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Re: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement , language and XP)

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  • Randy MacDonald
    ... Last time someone gave me that kind of answer, I proposed. Later... ... BSc(Math) UNBF 83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it s done.. Natural Born
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
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      > Yes. Absolutely.

      Last time someone gave me that kind of answer, I proposed.

      Later...
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------
      |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
      |\\| randymacdo@... | even if you want to.
      BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
      Natural Born APL'er |
      ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Kay Pentecost" <tranzpupy@...>
      To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:49 PM
      Subject: RE: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement ,
      language and XP)


      >
      > Hi, Randy!!
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Randy MacDonald [mailto:randymacdo@...]
      > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:03 PM
      > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot]
      > > Measurement , language and XP)
      > >
      > >
      > > Which raises a question:
      > >
      > > Is "electron" a noun or a verb?
      >
      > Yes. Absolutely.
      >
      >
      > >Heisenberg tells me the
      > > wheelbarrow test
      > > doesn't necessarily work.
      >
      > yes, because sometimes you can't find the electron, and sometimes you
      can't
      > find the wheelbarrow.
      >
      > Kay
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
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      >
      >
    • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
      From: Randy MacDonald To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
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        From: "Randy MacDonald"
        <randymacdo.at.rogers.com@...>
        To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
        <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
        Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:02 AM
        Subject: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement ,
        language and XP)


        >
        > Which raises a question:
        >
        > Is "electron" a noun or a verb?

        It's a physical phenomenon, so it's a noun.


        > Heisenberg tells me the wheelbarrow test
        > doesn't necessarily work.

        Of course it does - if you define the term
        "wheelbarrow" to mean "magnetic confinement bottle."
        You don't have to say _where_ in the bottle it's at,
        just that it's definitely in there somewhere.

        John Roth

        >
        > Later...
        > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
        > |\\| randymacdo@... | even if you want to.
        > BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
        > Natural Born APL'er | demo website: http://24.43.158.135/
        > ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "jhrothjr" <yahoogroups@...>
        > To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:50 AM
        > Subject: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement , language and XP
        >
        >
        >>
        >>
        >> We've just been going through a spate of discussion between a
        >> viewpoint that says "anything is measureable", and one that says that
        >> some things are not measureable to any useful precision.
        >>
        >> I'd like to offer a useful distinction that Kay reminded me of. That's
        >> the difference between a noun and a verb, or more precisely, between a
        >> noun and a nominalization. The term 'nominalization' is linguist-speak
        >> for a verb that is masquarading as a noun.
        >>
        >> The reason this is important is that the entire concept of measurement
        >> belongs to the world of nouns - that is, things that exist in physical
        >> reality. To measure a verb, we have to poke around the edges, find
        >> some related nouns, and measure them.
        >>
        >> The wheelbarrow test Kay mentioned is something that's discussed in
        >> NLP (Neurolinguistic programming, not natural language processing) as
        >> a simple test for whether something is a noun or a verb. It might have
        >> come from linguistics originally, I don't know.
        >>
        >> You can, for example, put a team room in a sufficiently large
        >> wheelbarrow. You cannot put a team that is practicing osmotic
        >> communication in the wheelbarrow: the people will fit, but the
        >> essential gist of the concept - their manner of communication - will not.
        >>
        >> You can put a workstation set up for pair programming in a
        >> wheelbarrow. You cannot put pair programming in one - it's a
        >> process, not an object.
        >>
        >> If I say: "show me your requirements process," and I see a number of
        >> people sitting in cubicles busily creating large Word dccuments, is
        >> this XP? Well, probably not. If on the other hand I see a group of
        >> people in a room, index cards with stuff written on them scattered on
        >> a table, and talking to each other. Is this XP? Well, maybe. For one
        >> thing, I don't know that they're disucssing project requirements! For
        >> another, it could as well be Crystal Clear, Scrum or another process.
        >> At least it's looking better than the first example!
        >>
        >> XP is not an object. It is a process that is composed of other
        >> processes. If someone asks: "What is this _thing_ called XP?" the only
        >> legitimate answer is: "There is no such _thing_ as XP." It is a
        >> process, not a thing. You can do XP, you cannot have an XP.
        >>
        >> Nominalizations exist because they serve as a useful shorthand for
        >> when we want to talk about processes, but like any metaphor, you can
        >> get into real conceptual trouble if you carry them too far.
        >>
        >> We can look at XP as a collection of processes (practices) or we can
        >> look at it as a set of criteria for selecting processes (the values).
        >> In the latter sense, we can ask about the feedback loops inherent in
        >> each process, we can ask about what kind of communication each process
        >> needs, and how variations in communication style will impact the process.
        >>
        >> I could go on, but this is already long enough, and I feel that I'm
        >> rambling.
        >>
        >> John Roth
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >>
        >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >>
        >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Randy MacDonald
        But it s a noun because I say it is a noun, isn t totally satisfying. There does seem to be something in the concept of to electron, i.e. generate the
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
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          But "it's a noun because I say it is a noun," isn't totally satisfying.

