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Anyone elsegoing to PhilCon?

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  • Christopher Weuve
    Through an improbable series of events, I find myself not only going to PhilCon, but signed up to speak on four panels. Fri 8:00 PM in 306—From the Page to
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 4, 2005
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      Through an improbable series of events, I find myself not only going to
      PhilCon, but signed up to speak on four panels.

      Fri 8:00 PM in 306—From the Page to the Table (254)
      Ever since they have been RPGs, gamers have been adapting the worlds of
      literature. What worlds and works would you like to see adapted? What
      licensed products have been faithful adaptions, and which ones have
      missed the mark completely?
      Michael Ryan (mod), Walter Hunt, Mike McPhail, Deb Ruh, Christopher
      Weuve

      Sat 1:00 PM in 414—Building a better game: Space combat simulations
      (246)
      Many different assumptions have been made in space combat simulations.
      Does the modern air combat model hold sway, or does the naval model
      reflect the realities of the future? How realistically can can you plot
      a 3-D universe in 2 dimensions?
      Walter Hunt (mod), Mike McPhail, Tom Rhoads, Michael Ryan, Christopher
      Weuve

      Sun 12:00 PM in Salon H—Space War: How Would It be Waged and Why? (173)
      Why would you want to go to war with a planet that takes 30 years to
      get to?
      Ian Randal Strock (mod), David Weber, James Patrick Kelly, Christopher
      Weuve

      Sun 2:00 PM in Salon G—Is there More to Space Opera than Space Fleets
      and Exploding Planets? (171)
      A discussion of the history of space opera.
      James Patrick Kelly (mod), David Weber, Susan Shwartz, Christopher Weuve

      Note: I am sending this to several mailing lists, so be careful of your
      replies.

      chrisw
    • Christopher Weuve
      ... Okay, when I rush I forget stuff. The point of the last email wasn t to solicit an audience, but to ask if anyone was going, and whether there was any
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 4, 2005
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        On Dec 4, 2005, at 1:54 PM, Christopher Weuve wrote:

        > Through an improbable series of events, I find myself not only going to
        > PhilCon, but signed up to speak on four panels.

        Okay, when I rush I forget stuff.

        The point of the last email wasn't to solicit an audience, but to ask
        if anyone was going, and whether there was any interest in a get
        together.

        Other than at the times listed, there's a good chance of finding me at
        the Ad Astra Games booth in the dealer's room.

        chrisw
      • Dave Trowbridge
        I ll not be at PhilCon, but I will be in Washington, D.C. on Wednesday, March 8, and have the option of taking some time off to hang around, so I could be
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 23, 2005
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          I'll not be at PhilCon, but I will be in Washington, D.C. on Wednesday,
          March 8, and have the option of taking some time off to hang around, so I
          could be there either the weekend of the 4th or of the 11th.

          --
          Dave Trowbridge
          The Redwood Dragon
          http://www.davetrowbridge.com/MT
          davetrow@...

          On 12/4/05, Christopher Weuve <caw@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > On Dec 4, 2005, at 1:54 PM, Christopher Weuve wrote:
          >
          > > Through an improbable series of events, I find myself not only going to
          > > PhilCon, but signed up to speak on four panels.
          >
          > Okay, when I rush I forget stuff.
          >
          > The point of the last email wasn't to solicit an audience, but to ask
          > if anyone was going, and whether there was any interest in a get
          > together.
          >
          > Other than at the times listed, there's a good chance of finding me at
          > the Ad Astra Games booth in the dealer's room.
          >
          > chrisw
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ================================
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ryx
          Has anyone actually compiled a complete list of the Jasparan Principles of Governance (I.e. the Unalterables, Polarites, et al)? I was just curious. I was
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 23, 2005
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            Has anyone actually compiled a complete list of the Jasparan Principles
            of Governance (I.e. the Unalterables, Polarites, et al)?

            I was just curious.

            I was having problems with an inmate a couple of days ago and threw the
            following at him:
            "Do that which consists of no action and order will prevail."
            Having just read that earlier that day before work. I told the guy to
            think on it and he did... he hasn't said a word to me since, but he did
            calm down. He probably thinks I'm quite off my nut. ;p

            Anyway, I was just curious.
            Happy whatever-holiday-you-want.

            Ryx.
          • Dave Trowbridge
            Ryx-- Wonderful to hear that you found something from Exordium useful in the real world. I d be interested to hear more about your job, on or off list. I
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 23, 2005
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              Ryx--

              Wonderful to hear that you found something from Exordium useful in the real
              world. I'd be interested to hear more about your job, on or off list. I
              wonder if he calmed down because he was thinking about what you said, or
              because what you said made him think you were dangerously insane and thus
              not to be trifled with! <g>

              But we can't take credit for that one: that's from Lao Tse, the Taoist
              philosopher.

              And, coincidentally (or perhaps, given the heavy debt to Jungian thought in
              Exordium, I should say synchronistically), just last night Sherwood and I
              were discussing the necessity of compiling a complete list of the Polarities
              to make sure we use them in the Tides of Men series, the first book of
              which, The Invisible Order, is presently stalled on my side of the court,
              being only a chapter or so from completion.

              On 12/23/05, Ryx <larkshadow@...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone actually compiled a complete list of the Jasparan Principles
              > of Governance (I.e. the Unalterables, Polarites, et al)?
              >
              > I was just curious.
              >
              > I was having problems with an inmate a couple of days ago and threw the
              > following at him:
              > "Do that which consists of no action and order will prevail."
              > Having just read that earlier that day before work. I told the guy to
              > think on it and he did... he hasn't said a word to me since, but he did
              > calm down. He probably thinks I'm quite off my nut. ;p
              >
              > Anyway, I was just curious.
              > Happy whatever-holiday-you-want.
              >
              > Ryx.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ================================
              > Unsubscribe address: exordium-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > ChrisW's Exordium webpage: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordium.htm
              > Exordium-L webpage: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordiuml.htm
              > Exordium-L FAQ: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordiuml.txt
              >
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              >
              >
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              --
              Dave Trowbridge
              The Redwood Dragon
              http://www.davetrowbridge.com/MT
              davetrow@...


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sherwood Smith
              Ryx, that is cool. I d like to hear more about your job! Like Dave said, we were talking, as I d just completed reading the entire series all the way
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 23, 2005
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                Ryx, that is cool. I'd like to hear more about your job!

