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RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason

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  • james tan
    eduard, thanks for sharing ur views. james. From: eduard Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE:
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
      eduard,

      thanks for sharing ur views.

      james.


      From: eduard <yeoman@...>
      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason
      Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:48:45 -0400

      james,

      I find it amazing that we are still speaking of
      Hitler as the "killer". Not "a" killer, but "the"
      killer". The holocaust was not the product of one
      man, but of a society that sought to eliminate
      what was seen as an alien element in their midst.
      Hitler [and I am not being apologetic about him]
      was a catalyst or perhaps a focal point for action
      that was acceptable to the German society. What
      Hitler did was to say that it was Ok to kill the
      Jews. There is always some propensity to take
      violent action within a society, but normally the
      leadership tries to maintain a higher course.
      Sort of, to keep a lid on things. Hitler not only
      took the lid off, but threw it away.

      I think that an individual killer works in the
      same way. All of us have a bit of a dark side,
      and would take some direct action if given the
      opportunity and social approval. I am not
      suggesting that we are all killers at the bottom.
      I would love to express some harsh words at the
      clerk who just throws my change at me ... but I
      don't do it because of the scene it might make.
      It takes a special type of person to kill and that
      is due to a lot of other factors.

      In a crowd of people [e.g. a riot] there is a
      perception of approval or at least an absence of
      immediate disapproval. In such a situation that
      special person will kill.

      I think the same thing happens even when an
      individual is not part of a crowd. A killer tends
      to be a loner, in the sense that he/she reduces
      his/her society to only a few individuals ...
      which obviously includes the victim. In such a
      reduced society, it is easy for the individual to
      come to the conclusion that there is an approval.
      In fact, the only one who might be seen a voicing
      an objection is the victim, but since the victim
      is the target, their objection can be discounted.
      It is only when the killer is arrested that they
      are made aware that there is a larger society that
      disapproves.

      As to the WTC incident, I can see those that took
      over the aircraft as being able to isolate
      themselves from the world around them and the
      passengers in the aircraft. They most certainly
      had been primed to think of those others as
      somehow alien to their own perspective. Within
      their own reduced society fostered by Osama ben
      Ladin they have both opportunity and approval.

      Which a long way around to say that I agree with
      you ... that people don't kill out of fear. It is
      done in a clear and rational manner.

      eduard

      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 8:20 AM
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason

      u said:
      "Killers are always misguided because they are
      always proceeding from
      the motive of fear. "

      gee, maybe i am reading u out of context; but what
      u said about fear being
      the one and only reason for killer to kill
      is...just not true. while some
      may kill out of fear, there are others who kill
      because it serves their
      agenda, and can do so without any fear or losing
      nerve. killing can be just
      expedient, if it is well planned - just like a
      chess move where one has to
      'kill'. killers are not always misguided.

      james.

      From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
      Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:06:10 +0100

      At 12:48 pm +0000 26/9/02, swmaerske wrote:
      >Sometimes the killer may just be sadistic or
      crazy or both.
      >Sometimes, too, the killer may be misguided,
      e.g., Hitler's view that
      >the Jews represented an organic threat to the
      purity of the "Aryan
      >race", culture and civilization.

      Killers are always misguided because they are
      always proceeding from
      the motive of fear. While it is perfectly easy to
      understand people
      who act from the motive of fear - and we have all
      no doubt had first
      hand experience of this - it is never necessary.

      This is the most unfortunate consequence of an
      ethical system that
      places the survival of the individual uppermost.

