to turn in the evaluation unless I
      have very good reasons. [actually, I /pass/ also when I do like someone, unless
      I have very good reasons])


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Thomas Eyde
      Gut feeling is your expert experience at work. True experts never think, they act, because they already know the answer. But when you get the instant solution
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 29, 2005
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        Gut feeling is your expert experience at work. True experts never
        think, they act, because they already know the answer. But when you
        get the instant solution this way, it's hard to explain how you got
        there, which makes the lesser experts to reject the idea.

        So if you're the lone expert and nobody trusts you, you're in for some
        sleepless nights :)

        --
        Thomas


        On 8/29/05, acockburn@... <acockburn@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 8/28/2005 8:02:22 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
        > extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com writes:
        >
        > Sometimes my heart is wiser than my mind. I can understand
        > fear and baggage and can usually overcome them. But sometimes
        > something just gives me a bad gut feeling. I've learned that for
        > important decisions it's very important to listen to that gut feeling.
      • Willem Bogaerts
        I know the gut feeling,but I always knew where to look for the real problems. I always thought when you always follow your heart, you won t regret anything ,
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 29, 2005
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          I know the gut feeling,but I always knew where to look for the real
          problems. I always thought "when you always follow your heart, you won't
          regret anything", and I still do. It is usually my head that starts
          objecting. And with (a) reason. And when I think about the objections of
          my head, my feelings about it can change as well.

          The point that I start to lose sleep is when I am powerless to do
          something about the situation. For instance, I was working at a company
          where medical software was written. I was ordered to write a really
          strange algorithm involving unrelated data. The longer I thought about
          it, the more I was convinced that it was really a way to "generate" data
          without measuring. From the moment I replied that my gut feeling said it
          was wrong, up and including to the point that I could explain what was
          wrong about it, no one from management would listen.
          The point where I was losing sleep is when I informed and explained
          management that it was really a way of committing fraud and the only
          reply was that "fraud" was a very severe word.

          Best regards

          acockburn@... wrote:
          > Sometimes my heart is wiser than my mind. I can understand
          > fear and baggage and can usually overcome them. But sometimes
          > something just gives me a bad gut feeling. I've learned that for
          > important decisions it's very important to listen to that gut feeling.
          >
          >
          >
          > --->
          >
          > It has happened on occasion, about once every few projects, that I wake up
          > sweating about something and start losing sleep. Probably about 4 - 6 times
          > since 1987. At that point I go into work and do just about anything to convince
          > whomever to change the approach being taken.
          >
          > In hindsight, my selection those 4-6 times was probably correct, and in a
          > couple I know it saved us from major heartburn. I've often wondered, as and
          > after those things happened, whether I should have been so adamant about the
          > changes.
          >
          > In the smallest decision loop, I was certain that I was not willing to keep
          > losing sleep. In the larger decision loops, I wonder what it was that was
          > waking me up - Bad pizza? Deep and profound brain things happening inside my head
          > digesting megatons of salient information and rolling them up into one nasty
          > nightmare? An aesthetic sense that only found enough traction while I was
          > asleep? An overactive imagination that tends to jump at shadows?
          >
          > Alistair
          >
          > (p.s. I've learned I'm bad enough at interviewing people that if I don't
          > like someone, I /pass/ when it comes time to turn in the evaluation unless I
          > have very good reasons. [actually, I /pass/ also when I do like someone, unless
          > I have very good reasons])
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Victor
          ... There are levels of expertise. A higher level knows both the solution and its explanation. An even higher level knows how to convey the explanation in a
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 29, 2005
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            > Gut feeling is your expert experience at work. True experts never
            > think, they act, because they already know the answer. But when you
            > get the instant solution this way, it's hard to explain how you got
            > there, which makes the lesser experts to reject the idea.

            There are levels of expertise. A higher level knows both the solution and
            its explanation. An even higher level knows how to convey the explanation
            in a way that seems obvious. These are the truly good teachers and leaders.

