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Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason

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  • Charles
    Bill, I am still fighting with stupidity, no with death. To wage a war on stupidity one has to be a brave stupid. All this is about politics; a radical
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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      Bill,

      I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
      death. To wage a war on stupidity one has to
      be a brave stupid.
      All this is about politics; a radical
      Democrat like yourself could start by
      explaining to me the differences
      between the two main polical parties in this
      country, if there are any. The Spartans can
      go to hell. ("war
      is the father of all and king of all"). Even
      at the lowest level of society, lets say,
      marriage or personal
      relatioships, means a constant reasurance for
      superiority, for being in power, for getting
      the upper hand,
      for being better than others, for WAR. (peace
      is the hidding place of the weak and
      efeminate).

      Charles



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bill Harris"
      <valleywestdental@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
      Reason


      Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
      matter what. In a lifetime it is
      truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are a
      coward, Right?
      The Spartans would give up their marriage
      bed to a man of greater worth as
      a warrior. But even warriors must sleep, you
      cant just fuck and fight. War
      can come at night and kill you when your
      sword is sheathed. Were you a
      warrior with that death? Bill
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
      Reason


      > Bill,
      >
      > War is what life is all about. You still
      seem
      > to be dreaming about that idealistic
      Repubilc
      > of the philosopher
      > King ( Democrats in power are just as
      stupid
      > as the Republicans ). Either politician
      > enjoys the comforts of
      > his own possessions and riches, while
      > preaching poverty in front of the
      parliament
      > or congress. ( I might just
      > as well become a Catholic priest). A little
      > sense of history might do the trick.
      >
      > Charles
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Bill Harris"
      > <valleywestdental@...>
      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
      > Reason
      >
      >
      > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
      will
      > we have a war on stupidity?
      > Bill
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
      > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
      > Reason
      >
      >
      > > Bill,
      > >
      > > I saw it on PBS channel.
      > >
      > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
      > interesting to
      > > note that the North was not that keen on
      > freeing
      > > the slaves. The proclamation almost did
      > them in.
      > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
      the
      > cause
      > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
      > thereabouts.
      > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
      any
      > > segment of society never works out.
      > Slavery had
      > > been long shown to financially
      > disadvantageous,
      > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
      then
      > it is
      > > difficult to see one's way to getting rid
      > of it.
      > > The same could be said for the cultural
      > mind-set
      > > which is being generated in the so-called
      > war on
      > > terrorism.
      > >
      > > eduard
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Bill Harris
      > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
      > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01 AM
      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
      > Reason
      > >
      > >
      > > James, I recently finished my third
      viewing
      > of Ken
      > > Burns "The Civil War" .
      > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
      > great many
      > > thoughts.
      > > i tend to think tt confederates are more
      > > conditioned[mid brain] than
      > > anything. their strong, intense
      background
      > their
      > > whole lives in radical,
      > > slave owning states is also a major
      > contributing
      > > factor. it is a closed,
      > > secessionist society they live in, and
      > > rebellious slave owning is their
      > > only world, and their whole world.
      > > There is no moral justification for war,
      > there is
      > > propaganda to fuel the
      > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
      > survivalist,
      > > bottom line enterprise of
      > > death. Bill
      > >
      > >
      > >
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    • eduard
      Charles, I presume that you are advocating a constant state of war; to make us strong and manly.
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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        Charles,

        <<< (peace is the hidding place of the weak and
        efeminate).>>>

        I presume that you are advocating a constant state
        of war; to make us strong and manly. Or have I
        mis-interpreted??

        eduard
      • james tan
        eduard, thanks for sharing ur views. james. From: eduard Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE:
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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          eduard,

          thanks for sharing ur views.

          james.


          From: eduard <yeoman@...>
          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason
          Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:48:45 -0400

          james,

          I find it amazing that we are still speaking of
          Hitler as the "killer". Not "a" killer, but "the"
          killer". The holocaust was not the product of one
          man, but of a society that sought to eliminate
          what was seen as an alien element in their midst.
          Hitler [and I am not being apologetic about him]
          was a catalyst or perhaps a focal point for action
          that was acceptable to the German society. What
          Hitler did was to say that it was Ok to kill the
          Jews. There is always some propensity to take
          violent action within a society, but normally the
          leadership tries to maintain a higher course.
          Sort of, to keep a lid on things. Hitler not only
          took the lid off, but threw it away.

          I think that an individual killer works in the
          same way. All of us have a bit of a dark side,
          and would take some direct action if given the
          opportunity and social approval. I am not
          suggesting that we are all killers at the bottom.
          I would love to express some harsh words at the
          clerk who just throws my change at me ... but I
          don't do it because of the scene it might make.
          It takes a special type of person to kill and that
          is due to a lot of other factors.