      Tommy




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    • Charles
      eduard, I am not advocating a constant state of war; I am not the lawyer of becoming , which is the continuous struggle of one man against another; it is the
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
        eduard,

        I am not advocating a constant state of war;
        I am not the lawyer of "becoming", which is
        the continuous
        struggle of one man against another; it is
        the law of nature ( a continuous current of
        electricity without
        interference of space or time?) Hostile is
        nature, hostile is wisdom herself, hostile is
        life. The contemporary
        state of confusion in this respect is a
        simple example. Peace, on the other hand, is
        just an empty and
        meaningless word like justice and freedom, no
        to mention equality. And the character of a
        nation can be
        judged by the way they manage to survive, and
        more importantly, by the way they treat the
        delicacy,
        fineness, and pleasant appearance of the
        female of the species. (call me old fashion.)

        Charles

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:44 PM
        Subject: [existlist] war and peace


        Charles,

        <<< (peace is the hidding place of the weak
        and
        efeminate).>>>

        I presume that you are advocating a constant
        state
        of war; to make us strong and manly. Or have
        I
        mis-interpreted??

        eduard


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      • eduard
        Charles, I am not understanding. On the one hand you are stating that, Hostile is nature, hostile is wisdom herself, hostile is life. And yet on the other
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
          Charles,

          I am not understanding.

          On the one hand you are stating that, "Hostile is
          nature, hostile is wisdom herself, hostile is
          life."

          And yet on the other you mention that, "And the
          character of a nation can be judged by the way
          they manage to survive, and
          more importantly, by the way they treat the
          delicacy, fineness, and pleasant appearance of the
          female of the species."

          The two would seem to be contradictory. Hostility
          in life is represented by the abusive manner in
          which we treat others. A proper treatment of
          women is inherent in a peaceful society. Although
          we tend to think that there is progress in war
          years because of the development of military
          weapons that are later applied to civil use, the
          truth is that in times of peace there is also
          advancement which sustains a society.

          Although the word "peace" is abstract, in the same
          sense as "justice" and "freedom", the state of
          peace itself is not empty and meaningless. Rather
          it is the normal condition of man which is often
          interrupted by war.

          eduard
        • Bill Harris
          Charles, I really like what you say. Having said that I must sulk off in guilt for rejecting the better angels I was brainwashed to accept. Were there a
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
            Charles, I really like what you say. Having said that I must sulk off in
            guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was brainwashed to accept.
            Were there a hell, the Spartans would certainly be there and they would be
            enjoying it immensely. They would be joined by republicans, nazis,
            confederates, Romans and other male dominated associations. The murderous
            mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game of king of the hill. I would
            like to be there myself because it is so simple and honest. It is the life
            of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in one`s own behalf, is at the
            clean base of existence. Feel the power of the wvermaxct in public
            gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing, drinking and a sound sleep with
            one`s comrades.
            Now it is back to the created reality of our present. I should smile and
            assent to the weak madness of the girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
            and work endlessly to help the weak and oppressed. I should act like a
            fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be quiet, and respect the rights
            others have not earned, OR-----
            I should live in this dichotomous world, without direction. Bill
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason


