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False Hopes

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  • ptoolc
    Too bad. It was such a lovely dream. But Sant Mat, like Christianity, Islam, and other montheistic religions is at best a placebo. It has some mitigating
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 7, 2006
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      Too bad. It was such a lovely dream. But Sant Mat, like Christianity,
      Islam, and other montheistic religions is at best a placebo. It has
      some mitigating effects based on wishful thinking. The Beas brand of
      Sant Mat is brilliant, well thought out and executed. They full well
      understand the power of imagery and the power of ideas. The power of an
      idea is understood by the powerful because it enslaves the mind of the
      man/woman who wishes for a better world or just for the world to come.

      In the marketplace of ideas, Sant Mat is just another competing voice
      crying for market share. Why?
      It's economics folks. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. There ain't
      no god, no godmen, no godwomen. At least P.T. Barnum was honest when he
      said "There's a sucker born every minute." But don't feel so bad. We
      were suckered by one of the best. That ain't so bad. At least no body
      is
      trying to cut your head off because you don't believe anymore. Walk
      away, forget about it, and live your life free of someone elses
      control. Be your own person. Grow into your own shoes. Learn what it
      means to really be free.
    • Martin
      ... Christianity, ... has ... of ... well ... of an ... the ... come. ... voice ... ain t ... when he ... We ... body ... Walk ... it ... Right On Marty
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 8, 2006
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        --- In exsat@yahoogroups.com, ptoolc <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Too bad. It was such a lovely dream. But Sant Mat, like
        Christianity,
        > Islam, and other montheistic religions is at best a placebo. It
        has
        > some mitigating effects based on wishful thinking. The Beas brand
        of
        > Sant Mat is brilliant, well thought out and executed. They full
        well
        > understand the power of imagery and the power of ideas. The power
        of an
        > idea is understood by the powerful because it enslaves the mind of
        the
        > man/woman who wishes for a better world or just for the world to
        come.
        >
        > In the marketplace of ideas, Sant Mat is just another competing
        voice
        > crying for market share. Why?
        > It's economics folks. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. There
        ain't
        > no god, no godmen, no godwomen. At least P.T. Barnum was honest
        when he
        > said "There's a sucker born every minute." But don't feel so bad.
        We
        > were suckered by one of the best. That ain't so bad. At least no
        body
        > is
        > trying to cut your head off because you don't believe anymore.
        Walk
        > away, forget about it, and live your life free of someone elses
        > control. Be your own person. Grow into your own shoes. Learn what
        it
        > means to really be free.
        ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
        Right On
        Marty
      • lulalake_1999
        ... Christianity, ... of ... well ... of an ... the ... come. ... voice ... ain t ... when he ... We ... body ... it ... Man! Long time no hear. Good to see
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 8, 2006
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          --- In exsat@yahoogroups.com, ptoolc <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Too bad. It was such a lovely dream. But Sant Mat, like
          Christianity,
          > Islam, and other montheistic religions is at best a placebo. It has
          > some mitigating effects based on wishful thinking. The Beas brand
          of
          > Sant Mat is brilliant, well thought out and executed. They full
          well
          > understand the power of imagery and the power of ideas. The power
          of an
          > idea is understood by the powerful because it enslaves the mind of
          the
          > man/woman who wishes for a better world or just for the world to
          come.
          >
          > In the marketplace of ideas, Sant Mat is just another competing
          voice
          > crying for market share. Why?
          > It's economics folks. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. There
          ain't
          > no god, no godmen, no godwomen. At least P.T. Barnum was honest
          when he
          > said "There's a sucker born every minute." But don't feel so bad.
          We
          > were suckered by one of the best. That ain't so bad. At least no
          body
          > is
          > trying to cut your head off because you don't believe anymore. Walk
          > away, forget about it, and live your life free of someone elses
          > control. Be your own person. Grow into your own shoes. Learn what
          it
          > means to really be free.