                Like Dave said, we were talking, as I'd just completed reading the entire series all the way through--for the very first time. (I've read bits and pieces, but nothing all the way through.) We don't have all the Polarities in one place, but next time I read it I mean to note them all down.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ryx
                ... Wow, for the first time? You two put together such a marvelous masterpiece of literary genius and you... *gasp* *faint* Never read it cover to cover
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 24, 2005
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                  Sherwood Smith wrote:
                  > Ryx, that is cool. I'd like to hear more about your job!
                  >
                  > Like Dave said, we were talking, as I'd just completed reading the entire series all the way through--for the very first time. (I've read bits and pieces, but nothing all the way through.) We don't have all the Polarities in one place, but next time I read it I mean to note them all down.


                  Wow, for the first time?
                  You two put together such a marvelous masterpiece of literary genius and
                  you... *gasp* *faint* Never read it cover to cover x5???
                  I just finished my 4th reading (I realize others have read it much more
                  often), but each time I glean a little more from the complexity of it.

                  The Taoistic outlook mystified me the first two times, I realized it was
                  there the third time and actually figured out what it was, and the
                  fourth time I actually sensed the coherant kernel of (Tao, Jungian,
                  Tantrism?) throughout. All of it very .. I hate to say 'indian', but
                  that's the only ancient world I know that follows such pathways. Pn my
                  off days and before I go in each day for work I tend a handful of
                  rescued wolves for a crazy old native-american and his wife; she teaches
                  Yoga in town, so we were discussing some simple aspects of Tao and I
                  mentioned how it is woven into the complexity of the Exordium and lent
                  her the first book... My dog eared, yellowed, tattered first issue. :)

                  We shall see if she manages to inkle her way through the first 100 pages
                  (aside for the rather tediously slow introduction of Eusabian I felt the
                  beginning of the first book moved along quite well).

                  In all... I still get a giggle each time I think of that big, dour
                  man... playing with a length of yarn much like school girls in the
                  playground... I wonder what sort of curse they'd call a simple Cat's
                  Cradle? :)

                  I would be more interested to re-visit the Thousand Suns 20 years after
                  the war than the whole creation of the empire in the first place,
                  thought he Polarities are of some direct interest.

                  I just wish our *OWN* government would practice a few of them...

                  Eventually one day I'll get that short fiction I scrabbled together
                  online somewhere and linked, but don't quote me on that. *G* I still
                  need to repair the ending.

                  Happy holidaze!
                  Ryx.
                • Dave Trowbridge
                  Tao, Jungian, Tantrism...interesting. I certainly didn t consciously put Tantrism in there. Sherwood? What is also in there is Teilhardian thought, especially
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 24, 2005
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                    Tao, Jungian, Tantrism...interesting. I certainly didn't consciously put
                    Tantrism in there. Sherwood?

                    What is also in there is Teilhardian thought, especially the concept of
                    Telos. For instance, the convergence hinted at between the Kelly and the
                    Eeya'a is part of the evolution towards Telos. I originally wanted to call
                    the concept Omega, as did Teilhard, but Sherwood balked at that because it
                    had been used in Zebrowski's Omega Point Trilogy.

                    On 12/24/05, Ryx <larkshadow@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Sherwood Smith wrote:
                    > > Ryx, that is cool. I'd like to hear more about your job!
                    > >
                    > > Like Dave said, we were talking, as I'd just completed reading the
                    > entire series all the way through--for the very first time. (I've read bits
                    > and pieces, but nothing all the way through.) We don't have all the
                    > Polarities in one place, but next time I read it I mean to note them all
                    > down.
                    >
                    >
                    > Wow, for the first time?
                    > You two put together such a marvelous masterpiece of literary genius and
                    > you... *gasp* *faint* Never read it cover to cover x5???
                    > I just finished my 4th reading (I realize others have read it much more
                    > often), but each time I glean a little more from the complexity of it.
                    >
                    > The Taoistic outlook mystified me the first two times, I realized it was
                    > there the third time and actually figured out what it was, and the
                    > fourth time I actually sensed the coherant kernel of (Tao, Jungian,
                    > Tantrism?) throughout. All of it very .. I hate to say 'indian', but
                    > that's the only ancient world I know that follows such pathways. Pn my
                    > off days and before I go in each day for work I tend a handful of
                    > rescued wolves for a crazy old native-american and his wife; she teaches
                    > Yoga in town, so we were discussing some simple aspects of Tao and I
                    > mentioned how it is woven into the complexity of the Exordium and lent
                    > her the first book... My dog eared, yellowed, tattered first issue. :)
                    >
                    > We shall see if she manages to inkle her way through the first 100 pages
                    > (aside for the rather tediously slow introduction of Eusabian I felt the
                    > beginning of the first book moved along quite well).
                    >
                    > In all... I still get a giggle each time I think of that big, dour
                    > man... playing with a length of yarn much like school girls in the
                    > playground... I wonder what sort of curse they'd call a simple Cat's
                    > Cradle? :)
                    >
                    > I would be more interested to re-visit the Thousand Suns 20 years after
                    > the war than the whole creation of the empire in the first place,
                    > thought he Polarities are of some direct interest.
                    >
                    > I just wish our *OWN* government would practice a few of them...
                    >
                    > Eventually one day I'll get that short fiction I scrabbled together
                    > online somewhere and linked, but don't quote me on that. *G* I still
                    > need to repair the ending.
                    >
                    > Happy holidaze!
                    > Ryx.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ================================
                    > Unsubscribe address: exordium-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > ChrisW's Exordium webpage: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordium.htm
                    > Exordium-L webpage: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordiuml.htm
                    > Exordium-L FAQ: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordiuml.txt
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Dave Trowbridge
                    The Redwood Dragon
                    http://www.davetrowbridge.com/MT
                    davetrow@...


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sherwood Smith
                    ... From: Dave Trowbridge To: exordium-l@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [exordium-l] Jaspar s Wise Words Tao, Jungian,
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 24, 2005
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Dave Trowbridge
                      To: exordium-l@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 9:38 AM
                      Subject: Re: [exordium-l] Jaspar's Wise Words


                      Tao, Jungian, Tantrism...interesting. I certainly didn't consciously put
                      Tantrism in there. Sherwood?
                      I don't know enough about it! Oh wait. There is a bit of what I remembered of tantrism in the Ultschen thing.


                      What is also in there is Teilhardian thought, especially the concept of
                      Telos. For instance, the convergence hinted at between the Kelly and the
                      Eeya'a is part of the evolution towards Telos. I originally wanted to call
                      the concept Omega, as did Teilhard, but Sherwood balked at that because it
                      had been used in Zebrowski's Omega Point Trilogy.


                      Yeah--I didn't want us getting reamed for copycatting, even though we developed this stuff on our own before the Z. book even hit print!