            > Bill,
            >
            > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
            > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has to
            > be a brave stupid.
            > All this is about politics; a radical
            > Democrat like yourself could start by
            > explaining to me the differences
            > between the two main polical parties in this
            > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
            > go to hell. ("war
            > is the father of all and king of all"). Even
            > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
            > marriage or personal
            > relatioships, means a constant reasurance for
            > superiority, for being in power, for getting
            > the upper hand,
            > for being better than others, for WAR. (peace
            > is the hidding place of the weak and
            > efeminate).
            >
            > Charles
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Bill Harris"
            > <valleywestdental@...>
            > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
            > Reason
            >
            >
            > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
            > matter what. In a lifetime it is
            > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are a
            > coward, Right?
            > The Spartans would give up their marriage
            > bed to a man of greater worth as
            > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep, you
            > cant just fuck and fight. War
            > can come at night and kill you when your
            > sword is sheathed. Were you a
            > warrior with that death? Bill
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
            > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
            > Reason
            >
            >
            > > Bill,
            > >
            > > War is what life is all about. You still
            > seem
            > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
            > Repubilc
            > > of the philosopher
            > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
            > stupid
            > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
            > > enjoys the comforts of
            > > his own possessions and riches, while
            > > preaching poverty in front of the
            > parliament
            > > or congress. ( I might just
            > > as well become a Catholic priest). A little
            > > sense of history might do the trick.
            > >
            > > Charles
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Bill Harris"
            > > <valleywestdental@...>
            > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
            > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
            > > Reason
            > >
            > >
            > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
            > will
            > > we have a war on stupidity?
            > > Bill
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
            > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
            > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
            > > Reason
            > >
            > >
            > > > Bill,
            > > >
            > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
            > > >
            > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
            > > interesting to
            > > > note that the North was not that keen on
            > > freeing
            > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost did
            > > them in.
            > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
            > the
            > > cause
            > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
            > > thereabouts.
            > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
            > any
            > > > segment of society never works out.
            > > Slavery had
            > > > been long shown to financially
            > > disadvantageous,
            > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
            > then
            > > it is
            > > > difficult to see one's way to getting rid
            > > of it.
            > > > The same could be said for the cultural
            > > mind-set
            > > > which is being generated in the so-called
            > > war on
            > > > terrorism.
            > > >
            > > > eduard
            > > >
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: Bill Harris
            > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
            > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01 AM
            > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
            > > Reason
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > James, I recently finished my third
            > viewing
            > > of Ken
            > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
            > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
            > > great many
            > > > thoughts.
            > > > i tend to think tt confederates are more
            > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
            > > > anything. their strong, intense
            > background
            > > their
            > > > whole lives in radical,
            > > > slave owning states is also a major
            > > contributing
            > > > factor. it is a closed,
            > > > secessionist society they live in, and
            > > > rebellious slave owning is their
            > > > only world, and their whole world.
            > > > There is no moral justification for war,
            > > there is
            > > > propaganda to fuel the
            > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
            > > survivalist,
            > > > bottom line enterprise of
            > > > death. Bill
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Our Home:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
            > > more.)
            > > >
            > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
            > > email to:
            > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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            > >
            > >
            >
            >
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            >
          • Charles
            ... From: Bill Harris To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bill Harris"
              <valleywestdental@...>
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
              Reason


              Charles, I really like what you say. Having
              said that I must sulk off in
              guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was
              brainwashed to accept.
              Were there a hell, the Spartans would
              certainly be there and they would be
              enjoying it immensely. They would be joined
              by republicans, nazis,
              confederates, Romans and other male dominated
              associations. The murderous
              mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game
              of king of the hill. I would
              like to be there myself because it is so
              simple and honest. It is the life
              of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in
              one`s own behalf, is at the
              clean base of existence. Feel the power of
              the wvermaxct in public
              gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing,
              drinking and a sound sleep with
              one`s comrades.
              Now it is back to the created reality of our
              present. I should smile and
              assent to the weak madness of the
              girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
              and work endlessly to help the weak and
              oppressed. I should act like a
              fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be
              quiet, and respect the rights
              others have not earned, OR-----
              I should live in this dichotomous world,
              without direction. Bill
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
              Reason