          Man!
          Long time no hear. Good to see your posts again

          Jules
        • ptoolc
          Thanks for the welcome Jules. I check in from time to time to see what s going on with this site. I just want everyone to know, those who have exited sant mat
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 8, 2006
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            Thanks for the welcome Jules. I check in from time to time to see
            what's going on with this site. I just want everyone to know, those
            who have exited sant mat or are trying to, that there is indeed a
            life ahead of you if you let go of the rope. The father of wisdom is
            experience, and to quote loosely the advice of Charan Singh, one's
            beliefs (he did have some value) should never be based on another's
            experience. If you can't prove it for yourself through experience,
            then as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist. If it is experienced
            it should be repeatable. The sad thing is so many sincere and
            genuinely decent people got pulled into this dead end. But like I
            said, at least it was a brilliant deception so one shouldn't feel too
            bad about being taken in. This is the way of the world and why one
            should exercise always the utmost discernment in matters this
            important. Doesn't always mean you can't be suckered, but it should
            be harder the second time. Instincts, that little voice inside thats
            usually a simple yes or no, if you are hearing it loud and clear, is
            usually a good guide. Learning to trust that is hard because
            sometimes it runs counter to an !!!EMOTIONAL!!!! response. Most
            decisions ARE emotional which usually means !!!IRRATIONAL!!!!. Sant
            Mat has a certain logic to it which seems sound but the leap from the
            material to the spiritual is empty space. There is no bridge, which
            is why there is no purchase in the attempt. It has been seven years
            or so since I walked away from Sant Mat. I have not even been
            seriously tempted to look back, or to re-check it out. I have gone on
            with my life and that hole Sant Mat left closed up just fine. It
            wasn't a very big hole in the end. Turns out it was mostly gas!
            I can't say I'm the happiest guy in the world but life is ok (given
            the alternative). At least I'm not being torn apart by the internal
            contradictions I had with sant mat. The war with myself is over, and
            by and large, I do have the peace that so eluded me with sant mat.
            Life is short and for all we know this is the only one we get. My
            advice: Live it. Don't let anyone cheat you out of it.
          • temporary2001
            Hey ptoolc, It s wonderful to read your words again. I remember the thrill I felt when you first began to post here. Such a sincere human voice. My reaction
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 8, 2006
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              Hey ptoolc,

              It's wonderful to read your words again. I remember the
              thrill I felt when you first began to post here. Such a sincere
              human voice.

              My reaction to you was like, "Hello myself!!! I agree with
              everything you are saying and feeling. I also went through
              what you did and emerged as you did."

              I would add to what you have said that, for me, I have
              had a tendency to UNDERESTIMATE the work required to
              do something well in the world. I somehow thought that
              it "should be" easier to have skills and abilities that it really
              is. Then if you look at what people do to become a professional
              tennis player or pianist or actor, it is very humbling.

              As an exsatsangi if I want to experience a really fulfilled
              happy life I have a huge amount of work to do. I am in
              many ways like an ex-drug addict. I now need to re-program
              the chemistry of my brain cells. Previously I got the rush of
              believing that I was some very special person who was in
              on a great secret - I was personal friends with the creator and I
              even knew what body he was resident in and where he lived.

              Heady stuff. Potent wine to excite the brain.

              Now if I need to return to an ordinary person, I will have to do
              as much work as someone coming off 40 years of cocaine or
              opium addiction, if I want to be happy when I wake up in the
              morning without my "belief drug".

              Cheers, and best of luck, brother.

              The adventure of life really only begins after you get free of
              the BS and beliefs that you are somehow different from other
              people.



              temp



              --- In exsat@yahoogroups.com, ptoolc <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the welcome Jules. I check in from time to time to see
              > what's going on with this site. I just want everyone to know, those
              > who have exited sant mat or are trying to, that there is indeed a
              > life ahead of you if you let go of the rope. The father of wisdom is
              > experience, and to quote loosely the advice of Charan Singh, one's
              > beliefs (he did have some value) should never be based on another's
              > experience. If you can't prove it for yourself through experience,
              > then as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist. If it is experienced
              > it should be repeatable. The sad thing is so many sincere and
              > genuinely decent people got pulled into this dead end. But like I
              > said, at least it was a brilliant deception so one shouldn't feel too
              > bad about being taken in. This is the way of the world and why one
              > should exercise always the utmost discernment in matters this
              > important. Doesn't always mean you can't be suckered, but it should
              > be harder the second time. Instincts, that little voice inside thats
              > usually a simple yes or no, if you are hearing it loud and clear, is
              > usually a good guide. Learning to trust that is hard because
              > sometimes it runs counter to an !!!EMOTIONAL!!!! response. Most
              > decisions ARE emotional which usually means !!!IRRATIONAL!!!!. Sant
              > Mat has a certain logic to it which seems sound but the leap from the
              > material to the spiritual is empty space. There is no bridge, which
              > is why there is no purchase in the attempt. It has been seven years
              > or so since I walked away from Sant Mat. I have not even been
              > seriously tempted to look back, or to re-check it out. I have gone on
              > with my life and that hole Sant Mat left closed up just fine. It
              > wasn't a very big hole in the end. Turns out it was mostly gas!
              > I can't say I'm the happiest guy in the world but life is ok (given
              > the alternative). At least I'm not being torn apart by the internal
              > contradictions I had with sant mat. The war with myself is over, and
              > by and large, I do have the peace that so eluded me with sant mat.
              > Life is short and for all we know this is the only one we get. My
              > advice: Live it. Don't let anyone cheat you out of it.
              >
            • jaimal_nz
              ... Christianity, ... has ... of ... well ... of an ... the ... come. ... voice ... As an ex-sat I agree almost completely with your well-written post and your
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 8, 2006
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                --- In exsat@yahoogroups.com, ptoolc <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > Too bad. It was such a lovely dream. But Sant Mat, like
                Christianity,
                > Islam, and other montheistic religions is at best a placebo. It
                has
                > some mitigating effects based on wishful thinking. The Beas brand
                of
                > Sant Mat is brilliant, well thought out and executed. They full
                well
                > understand the power of imagery and the power of ideas. The power
                of an
                > idea is understood by the powerful because it enslaves the mind of
                the
                > man/woman who wishes for a better world or just for the world to
                come.
                >
                > In the marketplace of ideas, Sant Mat is just another competing
                voice
                > crying for market share. Why?

