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Re: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software Development

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  • Jonas Karlsson
    I just wanted to say a quick thanks to all those who responded to my question about Barry Boehm. It turns out he won t give his talk until end of January /
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
      I just wanted to say a quick thanks to all those who responded to my
      question about Barry Boehm. It turns out he won't give his talk until
      end of January / early February - I'll send out a report afterwards.

      I asked if we could get somebody to talk about XP, and the response
      was "Sure, but we can't pay them (except possibly expenses)". If
      that offer sounds good enough to entice someone to come visit upstate
      NY in winter, let me know :-)

      _jonas
    • Jim Standley
      I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group pretend one thing
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
        I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
        symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
        pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
        have any links?
      • Jim Standley
        I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group pretend one thing
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
          I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
          symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
          pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
          have any links?
        • Dale Emery
          Hi Jim, ... I don t recall that here (though maybe I missed it, or forgot). There was a movie earlier this year called /The Corporation/ Heavily biased but
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
            Hi Jim,

            > I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations
            > showing symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How
            > long can a group pretend one thing while reality is something
            > else? Anybody recall that, have any links?

            I don't recall that here (though maybe I missed it, or forgot).

            There was a movie earlier this year called /The Corporation/
            Heavily biased but interesting. The movie went through five or
            so symptoms of psychosis or neurosis or some other -osis, and
            "showed" that corporations exhibit all of the symptoms.

            Dale

            --
            Dale Emery, Consultant
            Collaborative Leadership for Software People
            Web: http://www.dhemery.com
            Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd

            Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a
            man's character, give him power. --Abraham Lincoln
          • Steven Gordon
            How long did most of western civilization believe the world was flat? ... From: Jim Standley [mailto:jimstandley@adelphia.net] Sent: Thursday, December 02,
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
              How long did most of "western civilization" believe the world was flat?

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jim Standley [mailto:jimstandley@...]
              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:36 PM
              To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software
              Development



              I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
              symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
              pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
              have any links?


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            • jhrothjr
              ... Depends on who you mean by western civilization. The medieval collegia taught that the world was round, and even had a reasonably good value for its
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                > How long did most of "western civilization" believe the world was flat?

                Depends on who you mean by "western civilization."
                The medieval collegia taught that the world was
                round, and even had a reasonably good value for
                its size. That was Columbus' problem: everyone knew,
                correctly as it turns out, that they couldn't
                outfit a ship to go across the Atlantic and get
                to China. Columbus' expedition would have perished
                if they hadn't run into an unknown continent.

                The fable that people thought it was flat was
                invented by Washington Irving. The story was just
                too good to pass up, and the truth that
                Columbus cooked up a bogus set of figures for the
                size of the earth in order to get his expedition
                off was just too depressing.

                John Roth

                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jim Standley [mailto:jimstandley@a...]
                > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:36 PM
                > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software
                > Development
                >
                >
                >
                > I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
                > symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                > pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
                > have any links?
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@e...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@e...
                >
                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
              • jhrothjr
                ... I don t think it was here, but group dynamics is rather strange: groups can believe just about anything as long as it protects the integrity of the group.
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Jim Standley
                  <jimstandley@a...> wrote:
                  > I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
                  > symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                  > pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
                  > have any links?

                  I don't think it was here, but group dynamics
                  is rather strange: groups can believe just
                  about anything as long as it protects the
                  integrity of the group.

                  Part of that is that we don't live in reality:
                  we live in a constructed reality that hopefully
                  bears some relationship to actual reality, but
                  which doesn't have to as long as it's coherent
                  and helps our survival.

                  John Roth
                • Steven Gordon
                  Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center of the universe, or any number of religion-based beliefs like the earth is only several thousand years
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                    Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center of the universe,
                    or any number of religion-based beliefs like the earth is only several
                    thousand years old.

                    In any case, there are surely examples of cases where groups consisting
                    of thousands or even millions of people have resisted scientific evidence
                    against dogma for hundreds if not thousands of years.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: jhrothjr [mailto:yahoogroups@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:21 PM
                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software Development




                    --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                    <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                    > How long did most of "western civilization" believe the world was flat?

                    Depends on who you mean by "western civilization."
                    The medieval collegia taught that the world was
                    round, and even had a reasonably good value for
                    its size. That was Columbus' problem: everyone knew,
                    correctly as it turns out, that they couldn't
                    outfit a ship to go across the Atlantic and get
                    to China. Columbus' expedition would have perished
                    if they hadn't run into an unknown continent.