              > Bill,
              >
              > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
              > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has
              to
              > be a brave stupid.
              > All this is about politics; a radical
              > Democrat like yourself could start by
              > explaining to me the differences
              > between the two main polical parties in
              this
              > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
              > go to hell. ("war
              > is the father of all and king of all").
              Even
              > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
              > marriage or personal
              > relatioships, means a constant reasurance
              for
              > superiority, for being in power, for
              getting
              > the upper hand,
              > for being better than others, for WAR.
              (peace
              > is the hidding place of the weak and
              > efeminate).
              >
              > Charles
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Bill Harris"
              > <valleywestdental@...>
              > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
              > Reason
              >
              >
              > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
              > matter what. In a lifetime it is
              > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are
              a
              > coward, Right?
              > The Spartans would give up their marriage
              > bed to a man of greater worth as
              > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep,
              you
              > cant just fuck and fight. War
              > can come at night and kill you when your
              > sword is sheathed. Were you a
              > warrior with that death? Bill
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
              > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
              > Reason
              >
              >
              > > Bill,
              > >
              > > War is what life is all about. You still
              > seem
              > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
              > Repubilc
              > > of the philosopher
              > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
              > stupid
              > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
              > > enjoys the comforts of
              > > his own possessions and riches, while
              > > preaching poverty in front of the
              > parliament
              > > or congress. ( I might just
              > > as well become a Catholic priest). A
              little
              > > sense of history might do the trick.
              > >
              > > Charles
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Bill Harris"
              > > <valleywestdental@...>
              > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
              > > Reason
              > >
              > >
              > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
              > will
              > > we have a war on stupidity?
              > > Bill
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
              > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
              > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
              > > Reason
              > >
              > >
              > > > Bill,
              > > >
              > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
              > > >
              > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
              > > interesting to
              > > > note that the North was not that keen
              on
              > > freeing
              > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost
              did
              > > them in.
              > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
              > the
              > > cause
              > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
              > > thereabouts.
              > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
              > any
              > > > segment of society never works out.
              > > Slavery had
              > > > been long shown to financially
              > > disadvantageous,
              > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
              > then
              > > it is
              > > > difficult to see one's way to getting
              rid
              > > of it.
              > > > The same could be said for the cultural
              > > mind-set
              > > > which is being generated in the
              so-called
              > > war on
              > > > terrorism.
              > > >
              > > > eduard
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Bill Harris
              > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
              > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01
              AM
              > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing
              and
              > > Reason
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > James, I recently finished my third
              > viewing
              > > of Ken
              > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
              > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
              > > great many
              > > > thoughts.
              > > > i tend to think tt confederates are
              more
              > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
              > > > anything. their strong, intense
              > background
              > > their
              > > > whole lives in radical,
              > > > slave owning states is also a major
              > > contributing
              > > > factor. it is a closed,
              > > > secessionist society they live in, and
              > > > rebellious slave owning is their
              > > > only world, and their whole world.
              > > > There is no moral justification for
              war,
              > > there is
              > > > propaganda to fuel the
              > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
              > > survivalist,
              > > > bottom line enterprise of
              > > > death. Bill
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Our Home:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              > > > (Includes community book list, chat,
              and
              > > more.)
              > > >
              > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
              > > email to:
              > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
              > >
              > > Our Home:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
              > > more.)
              > >
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              > email
              > > to:
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            • Charles
              Bill, You are right. You should be quiet and respect the rights others have not earned. Or you could be like a Spartan, and go to heaven. ( and don t forget
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
                Bill,

                You are right. You should be quiet and
                respect the rights others have not earned. Or
                you could be like a
                Spartan, and go to heaven. ( and don't forget
                eduard).

                Charles


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bill Harris"
                <valleywestdental@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                Reason


                Charles, I really like what you say. Having
                said that I must sulk off in
                guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was
                brainwashed to accept.
                Were there a hell, the Spartans would
                certainly be there and they would be
                enjoying it immensely. They would be joined
                by republicans, nazis,
                confederates, Romans and other male dominated
                associations. The murderous
                mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game
                of king of the hill. I would
                like to be there myself because it is so
                simple and honest. It is the life
                of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in
                one`s own behalf, is at the
                clean base of existence. Feel the power of
                the wvermaxct in public
                gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing,
                drinking and a sound sleep with
                one`s comrades.
                Now it is back to the created reality of our
                present. I should smile and
                assent to the weak madness of the
                girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                and work endlessly to help the weak and
                oppressed. I should act like a
                fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be
                quiet, and respect the rights
                others have not earned, OR-----
                I should live in this dichotomous world,
                without direction. Bill
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                Reason