          There does seem to be something in the concept of "to electron," i.e.
          generate the electric field an
          electron would.

          Not satisfying either is " a wheelbarrow is whatever I say it is." (Ignore
          the possibility of quantum tunneling putting the electron (or electron'ing)
          outside the "wheelbarrow...")

          Later...
          -----------------------------------------------------------------------
          |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
          |\\| randymacdo@... | even if you want to.
          BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
          Natural Born APL'er
          ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <yahoogroups@...>
          To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:19 PM
          Subject: Re: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement ,
          language and XP)


          >
          > From: "Randy MacDonald"
          > <randymacdo.at.rogers.com@...>
          > To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
          > <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
          > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:02 AM
          > Subject: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement ,
          > language and XP)
          >
          >
          > >
          > > Which raises a question:
          > >
          > > Is "electron" a noun or a verb?
          >
          > It's a physical phenomenon, so it's a noun.
          >
          >
          > > Heisenberg tells me the wheelbarrow test
          > > doesn't necessarily work.
          >
          > Of course it does - if you define the term
          > "wheelbarrow" to mean "magnetic confinement bottle."
          > You don't have to say _where_ in the bottle it's at,
          > just that it's definitely in there somewhere.
          >
          > John Roth
          >
          > >
          > > Later...
          > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
          > > |\\| randymacdo@... | even if you want to.
          > > BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
          > > Natural Born APL'er | demo website: http://24.43.158.135/
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "jhrothjr" <yahoogroups@...>
          > > To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:50 AM
          > > Subject: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement , language and XP
          > >
          > >
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> We've just been going through a spate of discussion between a
          > >> viewpoint that says "anything is measureable", and one that says that
          > >> some things are not measureable to any useful precision.
          > >>
          > >> I'd like to offer a useful distinction that Kay reminded me of. That's
          > >> the difference between a noun and a verb, or more precisely, between a
          > >> noun and a nominalization. The term 'nominalization' is linguist-speak
          > >> for a verb that is masquarading as a noun.
          > >>
          > >> The reason this is important is that the entire concept of measurement
          > >> belongs to the world of nouns - that is, things that exist in physical
          > >> reality. To measure a verb, we have to poke around the edges, find
          > >> some related nouns, and measure them.
          > >>
          > >> The wheelbarrow test Kay mentioned is something that's discussed in
          > >> NLP (Neurolinguistic programming, not natural language processing) as
          > >> a simple test for whether something is a noun or a verb. It might have
          > >> come from linguistics originally, I don't know.
          > >>
          > >> You can, for example, put a team room in a sufficiently large
          > >> wheelbarrow. You cannot put a team that is practicing osmotic
          > >> communication in the wheelbarrow: the people will fit, but the
          > >> essential gist of the concept - their manner of communication - will
          not.
          > >>
          > >> You can put a workstation set up for pair programming in a
          > >> wheelbarrow. You cannot put pair programming in one - it's a
          > >> process, not an object.
          > >>
          > >> If I say: "show me your requirements process," and I see a number of
          > >> people sitting in cubicles busily creating large Word dccuments, is
          > >> this XP? Well, probably not. If on the other hand I see a group of
          > >> people in a room, index cards with stuff written on them scattered on
          > >> a table, and talking to each other. Is this XP? Well, maybe. For one
          > >> thing, I don't know that they're disucssing project requirements! For
          > >> another, it could as well be Crystal Clear, Scrum or another process.
          > >> At least it's looking better than the first example!
          > >>
          > >> XP is not an object. It is a process that is composed of other
          > >> processes. If someone asks: "What is this _thing_ called XP?" the only
          > >> legitimate answer is: "There is no such _thing_ as XP." It is a
          > >> process, not a thing. You can do XP, you cannot have an XP.
          > >>
          > >> Nominalizations exist because they serve as a useful shorthand for
          > >> when we want to talk about processes, but like any metaphor, you can
          > >> get into real conceptual trouble if you carry them too far.
          > >>
          > >> We can look at XP as a collection of processes (practices) or we can
          > >> look at it as a set of criteria for selecting processes (the values).
          > >> In the latter sense, we can ask about the feedback loops inherent in
          > >> each process, we can ask about what kind of communication each process
          > >> needs, and how variations in communication style will impact the
          process.
          > >>
          > >> I could go on, but this is already long enough, and I feel that I'm
          > >> rambling.
          > >>
          > >> John Roth
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          > >>
          > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          > >>
          > >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          > >
          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          > >
          > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • PA
          ... Verbs, nouns, the power is in the words themselves :P Lua’s Story of O post-structuralist object oriented system
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
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            On Feb 01, 2005, at 18:02, Randy MacDonald wrote:

            > Is "electron" a noun or a verb?

            Verbs, nouns, the power is in the words themselves :P

            "Lua’s Story of O"
            post-structuralist object oriented system
            http://alt.textdrive.com/lua/19/lua-story-of-o

            Cheers

            --
            PA, Onnay Equitursay
            http://alt.textdrive.com/
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