                As an ex-sat I agree almost completely with your well-written post
                and your sincerity. I, too, enjoy the freedom from the prison of
                Sant Mat, realising well I am what I am and cannot be anything else
                than that. BUT, in 1984, on my first visit to Dera (initiated 1974)
                I was in a bad state, depressed, bored, melancholy (from personal
                reasons) and went on a whim really when it seemed there was nothing
                else to do. What happened there was to me a miracle. Charan lifted
                my consciousness to a level where nothing mattered, where everything
                was exactly as it should be, all was crystal clear, when I knew
                without the slightest doubt I was loved just as I was (warts and
                all). This state of clarity stayed with me for the next two weeks of
                being at Dera, then I returned home (New Zealand) and stayed in this
                realm of pure ecstacy for another four weeks. For the first two
                weeks at Dera I was bored out of my mind, wanting to change my
                airline bookings but not possible. At the personal interview with
                Charan I tried to explain my intense state of loneliness, well,
                somehow he changed that in a flash. You can analyse it for all it's
                worth but it was REAL, as real as I sit here typing. No doubt my own
                receptivity, my own need for some clarification that matched my
                temperament and/or brain chemistry were factors in arousing this
                altered state of perception. Upon coming home I had not the
                slightest interest in books, radio, tv (I am a voracious reader),
                all I wanted was just to be, to exist at this wondrous level.
                Naturally in order to function in this pragmatic world it faded
                gradually and my former interests again became dominant. I could say
                I fell in love, deep love with Charan and this love is there with me
                for the rest of my life. I don't even think about it, it's just
                there. You could say well you were a satsangi, why an ex-sat? I see
                sant mat as a cult now where everyday life and the freedoms we enjoy
                in our western culture
                just don't mesh with this path. Not in any shape or form. I recall
                reading cult deprogramming books and thinking smugly well they are
                certainly caught up in a cult but sant mat is not that - poor
                things! I returned to India three times after 1984 with no more
                experiences. Just ordinary visits. What got me the most was the
                arrogance of satsangis repeating over and over that we don't know
                how lucky we are. For years I would never speak about my experience
                believing that everyone had had the same and with so much emphasis
                upon not discussing these things. Whether they have or not I haven't
                the slightest idea. Now, it's all the memory of a memory but nothing
                in my life has the faintest equal to those six ecstatic weeks.
                Nothing has come close. Much more I could say but wanting to keep
                this brief.
                Isha
                > It's economics folks. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. There
                ain't
                > no god, no godmen, no godwomen. At least P.T. Barnum was honest
                when he
                > said "There's a sucker born every minute." But don't feel so bad.
                We
                > were suckered by one of the best. That ain't so bad. At least no
                body
                > is
                > trying to cut your head off because you don't believe anymore.
                Walk
                > away, forget about it, and live your life free of someone elses
                > control. Be your own person. Grow into your own shoes. Learn what
                it
                > means to really be free.
                >
              • ptoolc
                To Isha, I had my experiences too, like most people who saw the master. I don t know how to explain them. I have come to the conclusion that those experiences
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 8, 2006
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                  To Isha,
                  I had my experiences too, like most people who saw the master. I
                  don't know how to explain them. I have come to the conclusion that
                  those experiences say more about how the brain works than anything
                  else.
                  My first glimpse of the master (with his brother Shoti)was
                  impressive. I had hardly gotten into the guest house grounds after
                  the long flight from America than Dev Prakash told us all to hurry to
                  the dining room, that master was coming, that we should leave our
                  luggage by the office and hurry over. I thought to myself "I've
                  waited seven years for this moment and now here it is". Oddly, I
                  didn't feel any emotion at all, just curiosity. I heard car doors
                  closing outside the dining hall and then in an instant Charan and
                  Shoti and a few others came into the hall. The hall became hushed.
                  Shoti and Charan were sharing something humorous between them before
                  they came in but became serious once inside. Both Charan and Shoti
                  were lit up by some kind of light that seemed to be at their core and
                  radiated out through the pores of their skin. The hair, whiskers and
                  eyebrows seemed like filaments but it was a light I had never seen in
                  this world. I don't remember how long they appeared that way. As he
                  moved around the room he was introduced to the newcomers. As he got
                  closer to me I moved away so I could keep him in objective. At one
                  point I went to an adjoining darkened room to observe him and he