                > Bill,
                >
                > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has
                to
                > be a brave stupid.
                > All this is about politics; a radical
                > Democrat like yourself could start by
                > explaining to me the differences
                > between the two main polical parties in
                this
                > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                > go to hell. ("war
                > is the father of all and king of all").
                Even
                > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                > marriage or personal
                > relatioships, means a constant reasurance
                for
                > superiority, for being in power, for
                getting
                > the upper hand,
                > for being better than others, for WAR.
                (peace
                > is the hidding place of the weak and
                > efeminate).
                >
                > Charles
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Bill Harris"
                > <valleywestdental@...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                > Reason
                >
                >
                > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are
                a
                > coward, Right?
                > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                > bed to a man of greater worth as
                > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep,
                you
                > cant just fuck and fight. War
                > can come at night and kill you when your
                > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                > warrior with that death? Bill
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                > Reason
                >
                >
                > > Bill,
                > >
                > > War is what life is all about. You still
                > seem
                > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                > Repubilc
                > > of the philosopher
                > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                > stupid
                > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                > > enjoys the comforts of
                > > his own possessions and riches, while
                > > preaching poverty in front of the
                > parliament
                > > or congress. ( I might just
                > > as well become a Catholic priest). A
                little
                > > sense of history might do the trick.
                > >
                > > Charles
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Bill Harris"
                > > <valleywestdental@...>
                > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                > > Reason
                > >
                > >
                > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                > will
                > > we have a war on stupidity?
                > > Bill
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                > > Reason
                > >
                > >
                > > > Bill,
                > > >
                > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                > > >
                > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                > > interesting to
                > > > note that the North was not that keen
                on
                > > freeing
                > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost
                did
                > > them in.
                > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                > the
                > > cause
                > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                > > thereabouts.
                > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                > any
                > > > segment of society never works out.
                > > Slavery had
                > > > been long shown to financially
                > > disadvantageous,
                > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                > then
                > > it is
                > > > difficult to see one's way to getting
                rid
                > > of it.
                > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                > > mind-set
                > > > which is being generated in the
                so-called
                > > war on
                > > > terrorism.
                > > >
                > > > eduard
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: Bill Harris
                > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01
                AM
                > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing
                and
                > > Reason
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > James, I recently finished my third
                > viewing
                > > of Ken
                > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                > > great many
                > > > thoughts.
                > > > i tend to think tt confederates are
                more
                > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                > > > anything. their strong, intense
                > background
                > > their
                > > > whole lives in radical,
                > > > slave owning states is also a major
                > > contributing
                > > > factor. it is a closed,
                > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                > > > only world, and their whole world.
                > > > There is no moral justification for
                war,
                > > there is
                > > > propaganda to fuel the
                > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                > > survivalist,
                > > > bottom line enterprise of
                > > > death. Bill
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
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                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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                and
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              • Bill Harris
                Charles, Do not go quietly into that good night Bill ... From: Charles To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 3, 2002
                  Charles,"Do not go quietly into that good night" Bill
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:48 PM
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason


