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Re: [extremeperl] Declarative Testing

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  • Curtis Poe
    ... Possibly, but it s fair to point out that if a company has an established, working code base, switching to Bivio may not be cost effective (of course, I ve
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 1, 2005
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      On Aug 31, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Rob Nagler wrote:
      > > Given that most are unlikely to use Bivio, perhaps someone can
      > propose
      > > a Test::Declare framework using Perl's standard testing tools?  What
      > > would the syntax be?
      >
      > Talk about NIH. ;-)

      Possibly, but it's fair to point out that if a company has an
      established, working code base, switching to Bivio may not be cost
      effective (of course, I've no idea what Bivio does, either).

      >  I would expect that you would find that any
      > serious attempt at Test::Declarative would run into the same problems
      > that Bivio::Test has: abstractions are difficult to understand.
      > However, the more the merrier. :-)

      Yeah, that's true. Still, it would be an interesting experiment.

      Cheers,
      Ovid
    • Terrence Brannon
      I interviewed with the director of a small team here in Los Angeles yesterday. The guy was part of an Extreme Programming outfit in Arizona. He said that
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 1, 2005
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        I interviewed with the director of a small team here in Los Angeles
        yesterday. The guy was part of an Extreme Programming outfit in
        Arizona. He said that Extreme Programming came from GM and Ford motor
        company where they weren't trying to be first to market.

        He also said that while XP is good in general when you are trying to
        beat everyone to market, it is impractical: they could have been a
        year ahead of everyone but instead were a year behind.

        Any feedback on this?

        --
        Carter's Compass: I know I'm on the right track when,
        by deleting something, I'm adding functionality.
      • Rob Kinyon
        ... Personally, I feel that XP means you re *quicker* to market because you re only implementing those features you re selling right now. In addition, you re
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 1, 2005
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          On 9/1/05, Terrence Brannon <bauhaus@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > I interviewed with the director of a small team here in Los Angeles
          > yesterday. The guy was part of an Extreme Programming outfit in
          > Arizona. He said that Extreme Programming came from GM and Ford motor
          > company where they weren't trying to be first to market.
          >
          > He also said that while XP is good in general when you are trying to
          > beat everyone to market, it is impractical: they could have been a
          > year ahead of everyone but instead were a year behind.
          >
          > Any feedback on this?


          Personally, I feel that XP means you're *quicker* to market because you're
          only implementing those features you're selling right now. In addition,
          you're quicker to market with new features and bugfixes. I'm a little
          confused as to where the person in question got his/her information.

          Rob


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • alex_viggio@comcast.net
          I d doublecheck where this director gets his facts (did he work with Catbert?) and what rigorous development process he sees as faster to market than XP, other
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 1, 2005
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            I'd doublecheck where this director gets his facts (did he work with
            Catbert?) and what rigorous development process he sees as faster to
            market than XP, other than "seat of your pants prototyping with every
            sincere intention to properly implement the v3.0 release."

            See http://www.xprogramming.com/publications/dc9810cs.pdf for a case
            study on the Chrysler project commonly described as the genesis of XP.
            At least his source got the vertical market right :)

            This is posted on Ron Jeffries' site, one of the members of the project
            team and a true Dilbert in a sea of Wally programmers.

            - Alex

            Terrence Brannon wrote:

            >I interviewed with the director of a small team here in Los Angeles
            >yesterday. The guy was part of an Extreme Programming outfit in
            >Arizona. He said that Extreme Programming came from GM and Ford motor
            >company where they weren't trying to be first to market.
            >
            >He also said that while XP is good in general when you are trying to
            >beat everyone to market, it is impractical: they could have been a
            >year ahead of everyone but instead were a year behind.
            >
            >Any feedback on this?
            >
            >
            >
          • Curtis Poe
            ... I d like to see a company that truly uses XP. Most of the time, I see companies adopt little bits and pieces but many of those pieces are tightly coupled
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 1, 2005
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              On Sep 1, 2005, at 8:20 AM, Terrence Brannon wrote:

              > He also said that while XP is good in general when you are trying to
              > beat everyone to market, it is impractical:  they could have been a
              > year ahead of everyone but instead were a year behind.

              I'd like to see a company that truly uses XP. Most of the time, I see
              companies adopt little bits and pieces but many of those pieces are
              tightly coupled with other pieces and adopting them "halfway" only gets
              part of the benefit.

              For example, in iteration planning meetings where programmers are
              picking up story cards, if you don't have a customer-driven process to
              assign priorities and customer feedback on what's already done, you
              wind up guessing what needs to be done and only find out later you've
              guessed wrong. Additionally, with XP, by having customers review the
              process every iteration, you find out *now* what needs to be changed.
              That's a lot less expensive and time-consuming than finding out a few
              months down the road.

              So far on the XP-driven projects I've been on development is much
              faster. I've spent much less time in the "oh crap, we're screwed"
              meetings.

              Cheers,
              Ovid

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Adam Turoff
              ... Sounds like in the absence of hard data, it s pretty easy to fabricate enough annecdotal evidence to back up your chosen point of view. -- Adam
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 3, 2005
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                On 9/1/05, Terrence Brannon <bauhaus@...> wrote:
                > He also said that while XP is good in general when you are trying to
                > beat everyone to market, it is impractical: they could have been a
                > year ahead of everyone but instead were a year behind.
                >
                > Any feedback on this?

                Sounds like in the absence of hard data, it's pretty easy to fabricate
                enough annecdotal evidence to back up your chosen point of view.

                -- Adam
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