                    The fable that people thought it was flat was
                    invented by Washington Irving. The story was just
                    too good to pass up, and the truth that
                    Columbus cooked up a bogus set of figures for the
                    size of the earth in order to get his expedition
                    off was just too depressing.

                    John Roth

                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Jim Standley [mailto:jimstandley@a...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:36 PM
                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software
                    > Development
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
                    > symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                    > pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
                    > have any links?
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@e...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@e...
                    >
                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links





                    To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

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                  • Jeff Grigg
                    ... Yes, a very interesting movie. And yes, highly biased. http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1808565671 Psychopath See end of page:
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                      > --- Jim,
                      >> [...] organizations showing symptoms or traits of
                      >> humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                      >> pretend one thing while reality is something else?

                      --- Dale Emery <dale@d...> wrote:
                      > I don't recall that here (though maybe I missed it, or forgot).
                      >
                      > There was a movie earlier this year called /The Corporation/
                      > Heavily biased but interesting. The movie went through five or
                      > so symptoms of psychosis or neurosis or some other -osis, and
                      > "showed" that corporations exhibit all of the symptoms.

                      Yes, a very interesting movie. And yes, highly biased.
                      http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1808565671

                      "Psychopath" See end of page:
                      http://www.thecorporation.com/about/
                    • Jeff Grigg
                      They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I have a close in-law listed on this page:
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                        They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I
                        have a close in-law listed on this page:

                        http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Creation_Research_Society

                        And he's not the only one, among my close relatives. ;->

                        (No, I don't think I inherited it. *I* am a skeptic. ;-)


                        Plus, I'm sure we have some Christians on this list. And the
                        church, particularly the Catholic Church, has a history of resisting
                        scientific knowledge -- fiercely at times.


                        --- Steven Gordon <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                        > Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center
                        > of the universe, or any number of religion-based beliefs
                        > like the earth is only several thousand years old.
                        >
                        > In any case, there are surely examples of cases where
                        > groups consisting of thousands or even millions of
                        > people have resisted scientific evidence against
                        > dogma for hundreds if not thousands of years.
                      • Steven Gordon
                        And what could be a more internally consistent approach to software development than a waterfall process driven by command and control? The problem, of
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                          And what could be a more internally consistent approach to software development
                          than a waterfall process driven by command and control? The problem, of
                          course, is that the internal consistency is based on the false premise that the
                          requirements are stable and can be known at the beginning of the project.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Jeff Grigg [mailto:jeffgrigg@...]
                          Sent: Thu 12/2/2004 9:36 PM
                          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc:
                          Subject: [XP] Re: talking about Agile - and non-science belief systems





                          They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I
                          have a close in-law listed on this page:

                          http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Creation_Research_Society

                          And he's not the only one, among my close relatives. ;->

                          (No, I don't think I inherited it. *I* am a skeptic. ;-)


                          Plus, I'm sure we have some Christians on this list. And the
                          church, particularly the Catholic Church, has a history of resisting
                          scientific knowledge -- fiercely at times.


                          --- Steven Gordon <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                          > Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center
                          > of the universe, or any number of religion-based beliefs
                          > like the earth is only several thousand years old.
                          >
                          > In any case, there are surely examples of cases where
                          > groups consisting of thousands or even millions of
                          > people have resisted scientific evidence against
                          > dogma for hundreds if not thousands of years.





                          To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                          ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                          Yahoo! Groups Links











                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Vizer Tibor
                          Having a mental disorder is an other kind of problem than having scientific evidence and ignoring it. See: doctors wanna kill me, yeah, they are out to get
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                            Having a mental disorder is an other kind of problem than
                            having scientific evidence and ignoring it.

                            See:
                            "doctors wanna kill me, yeah, they are out to get me"
                            vs.
                            "my religion is against heart transplantation"

                            An organisation with mental illness is like a Borg mind with an error inside:
                            maybe everyone knows there is some problem with the 'mind', but all of them is doing his little work correctly.
                            Without huge changes you could hardly heal such a big system.
                            (firing all the management people, outsourcing, whatever, I don't know)

                            Tibor

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Steven Gordon [mailto:sagordon@...]
                            > Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center of
                            > the universe,
                            > or any number of religion-based beliefs like the earth is only several
                            > thousand years old.
                            >
                            > In any case, there are surely examples of cases where groups
                            > consisting
                            > of thousands or even millions of people have resisted
                            > scientific evidence
                            > against dogma for hundreds if not thousands of years.
                            >
                          • Jim Standley
                            Thanks! That s exactly what I was thinking of. I bet I heard a long interview with the authors on NPR.
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                              Thanks! That's exactly what I was thinking of. I bet I heard a long
                              interview with the authors on NPR.