                  > Bill,
                  >
                  > You are right. You should be quiet and
                  > respect the rights others have not earned. Or
                  > you could be like a
                  > Spartan, and go to heaven. ( and don't forget
                  > eduard).
                  >
                  > Charles
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Bill Harris"
                  > <valleywestdental@...>
                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > Reason
                  >
                  >
                  > Charles, I really like what you say. Having
                  > said that I must sulk off in
                  > guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was
                  > brainwashed to accept.
                  > Were there a hell, the Spartans would
                  > certainly be there and they would be
                  > enjoying it immensely. They would be joined
                  > by republicans, nazis,
                  > confederates, Romans and other male dominated
                  > associations. The murderous
                  > mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game
                  > of king of the hill. I would
                  > like to be there myself because it is so
                  > simple and honest. It is the life
                  > of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in
                  > one`s own behalf, is at the
                  > clean base of existence. Feel the power of
                  > the wvermaxct in public
                  > gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing,
                  > drinking and a sound sleep with
                  > one`s comrades.
                  > Now it is back to the created reality of our
                  > present. I should smile and
                  > assent to the weak madness of the
                  > girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                  > and work endlessly to help the weak and
                  > oppressed. I should act like a
                  > fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be
                  > quiet, and respect the rights
                  > others have not earned, OR-----
                  > I should live in this dichotomous world,
                  > without direction. Bill
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > Reason
                  >
                  >
                  > > Bill,
                  > >
                  > > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                  > > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has
                  > to
                  > > be a brave stupid.
                  > > All this is about politics; a radical
                  > > Democrat like yourself could start by
                  > > explaining to me the differences
                  > > between the two main polical parties in
                  > this
                  > > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                  > > go to hell. ("war
                  > > is the father of all and king of all").
                  > Even
                  > > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                  > > marriage or personal
                  > > relatioships, means a constant reasurance
                  > for
                  > > superiority, for being in power, for
                  > getting
                  > > the upper hand,
                  > > for being better than others, for WAR.
                  > (peace
                  > > is the hidding place of the weak and
                  > > efeminate).
                  > >
                  > > Charles
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Bill Harris"
                  > > <valleywestdental@...>
                  > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > > Reason
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                  > > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                  > > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are
                  > a
                  > > coward, Right?
                  > > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                  > > bed to a man of greater worth as
                  > > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep,
                  > you
                  > > cant just fuck and fight. War
                  > > can come at night and kill you when your
                  > > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                  > > warrior with that death? Bill
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                  > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > > Reason
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Bill,
                  > > >
                  > > > War is what life is all about. You still
                  > > seem
                  > > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                  > > Repubilc
                  > > > of the philosopher
                  > > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                  > > stupid
                  > > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                  > > > enjoys the comforts of
                  > > > his own possessions and riches, while
                  > > > preaching poverty in front of the
                  > > parliament
                  > > > or congress. ( I might just
                  > > > as well become a Catholic priest). A
                  > little
                  > > > sense of history might do the trick.
                  > > >
                  > > > Charles
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "Bill Harris"
                  > > > <valleywestdental@...>
                  > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                  > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > > > Reason
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                  > > will
                  > > > we have a war on stupidity?
                  > > > Bill
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                  > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                  > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > > > Reason
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > Bill,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                  > > > interesting to
                  > > > > note that the North was not that keen
                  > on
                  > > > freeing
                  > > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost
                  > did
                  > > > them in.
                  > > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                  > > the
                  > > > cause
                  > > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                  > > > thereabouts.
                  > > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                  > > any
                  > > > > segment of society never works out.
                  > > > Slavery had
                  > > > > been long shown to financially
                  > > > disadvantageous,
                  > > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                  > > then
                  > > > it is
                  > > > > difficult to see one's way to getting
                  > rid
                  > > > of it.
                  > > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                  > > > mind-set
                  > > > > which is being generated in the
                  > so-called
                  > > > war on
                  > > > > terrorism.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > eduard
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > From: Bill Harris
                  > > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                  > > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01
                  > AM
                  > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing
                  > and
                  > > > Reason
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > James, I recently finished my third
                  > > viewing
                  > > > of Ken
                  > > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                  > > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                  > > > great many
                  > > > > thoughts.
                  > > > > i tend to think tt confederates are
                  > more
                  > > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                  > > > > anything. their strong, intense
                  > > background
                  > > > their
                  > > > > whole lives in radical,
                  > > > > slave owning states is also a major
                  > > > contributing
                  > > > > factor. it is a closed,
                  > > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                  > > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                  > > > > only world, and their whole world.
                  > > > > There is no moral justification for
                  > war,
                  > > > there is
                  > > > > propaganda to fuel the
                  > > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                  > > > survivalist,
                  > > > > bottom line enterprise of
                  > > > > death. Bill
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Our Home:
                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > > > > (Includes community book list, chat,
                  > and
                  > > > more.)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                  > > > email to:
                  > > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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                  > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                  > > > more.)
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                  > > > to:
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                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
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                  > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                  > > more.)
                  > > >
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                  > > email to:
                  > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
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                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
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                • james tan
                  the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why this particular
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 9, 2002
                    "the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality"


                    ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why this
                    particular morality. i know tt morality theory is to help making moral
                    decision. pretty obvious, isnt it?

                    james.


