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Re: [extremeperl] Better Development Tools for Perl

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  • Adam Turoff
    ... My view is that the team, rather than the tools, determines what makes a project viable, regardless of scale. Rob s statement about 7 +/- 2 is really about
    Message 1 of 107 , Jun 9, 2005
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      On 6/9/05, J Matisse Enzer <matisse@...> wrote:
      > On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:56 AM, Adam Turoff wrote:
      > > I get the point that Rob was trying to make about any task requiring
      > > looking at 7 +/- 2 lines of code, and keeping ~50 lines of context
      > > available at any point. If you can code in that style, then IDEs, big
      > > classes, forests of methods and the like just get in your way. Method
      > > auto-completion isn't a productivity boost as much as it's a coping
      > > strategy.
      >
      > So, is it correct to say that you don't think the tools for Perl
      > require much improvement? That Perl will continue to be a viable choice
      > in the marketplace for medium/large projects (not just in theory)
      > without tools like those available for Java, C#, VB, etc.?

      My view is that the team, rather than the tools, determines what makes
      a project viable, regardless of scale.

      Rob's statement about 7 +/- 2 is really about bottom up design and
      coding. No more, no less. I don't say that to be dismissive, but to
      clarify. If you are ruthless in your bottom up coding practices, you
      can accomplish a great deal, regardless of your editor, IDE, or the
      language and libraries you're using.

      The big problem with IDEs is that they tend to hide or reduce the
      penalty of letting large systems slowly complexify over time. A team
      that uses an IDE to build a horrible Java-based system would also build
      a horrible Perl-based system. The difference is that building such a
      horrible system in Perl would take more effort and be more painful.

      But if your team has the skills to build a workable large system, it
      doesn't matter whether they use Perl or Java, emacs/vim or Eclipse.
      The difference is in the latent architecture of the system, not the
      means they used to build it.

      Sure, there are tool improvements that can make Perl programming easier.
      The first (and only) one that comes to mind is a true grammar driven
      syntax highlighter instead of the regex-based hacks that vim uses
      today. Some people find ActiveState's graphical regex debugger to be
      great help; personally, I'm happy with 'perl -de0'. ;-)

      > Also, I'd love to see some example of the kinds of code you are talking
      > about - medium/large systems where every tasks is handled in 5-12 lines
      > of code and where and IDE would only make it harder to maintain. Are
      > there 2 or 3 open source examples you could point to?

      Crack open any good book on Lisp, Scheme, Haskell or ML. The way
      functional programmers write code tends to be very bottom up. The
      first few functions may look too trivial to be of any value, but as you
      combine simple functions to make more complex ones, you slowly
      build a whole system.

      Dominus' example of building a functional replacement for File::Find
      is also very good. Instead of building a class that has 147 methods
      for finding files, it has one method that takes a coderef you
      construct to determine which files interest you now.

      -- Adam
    • Siegfried Heintze
      Since there was a helpful discussion some time ago on USB keyboards and mice for pair programming that was not specific to perl, I wanted to solicit the group
      Message 107 of 107 , Feb 13, 2006
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        Since there was a helpful discussion some time ago on USB keyboards and mice
        for pair programming that was not specific to perl, I wanted to solicit the
        group for information on network software (also not specific to perl).



        I just set up openVPN on my openwrt/WRT54G router for pair programming with
        a headset and skype.



        (1) Can any point me to the documentation on sharing desktops on windows? I
        need to create accounts on Win2003 XP Server. When I created an account
        belonging only to the user group, my partner could not log in. He was
        receiving some error message about not being permitted to log in
        interactively. However, when I added the administrator group (reluctantly)
        to his account, he could log in. Is there a tutorial somewhere on the web
        for creating user accounts in windows for use with remote desktop logins on
        VPNs?



        (2) How do I share my remote desktop setting with a programming pair
        partner?



        (3) What about sharing sessions when I'm booted with linux? I think there is
        a vnc program out there, but I don't know how to use it. I'll need to learn
        how to create accounts and share linux desktops with remote VPN users. Is
        there a tutorial on this?



        (4) Are video cams very helpful for pair programming?



        It seems that this kind of knowledge would be very common for pair
        programmers.



        Thanks,

        Siegfried



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