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Re: [XP] [Mod] Group Style

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  • Chris Dollin
    ... I get a lot out of your writings here. (And, when I can schedule some reading time, I hope to get more from the C# adventures.) I don t always *agree*, but
    Message 1 of 213 , Feb 1, 2005
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      On Monday 31 January 2005 18:30, Ron Jeffries wrote:
      > On Monday, January 31, 2005, at 10:46:20 AM, Chris Dollin wrote:
      > >> I'm not picking on you, Chris,;
      > >
      > > It would be an honour if you did, Ron.
      >
      > I wish everyone saw it that way. :)

      I get a lot out of your writings here. (And, when I can schedule
      some reading time, I hope to get more from the C# adventures.) I
      don't always *agree*, but even that disagreement sharpens, I hope,
      my own thinking.

      > But seriously, you expressed concern about offense below. None was
      > taken. In any case I was talking about my reaction to vague comments
      > about things like intellectual honesty and defensiveness. I don't
      > like them.
      >
      > My chosen reaction to your posting was that you were "quoting" such
      > things, not saying that the group didn't have them.

      Yes. I could have been clearer. I'll try to watch out for that.

      > >> and there's something very disrespectful about publishing blanket
      > >> notions like "keeping things intellectually respectable",
      > >
      > > Urm. I don't believe that. What I believe is that it would be
      > > disrespectful to attribute intellectual disrespectability to someone
      > > on a whim, or without evidence, or as a stealth attack.
      >
      > We may differ in our reaction to that. When in the middle of a
      > conversation with a few folks, one of the members says something
      > like "I'm trying to keep a modicum of <some good quality> in here,"
      > I take the implication to include "apparently unlike the rest of
      > you." I freely state that that is my reaction. I try never to assume
      > that people's points are whatever I might fear. But I still have the
      > reactions.

      I understand the reaction. I think it would take a more heated context
      for me to have that reaction - I don't read subtlety very well, I think.
      Thanks for unpacking.

      > I'm perfectly happy to be called on my mistakes, in the unliklye
      > event that I ever make one,

      ... Me too ...

      > and think that people should do that. I
      > do think it's possible to say things without imputing error, much
      > less good will, to the other person. Here's a list of examples: the
      > reader can guess which ones I prefer:

      (Snip) Yes. I too would prefer that discussion be polite as well as
      vigorous. But also that it should take more than a single impoliteness
      to start a flamewar. And that one should stamp on impoliteness. I have
      the sneaking feeling that there's a contradiction there somewhere.

      (rest snipped, because I agree with it and because Ron's time is
      probably better employed in a diminishing-echoes posting sequence.
      Mine too, I suppose.)

      --
      Chris "electric hedgehog" Dollin
    • Kent Beck
      Kay, When you say, I m not experiencing that the world is safe for programmers *yet*. it sounds to me like you are expecting the world to change. The
      Message 213 of 213 , Feb 8, 2005
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        Kay,

        When you say, "I'm not experiencing that the world is safe for programmers
        *yet*." it sounds to me like you are expecting the world to change. The
        strategy of expecting or demanding the world to change in order for me to be
        okay doesn't work well for me. I am changing myself to perceive the world as
        safe, in the sense that what is around me doesn't threaten the core of my
        being. I might still get laid off, but my core can remain intact. I find
        this hard work, but rewarding.

        Kent Beck
        Three Rivers Institute

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Kay Pentecost [mailto:tranzpupy@...]
        Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:52 AM
        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [XP] Scalibility issues in XP


        Hi, Kent,

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Kent Beck [mailto:kentb@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 2:19 PM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] Scalibility issues in XP
        >
        >
        > The whole quote was, "Making the world safe for programmers
        > and programmers
        > safe for the world." What I think now is that the world is
        > already safe and
        > what I need is to be able to recognize that and act appropriately.

        I'm glad the world is safe for you.

        I'm not experiencing that the world is safe for programmers yet. Nor are
        many of the other programmers I know and work with.

        I'm doing what I can towards that end, and it seems to be an uphill battle.


        Kay Pentecost




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