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ryx
                      ... Admittedly I know too little about any of it... as a matter of fact almost nothing, so perhaps my seeing Tantrism was way off orbit. I actually saw the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 24, 2005
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                        Sherwood Smith wrote:
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Dave Trowbridge
                        > To: exordium-l@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 9:38 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [exordium-l] Jaspar's Wise Words
                        >
                        >
                        > Tao, Jungian, Tantrism...interesting. I certainly didn't consciously put
                        > Tantrism in there. Sherwood?
                        > I don't know enough about it! Oh wait. There is a bit of what I remembered of tantrism in the Ultschen thing.

                        Admittedly I know too little about any of it... as a matter of fact
                        almost nothing, so perhaps my seeing Tantrism was way off orbit. I
                        actually saw the Ultschen rituals as analgous to the Black Mass, and
                        thought tantrism more in the practice of Shakrian. Again, though, my
                        lack of understanding leaves me to creating links without adequite anchors.

                        The whole concept of Telos also eluded me, and still does. Is not Telos
                        'the final end', or merely a stepping stone to a higher plane of
                        experience/existance? In some ways I saw Telos as the final binding of
                        all concepts into a single archetype... which I think would be rather
                        boring in the end if everything is One, while the oblivion of the
                        Ultschen was just another avenue to the same goal: Unity of Archetypes
                        through anihillation - again, rather boring in the end since everything
                        is gone.

                        Nukiel saw Telos in the singularity, but then so did the Ultschen...
                        so... I'm confused there.

                        Oh! A question & point of continuity:
                        Why was Nukiel not rescued? The Suneater bounced everything out of its
                        energy sink - the asteroids and the ships that undocked, but not the
                        defunct battlecruiser? If I remember correctly the energy sink was two
                        light hours in radius, but the suneater was considerably further from
                        the star & singularity otherwise the supernova would have overcome it in
                        a matter of seconds, not hours... correct?

                        Curious as ever,
                        Ryx.
                      • Tony Zbaraschuk
                        ... I m curious as well. Any follow-up? :) ... Well, that s good news ;) Anything we can do to nudge completion along? Tony Z -- Despair was kudzu.
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 29, 2005
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                          On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 08:50:57PM -0800, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                          > Ryx--
                          >
                          > Wonderful to hear that you found something from Exordium useful in the real
                          > world. I'd be interested to hear more about your job, on or off list. I
                          > wonder if he calmed down because he was thinking about what you said, or
                          > because what you said made him think you were dangerously insane and thus
                          > not to be trifled with! <g>

                          I'm curious as well. Any follow-up? :)

                          > But we can't take credit for that one: that's from Lao Tse, the Taoist
                          > philosopher.
                          >
                          > And, coincidentally (or perhaps, given the heavy debt to Jungian thought in
                          > Exordium, I should say synchronistically), just last night Sherwood and I
                          > were discussing the necessity of compiling a complete list of the Polarities
                          > to make sure we use them in the Tides of Men series, the first book of
                          > which, The Invisible Order, is presently stalled on my side of the court,
                          > being only a chapter or so from completion.

                          Well, that's good news ;) Anything we can do to nudge completion along?


                          Tony Z

                          --
                          Despair was kudzu.
                          --_Atlanta Nights_, Travis Tea
                        • Tony Zbaraschuk
                          ... For that matter, Julian May used a bunch of Teilhardian concepts in her Pliocene books (though I don t know that she actually used the term Omega until
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 29, 2005
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                            On Sat, Dec 24, 2005 at 11:29:06AM -0800, Sherwood Smith wrote:
                            > Tao, Jungian, Tantrism...interesting. I certainly didn't consciously put
                            > Tantrism in there. Sherwood?
                            >
                            > I don't know enough about it! Oh wait. There is a bit of what I
                            > remembered of tantrism in the Ultschen thing.
                            >
                            >
                            > What is also in there is Teilhardian thought, especially the concept of
                            > Telos. For instance, the convergence hinted at between the Kelly and the
                            > Eeya'a is part of the evolution towards Telos. I originally wanted to call
                            > the concept Omega, as did Teilhard, but Sherwood balked at that because it
                            > had been used in Zebrowski's Omega Point Trilogy.
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah--I didn't want us getting reamed for copycatting, even though
                            > we developed this stuff on our own before the Z. book even hit print!

                            For that matter, Julian May used a bunch of Teilhardian concepts in her
                            Pliocene books (though I don't know that she actually used the term
                            "Omega" until the prequels were published in the 90s. Have to go back
                            and re-read them, I suppose.)


                            Tony Z
                            --
                            Despair was kudzu.
                            --_Atlanta Nights_, Travis Tea
                          • Sherwood Smith
                            ... From: Tony Zbaraschuk To: exordium-l@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [exordium-l] Jaspar s Wise Words On Fri, Dec
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 29, 2005
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                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Tony Zbaraschuk
                              To: exordium-l@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:51 AM
                              Subject: Re: [exordium-l] Jaspar's Wise Words


                              On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 08:50:57PM -0800, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                              ... the Tides of Men series, the first book of
                              > which, The Invisible Order, is presently stalled on my side of the court,
                              > being only a chapter or so from completion.

                              Well, that's good news ;) Anything we can do to nudge completion along?



                              Thanks, Tony! Dave has a heavy duty work deadline looming before he can turn to creative work. (And I asked him to reread Ex before we go over Jaspar again--just to snap the paradigm back into view.)

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Sherwood Smith
                              Ryx: Not ignoring you--I think Dave would answer these better than I could, but he s fighting a swarm of fighting squids, er, deadlines. ... From: Ryx To:
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 29, 2005
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                                Ryx: Not ignoring you--I think Dave would answer these better than I could, but he's fighting a swarm of fighting squids, er, deadlines.
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Ryx
                                To: exordium-l@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 12:58 PM
                                Subject: Re: [exordium-l] Jaspar's Wise Words


                                Sherwood Smith wrote:
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Dave Trowbridge
                                > To: exordium-l@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 9:38 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [exordium-l] Jaspar's Wise Words
                                >
                                >
                                > Tao, Jungian, Tantrism...interesting. I certainly didn't consciously put
                                > Tantrism in there. Sherwood?
                                > I don't know enough about it! Oh wait. There is a bit of what I remembered of tantrism in the Ultschen thing.

                                Admittedly I know too little about any of it... as a matter of fact
                                almost nothing, so perhaps my seeing Tantrism was way off orbit. I
                                actually saw the Ultschen rituals as analgous to the Black Mass, and
                                thought tantrism more in the practice of Shakrian. Again, though, my
                                lack of understanding leaves me to creating links without adequite anchors.

                                The whole concept of Telos also eluded me, and still does. Is not Telos
                                'the final end', or merely a stepping stone to a higher plane of
                                experience/existance? In some ways I saw Telos as the final binding of
                                all concepts into a single archetype... which I think would be rather
                                boring in the end if everything is One, while the oblivion of the
                                Ultschen was just another avenue to the same goal: Unity of Archetypes
                                through anihillation - again, rather boring in the end since everything
                                is gone.