            Victor

            ===========================================

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Thomas Eyde" <thomas.eyde@...>
            To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 7:47 AM
            Subject: Re: [XP] Gut feeling vs head language


            > Gut feeling is your expert experience at work. True experts never
            > think, they act, because they already know the answer. But when you
            > get the instant solution this way, it's hard to explain how you got
            > there, which makes the lesser experts to reject the idea.
            >
            > So if you're the lone expert and nobody trusts you, you're in for some
            > sleepless nights :)
            >
            > --
            > Thomas
            >
            >
            > On 8/29/05, acockburn@... <acockburn@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > In a message dated 8/28/2005 8:02:22 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
            > > extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com writes:
            > >
            > > Sometimes my heart is wiser than my mind. I can understand
            > > fear and baggage and can usually overcome them. But sometimes
            > > something just gives me a bad gut feeling. I've learned that for
            > > important decisions it's very important to listen to that gut feeling.
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • aacockburn
            Ouch. I ve been fortunate never to be in that situation. In my first case, it was an architecture that our pre-PhD candidate wanted to use for his dissertation
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 29, 2005
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              Ouch. I've been fortunate never to be in that situation.

              In my first case, it was an architecture that our pre-PhD candidate
              wanted to use for his dissertation basis, as the core architecture
              for our research project. It scared the bejeebers out of me, but at
              that time (and possibly even today) I couldn't articulate why it was
              wrong. I just smelled trouble all over the place and couldn't sleep
              at night. In the end I pretty much had to just trump him and say,
              Please Don't do That on Our Project. (The earlier design he had
              proposed was nice and simple, and worked out great exactly as
              expected --- he just couldn't use it for his dissertation basis).

              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Willem Bogaerts <w-p@d...>
              wrote:
              > I know the gut feeling,but I always knew where to look for the real
              > problems. I always thought "when you always follow your heart, you
              won't
              > regret anything", and I still do. It is usually my head that starts
              > objecting. And with (a) reason. And when I think about the
              objections of
              > my head, my feelings about it can change as well.
              >
              > The point that I start to lose sleep is when I am powerless to do
              > something about the situation. For instance, I was working at a
              company
              > where medical software was written. I was ordered to write a really
              > strange algorithm involving unrelated data. The longer I thought
              about
              > it, the more I was convinced that it was really a way to "generate"
              data
              > without measuring. From the moment I replied that my gut feeling
              said it
              > was wrong, up and including to the point that I could explain what
              was
              > wrong about it, no one from management would listen.
              > The point where I was losing sleep is when I informed and explained
              > management that it was really a way of committing fraud and the
              only
              > reply was that "fraud" was a very severe word.
              >
              > Best regards
              >
              > acockburn@a... wrote:
              > > Sometimes my heart is wiser than my mind. I can understand
              > > fear and baggage and can usually overcome them. But sometimes
              > > something just gives me a bad gut feeling. I've learned that for
              > > important decisions it's very important to listen to that gut
              feeling.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --->
              > >
              > > It has happened on occasion, about once every few projects, that
              I wake up
              > > sweating about something and start losing sleep. Probably about
              4 - 6 times
              > > since 1987. At that point I go into work and do just about
              anything to convince
              > > whomever to change the approach being taken.
              > >
              > > In hindsight, my selection those 4-6 times was probably correct,
              and in a
              > > couple I know it saved us from major heartburn. I've often
              wondered, as and
              > > after those things happened, whether I should have been so
              adamant about the
              > > changes.
              > >
              > > In the smallest decision loop, I was certain that I was not
              willing to keep
              > > losing sleep. In the larger decision loops, I wonder what it was
              that was
              > > waking me up - Bad pizza? Deep and profound brain things
              happening inside my head
              > > digesting megatons of salient information and rolling them up
              into one nasty
              > > nightmare? An aesthetic sense that only found enough traction
              while I was
              > > asleep? An overactive imagination that tends to jump at shadows?
              > >
              > > Alistair
              > >
              > > (p.s. I've learned I'm bad enough at interviewing people that if
              I don't
              > > like someone, I /pass/ when it comes time to turn in the
              evaluation unless I
              > > have very good reasons. [actually, I /pass/ also when I do like
              someone, unless
              > > I have very good reasons])
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@e...
              > >
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-
              unsubscribe@e...
              > >
              > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
            • Kay A. Pentecost
              Hi, Thomas, ... I think it s even more that True Experts recognize the problem. Then they know the pattern they use to solve the pattern. It s frequently
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 29, 2005
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                Hi, Thomas,

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Eyde
                > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 7:48 AM
                > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [XP] Gut feeling vs head language
                >
                > Gut feeling is your expert experience at work. True experts never
                > think, they act, because they already know the answer. But when you
                > get the instant solution this way, it's hard to explain how you got
                > there, which makes the lesser experts to reject the idea.

