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Re: [XP] Extreme Programming Refactored book (Danger of XP in fact)

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Hi Curtis, ... Well, I try always to assume that people are trying to be helpful (to someone). (I d appreciate it if more people did that, especially to me,
    Message 1 of 264 , May 1 5:28 PM
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      Hi Curtis,

      On Saturday, April 30, 2005, at 11:19:51 AM, Curtis Cooley wrote:

      > Ron,

      > Any insight into why anyone would even want to write these kinds of
      > books? I've taken to calling them 'mudslinging' because they remind me
      > of the politician who can't convince the constuents to vote for him
      > based on his qualities, so he resorts to bashing the other side.

      Well, I try always to assume that people are trying to be helpful
      (to someone). (I'd appreciate it if more people did that, especially
      to me, but that's something for another day.)

      So I imagine that they must have honestly thought that XP was
      dangerous. What disturbs me is that they got it so very wrong,
      especially since I offered more than once to coach them behind the
      scenes to be sure they got what XP is (at least as I understand it)
      right, so they could criticize what we really teach rather than
      stuff they made up. They refused. Oh well.

      > Perhaps I've missed them, but I've never seen "Questioning RUP",
      > "Waterfall Refactored", or "Why Code and Fix Sucks." Which is why I
      > don't understand the motivation for the books you've mentioned. Do
      > you?

      Well, there's not much money in a book. There might be come business
      come from it, or one might think that there is. But mostly I figure
      people who write a book have something to say that they think is
      worth hearing.

      In this case, there are things worth hearing in the book. The
      problem is that they are mixed in with things that, in my opinion,
      are not.

      > I have read "How to Fail With RUP," and I learned a great deal about
      > it and actually gained some respect for how it fits into the software
      > development picture. Of course, despite the title, it is actually a
      > paper FOR RUP.

      Yes, and a good one.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare,
      it is because we do not dare that they are difficult. --Seneca
    • David Roberts
      Ken, So these audience members may not be customers but they give you requirements. At my work we have this issue. We call a small group of people who do
      Message 264 of 264 , Jun 16, 2005
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        Ken,

        So these audience members may not be customers but they give you
        requirements.

        At my work we have this issue. We call a small group of people who do
        research, travel, market and try to get at real customers, "Proxy
        Customers". They write the use cases you we're asking about.

        Not all movies are based on books (well known requirements); some are
        based partially on invention and were developed with "story boards". As
        Shane mentioned, "The Incredibles", which I think is a great example of
        new product development with heavy invention and a lot of scenario
        writing. Obviously we would prefer not inventing if we can.

        If you think movies aren't software (or at least a relatable metaphor),
        what about video games, DVD, multimedia, etc...?

        " but in product
        development, which movie making kind of is "

        Believe me, it is.

        David Roberts
        InnovaSystems Intl
        (619) 955-5864


        -----Original Message-----
        From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
        Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:51 PM
        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [XP] Re: XP weaknesses: Stories vs Use Cases

        On Thursday, June 16, 2005, at 1:26:41 PM, David Roberts wrote:

        > If you had no real customer, how would you do "requirements"?

        > I'm thinking about movies where we have an audience, rather than a
        > customer.

        Well, movies aren't software.

        However, "Customer" is a role in XP. It's good to have it filled, at
        least in part, by real users (audience members), but in product
        development, which movie making kind of is, it's a role often filled
        by a marketing person, product manager, or the like. I don't know
        who that would be in the movies, maybe the director?

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        If you're not throwing some gravel once in a while,
        you're not using the whole road.



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