                              Dale Emery wrote:
                              > Hi Jim,
                              >
                              >
                              >>I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations
                              >>showing symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How
                              >>long can a group pretend one thing while reality is something
                              >>else? Anybody recall that, have any links?
                              >
                              >
                              > I don't recall that here (though maybe I missed it, or forgot).
                              >
                              > There was a movie earlier this year called /The Corporation/
                              > Heavily biased but interesting. The movie went through five or
                              > so symptoms of psychosis or neurosis or some other -osis, and
                              > "showed" that corporations exhibit all of the symptoms.
                              >
                              > Dale
                              >
                            • Robert Watkins
                              ... _Internally_ consistent is the right word, to the point where external evidence is either rejected or subverted. ... Actually, not to the extent generally
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                                On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 04:36:42 -0000, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I
                                > have a close in-law listed on this page:

                                _Internally_ consistent is the right word, to the point where external
                                evidence is either rejected or subverted.

                                > Plus, I'm sure we have some Christians on this list. And the
                                > church, particularly the Catholic Church, has a history of resisting
                                > scientific knowledge -- fiercely at times.

                                Actually, not to the extent generally described. Take Galileo, for
                                example: he wasn't really prosecuted for preaching that the Earth
                                orbited the sun. It was more a result of political in-fighting within
                                the Church.

                                The problem generally is that in any organisation, there are
                                open-minded and closed-minded individuals. If you get enough of a
                                percentage of close-minded people, the open-minded tend to leave,
                                excerbating the problem.

                                --
                                "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
                                Robert Watkins http://twasink.net/ robertdw@...
                              • jhrothjr
                                ... It wasn t even that. My understanding is that Galileo went out of his way to piss off the Pope, by writing a document which had a character that spouted
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Watkins <yahoo@t...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 04:36:42 -0000, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@c...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I
                                  > > have a close in-law listed on this page:
                                  >
                                  > _Internally_ consistent is the right word, to the point where external
                                  > evidence is either rejected or subverted.
                                  >
                                  > > Plus, I'm sure we have some Christians on this list. And the
                                  > > church, particularly the Catholic Church, has a history of resisting
                                  > > scientific knowledge -- fiercely at times.
                                  >
                                  > Actually, not to the extent generally described. Take Galileo, for
                                  > example: he wasn't really prosecuted for preaching that the Earth
                                  > orbited the sun. It was more a result of political in-fighting within
                                  > the Church.

                                  It wasn't even that. My understanding is that Galileo
                                  went out of his way to piss off the Pope, by writing
                                  a document which had a character that spouted all of
                                  the Pope's opinions on the subject, and then shredded
                                  them. Who he was talking about was very thinly disguised.

                                  The issue came down to a lot of the Church's theology
                                  being grounded in the neo-Platonist model, and they
                                  had a huge amount of trouble with Copernicus. However,
                                  by the time the controversy came up, _everyone_ was
                                  using Copernicus' calculational methods, and a good
                                  majority of astronomers were convinced he was right.

                                  >
                                  > The problem generally is that in any organisation, there are
                                  > open-minded and closed-minded individuals. If you get enough of a
                                  > percentage of close-minded people, the open-minded tend to leave,
                                  > excerbating the problem.

                                  Yep. That's one aspect of the problem that people
                                  usually don't see. Organizations attract people
                                  that have similar mindsets, and many of them are
                                  not going to change.

                                  John Roth
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
                                  > Robert Watkins http://twasink.net/ robertdw@t...
                                • BenAveling
                                  ... Actually, that can be /useful/ behaviour in that it can build group solidarity by clearly dividing people into insiders who accept some minor violation of
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 12, 2005
                                    Jim Standley wrote:
                                    > How long can a group
                                    > pretend one thing while reality is something else?

                                    Actually, that can be /useful/ behaviour in that it can build group
                                    solidarity by clearly dividing people into insiders who accept some
                                    minor violation of reality and outsiders who don't.

                                    Regards, Ben
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