                                Nukiel saw Telos in the singularity, but then so did the Ultschen...
                                so... I'm confused there.

                                Oh! A question & point of continuity:
                                Why was Nukiel not rescued? The Suneater bounced everything out of its
                                energy sink - the asteroids and the ships that undocked, but not the
                                defunct battlecruiser? If I remember correctly the energy sink was two
                                light hours in radius, but the suneater was considerably further from
                                the star & singularity otherwise the supernova would have overcome it in
                                a matter of seconds, not hours... correct?

                                Curious as ever,
                                Ryx.



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                              • Dave Trowbridge
                                Telos is pretty much the Teilhardian Omega Point ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_point). Nukiel was rescued, but we didn t mention it in the book. I
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 31, 2005
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                                  Telos is pretty much the Teilhardian Omega Point (
                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_point).

                                  Nukiel was rescued, but we didn't mention it in the book. I believe he has a
                                  role going forward as a kind of blind seer or something.

                                  The Suneater was within a few light minutes of the supernova, but was not
                                  damaged by it. Remember the bit with the female marine and Ivard at the very
                                  end?

                                  On 12/24/05, Ryx <larkshadow@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Sherwood Smith wrote:
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Dave Trowbridge
                                  > > To: exordium-l@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 9:38 AM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [exordium-l] Jaspar's Wise Words
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Tao, Jungian, Tantrism...interesting. I certainly didn't consciously
                                  > put
                                  > > Tantrism in there. Sherwood?
                                  > > I don't know enough about it! Oh wait. There is a bit of what I
                                  > remembered of tantrism in the Ultschen thing.
                                  >
                                  > Admittedly I know too little about any of it... as a matter of fact
                                  > almost nothing, so perhaps my seeing Tantrism was way off orbit. I
                                  > actually saw the Ultschen rituals as analgous to the Black Mass, and
                                  > thought tantrism more in the practice of Shakrian. Again, though, my
                                  > lack of understanding leaves me to creating links without adequite
                                  > anchors.
                                  >
                                  > The whole concept of Telos also eluded me, and still does. Is not Telos
                                  > 'the final end', or merely a stepping stone to a higher plane of
                                  > experience/existance? In some ways I saw Telos as the final binding of
                                  > all concepts into a single archetype... which I think would be rather
                                  > boring in the end if everything is One, while the oblivion of the
                                  > Ultschen was just another avenue to the same goal: Unity of Archetypes
                                  > through anihillation - again, rather boring in the end since everything
                                  > is gone.
                                  >
                                  > Nukiel saw Telos in the singularity, but then so did the Ultschen...
                                  > so... I'm confused there.
                                  >
                                  > Oh! A question & point of continuity:
                                  > Why was Nukiel not rescued? The Suneater bounced everything out of its
                                  > energy sink - the asteroids and the ships that undocked, but not the
                                  > defunct battlecruiser? If I remember correctly the energy sink was two
                                  > light hours in radius, but the suneater was considerably further from
                                  > the star & singularity otherwise the supernova would have overcome it in
                                  > a matter of seconds, not hours... correct?
                                  >
                                  > Curious as ever,
                                  > Ryx.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ================================
                                  > Unsubscribe address: exordium-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > ChrisW's Exordium webpage: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordium.htm
                                  > Exordium-L webpage: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordiuml.htm
                                  > Exordium-L FAQ: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordiuml.txt
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  --
                                  Dave Trowbridge
                                  The Redwood Dragon
                                  http://www.davetrowbridge.com/MT
                                  davetrow@...


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ryx
                                  ... Hmm, a sentance of diologue or two might clarify that... but you could always put it down later when he mysteriously reappears after being rescued by
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 1, 2006
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                                    Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                    > Telos is pretty much the Teilhardian Omega Point (
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_point).
                                    >
                                    > Nukiel was rescued, but we didn't mention it in the book. I believe he has a
                                    > role going forward as a kind of blind seer or something.

                                    Hmm, a sentance of diologue or two might clarify that... but you could
                                    always put it down later when he mysteriously 'reappears' after being
                                    rescued by some minor ship... but every read from the second time on has
                                    always left me with that niggling little quandry in my head.
                                    As for a 'role going forward'... in what book(s)???

                                    > The Suneater was within a few light minutes of the supernova, but was not
                                    > damaged by it. Remember the bit with the female marine and Ivard at the very
                                    > end?

                                    Oh, *YES* I remember it! And I always want to know more... more and
                                    more about what happened! Did Ivard completely loose his 'self' in
                                    becoming one with whatever Urian coms tech he stepped into and mastered?
                                    And the marine... how did the Jaspar avatar have a /clue/ that the
                                    station had a use for her after all was said and done? She was snatched
                                    away from Anaris *before* (by over an hour) Ivard got into the beam.

                                    The suneater's entire function was to do just what it did and survive.
                                    Considering, in my belief, that it was some sort of prizon for one of
                                    those beings that the Ur fought and failed against, as they came from
                                    the center of the galaxy where the ravening power of dying matter is as
                                    prevalent as our own atmosphere on earth. It was freed to return to
                                    wherever through the portal of the new 'vortex' the suneater created in
                                    the center of the singularity.

                                    The question stands: Are there other suneaters trapped in
                                    unapproachable orbits around the many other black holes that make up the
                                    rift (would anyone even bother looking since they can't be approached?).
                                    There were no other supernovae in the rift (mentioned, at least), so
                                    the destructive path of that suneater was different, or it/they had not
                                    had a binary system to work with around other stars it/they destroyed.
                                    As a supernova is no small thing (hundreds or thousands of light years
                                    in extent and filled with hard radioactive gasses for millions of years)
                                    you'd think that they'd kinda notice if there were more than 1 or 2
                                    spanning the Rift.

                                    Jeeze, every time I read these books I just have more questions. *LAUGH*

                                    One day I'll have to turn your attention to the Shiidra... your truths
                                    and my suppositions.

                                    Happy New year,
                                    good luck on the deadlines and writing!

                                    Ryx.
                                  • Douglas McNeil
                                    ... Although there s certainly a Taoist flavour, such as the Polarities, it seems to me that the real meat of the philosophy underlying the Panarchy is that of
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 1, 2006
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                                      Ryx wrote:

                                      > The Taoistic outlook mystified me the first two times, I realized it was
                                      > there the third time and actually figured out what it was[..]