                I think it's even more that True Experts recognize the "problem." Then they
                know the "pattern" they use to solve the pattern.

                It's frequently the problem that the others don't get.

                >
                > So if you're the lone expert and nobody trusts you, you're in for some
                > sleepless nights :)

                Try explaining the problem first... "The way I see, it, the problem is that
                the frammis is snodgelled. This suggests that the solution may be to
                un-snodgell the frammis."

                Try that and let me know if you sleep better!!

                <grin>

                Kay
              • Tim King
                ... Hi, Alistair. I ve had similar experiences, too. I attribute this to a strong intuition. Some of us have a natural intuition: the ability to learn things
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 29, 2005
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                  aacockburn wrote:
                  > In my first case, it was an architecture that our pre-PhD candidate
                  > wanted to use for his dissertation basis, as the core architecture
                  > for our research project. It scared the bejeebers out of me, but at
                  > that time (and possibly even today) I couldn't articulate why it was
                  > wrong. I just smelled trouble all over the place and couldn't sleep...

                  Hi, Alistair. I've had similar experiences, too. I attribute this to a
                  strong intuition. Some of us have a natural intuition: the ability to
                  learn things intuitively, see the big picture, and make good decisions
                  based on that intuition.

                  But explaining our intuition is a whole 'nother story. In my experience,
                  it takes so much work as to be frequently not worth it. On the other
                  hand, the times I have done so have been extremely rewarding.

                  The BBC documentary /The Human Mind: And How to Make the Most of It/
                  tells one story of a fire chief fighting a fire, who suddenly got a
                  desperate feeling he had to get his men out of the burning building. He
                  couldn't explain why, but the feeling was so strong, he ordered the
                  firefighters out. Then the building explded. Later investigation turned
                  up several subtle signs of impending backdraft, and they reasoned that
                  he must've intuitively, with all his years of experience fighting fires,
                  picked up on these.

                  I've had similar experiences as a software developer. Someone will show
                  me a design, and I can tell in 5 minutes what needs to be done to make
                  it a robust design. But it could take a week to communicate that to the
                  other person. The most useful skills I've learned have been how to
                  shorten that time. Still working on that. ;-)

                  -TimK
                • Thomas Eyde
                  Hi Kay. Sometimes people will simply not understand there is a problem. I have experienced that when I was the more knowledged person on the subject (which,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 29, 2005
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                    Hi Kay.

                    Sometimes people will simply not understand there is a problem. I have
                    experienced that when I was the more knowledged person on the subject
                    (which, btw, was/is ASP.NET). My opponent on the subject had chosen a
                    hopeless GUI library.

                    Hopeless in my opinion, anyway.

                    Any of my attempts was countered by something which boils down to:
                    "Let's just define the application *not* to be used that way. If the
                    users choose to do otherwise, then it's their problem."

                    So what do we do when people just refuse to understand the problem?

                    --
                    Thomas


                    On 8/29/05, Kay A. Pentecost <kayp@...> wrote:
                    > It's frequently the problem that the others don't get.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > So if you're the lone expert and nobody trusts you, you're in for some
                    > > sleepless nights :)
                    >
                    > Try explaining the problem first... "The way I see, it, the problem is that
                    > the frammis is snodgelled. This suggests that the solution may be to
                    > un-snodgell the frammis."
                    >
                    > Try that and let me know if you sleep better!!
                    >
                    > <grin>
                    >
                    > Kay
                  • banshee858
                    ... I m not Kay, but I have a strategy that works for me - move on, walk away, hand responsibility to the other party and do it their way . In situations such
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 29, 2005
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                      >
                      > Any of my attempts was countered by something which boils down to:
                      > "Let's just define the application *not* to be used that way. If the
                      > users choose to do otherwise, then it's their problem."
                      >
                      > So what do we do when people just refuse to understand the problem?
                      >
                      I'm not Kay, but I have a strategy that works for me - move on, walk
                      away, hand responsibility to the other party and do it "their way".
                      In situations such as these, I find I have tried to explain my
                      perspective, looked at the other party's perspective and worked to
                      reach a common agreement only to be stymed in every attempt. At this
                      point I have done everything a responsible person could do and the
                      other party has accepted responsiblity for the outcome - they may not
                      have verbally said "I accept responsiblity for this outcome", but
                      their actions are clear - butt out and do it my way. I just let the
                      "problem" be someone else's problem.

