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Re: [extremeperl] Better Development Tools for Perl

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  • Rob Kinyon
    ... my @params = build_param_list( @foo, @bar, @baz ); $self- foo( @params ); So, your refactoring tool is going to walk the function calls and modify the code
    Message 1 of 107 , Jun 9, 2005
      > > Chris is right in that an IDE would be handy to do things like
      > > renaming or parameter ordering. Except, I'll sometimes build my
      > > parameter list and call it $self->foo( @params ) instead of
      > > $self->foo( $bar, $baz ).
      >
      > Why is that an exception?
      >
      > Chris (and I) are saying it would be helpful if the tool(s) would help
      > with things like renaming and reordering - this is all about wish-list,
      > not what is currently available.
      >
      > I certainly understand why it is sometimes preferable to use an array
      > instead of a series of named variables, and I would want my refactoring
      > tool to catch that.

      my @params = build_param_list( @foo, @bar, @baz );
      $self->foo( @params );

      So, your refactoring tool is going to walk the function calls and
      modify the code appropriately? Or, is it going to do something like:

      $self->foo( @params[1,0,2..$#params] );

      Tha's what I'm trying to get at. The latter is, well ... obfuscated.
      It's valid perl, but invalid Perl.

      > Maybe I am mis-reading your tone of voice - easy to do in email of
      > course and I apologize if I have done so.
      >
      > I keep reading your comments as if they are in a rather stubborn tone
      > of voice, dismissing each possible improvement in tools because they
      > are not perfect or do not handle exactly every situation you can think
      > of, or because they might help a non-wizard more than a wizard.

      My wife just had a baby a few days ago, so I have been replying to
      this thread in stolen 15 minute increments. I haven't had the chance
      to really polish what I'm trying to say.

      > I am hoping that this conversation is helpful to myself and others,
      > especially non-wizards, who want to build medium/large projects and
      > get paid for it.

      This is something I'm going to be really rude in answering.

      People who aren't senior developers have no business building a
      medium/large project and getting paid for it. You're building
      something with the same complexity as a bridge across a large river!
      Why do you think you don't have to have the same level of experience
      as the civil engineer who built the bridge you drive on? This is
      something that is incomprehensible to me.

      If you're not experienced, then learn under someone who is. If you
      don't have that at work, then you need to work on some CPAN projects
      until you have that experience. I can list at least a dozen that would
      kill for another worker bee, including some of mine.

      > My fundamental argument (which it would be great if it's wrong) is that
      > Perl's "market share" is going to erode a lot, and quickly unless the
      > tools for Perl get a lot better.

      The tools have nothing to do with the market share of the language.
      There are tasks in which it is stupid to develop in anything but Perl.
      Just like there are tasks in which it is stupid to develop in anything
      but Java. The solutions to those tasks will gravitate to the correct
      toolset(s). Read Paul Graham's essay called Beating the Averages for
      more on this topic.

      > Here's a real world example - I know of a company (Tsunami Software)
      > that has an application where the back-end is in Perl and the front-end
      > is in Java. They are concerned about whether they should switch the
      > back-end to Java. I believe that if the tools for Perl could do what
      > their Java tools do they would be less likely to ditch Perl.

      They should switch to Java if doing so will allow them to bring
      features to market quicker with less bugs as well as allowing them to
      bring bugfixes to market quicker. If they cannot make that argument,
      then they should stick with Perl. And, the exact same argument needs
      to be made for the front-end.

      We're having a really big disconnect, I think. You're looking at the
      plethora of tools available for Java and saying "Wow, those do some
      neat things and I wish I had them for Perl."

      I'm looking and saying "Wow, I wonder why they need so many tools just
      to do what I do in a text editor." I'm not saying "Java sux0rs, Perl
      r0x0rs" by any means. I'm just trying to figure out why Perl, which
      has been around for about 10 years longer than Java, has never
      developed the tools that Java developers seem to demand. It's not that
      we don't exist. It's not that we haven't been working on tools. It's
      not that we don't have the programmer quality to build these tools, if
      they were really necessary.

      If 20+ years of Perl existence has gone by with Perl being "the glue
      of the Internet" and no IDE has sprung up? Why do Java developers tout
      the power of their IDEs and not the power of their language?

      Answer those questions and maybe you'll start to convince me that an
      IDE for Perl is worthwhile.

      Rob
    • Siegfried Heintze
      Since there was a helpful discussion some time ago on USB keyboards and mice for pair programming that was not specific to perl, I wanted to solicit the group
      Message 107 of 107 , Feb 13, 2006
        Since there was a helpful discussion some time ago on USB keyboards and mice
        for pair programming that was not specific to perl, I wanted to solicit the
        group for information on network software (also not specific to perl).



        I just set up openVPN on my openwrt/WRT54G router for pair programming with
        a headset and skype.



        (1) Can any point me to the documentation on sharing desktops on windows? I
        need to create accounts on Win2003 XP Server. When I created an account
        belonging only to the user group, my partner could not log in. He was
        receiving some error message about not being permitted to log in
        interactively. However, when I added the administrator group (reluctantly)
        to his account, he could log in. Is there a tutorial somewhere on the web
        for creating user accounts in windows for use with remote desktop logins on
        VPNs?



        (2) How do I share my remote desktop setting with a programming pair
        partner?



        (3) What about sharing sessions when I'm booted with linux? I think there is
        a vnc program out there, but I don't know how to use it. I'll need to learn
        how to create accounts and share linux desktops with remote VPN users. Is
        there a tutorial on this?



        (4) Are video cams very helpful for pair programming?



        It seems that this kind of knowledge would be very common for pair
        programmers.



        Thanks,

        Siegfried



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