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[tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement , language and XP)

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  • Randy MacDonald
    Which raises a question: Is electron a noun or a verb? Heisenberg tells me the wheelbarrow test doesn t necessarily work. Later... ... BSc(Math) UNBF 83
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
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      Which raises a question:

      Is "electron" a noun or a verb? Heisenberg tells me the wheelbarrow test
      doesn't necessarily work.

      Later...
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------
      |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
      |\\| randymacdo@... | even if you want to.
      BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
      Natural Born APL'er | demo website: http://24.43.158.135/
      ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "jhrothjr" <yahoogroups@...>
      To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:50 AM
      Subject: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement , language and XP


      >
      >
      > We've just been going through a spate of discussion between a
      > viewpoint that says "anything is measureable", and one that says that
      > some things are not measureable to any useful precision.
      >
      > I'd like to offer a useful distinction that Kay reminded me of. That's
      > the difference between a noun and a verb, or more precisely, between a
      > noun and a nominalization. The term 'nominalization' is linguist-speak
      > for a verb that is masquarading as a noun.
      >
      > The reason this is important is that the entire concept of measurement
      > belongs to the world of nouns - that is, things that exist in physical
      > reality. To measure a verb, we have to poke around the edges, find
      > some related nouns, and measure them.
      >
      > The wheelbarrow test Kay mentioned is something that's discussed in
      > NLP (Neurolinguistic programming, not natural language processing) as
      > a simple test for whether something is a noun or a verb. It might have
      > come from linguistics originally, I don't know.
      >
      > You can, for example, put a team room in a sufficiently large
      > wheelbarrow. You cannot put a team that is practicing osmotic
      > communication in the wheelbarrow: the people will fit, but the
      > essential gist of the concept - their manner of communication - will not.
      >
      > You can put a workstation set up for pair programming in a
      > wheelbarrow. You cannot put pair programming in one - it's a
      > process, not an object.
      >
      > If I say: "show me your requirements process," and I see a number of
      > people sitting in cubicles busily creating large Word dccuments, is
      > this XP? Well, probably not. If on the other hand I see a group of
      > people in a room, index cards with stuff written on them scattered on
      > a table, and talking to each other. Is this XP? Well, maybe. For one
      > thing, I don't know that they're disucssing project requirements! For
      > another, it could as well be Crystal Clear, Scrum or another process.
      > At least it's looking better than the first example!
      >
      > XP is not an object. It is a process that is composed of other
      > processes. If someone asks: "What is this _thing_ called XP?" the only
      > legitimate answer is: "There is no such _thing_ as XP." It is a
      > process, not a thing. You can do XP, you cannot have an XP.
      >
      > Nominalizations exist because they serve as a useful shorthand for
      > when we want to talk about processes, but like any metaphor, you can
      > get into real conceptual trouble if you carry them too far.
      >
      > We can look at XP as a collection of processes (practices) or we can
      > look at it as a set of criteria for selecting processes (the values).
      > In the latter sense, we can ask about the feedback loops inherent in
      > each process, we can ask about what kind of communication each process
      > needs, and how variations in communication style will impact the process.
      >
      > I could go on, but this is already long enough, and I feel that I'm
      > rambling.
      >
      > John Roth
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Kay Pentecost
      Hi, Randy!! ... Yes. Absolutely. ... yes, because sometimes you can t find the electron, and sometimes you can t find the wheelbarrow. Kay
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
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        Hi, Randy!!

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Randy MacDonald [mailto:randymacdo@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:03 PM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot]
        > Measurement , language and XP)
        >
        >
        > Which raises a question:
        >
        > Is "electron" a noun or a verb?

        Yes. Absolutely.


        >Heisenberg tells me the
        > wheelbarrow test
        > doesn't necessarily work.

        yes, because sometimes you can't find the electron, and sometimes you can't
        find the wheelbarrow.

        Kay
      • Randy MacDonald
        ... Last time someone gave me that kind of answer, I proposed. Later... ... BSc(Math) UNBF 83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it s done.. Natural Born
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
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          > Yes. Absolutely.

          Last time someone gave me that kind of answer, I proposed.