                      Is this courageous? Nope. Is it an XP way to solve the problem?
                      Nope. However, I do not want to accept responsiblity when other
                      parties do not wish to cooperate.

                      Carlton
                    • Thomas Eyde
                      Hi Carlton. Sounds exactly like my story.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 29, 2005
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                        Hi Carlton. Sounds exactly like my story.

                        On 8/30/05, banshee858 <cnett858@...> wrote:
                        > I'm not Kay, but I have a strategy that works for me - move on, walk
                        > away, hand responsibility to the other party and do it "their way".
                        > In situations such as these, I find I have tried to explain my
                        > perspective, looked at the other party's perspective and worked to
                        > reach a common agreement only to be stymed in every attempt. At this
                        > point I have done everything a responsible person could do and the
                        > other party has accepted responsiblity for the outcome - they may not
                        > have verbally said "I accept responsiblity for this outcome", but
                        > their actions are clear - butt out and do it my way. I just let the
                        > "problem" be someone else's problem.
                        >
                        > Is this courageous? Nope. Is it an XP way to solve the problem?
                        > Nope. However, I do not want to accept responsiblity when other
                        > parties do not wish to cooperate.
                        >
                        > Carlton
                      • Kay A. Pentecost
                        Hi, Thomas!! ... And you were probably right, since you had more knowledge. ... I don t believe that people refuse to understand, but I certainly have seen
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 31, 2005
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                          Hi, Thomas!!

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Eyde
                          > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 5:41 PM
                          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [XP] Gut feeling vs head language
                          >
                          > Hi Kay.
                          >
                          > Sometimes people will simply not understand there is a problem. I have
                          > experienced that when I was the more knowledged person on the subject
                          > (which, btw, was/is ASP.NET). My opponent on the subject had chosen a
                          > hopeless GUI library.
                          >
                          > Hopeless in my opinion, anyway.

                          And you were probably right, since you had more knowledge.

                          >
                          > Any of my attempts was countered by something which boils down to:
                          > "Let's just define the application *not* to be used that way. If the
                          > users choose to do otherwise, then it's their problem."
                          >
                          > So what do we do when people just refuse to understand the problem?

                          I don't believe that people "refuse" to understand, but I certainly have
                          seen people refuse to try things. I believe that people may use "I don't
                          understand" as an excuse to do things the way they are comfortable with,
                          even when that doesn't produce the most desirable outcome. And people
                          *can* refuse to consider information that would let them understand.

                          Now, whether that's true or not, let's look at what happens when *you*
                          believe someone is "refusing" to understand. I suspect if someone doesn't
                          understand something, you try to explain, illustrate, show them, right? You
                          could show them the problems with the GUI library, and show them how another
                          library would work better, right?

                          But, if you tell yourself they are *refusing* to understand, it doesn't make
                          much sense to try, does it?

                          So back to your question... if you thought they were "not understanding,"
                          what would you do to help them understand?

                          If you thought they were stonewalling doing it your way, what can you do?
                          It will be different from what you would do if you thought they didn't
                          understand, and it will be different from what you would do if they only
                          knew one library, and wanted to use that because they were afraid of not
                          being able to learn a new one.

                          Now, if you stop thinking about them "refusing to *understand*" and start
                          thinking of some other reason you aren't getting through to them, what do
                          you think might be done in the case you describe?

                          I've run across this problem myself, of course. I don't think I've
                          *recently* felt someone was trying not to understand, but I've definitly
                          been stonewalled.