                    From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                    Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                    Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:06:51 -0700

                    James said:
                    >>the
                    question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.<<

                    Obviously, to make moral decisions.


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: james tan
                    Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:48 AM
                    To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason


                    chris said:
                    "if he had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                    resolvable through a rational method of decision."

                    but this begs the question. it is not so much tt sartre did not think of the
                    consequences as in what kind of consequences one wants, which bring us back
                    to values. and if there is such a thing as a consequentialist morality, the
                    question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.

                    james.

                    From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                    Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                    Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:48:24 -0700

                    It is also noteworthy that Sartre considers the problem from essentially
                    only a deontological point of view. He compares Christian with Kantian
                    values and concludes that they do not resolve the conflict and that
                    therefore there is no rational way to resolve the conflict. However, if he
                    had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                    resolvable through a rational method of decision. The utilitarian would
                    have chosen that course of action which maximizes the greatest amount of
                    happiness for the most number of people. If the choice is between making
                    only one person (the mother) happy as opposed to making many people (say the
                    village that one might liberate as a member of the French Army in exile)
                    happy, the choice would be clear and that would be a rational way of
                    deciding what to do. And, even approaching the issue from a
                    non-consequentialist point of view that focuses on say "what we care about",
                    the problem can enriched by considering some of the additional factors that
                    SWM points out. Can the mother get along without the son, or would she die
                    if he went off to fight? Do the students peers want him to join them, and
                    thereby make a unit of true comrades? Perhaps here Sartre has really
                    exaggerated the importance of making an unprincipled or radical choice.
                    There appears to be substantial reason to think that Sartre has given up on
                    reason far too soon.




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                  • James Martin
                    james tan wrote: the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
                      james tan wrote:

                      "the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality"


                      ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why this
                      particular morality. i know tt morality theory is to help making moral
                      decision. pretty obvious, isnt it?

                      james.


                      From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                      Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:06:51 -0700

                      James said:
                      >>the
                      question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.<<

                      Obviously, to make moral decisions.


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: james tan
                      Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:48 AM
                      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason


                      chris said:
                      "if he had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                      resolvable through a rational method of decision."

                      but this begs the question. it is not so much tt sartre did not think of the
                      consequences as in what kind of consequences one wants, which bring us back
                      to values. and if there is such a thing as a consequentialist morality, the
                      question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.

                      james.

                      From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                      Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:48:24 -0700

                      It is also noteworthy that Sartre considers the problem from essentially
                      only a deontological point of view. He compares Christian with Kantian
                      values and concludes that they do not resolve the conflict and that
                      therefore there is no rational way to resolve the conflict. However, if he
                      had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                      resolvable through a rational method of decision. The utilitarian would
                      have chosen that course of action which maximizes the greatest amount of
                      happiness for the most number of people. If the choice is between making
                      only one person (the mother) happy as opposed to making many people (say the
                      village that one might liberate as a member of the French Army in exile)
                      happy, the choice would be clear and that would be a rational way of
                      deciding what to do. And, even approaching the issue from a
                      non-consequentialist point of view that focuses on say "what we care about",
                      the problem can enriched by considering some of the additional factors that
                      SWM points out. Can the mother get along without the son, or would she die
                      if he went off to fight? Do the students peers want him to join them, and
                      thereby make a unit of true comrades? Perhaps here Sartre has really
                      exaggerated the importance of making an unprincipled or radical choice.
                      There appears to be substantial reason to think that Sartre has given up on
                      reason far too soon.