          Later...
          -----------------------------------------------------------------------
          |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
          |\\| randymacdo@... | even if you want to.
          BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
          Natural Born APL'er |
          ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Kay Pentecost" <tranzpupy@...>
          To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:49 PM
          Subject: RE: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement ,
          language and XP)


          >
          > Hi, Randy!!
          >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Randy MacDonald [mailto:randymacdo@...]
          > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:03 PM
          > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot]
          > > Measurement , language and XP)
          > >
          > >
          > > Which raises a question:
          > >
          > > Is "electron" a noun or a verb?
          >
          > Yes. Absolutely.
          >
          >
          > >Heisenberg tells me the
          > > wheelbarrow test
          > > doesn't necessarily work.
          >
          > yes, because sometimes you can't find the electron, and sometimes you
          can't
          > find the wheelbarrow.
          >
          > Kay
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
          From: Randy MacDonald To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            From: "Randy MacDonald"
            <randymacdo.at.rogers.com@...>
            To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
            <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
            Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:02 AM
            Subject: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement ,
            language and XP)


            >
            > Which raises a question:
            >
            > Is "electron" a noun or a verb?

            It's a physical phenomenon, so it's a noun.


            > Heisenberg tells me the wheelbarrow test
            > doesn't necessarily work.

            Of course it does - if you define the term
            "wheelbarrow" to mean "magnetic confinement bottle."
            You don't have to say _where_ in the bottle it's at,
            just that it's definitely in there somewhere.

            John Roth

            >
            > Later...
            > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
            > |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
            > |\\| randymacdo@... | even if you want to.
            > BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
            > Natural Born APL'er | demo website: http://24.43.158.135/
            > ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "jhrothjr" <yahoogroups@...>
            > To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:50 AM
            > Subject: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement , language and XP
            >
            >
            >>
            >>
            >> We've just been going through a spate of discussion between a
            >> viewpoint that says "anything is measureable", and one that says that
            >> some things are not measureable to any useful precision.
            >>
            >> I'd like to offer a useful distinction that Kay reminded me of. That's
            >> the difference between a noun and a verb, or more precisely, between a
            >> noun and a nominalization. The term 'nominalization' is linguist-speak
            >> for a verb that is masquarading as a noun.
            >>
            >> The reason this is important is that the entire concept of measurement
            >> belongs to the world of nouns - that is, things that exist in physical
            >> reality. To measure a verb, we have to poke around the edges, find
            >> some related nouns, and measure them.
            >>
            >> The wheelbarrow test Kay mentioned is something that's discussed in
            >> NLP (Neurolinguistic programming, not natural language processing) as
            >> a simple test for whether something is a noun or a verb. It might have
            >> come from linguistics originally, I don't know.
            >>
            >> You can, for example, put a team room in a sufficiently large
            >> wheelbarrow. You cannot put a team that is practicing osmotic
            >> communication in the wheelbarrow: the people will fit, but the
            >> essential gist of the concept - their manner of communication - will not.
            >>
            >> You can put a workstation set up for pair programming in a
            >> wheelbarrow. You cannot put pair programming in one - it's a
            >> process, not an object.
            >>
            >> If I say: "show me your requirements process," and I see a number of
            >> people sitting in cubicles busily creating large Word dccuments, is
            >> this XP? Well, probably not. If on the other hand I see a group of
            >> people in a room, index cards with stuff written on them scattered on
            >> a table, and talking to each other. Is this XP? Well, maybe. For one
            >> thing, I don't know that they're disucssing project requirements! For
            >> another, it could as well be Crystal Clear, Scrum or another process.
            >> At least it's looking better than the first example!
            >>
            >> XP is not an object. It is a process that is composed of other
            >> processes. If someone asks: "What is this _thing_ called XP?" the only
            >> legitimate answer is: "There is no such _thing_ as XP." It is a
            >> process, not a thing. You can do XP, you cannot have an XP.
            >>
            >> Nominalizations exist because they serve as a useful shorthand for
            >> when we want to talk about processes, but like any metaphor, you can
            >> get into real conceptual trouble if you carry them too far.
            >>
            >> We can look at XP as a collection of processes (practices) or we can
            >> look at it as a set of criteria for selecting processes (the values).
            >> In the latter sense, we can ask about the feedback loops inherent in
            >> each process, we can ask about what kind of communication each process
            >> needs, and how variations in communication style will impact the process.
            >>
            >> I could go on, but this is already long enough, and I feel that I'm
            >> rambling.
            >>
            >> John Roth
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >>
            >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >>
            >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Randy MacDonald
            But it s a noun because I say it is a noun, isn t totally satisfying. There does seem to be something in the concept of to electron, i.e. generate the
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
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              But "it's a noun because I say it is a noun," isn't totally satisfying.

              There does seem to be something in the concept of "to electron," i.e.
              generate the electric field an
              electron would.

              Not satisfying either is " a wheelbarrow is whatever I say it is." (Ignore
              the possibility of quantum tunneling putting the electron (or electron'ing)
              outside the "wheelbarrow...")