                          I try to say, "what can I try to get cooperation"?

                          Kay Pentecost




                          >
                          > --
                          > Thomas
                          >
                          >
                          > On 8/29/05, Kay A. Pentecost <kayp@...> wrote:
                          > > It's frequently the problem that the others don't get.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > So if you're the lone expert and nobody trusts you,
                          > you're in for some
                          > > > sleepless nights :)
                          > >
                          > > Try explaining the problem first... "The way I see, it, the
                          > problem is that
                          > > the frammis is snodgelled. This suggests that the solution
                          > may be to
                          > > un-snodgell the frammis."
                          > >
                          > > Try that and let me know if you sleep better!!
                          > >
                          > > <grin>
                          > >
                          > > Kay
                          >
                          >
                          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                          >
                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                          >
                          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Thomas Eyde
                          I think stonewalled is a better description of my experience. So gutfeeling and stonewalling is perhaps not the best combination? Besides, the two of us also
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 1, 2005
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                            I think "stonewalled" is a better description of my experience.

                            So gutfeeling and stonewalling is perhaps not the best combination?
                            Besides, the two of us also suffered from a bad personal chemistry
                            mismatch.

                            Cooperation was obtained when we happened to agree or when I decided
                            to do it his way. When there were conflicts, there was no "my way",
                            only his.

                            What I failed to do, which burned me, was to flag in public whose
                            decition we are following, and ask for help in public whenever that
                            decition is flawed. More specificly, I should address him directly in
                            public and say: You decided we should do x, but I can't make it to
                            work. I need you to look into it and make it work.

                            Or, I could refuse to accept the task. If someone want to decide so
                            badly, shouldn't they also accept the responsibility as well?

                            --
                            Thomas

                            On 8/31/05, Kay A. Pentecost <kayp@...> wrote:
                            > I've run across this problem myself, of course. I don't think I've
                            > *recently* felt someone was trying not to understand, but I've definitly
                            > been stonewalled.
                            >
                            > I try to say, "what can I try to get cooperation"?
                            >
                            > Kay Pentecost
                          • Ron Jeffries
                            ... Though I say it who shouldn t, I d recommend only going public as a last resort. If it works, it will quite likely make an enemy. It may seem like the PIQ
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 1, 2005
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                              On Thursday, September 1, 2005, at 3:47:59 AM, Thomas Eyde wrote:

                              > Cooperation was obtained when we happened to agree or when I decided
                              > to do it his way. When there were conflicts, there was no "my way",
                              > only his.

                              > What I failed to do, which burned me, was to flag in public whose
                              > decition we are following, and ask for help in public whenever that
                              > decition is flawed. More specificly, I should address him directly in
                              > public and say: You decided we should do x, but I can't make it to
                              > work. I need you to look into it and make it work.

                              Though I say it who shouldn't, I'd recommend only going public as a
                              last resort. If it works, it will quite likely make an enemy. It may
                              seem like the PIQ is an enemy now, but probably not yet.

                              I'd suggest, first, a sit down, eye to eye, no BS conversation on
                              how things are going on. It could start simply:

                              Jack, when there are two ideas on how to do things, we seem always
                              to have to do yours. Even if yours is better, that's no way for me
                              to learn, and frankly, my ideas aren't always all that bad.

                              We need to find a better way.

                              [FX: Thomas stops, and listens until Jack stops talking.]

                              > Or, I could refuse to accept the task. If someone want to decide so
                              > badly, shouldn't they also accept the responsibility as well?

                              It could work. Maybe something like

                              Jack, I frankly think that's not the best decision. If you insist
                              on going that way, you'll have to go it alone. Or, if you prefer,
                              I'll work with you on it, and we'll both learn something.

                              In passing, I don't know if this is supposed to be an XP shop.
                              Anyway, I am guessing that you and Jack don't pair program a lot. Is
                              the team working in an open workspace?

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              If you want to garden, you have to bend down and touch the soil.
                              Gardening is a practice, not an idea.
                              -- Thich Nhat Hanh
                            • Thomas Eyde
                              This is (was) not an XP shop, not even close to be agile. We tried to do iterations, but the manager willingly let the date slip so we could put all promised
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 1, 2005
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                                This is (was) not an XP shop, not even close to be agile. We tried to
                                do iterations, but the manager willingly let the date slip so we could
                                put all promised features in.