                                      Although there's certainly a Taoist flavour, such as the Polarities, it
                                      seems to me that the real meat of the philosophy underlying the Panarchy
                                      is that of Confucius. So much so that the books (with some judicious
                                      bowdlerization) could be used as texts. I think the last time this came
                                      up Dave and Sherwood said the influence wasn't direct, but the connections
                                      are there nonetheless..

                                      From this perspective, the saga is a study in the working out of a change
                                      in the Mandate of Heaven. A Confucian empire falls into Legalism at the
                                      highest levels, inspiring rebellions and attacks by Mohists on the one
                                      hand and barbarians on the other. The heir refounds the dynasty by
                                      returning to the Songs with motifs taken from the best of the barbarians.

                                      (Actually, there's an interesting story in there somewhere, about how my
                                      love for a Confucian space opera written by a liberal Episcopalian helped
                                      turn me into a conservative Roman Catholic.. but an off-topic one. :)


                                      Doug
                                    • Tony Zbaraschuk
                                      ... Interesting. I d certainly read his final scene as farewell, I m dying , which seemed to fit in with all his previous foreshadowings. Oh, well, might be
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 4, 2006
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                                        On Sat, Dec 31, 2005 at 09:26:15PM -0800, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                        > Nukiel was rescued, but we didn't mention it in the book. I believe he has a
                                        > role going forward as a kind of blind seer or something.

                                        Interesting. I'd certainly read his final scene as "farewell, I'm
                                        dying", which seemed to fit in with all his previous foreshadowings.
                                        Oh, well, might be interesting to see what happens next with him.

                                        I suppose if you still wanted to kill him, you could say that his
                                        ship blew up before the Suneater bounced everyone away.


                                        Tony Z


                                        --
                                        Despair was kudzu.
                                        --_Atlanta Nights_, Travis Tea
                                      • Dave Trowbridge
                                        I hereby rule it not off-topic. Please tell us more! BTW, this half of the author duo, once a liberal Episcopalian, is now a Quaker. ... Dave Trowbridge The
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 4, 2006
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                                          I hereby rule it not off-topic. Please tell us more!

                                          BTW, this half of the author duo, once a liberal Episcopalian, is now a
                                          Quaker.

                                          On 1/1/06, Douglas McNeil <mcneil@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > (Actually, there's an interesting story in there somewhere, about how my
                                          > love for a Confucian space opera written by a liberal Episcopalian helped
                                          > turn me into a conservative Roman Catholic.. but an off-topic one. :)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          Dave Trowbridge
                                          The Redwood Dragon
                                          http://www.davetrowbridge.com/MT
                                          davetrow@...
                                          *************************
                                          "Lord, if I be not a knife among the utensils of the spiritual house, make
                                          me a whetstone."
                                          John Rutty,18th Century Quaker


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Cindy Williams
                                          BTW, this half of the author duo, once a liberal Episcopalian, is now a Quaker. Well now, there s a statement and half, enough to bring me out
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 4, 2006
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                                            <snip> BTW, this half of the author duo, once a
                                            liberal Episcopalian, is now a Quaker. <snip>

                                            Well now, there's a statement and half, enough to
                                            bring me out of a long long lurkdom.

                                            Cindy W in Ky, liberal Epicopalian turned Wiccan




                                            __________________________________________
                                            Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
                                            Just $16.99/mo. or less.
                                            dsl.yahoo.com
                                          • Dave Trowbridge
                                            The aftermath of a supernove is a nebula, and after a few years, not particularly dangerous, I think. I m sure there must be others. No, Ivard doesn t lose
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 4, 2006
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                                              The aftermath of a supernove is a nebula, and after a few years, not
                                              particularly dangerous, I think. I'm sure there must be others.

                                              No, Ivard doesn't lose himself. In fact, about 400 years later he wrote a
                                              book about humanity's initial contact with the Kelley 300 years before the
                                              time of Exordium, that I hope to offer one day as Third Contact. It begins
                                              thus:

                                              The starship was vast, both by human and by Kelly standards, and the shell
                                              of light pulsing outward from its point of emergence was correspondingly
                                              bright. But those who crewed it knew themselves invisible, high above the
                                              ecliptic of Ndigwe System, a knowledge both comfortable and anxious.

                                              The etiquette of approach to an inhabited planet in a vessel fitted with a
                                              fiveskip is a demanding one. Commit the solecism of emerging from fivespace
                                              too close and expiation will follow swiftly, enforced by heavy weapons.
                                              Equally offensive, if less obvious, is emergence too far away, outside the
                                              zones prescribed by law, where one's invisibility invites suspicion of one's
                                              motives.

                                              Now, you may think you know the motives of this crew, for all that seven
                                              centuries have passed. The story of first contact with the Kelly is an
                                              oft-told tale. Or perhaps you are very young, or from far away beyond the
                                              Rift, and no one has yet told you the story of the girl, the Pontifex, and
                                              the Blessed Three, a triptych like the Kelly themselves.

                                              No matter. Were you older than Tate Kaga himself, still would I tell you,
                                              you have never truly heard the story. There is no one, has never been one,
                                              who can tell it truly. Not even I.

                                              The same, of course, can be said of any tale, for the only true speech of a
                                              story is the lives of those who lived it. So I will continue. What the girl
                                              knew, who became the true Pontifex, she told no one, sparing humankind the
                                              knowledge of its insignificance. But now Fifth Contact is upon us, and we
                                              need humility, lest we misjudge this new race as drastically as we did the
                                              Kelly. I must continue.

                                              There is certainly no one else who can tell it. No human, as I began, for
                                              how could any of such a monosensuous race describe the multisensory dance of
                                              that ancient, triune race? Nor any trinity, for not even the million-year
                                              wisdom of the Kelly can truly discern the human heart.

                                              Do you think me proud? You do not yet know me well enough to make such a
                                              judgment. I merely state a fact, as I might state my age and my condition,
                                              which are mere accidents of genetics, although not those I was born with.

                                              But even my words are merely breath upon a mirror, dimming it. They are but
                                              wind. Wind from wind, faintly revealing Third Contact. So we will leave that
                                              night-black ship and its strange crew for now and begin instead with
                                              laughter, the divine wind, an unexpected gift that finally enabled each race
                                              to see its soul in the other's mirror.

                                              I was three hundred years unborn that spring dawn, yet I can see Islay
                                              laughing, there on the Sculpture Path in the heart of Ndigwe Polyscholium.
                                              See her, smell her, taste her, vivid and immediate, not a faded report of
                                              voice and image crystallized in silicon. Did you know, the Kelly have no
                                              ghosts? What room for revenants in a biology Lamarck foreshadowed only
                                              faintly? There personality becomes genetic, and death is not what humans
                                              know. Islay walks among them to this day in the scented anamnesis of their
                                              fleshy ribbons, for all that her clay rests in the Shrine of the Blessed
                                              Three, and thus I am child to her.