              Later...
              -----------------------------------------------------------------------
              |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
              |\\| randymacdo@... | even if you want to.
              BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
              Natural Born APL'er
              ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <yahoogroups@...>
              To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement ,
              language and XP)


              >
              > From: "Randy MacDonald"
              > <randymacdo.at.rogers.com@...>
              > To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
              > <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
              > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:02 AM
              > Subject: [tOTally] noun vs.verb (was Re: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement ,
              > language and XP)
              >
              >
              > >
              > > Which raises a question:
              > >
              > > Is "electron" a noun or a verb?
              >
              > It's a physical phenomenon, so it's a noun.
              >
              >
              > > Heisenberg tells me the wheelbarrow test
              > > doesn't necessarily work.
              >
              > Of course it does - if you define the term
              > "wheelbarrow" to mean "magnetic confinement bottle."
              > You don't have to say _where_ in the bottle it's at,
              > just that it's definitely in there somewhere.
              >
              > John Roth
              >
              > >
              > > Later...
              > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
              > > |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
              > > |\\| randymacdo@... | even if you want to.
              > > BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
              > > Natural Born APL'er | demo website: http://24.43.158.135/
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "jhrothjr" <yahoogroups@...>
              > > To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:50 AM
              > > Subject: [XP] [semi ot] Measurement , language and XP
              > >
              > >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> We've just been going through a spate of discussion between a
              > >> viewpoint that says "anything is measureable", and one that says that
              > >> some things are not measureable to any useful precision.
              > >>
              > >> I'd like to offer a useful distinction that Kay reminded me of. That's
              > >> the difference between a noun and a verb, or more precisely, between a
              > >> noun and a nominalization. The term 'nominalization' is linguist-speak
              > >> for a verb that is masquarading as a noun.
              > >>
              > >> The reason this is important is that the entire concept of measurement
              > >> belongs to the world of nouns - that is, things that exist in physical
              > >> reality. To measure a verb, we have to poke around the edges, find
              > >> some related nouns, and measure them.
              > >>
              > >> The wheelbarrow test Kay mentioned is something that's discussed in
              > >> NLP (Neurolinguistic programming, not natural language processing) as
              > >> a simple test for whether something is a noun or a verb. It might have
              > >> come from linguistics originally, I don't know.
              > >>
              > >> You can, for example, put a team room in a sufficiently large
              > >> wheelbarrow. You cannot put a team that is practicing osmotic
              > >> communication in the wheelbarrow: the people will fit, but the
              > >> essential gist of the concept - their manner of communication - will
              not.
              > >>
              > >> You can put a workstation set up for pair programming in a
              > >> wheelbarrow. You cannot put pair programming in one - it's a
              > >> process, not an object.
              > >>
              > >> If I say: "show me your requirements process," and I see a number of
              > >> people sitting in cubicles busily creating large Word dccuments, is
              > >> this XP? Well, probably not. If on the other hand I see a group of
              > >> people in a room, index cards with stuff written on them scattered on
              > >> a table, and talking to each other. Is this XP? Well, maybe. For one
              > >> thing, I don't know that they're disucssing project requirements! For
              > >> another, it could as well be Crystal Clear, Scrum or another process.
              > >> At least it's looking better than the first example!
              > >>
              > >> XP is not an object. It is a process that is composed of other
              > >> processes. If someone asks: "What is this _thing_ called XP?" the only
              > >> legitimate answer is: "There is no such _thing_ as XP." It is a
              > >> process, not a thing. You can do XP, you cannot have an XP.
              > >>
              > >> Nominalizations exist because they serve as a useful shorthand for
              > >> when we want to talk about processes, but like any metaphor, you can
              > >> get into real conceptual trouble if you carry them too far.
              > >>
              > >> We can look at XP as a collection of processes (practices) or we can
              > >> look at it as a set of criteria for selecting processes (the values).
              > >> In the latter sense, we can ask about the feedback loops inherent in
              > >> each process, we can ask about what kind of communication each process
              > >> needs, and how variations in communication style will impact the
              process.
              > >>
              > >> I could go on, but this is already long enough, and I feel that I'm
              > >> rambling.
              > >>
              > >> John Roth
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              > >>
              > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              > >>
              > >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              > >
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              > >
              > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • PA
              ... Verbs, nouns, the power is in the words themselves :P Lua’s Story of O post-structuralist object oriented system
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 1, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                On Feb 01, 2005, at 18:02, Randy MacDonald wrote:

                > Is "electron" a noun or a verb?

                Verbs, nouns, the power is in the words themselves :P

                "Lua’s Story of O"
                post-structuralist object oriented system
                http://alt.textdrive.com/lua/19/lua-story-of-o

                Cheers

                --
                PA, Onnay Equitursay
                http://alt.textdrive.com/
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