                  looked at me with a puzzled look on his face as if to say "Why are
                  you in there?"
                  I am a Vietnam Veteran. I don't mean to sound whiny about it, but
                  that experience was like a depth charge to the very core of me. It
                  left me reeling, lost and desperate for something to cling to. I was
                  so afraid I would not make it and I desperately needed to make sense
                  of a world that fell out from under me. I thought the answers would
                  be found in a spiritual context. I needed truth and I needed to know
                  why things happened. I don't know how to convey how massively
                  confused I was about everything except to say clear critical thinking
                  was not in the ascendent for me. It was very emotion driven, this
                  path to sant mat. Everything before it seemed to lead me to it as
                  though destiny's hand was at my back. When I found out about the
                  Master and read what he was like, I cried and cried and cried. I
                  thought that hand had reached out to me in that deep dark well of
                  despair. I truly felt I had been rescued. I don't want to beat this
                  horse except to say I did not enter into Sant Mat lightly nor did I
                  leave it lightly. I took it seriously and did the best I could to
                  abide by its tenets. But you know, you can only go on so long with
                  only pithy anecdotes, chastisement, and the eternal admonition to
                  just keep meditating to feed you. All the highs in his presence and
                  the wierd visual distortions, all the groovy seva (I was on security
                  for Gurinder several times, up close and personal), all the prasad,
                  all the nice satsang meetings, none of it really quite cut it when I
                  looked inside myself and saw that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FUNDAMENTALLY
                  WAS DIFFERENT ABOUT ME. I was still just me. Nothing holy. Nothing
                  special. Same old identity. I didn't feel more loving, more generous,
                  more spiritual. After 27 years all I felt was older. I didn't feel
                  like I was being fed manna from heaven. I was sick of blaming my self
                  for being such a spiritual loser. I even tried straight forward
                  praying. Fuck meditation. I'm going direct, I said. "Please Lord,
                  just give me a crumb of encouragement. That's all I ask. Just a
                  crumb." Of course there was no response. With time I just dried up.
                  This so called path of love...well, seems like a one-way street to
                  me. So believe me, I know how you feel.
                • Sita
                  ... to ... before ... and ... and ... in ... he ... got ... was ... sense ... would ... know ... thinking ... this ... I ... and ... security ... prasad, ... I
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 9, 2006
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                    --- In exsat@yahoogroups.com, ptoolc <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > To Isha,
                    > I had my experiences too, like most people who saw the master. I
                    > don't know how to explain them. I have come to the conclusion that
                    > those experiences say more about how the brain works than anything
                    > else.
                    > My first glimpse of the master (with his brother Shoti)was
                    > impressive. I had hardly gotten into the guest house grounds after
                    > the long flight from America than Dev Prakash told us all to hurry
                    to
                    > the dining room, that master was coming, that we should leave our
                    > luggage by the office and hurry over. I thought to myself "I've
                    > waited seven years for this moment and now here it is". Oddly, I
                    > didn't feel any emotion at all, just curiosity. I heard car doors
                    > closing outside the dining hall and then in an instant Charan and
                    > Shoti and a few others came into the hall. The hall became hushed.
                    > Shoti and Charan were sharing something humorous between them
                    before
                    > they came in but became serious once inside. Both Charan and Shoti
                    > were lit up by some kind of light that seemed to be at their core
                    and
                    > radiated out through the pores of their skin. The hair, whiskers
                    and
                    > eyebrows seemed like filaments but it was a light I had never seen
                    in
                    > this world. I don't remember how long they appeared that way. As
                    he
                    > moved around the room he was introduced to the newcomers. As he
                    got
                    > closer to me I moved away so I could keep him in objective. At one
                    > point I went to an adjoining darkened room to observe him and he
                    > looked at me with a puzzled look on his face as if to say "Why are
                    > you in there?"
                    > I am a Vietnam Veteran. I don't mean to sound whiny about it, but
                    > that experience was like a depth charge to the very core of me. It
                    > left me reeling, lost and desperate for something to cling to. I
                    was
                    > so afraid I would not make it and I desperately needed to make
                    sense
                    > of a world that fell out from under me. I thought the answers
                    would
                    > be found in a spiritual context. I needed truth and I needed to
                    know
                    > why things happened. I don't know how to convey how massively
                    > confused I was about everything except to say clear critical
                    thinking