                                              She stands there, hands on hips, head thrown back, full-throated alto
                                              merriment pealing from her throat. She might be alone, so little does her
                                              posture hint at the throng of students hurrying past her to the Convocation.
                                              Like a rock in a heedless stream she divides them; none of them laugh with
                                              her and only a few cast harried glances at their fellow before vanishing
                                              inside the towering Kamera.

                                              * * *

                                              That I myself remember, though it was not I who experienced it but my
                                              noumenal symbiont, the Kelly Archon, an indwelling fire with memories a
                                              million years old. There is much else in this tale, drawn from merely human
                                              memory, monochrome against Kelly splendor, like the ancient vids from Lost
                                              Earth. But then, whatever your conditions, you are human. The Shiidra, First
                                              Contact, would neither endure nor understand this story; the Guardian,
                                              Second Contact, is long dead. The Kelly, Third Contact, preserve the story
                                              in their very flesh, and the Eeya'a, Fourth Contact, know it through their
                                              unlikely coupling with that triune race. It will suffice....


                                              On 1/1/06, Ryx <larkshadow@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                              > > Telos is pretty much the Teilhardian Omega Point (
                                              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_point).
                                              > >
                                              > > Nukiel was rescued, but we didn't mention it in the book. I believe he
                                              > has a
                                              > > role going forward as a kind of blind seer or something.
                                              >
                                              > Hmm, a sentance of diologue or two might clarify that... but you could
                                              > always put it down later when he mysteriously 'reappears' after being
                                              > rescued by some minor ship... but every read from the second time on has
                                              > always left me with that niggling little quandry in my head.
                                              > As for a 'role going forward'... in what book(s)???
                                              >
                                              > > The Suneater was within a few light minutes of the supernova, but was
                                              > not
                                              > > damaged by it. Remember the bit with the female marine and Ivard at the
                                              > very
                                              > > end?
                                              >
                                              > Oh, *YES* I remember it! And I always want to know more... more and
                                              > more about what happened! Did Ivard completely loose his 'self' in
                                              > becoming one with whatever Urian coms tech he stepped into and mastered?
                                              > And the marine... how did the Jaspar avatar have a /clue/ that the
                                              > station had a use for her after all was said and done? She was snatched
                                              > away from Anaris *before* (by over an hour) Ivard got into the beam.
                                              >
                                              > The suneater's entire function was to do just what it did and survive.
                                              > Considering, in my belief, that it was some sort of prizon for one of
                                              > those beings that the Ur fought and failed against, as they came from
                                              > the center of the galaxy where the ravening power of dying matter is as
                                              > prevalent as our own atmosphere on earth. It was freed to return to
                                              > wherever through the portal of the new 'vortex' the suneater created in
                                              > the center of the singularity.
                                              >
                                              > The question stands: Are there other suneaters trapped in
                                              > unapproachable orbits around the many other black holes that make up the
                                              > rift (would anyone even bother looking since they can't be approached?).
                                              > There were no other supernovae in the rift (mentioned, at least), so
                                              > the destructive path of that suneater was different, or it/they had not
                                              > had a binary system to work with around other stars it/they destroyed.
                                              > As a supernova is no small thing (hundreds or thousands of light years
                                              > in extent and filled with hard radioactive gasses for millions of years)
                                              > you'd think that they'd kinda notice if there were more than 1 or 2
                                              > spanning the Rift.
                                              >
                                              > Jeeze, every time I read these books I just have more questions. *LAUGH*
                                              >
                                              > One day I'll have to turn your attention to the Shiidra... your truths
                                              > and my suppositions.
                                              >
                                              > Happy New year,
                                              > good luck on the deadlines and writing!
                                              >
                                              > Ryx.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ================================
                                              > Unsubscribe address: exordium-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > ChrisW's Exordium webpage: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordium.htm
                                              > Exordium-L webpage: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordiuml.htm
                                              > Exordium-L FAQ: http://www.kentaurus.com/exordiuml.txt
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              --
                                              Dave Trowbridge
                                              The Redwood Dragon
                                              http://www.davetrowbridge.com/MT
                                              davetrow@...


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Tony Zbaraschuk
                                              ... Oh, wow -- I really really want to read the rest. I suppose it s still unwritten, though Tony Z -- Despair was kudzu. --_Atlanta Nights_,
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 5, 2006
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                                                On Wed, Jan 04, 2006 at 09:20:30PM -0800, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                                > No, Ivard doesn't lose himself. In fact, about 400 years later he wrote a
                                                > book about humanity's initial contact with the Kelley 300 years before the
                                                > time of Exordium, that I hope to offer one day as Third Contact. It begins
                                                > thus:

                                                <snip>

                                                Oh, wow -- I really really want to read the rest. I suppose it's still
                                                unwritten, though <sigh>


                                                Tony Z
                                                --
                                                Despair was kudzu.
                                                --_Atlanta Nights_, Travis Tea
                                              • Christopher Weuve
                                                ... I wondered about that, the last time I stopped by your blog. Are you still attending that wonderful little church where you were married? I guess the
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                                  On Jan 5, 2006, at 12:08 AM, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                                  > I hereby rule it not off-topic. Please tell us more!
                                                  >
                                                  > BTW, this half of the author duo, once a liberal Episcopalian, is now a
                                                  > Quaker.

                                                  I wondered about that, the last time I stopped by your blog. Are you
                                                  still attending that wonderful little church where you were married? I
                                                  guess the question I am crudely asking is whether this is a social
                                                  justice position, or is it a doctrinal change?

                                                  FWIW, in my profession (for those who don't know, I'm a naval analyst)
                                                  I get many weird looks from my colleagues in uniform (and many out of
                                                  uniform) when I express admiration for, e.g., the guy I knew in college
                                                  who was willing to go to jail rather than register for the draft,
                                                  because he believed war was wrong. (He got a suspended sentence,
                                                  IIRC.)

                                                  I don't have to see a gun to recognize courage and conviction when I
                                                  see it.



                                                  On Jan 5, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:

                                                  > On Wed, Jan 04, 2006 at 09:20:30PM -0800, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                                  >> No, Ivard doesn't lose himself. In fact, about 400 years later he
                                                  >> wrote a
                                                  >> book about humanity's initial contact with the Kelley 300 years
                                                  >> before the
                                                  >> time of Exordium, that I hope to offer one day as Third Contact. It
                                                  >> begins
                                                  >> thus:
                                                  >
                                                  > <snip>
                                                  >
                                                  > Oh, wow -- I really really want to read the rest. I suppose it's still
                                                  > unwritten, though <sigh>

                                                  Double sigh.

