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158960Re: [XP] Taking it back

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  • Charlie Poole
    Feb 28, 2014
      Hi John,

      On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:02 PM, John Maxwell <jmax@...> wrote:

      On 02/28/2014 12:42:21 AM, Charlie Poole wrote:

      > IMO, it's OK to actively try to get the team to adopt XP, but only
      > _if_you're_on_the_team_. Is that what you mean?
      From a personal point of view, that's what I mean, yes. I am not a
      manager nor a coach; I will never voluntarily be either of those

      Then I see no problem with what you're suggesting. "Pushing" to me
      meant "making people do things from a position of authority." It's
      something I've run into many times when companies are looking
      for a shortcut to agility. It never works - or at least not for long.

      Despite the fact that I will never be speaking as a non-team member, I
      still disagree with your position as I understand it.

      > It's never reasonable to say "this is what you should do." Is that
      > too fine a point? I don't think so I think it actually is _the_
      > point.
      We tell people that they should use high level languages instead of
      machine language or assembler. We tell people that they should use
      source control. We tell people all kinds of things about what the good
      ways to develop software are. Why is XP different?

      Actually, I don't tell people those things. As a coach, I point out the
      benefits and they choose. Some of those choices, like using source
      control are pretty obvious, but it gives the team practice in making
      their own decisions - as opposed to being told or pushed.
      > > And if that's not the position, if it's OK to actively attempt to
      > > get
      > > a
      > > team to adopt XP, than why the heck do all of the guiding lights of
      > > Agile bend over backwards to avoid ever saying so?

      > I'm not familiar with that happening, but it probably depends on whom
      > you are talking about.

      You just did it, right there in the quote before last, beginning with
      "It's never reasonable...".

      I can only imagine that you're deliberately transforming my words into
      something else... Nevertheless...

      I'll try again: in my view it is _never_ OK to tell a team how to do its work.
      This applies whether you're a CEO or anything down to a PM or a coach.

      That doesn't mean that one can't suggest things and make sure that the
      team knows what all the options are. But even the best practices - including
      all of XP - are useless if they are forced on people.

      If you're not a boss, then you can feel more free to "push" as you say
      for certain things. IME, it's usually not effective, however.

      Look, there's a huge difference between telling someone "This is the
      right way to do things." and ramming it down their throat.

      OK... I'd have to say that depends on who you are. Coming from some people,
      "This is the right way..." amounts to an order. Coming from a fellow team
      member, it might be OK although that phrasing is not likely to convince anyone.

      I get that you're worrying about the harmful effects of forcing someone
      to adopt a practice they don't believe in. But I keep seeing people
      refusing to adopt any part of XP, and yet claiming to be Agile. That's
      just factually incorrect, and I don't see what's wrong with saying so,
      out loud, in so many words.

      I don't either, although I would be careful to distinguish between XP and
      Agile, which are obviously different things.

      It's pretty easy to call yourself Agile and lots of people do it. I've been using
      the term "Fake Agile" to describe that which calls itself, but isn't, Agile for a
      number of years. One branch of FA is not doing the practices at all. Another
      branch is doing the ceremony but not really being agile. The latter sometimes
      arises when people are simply given a list of things and told to do them. Both
      forms are equally fake.

      It seems to me that you've had your own experiences with FA and you
      are looking for someone to blame. It's not us. The fact that we don't want
      to rant against it, which you take for surrender, could mean that we've found
      ranting to be an ineffective tactic. How does it work for you?


      PS: You may want to know that Ron, whose post started you on this tack,
      has helped more people to do full-on XP over the years than anyone I know.

      John Maxwell KB3VLL jmax@...

      "And besides, he sings off key in the shower."
      -Leamur, while enumerating the reasons for
      a breakup.

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