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Re: [extremeperl] Re: Better Development Tools for Perl

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  • J Matisse Enzer
    ... That s part of the problem with current tools. I want to see tools that *can* figure out if $o- foo() is my foo, in most cases. ... You guys have a
    Message 1 of 107 , Jun 18, 2005
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      On Jun 18, 2005, at 12:08 PM, Rob Nagler wrote:
      > No. There are a number of reasons why you don't want to do this.
      > Firstly, you can't know that the following is your "foo".
      > $o->foo();

      That's part of the problem with current tools. I want to see tools that
      *can* figure out if $o->foo() is "my" foo, in most cases.

      > Second, our unit and acceptance tests catch these problems. For the
      > most part, our classes have very few entry points.

      You guys have a particular approach that minimizes the problem, which
      is good. Maybe the whole world will adopt your approach, or maybe not

      I'm certainly in favor of unit tests, and consistent coding style, in
      no small part because they make many things easier, just as you are

      > I guess that is where we depart. It is very easy for me to type:
      > perl -dDevel::DProf perf.t
      > It's really just a few keystrokes.

      I think you are actually agreeing that it should be easy to access all
      of the features we are discussing (not just running a profiler, or a
      refactoring action, but all of them).If I'm correcting grasping your
      position it is that it is *already* easy and that you are not motivated
      to make these things any easier. I think *that* is where we might stand
      differently at present.

      Or perhaps were we depart is in the list of things that we feel should
      be easier, and/or in our feelings about Perl's adoption by new
      programmers and new projects - you might be happy with its adoption
      rate and/or feel that the obstacles to Perl's adoption lie elsewhere.

      > I agree with Rob K here. The problem with complex projects is not
      > "keystrokes", but senior engineers. You simply can't do them without
      > senior engineers.

      I agree. People gradually become senior, and expert, and experienced,
      and no tool have replace experience. My position is that better tools
      are, well, better, and even experts benefit from them, in fact they may
      benefit more than novices or intermediate level folks, at least in some

      Tools do not make the job - you can have the best image processing
      software in the world, running on the fastest computer with the most
      memory and the biggest hard disk, yet it behooves one to recall what
      Rembrandt did 700 years ago with burnt wood and paper.

      > Do you have data on this? We don't have a shared note-taking system,
      > and we do a pretty good job imiho.

      My data on this is entirely anecdotal and experiential. That is the
      people I have talked to and the projects I have worked on seem to me to
      have benefited whenever there was some way for the group to have some
      record of decisions, discussions, problems, discoveries etc. I'm
      personally not a big wiki fan, but it works well for some groups.
      mailing lists work for others, whiteboards for many (that's perhaps the
      most common for groups that are physically close)

      Are you certain you have no shared note-taking? I would argue that
      http://www.bivio.biz/f/bOP/html/index.html is an example - the NAME
      entries (and the full perldoc) from each module is in fact a note (it's
      not executable code), it is meta-information that your whole team
      contributes to.

      > Our primary focus is getting
      > along.

      That is great - that is the single most important thing in a team, I
      think the "plays well with others" factor. It is not the only factor,
      but I think if you have that, you can acquire any others.

      > Well, we add new files every day. The last thing I need is for it to
      > show up in a window.

      I think that's a matter of personal preference. I and many other people
      do like having a newly added file show up in a list of files instantly.

      >> I think you have to admit that there are, in fact, expert programmers
      >> who use GUI IDE's, even if you don't.
      > They may use them, but they probably don't enjoy it. :-)

      So you would say that the people who wrote Komodo and EPIC, for
      experts, are not experts? or do not enjoy using those tools? What about
      Eclipse and IntelliJ?

      What is your opinion of Martin Fowler's article "Crossing Refactoring's
      Rubicon" http://www.martinfowler.com/articles/refactoringRubicon.html ?

      >> What I *am* saying is that taken as a
      >> whole, the tools for Perl *are* behind the tools for other languages.
      > This case has yet to be proven.

      Depending on what you mean by "proven" I think I agree with you. What
      would you consider as "proof" ?

      Personally I don't need a scientific proof to be concerned about this
      issue - I am personally going by what I see people and businesses
      doing, and by my own and other programmers experiences. Did you read
      Adam Kennedy's article about PPI?

      >> Let's stipulate for a moment that emacs with your extensions does 90%
      >> of my list, I would then argue that it still needs (and deserves) to
      >> be
      >> made much more accessible
      > If you'd like. However, be careful what you wish for. Most people
      > don't really want a better programming environment. It then removes
      > all impediments to getting the job done. :-)

      I can live with that :-)

      > It won't take you 8 hours. :-) It will take you 8 hours to figure out
      > what the C-c C-r view-to-shortcut does, and why you might need it. :-)

      Indeed, and that's part of where I'm coming from - part of what makes a
      tool "better" can in some cases be how much easier it is to accomplish
      a task, including learning to use the tool (that's not the only
      criteria for "better" of course.) Here's a trivial example: In
      carpentry, a "speed square" is "better" for many things where we used
      to use a "framing square", because in these cases the speed square is
      easier to use - it might even be a bit less precise ion those cases,
      but it's still a "better" tool.

      http://northhaledonschools.com/framingsquare.jpg (24" x 16")

      > It is pointless to have a team of intermediate level programmers,
      > because this likely means: team of inexperienced programmers.

      Of course you also need senior, more experience people. And why
      automatically say that "intermediate" == "inexperienced"?

      Few people are experts, and all experts started as non-experts. I am
      well aware of many of the values of experience and skill, and I hope
      that 20 years from now I have learned even more, I certainly intend to
      keep trying.

      Matisse Enzer <matisse@...>
      http://www.matisse.net/ - http://www.eigenstate.net/
      415-225-6703 (work/cellphone)
      415-401-8325 (home)
    • Siegfried Heintze
      Since there was a helpful discussion some time ago on USB keyboards and mice for pair programming that was not specific to perl, I wanted to solicit the group
      Message 107 of 107 , Feb 13, 2006
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        Since there was a helpful discussion some time ago on USB keyboards and mice
        for pair programming that was not specific to perl, I wanted to solicit the
        group for information on network software (also not specific to perl).

        I just set up openVPN on my openwrt/WRT54G router for pair programming with
        a headset and skype.

        (1) Can any point me to the documentation on sharing desktops on windows? I
        need to create accounts on Win2003 XP Server. When I created an account
        belonging only to the user group, my partner could not log in. He was
        receiving some error message about not being permitted to log in
        interactively. However, when I added the administrator group (reluctantly)
        to his account, he could log in. Is there a tutorial somewhere on the web
        for creating user accounts in windows for use with remote desktop logins on

        (2) How do I share my remote desktop setting with a programming pair

        (3) What about sharing sessions when I'm booted with linux? I think there is
        a vnc program out there, but I don't know how to use it. I'll need to learn
        how to create accounts and share linux desktops with remote VPN users. Is
        there a tutorial on this?

        (4) Are video cams very helpful for pair programming?

        It seems that this kind of knowledge would be very common for pair



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