                                                  chrisw

                                                  Christopher Weuve [caw@...]
                                                  =================================
                                                  "Your discommodation is a facade to
                                                  protect less honourable men. It is a lie.
                                                  Lies must be challenged." -- Picard to Worf
                                                • Christopher Weuve
                                                  ... I think it is pretty clear that Nukiel *thought* he was toast. chrisw
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                                    On Jan 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:

                                                    > On Sat, Dec 31, 2005 at 09:26:15PM -0800, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                                    >> Nukiel was rescued, but we didn't mention it in the book. I believe
                                                    >> he has a
                                                    >> role going forward as a kind of blind seer or something.
                                                    >
                                                    > Interesting. I'd certainly read his final scene as "farewell, I'm
                                                    > dying", which seemed to fit in with all his previous foreshadowings.
                                                    > Oh, well, might be interesting to see what happens next with him.

                                                    I think it is pretty clear that Nukiel *thought* he was toast.

                                                    chrisw
                                                  • Dave Trowbridge
                                                    Doctrinal change, big time. The triggering event is something we can talk about in March when I come to D.C., but if you watch my blog, in a few days there
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                                      Doctrinal change, big time. The triggering event is something we can talk
                                                      about in March when I come to D.C., but if you watch my blog, in a few days
                                                      there will be a post that will hint at what's going on with me.

                                                      The attractive thing about Quakers is that, at least for the Christocentric
                                                      ones I know (which is what I am), their social justice concerns arise
                                                      naturally and inevitably out of their faith. (That's not to say that
                                                      non-Christian Quakers are any less committed; it's just that I can't judge
                                                      the source of their committment, even as I recognize its authenticity.) I've
                                                      been troubled for some time by the discord between what I read in the Bible
                                                      and what I see in the world around me, and in Quakerism I'm finding an
                                                      answer to that discord.

                                                      Another way to put it is that Quakers walk their talk. Courage and
                                                      conviction, as you say. This may sound odd, but there's a kind of
                                                      "fierceness" about Quakers that's quite appealing: because their beliefs
                                                      come from the heart (the Inward Light) and not from doctrines or external
                                                      forces, there is little or no compromise in them. They know who they are,
                                                      and it's not a path for everyone by any means. Did you know, despite their
                                                      undeniable influence, there are probably less that half a million Quakers in
                                                      the entire world?

                                                      And the stories some of the "elders" tell are astonishing. Like Ian, in his
                                                      80s now, who walked away from his position as head of a successful business
                                                      selling cartridge belts to the U.S. military on the eve of WWII because he'd
                                                      been convinced that war was wrong. (His early life is one for a story: he
                                                      was adopted by a wealthy family that later lost everything in the Crash--his
                                                      father literally jumped out a window so his wife could get the insurance
                                                      money--and many years later Ian's mother told him that his Scottish nurse,
                                                      who had brought him from Scotland at the age of 3 or so to meet his adoptive
                                                      family--he remembers the ocean liner--told his mother "Ian was born on May
                                                      29, 1918 in Shanghai, and if you ask any further questions, the deal is
                                                      off.") Ian spent the war as a CO working with retarded and insane people at
                                                      an asylum. Or Ellie and Herb, also in their 80s, who mentioned casually one
                                                      night the Quaker Meeting they'd belonged to in pre-war Vienna, a meeting
                                                      that contained both Jews and members of the Nazi Party!

                                                      No, I'm not attending St. Andrews anymore. I find Waiting Worship (silent
                                                      except for such ministries as the Light moves someone to offer) much more
                                                      empowering and authentic--no one who has experienced a "gathered meeting"
                                                      can have any doubt of the reality of what we wait for--and the Quakers have
                                                      a sense of community stronger than any I've ever encountered--without the
                                                      lockstep belief that seems to be the requirement for so many conventional
                                                      Christian churches. I still have a fondness for the Episcopal Church, but I
                                                      think its witness is trammeled by its structure--too many obstacles in the
                                                      way of the Spirit. YMMV--I do not mean to devalue any one else's spiritual
                                                      path, but this is reality for me.

                                                      In addition, Deborah finds the Meeting a much more fulfilling place to
                                                      practice her Judaism than a synagogue--and she's becoming quite an
                                                      inspiration for our Bible study group. (Her very first comment--we are
                                                      studying the Gospel of John--was "well, of course I don't believe this Son
                                                      of God stuff, but here's what this section seems to be saying as far as I'm
                                                      concerned.")

                                                      I will probably apply for membership in the Society within a few weeks, a
                                                      process which requires a number of meetings with a Clearness Committee to
                                                      help me and the Meeting discover if I'm truly ready for the committment.
                                                      Regardless of the outcome, I'm looking forward to the process.

                                                      On 1/6/06, Christopher Weuve <caw@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > On Jan 5, 2006, at 12:08 AM, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                                      > > I hereby rule it not off-topic. Please tell us more!
                                                      > >
                                                      > > BTW, this half of the author duo, once a liberal Episcopalian, is now a
                                                      > > Quaker.
                                                      >
                                                      > I wondered about that, the last time I stopped by your blog. Are you
                                                      > still attending that wonderful little church where you were married? I
                                                      > guess the question I am crudely asking is whether this is a social
                                                      > justice position, or is it a doctrinal change?
                                                      >
                                                      > FWIW, in my profession (for those who don't know, I'm a naval analyst)
                                                      > I get many weird looks from my colleagues in uniform (and many out of
                                                      > uniform) when I express admiration for, e.g., the guy I knew in college
                                                      > who was willing to go to jail rather than register for the draft,
                                                      > because he believed war was wrong. (He got a suspended sentence,
                                                      > IIRC.)
                                                      >
                                                      > I don't have to see a gun to recognize courage and conviction when I
                                                      > see it.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > On Jan 5, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > On Wed, Jan 04, 2006 at 09:20:30PM -0800, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                                      > >> No, Ivard doesn't lose himself. In fact, about 400 years later he
                                                      > >> wrote a
                                                      > >> book about humanity's initial contact with the Kelley 300 years
                                                      > >> before the
                                                      > >> time of Exordium, that I hope to offer one day as Third Contact. It
                                                      > >> begins
                                                      > >> thus:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > <snip>
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Oh, wow -- I really really want to read the rest. I suppose it's still
                                                      > > unwritten, though <sigh>
                                                      >
                                                      > Double sigh.
                                                      >
                                                      > chrisw
                                                      >
                                                      > Christopher Weuve [caw@...]
                                                      > =================================
                                                      > "Your discommodation is a facade to
                                                      > protect less honourable men. It is a lie.
                                                      > Lies must be challenged." -- Picard to Worf
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
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                                                      --
                                                      Dave Trowbridge
                                                      The Redwood Dragon
                                                      http://www.davetrowbridge.com/MT
                                                      davetrow@...