                    > was not in the ascendent for me. It was very emotion driven, this
                    > path to sant mat. Everything before it seemed to lead me to it as
                    > though destiny's hand was at my back. When I found out about the
                    > Master and read what he was like, I cried and cried and cried. I
                    > thought that hand had reached out to me in that deep dark well of
                    > despair. I truly felt I had been rescued. I don't want to beat
                    this
                    > horse except to say I did not enter into Sant Mat lightly nor did
                    I
                    > leave it lightly. I took it seriously and did the best I could to
                    > abide by its tenets. But you know, you can only go on so long with
                    > only pithy anecdotes, chastisement, and the eternal admonition to
                    > just keep meditating to feed you. All the highs in his presence
                    and
                    > the wierd visual distortions, all the groovy seva (I was on
                    security
                    > for Gurinder several times, up close and personal), all the
                    prasad,
                    > all the nice satsang meetings, none of it really quite cut it when
                    I
                    > looked inside myself and saw that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FUNDAMENTALLY
                    > WAS DIFFERENT ABOUT ME. I was still just me. Nothing holy. Nothing
                    > special. Same old identity. I didn't feel more loving, more
                    generous,
                    > more spiritual. After 27 years all I felt was older. I didn't feel
                    > like I was being fed manna from heaven. I was sick of blaming my
                    self
                    > for being such a spiritual loser. I even tried straight forward
                    > praying. Fuck meditation. I'm going direct, I said. "Please Lord,
                    > just give me a crumb of encouragement. That's all I ask. Just a
                    > crumb." Of course there was no response. With time I just dried
                    up.
                    > This so called path of love...well, seems like a one-way street to
                    > me. So believe me, I know how you feel.
                    >
                    Thank You so much..
                  • freefallinow
                    ... brand ... power ... of ... There ... bad. ... what ... has ... last night on CBC, an excellent documentary by Richard Dawkins which some of you may want to
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 21, 2006
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                      --- In exsat@yahoogroups.com, swamianami <no_reply@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In exsat@yahoogroups.com, ptoolc <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Too bad. It was such a lovely dream. But Sant Mat, like
                      > Christianity,
                      > > Islam, and other montheistic religions is at best a placebo. It
                      > has
                      > > some mitigating effects based on wishful thinking. The Beas
                      brand
                      > of
                      > > Sant Mat is brilliant, well thought out and executed. They full
                      > well
                      > > understand the power of imagery and the power of ideas. The
                      power
                      > of an
                      > > idea is understood by the powerful because it enslaves the mind
                      of
                      > the
                      > > man/woman who wishes for a better world or just for the world to
                      > come.
                      > >
                      > > In the marketplace of ideas, Sant Mat is just another competing
                      > voice
                      > > crying for market share. Why?
                      > > It's economics folks. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
                      There
                      > ain't
                      > > no god, no godmen, no godwomen. At least P.T. Barnum was honest
                      > when he
                      > > said "There's a sucker born every minute." But don't feel so
                      bad.
                      > We
                      > > were suckered by one of the best. That ain't so bad. At least no
                      > body
                      > > is
                      > > trying to cut your head off because you don't believe anymore.
                      > Walk
                      > > away, forget about it, and live your life free of someone elses
                      > > control. Be your own person. Grow into your own shoes. Learn
                      what
                      > it
                      > > means to really be free.
                      > >
                      >
                      > So very true. That's precisely what I have been saying over at
                      > radhasoamistudies for many moons. But sadly, the response there
                      has
                      > been antagonistic to say the least.

                      last night on CBC, an excellent documentary by Richard Dawkins
                      which some of you may want to look for in your areas:

                      Big Picture With Avi Lewis: 10 p.m., CBC Newsworld. Host Avi Lewis
                      and a studio audience will screen and debate British scientist
                      Richard (a.k.a. Darwin's Rottweiler) Dawkins' documentary The Root
                      of All Evil?, an indictment of religion's growing power in the post-
                      9/11 world. Dawkins clashes with Ted Haggard, one of America's most
                      powerful Christian evangelists, and then travels to Jerusalem to
                      meet Jews and Muslims who defend their faith against his assertion
                      that "irrational faith is back on the march" and harmful to modern
                      civilization.


                      >
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