                                We don't pair at all. The workspace is open, yes, but doesn't seem to
                                help. We don't work on the same tasks, and we don't switch them. So I
                                am the gui expert, some other on BizTalk, yet another on database
                                access and so on.

                                The project is over, my opponent (enemy is such a harsh word) has
                                moved to another city, and I don't think it's likely we'll work
                                together in the near future. I share and ask because I hope to learn
                                what I can do better next time.

                                The issue, really, is how can I open up the other's mind when I see
                                and feel the pain of bad judgements.

                                On 9/1/05, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                > In passing, I don't know if this is supposed to be an XP shop.
                                > Anyway, I am guessing that you and Jack don't pair program a lot. Is
                                > the team working in an open workspace?
                              • Steve Tooke
                                ... I think the only option, really, is honesty. If you aren t on board with a decision you have to question it and try to understand why it was made. This way
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 1, 2005
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                                  On 9/1/05, Thomas Eyde <thomas.eyde@...> wrote:
                                  > The issue, really, is how can I open up the other's mind when I see
                                  > and feel the pain of bad judgements.

                                  I think the only option, really, is honesty. If you aren't on board
                                  with a decision you have to question it and try to understand why it
                                  was made. This way you get to learn what the PIQ was thinking. During
                                  this discussion you can point out where your ideas may be a better
                                  fit, or you may see that the other idea is in fact the better option,
                                  or some new plan may hit one of you. The best thing is that you should
                                  both learn something.
                                • Cory Foy
                                  ... I think there are two schools to this. I truly believe there is a camp where people want to refuse to believe there is a problem. However, I think the
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                    Thomas Eyde wrote:
                                    > Sometimes people will simply not understand there is a problem. I have
                                    > experienced that when I was the more knowledged person on the subject
                                    > (which, btw, was/is ASP.NET). My opponent on the subject had chosen a
                                    > hopeless GUI library.
                                    >
                                    > Hopeless in my opinion, anyway.
                                    >
                                    > Any of my attempts was countered by something which boils down to:
                                    > "Let's just define the application *not* to be used that way. If the
                                    > users choose to do otherwise, then it's their problem."
                                    >
                                    > So what do we do when people just refuse to understand the problem?

                                    I think there are two schools to this. I truly believe there is a camp
                                    where people want to refuse to believe there is a problem. However, I
                                    think the second camp might be a little more likely. This is the camp
                                    that doesn't know enough to know they don't know. I've mentioned the
                                    paper on here once or twice before, but the basic concept is that
                                    participants in a study proved over and over that they didn't always
                                    possess the knowledge to recognize how bad they were.

                                    In those cases, the resistance may be from them not wanting to admit
                                    that they don't know. I've certainly been guilty of that in my past. The
                                    only thing that can help in that situation is training, which if they
                                    pretend like they don't need, can lead to a bad situation.

                                    Have you seen situations like I am referring to?

                                    Cory
                                  • Thomas Eyde
                                    The only thing I can think of right now, is rejecting the idea of TDD. Except from that, I think I have been blessed with open minded coworkers. The story
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                      The only thing I can think of right now, is rejecting the idea of TDD.
                                      Except from that, I think I have been blessed with open minded
                                      coworkers.

                                      The story about the GUI library is a totally different one. This guy
                                      is good at what he does, but wait...

                                      I think you hit the nail!

                                      In retrospect I think the problem is more that *he* refuse to
                                      acknowledge he lack information or knowledge. Other people have told
                                      me this person is over confident in his own expertise.

                                      I guess because he is good at most thing which he does, makes him
                                      think he is good at everything he does. I wish I had this insight 9
                                      moths ago.

                                      --
                                      Thomas

                                      On 9/26/05, Cory Foy <usergroup@...> wrote:
                                      > I think there are two schools to this. I truly believe there is a camp
                                      > where people want to refuse to believe there is a problem. However, I
                                      > think the second camp might be a little more likely. This is the camp
                                      > that doesn't know enough to know they don't know.
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