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Dave Trowbridge
                                                      He definitely did, but the Goddess has other plans for him. ... -- Dave Trowbridge The Redwood Dragon http://www.davetrowbridge.com/MT davetrow@gmail.com
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                                        He definitely did, but the Goddess has other plans for him.

                                                        On 1/6/06, Christopher Weuve <caw@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > On Jan 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > > On Sat, Dec 31, 2005 at 09:26:15PM -0800, Dave Trowbridge wrote:
                                                        > >> Nukiel was rescued, but we didn't mention it in the book. I believe
                                                        > >> he has a
                                                        > >> role going forward as a kind of blind seer or something.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Interesting. I'd certainly read his final scene as "farewell, I'm
                                                        > > dying", which seemed to fit in with all his previous foreshadowings.
                                                        > > Oh, well, might be interesting to see what happens next with him.
                                                        >
                                                        > I think it is pretty clear that Nukiel *thought* he was toast.
                                                        >
                                                        > chrisw
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
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                                                        --
                                                        Dave Trowbridge
                                                        The Redwood Dragon
                                                        http://www.davetrowbridge.com/MT
                                                        davetrow@...


                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Ryx
                                                        ... Having a gun is one of the least indicative icons of courage and bravery that might exist. Any weapon for that matter. They are crutches and props for
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 7, 2006
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                                                          > I don't have to see a gun to recognize courage and conviction when I
                                                          > see it.

                                                          Having a gun is one of the least indicative icons of courage and bravery
                                                          that might exist. Any weapon for that matter.
                                                          They are crutches and props for bravado, they give the terrified a focus
                                                          into which to put their fear, for a time, to perform tasks that would
                                                          otherwise be far beyond them.

                                                          Courage is in the unarmed doing things that even an armed man would
                                                          quail at.

                                                          One instance springs to mind:
                                                          During the LA riots there was a truck driver hauled from his vehicle and
                                                          bashed in the head with a fire extinquisher and brick, among other
                                                          things, by a mob. Despite the violence all around several people,
                                                          complete strangers to each other, stepped up and got the driver to a
                                                          hospital - as well as delivering his truck to its destination.

                                                          That is courage.

                                                          A firefighter looking at an inferno and not thinking twice about going
                                                          in armed with little more than hope.

                                                          A teacher seeing not students but modern brats spoiled by instant
                                                          gratification, first-person-shooters, and with 7 minute attention
                                                          spans... with access to guns.

                                                          Such is courage.

                                                          Is there courage on a battlefield? It's one of the best places to find
                                                          it, but a gun is not the source, the heart is.

                                                          Me,
                                                          maudlin.
                                                        • Christopher Weuve
                                                          ... In retrospect, uniform probably would have been better than gun. chrisw
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jan 8, 2006
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                                                            On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Ryx wrote:

                                                            >> I don't have to see a gun to recognize courage and conviction when I
                                                            >> see it.
                                                            >
                                                            > Having a gun is one of the least indicative icons of courage and
                                                            > bravery
                                                            > that might exist. Any weapon for that matter.

                                                            In retrospect, "uniform" probably would have been better than "gun."

                                                            chrisw
                                                          • Christopher Weuve
                                                            ... [snipping together the beginning and the end] ... I am looking forward to further reports, in whatever venue you think appropriate. [Personally, I view the
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jan 8, 2006
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                                                              On Jan 7, 2006, at 12:52 AM, Dave Trowbridge wrote:

                                                              > Doctrinal change, big time. The triggering event is something we can
                                                              > talk
                                                              > about in March when I come to D.C., but if you watch my blog, in a few
                                                              > days
                                                              > there will be a post that will hint at what's going on with me.
                                                              [snipping together the beginning and the end]
                                                              > I will probably apply for membership in the Society within a few
                                                              > weeks, a
                                                              > process which requires a number of meetings with a Clearness Committee
                                                              > to
                                                              > help me and the Meeting discover if I'm truly ready for the
                                                              > committment.
                                                              > Regardless of the outcome, I'm looking forward to the process.

                                                              I am looking forward to further reports, in whatever venue you think
                                                              appropriate.

                                                              [Personally, I view the list as an exploration of both the _Exordium_
                                                              books and the minds of the authors. Given that the list is so low
                                                              volume, I suspect that if we are good about watching our subject lines,
                                                              most of the list will be okay with that. If there is a groundswell of
                                                              discontent with that, we'll find another comm channel for this thread.]


                                                              [snip]
                                                              > Another way to put it is that Quakers walk their talk. Courage and
                                                              > conviction, as you say. This may sound odd, but there's a kind of
                                                              > "fierceness" about Quakers that's quite appealing: because their
                                                              > beliefs
                                                              > come from the heart (the Inward Light) and not from doctrines or
                                                              > external
                                                              > forces, there is little or no compromise in them. They know who they
                                                              > are,
                                                              > and it's not a path for everyone by any means. Did you know, despite
                                                              > their
                                                              > undeniable influence, there are probably less that half a million
                                                              > Quakers in
                                                              > the entire world?

                                                              I can't say that I have ever met a practicing Quaker, although I love
                                                              the oatmeal ([grin] --sorry, had to slip that in). That having been
                                                              said, I do know a few Mennonites, who are (of course) doctrinally quite
                                                              different but generally show up at the same types of political events
                                                              and cause trouble for the same political structures as the Quakers.

                                                              I am not a pacifist, for a variety of reasons, but there is something
                                                              about the Quakers I find tremendously appealing nonetheless.


                                                              > In addition, Deborah finds the Meeting a much more fulfilling place to
                                                              > practice her Judaism than a synagogue--and she's becoming quite an
                                                              > inspiration for our Bible study group. (Her very first comment--we are
                                                              > studying the Gospel of John--was "well, of course I don't believe this
                                                              > Son
                                                              > of God stuff, but here's what this section seems to be saying as far
                                                              > as I'm
                                                              > concerned.")

                                                              ROTFL!

                                                              I definitely have found John to be more interesting than the synoptics,
                                                              and have regretted the fact that I didn't take Greek in college instead
                                                              of Russian. The Greek in John is reported to be quite eloquent.

                                                              This is usually lost in English translations, except for the opening
                                                              chapter, which is usually a literal translation. I'm told the entire
                                                              book reads like that in the original.

                                                              Dave, of course, knows all of this, as John 1:1 reads: "In the
                                                              beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was
                                                              God."


                                                              chrisw

                                                              Christopher Weuve [caw@...]
                                                              ============================================
                                                              President, Rhode Island Chapter
                                                              Dietrich Bonhoeffer Cult of the Personality
                                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonhoeffer
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