                      Jamar wrote,Morlity as we haevs come to know,has evoled over the years. We have so many sub-groups that we cannot ignore any more.And with that said, morality is the conerstone of this and any society, without it we will an anarchist type of being.

                      Jamar




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                    • SKIBO79
                      I think that Sartre did a good job to see that choices are neither rational or irrational. Each choice that we make , for me, comes to the decision on if life
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
                        I think that Sartre did a good job to see that choices are neither
                        rational or irrational. Each choice that we make , for me, comes to
                        the decision on if life is worth living or it isn't. We can see say
                        that neither one can ever be made without a subjective faith. Who's
                        to say that life is important or isn't. That's why Sartre says that
                        life is absurd, and therefore, so is death. A consequentialist
                        viewpoint is only taking in some types of variables, but these
                        variables are based on what WE THINK is beneficial. Then those
                        things are traced to other events that we would see are beneficial,
                        ad infinitum to we get to the same idea, is life worth living
                        (should I continue breathing or not). Therefore, consequentialism
                        becomes personal decision, which is what Sartre tried to get at
                        anyway. If you think that utilitarian ideas are superior over other
                        ways of morality, isn't that a personal decision, I think so, which
                        I just showed.

                        Brian
                        --- In existlist@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
                        >
                        > "the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a
                        morality"
                        >
                        >
                        > ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or
                        why this
                        > particular morality. i know tt morality theory is to help making
                        moral
                        > decision. pretty obvious, isnt it?
                        >
                        > james.
                        >
                        >
                        > From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@m...>
                        > Reply-To: WisdomForum@y...
                        > To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@y...>
                        > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                        > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:06:51 -0700
                        >
                        > James said:
                        > >>the
                        > question still remains why would one want to adopt such a
                        morality.<<
                        >
                        > Obviously, to make moral decisions.
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: james tan
                        > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:48 AM
                        > To: WisdomForum@y...
                        > Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                        >
                        >
                        > chris said:
                        > "if he had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may
                        have been
                        > resolvable through a rational method of decision."
                        >
                        > but this begs the question. it is not so much tt sartre did not
                        think of the
                        > consequences as in what kind of consequences one wants, which
                        bring us back
                        > to values. and if there is such a thing as a consequentialist
                        morality, the
                        > question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.
                        >
                        > james.
                        >
                        > From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@m...>
                        > Reply-To: WisdomForum@y...
                        > To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@y...>
                        > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                        > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:48:24 -0700
                        >
                        > It is also noteworthy that Sartre considers the problem from
                        essentially
                        > only a deontological point of view. He compares Christian with
                        Kantian
                        > values and concludes that they do not resolve the conflict and that
                        > therefore there is no rational way to resolve the conflict.
                        However, if he
                        > had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                        > resolvable through a rational method of decision. The utilitarian
                        would
                        > have chosen that course of action which maximizes the greatest
                        amount of
                        > happiness for the most number of people. If the choice is between
                        making
                        > only one person (the mother) happy as opposed to making many
                        people (say the
                        > village that one might liberate as a member of the French Army in
                        exile)
                        > happy, the choice would be clear and that would be a rational way
                        of
                        > deciding what to do. And, even approaching the issue from a
                        > non-consequentialist point of view that focuses on say "what we
                        care about",
                        > the problem can enriched by considering some of the additional
                        factors that
                        > SWM points out. Can the mother get along without the son, or
                        would she die
                        > if he went off to fight? Do the students peers want him to join
                        them, and
                        > thereby make a unit of true comrades? Perhaps here Sartre has
                        really
                        > exaggerated the importance of making an unprincipled or radical
                        choice.
                        > There appears to be substantial reason to think that Sartre has
                        given up on
                        > reason far too soon.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:
                        http://mobile.msn.com
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