          In a crowd of people [e.g. a riot] there is a
          perception of approval or at least an absence of
          immediate disapproval. In such a situation that
          special person will kill.

          I think the same thing happens even when an
          individual is not part of a crowd. A killer tends
          to be a loner, in the sense that he/she reduces
          his/her society to only a few individuals ...
          which obviously includes the victim. In such a
          reduced society, it is easy for the individual to
          come to the conclusion that there is an approval.
          In fact, the only one who might be seen a voicing
          an objection is the victim, but since the victim
          is the target, their objection can be discounted.
          It is only when the killer is arrested that they
          are made aware that there is a larger society that
          disapproves.

          As to the WTC incident, I can see those that took
          over the aircraft as being able to isolate
          themselves from the world around them and the
          passengers in the aircraft. They most certainly
          had been primed to think of those others as
          somehow alien to their own perspective. Within
          their own reduced society fostered by Osama ben
          Ladin they have both opportunity and approval.

          Which a long way around to say that I agree with
          you ... that people don't kill out of fear. It is
          done in a clear and rational manner.

          eduard

          -----Original Message-----
          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
          Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 8:20 AM
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason

          u said:
          "Killers are always misguided because they are
          always proceeding from
          the motive of fear. "

          gee, maybe i am reading u out of context; but what
          u said about fear being
          the one and only reason for killer to kill
          is...just not true. while some
          may kill out of fear, there are others who kill
          because it serves their
          agenda, and can do so without any fear or losing
          nerve. killing can be just
          expedient, if it is well planned - just like a
          chess move where one has to
          'kill'. killers are not always misguided.

          james.

          From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
          Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:06:10 +0100

          At 12:48 pm +0000 26/9/02, swmaerske wrote:
          >Sometimes the killer may just be sadistic or
          crazy or both.
          >Sometimes, too, the killer may be misguided,
          e.g., Hitler's view that
          >the Jews represented an organic threat to the
          purity of the "Aryan
          >race", culture and civilization.

          Killers are always misguided because they are
          always proceeding from
          the motive of fear. While it is perfectly easy to
          understand people
          who act from the motive of fear - and we have all
          no doubt had first
          hand experience of this - it is never necessary.

          This is the most unfortunate consequence of an
          ethical system that
          places the survival of the individual uppermost.

          Tommy




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        • Charles
          eduard, I am not advocating a constant state of war; I am not the lawyer of becoming , which is the continuous struggle of one man against another; it is the
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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            eduard,

            I am not advocating a constant state of war;
            I am not the lawyer of "becoming", which is
            the continuous
            struggle of one man against another; it is
            the law of nature ( a continuous current of
            electricity without
            interference of space or time?) Hostile is
            nature, hostile is wisdom herself, hostile is
            life. The contemporary
            state of confusion in this respect is a
            simple example. Peace, on the other hand, is
            just an empty and
            meaningless word like justice and freedom, no
            to mention equality. And the character of a
            nation can be
            judged by the way they manage to survive, and
            more importantly, by the way they treat the
            delicacy,
            fineness, and pleasant appearance of the
            female of the species. (call me old fashion.)

            Charles

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:44 PM
            Subject: [existlist] war and peace


            Charles,

            <<< (peace is the hidding place of the weak
            and
            efeminate).>>>

            I presume that you are advocating a constant
            state
            of war; to make us strong and manly. Or have
            I
            mis-interpreted??

            eduard


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          • eduard
            Charles, I am not understanding. On the one hand you are stating that, Hostile is nature, hostile is wisdom herself, hostile is life. And yet on the other
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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              Charles,

              I am not understanding.

              On the one hand you are stating that, "Hostile is
              nature, hostile is wisdom herself, hostile is
              life."

              And yet on the other you mention that, "And the
              character of a nation can be judged by the way
              they manage to survive, and
              more importantly, by the way they treat the
              delicacy, fineness, and pleasant appearance of the
              female of the species."

              The two would seem to be contradictory. Hostility
              in life is represented by the abusive manner in
              which we treat others. A proper treatment of
              women is inherent in a peaceful society. Although
              we tend to think that there is progress in war
              years because of the development of military
              weapons that are later applied to civil use, the
              truth is that in times of peace there is also
              advancement which sustains a society.

              Although the word "peace" is abstract, in the same
              sense as "justice" and "freedom", the state of
              peace itself is not empty and meaningless. Rather
              it is the normal condition of man which is often
              interrupted by war.

              eduard
            • Bill Harris
              Charles, I really like what you say. Having said that I must sulk off in guilt for rejecting the better angels I was brainwashed to accept. Were there a
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
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                Charles, I really like what you say. Having said that I must sulk off in
                guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was brainwashed to accept.
                Were there a hell, the Spartans would certainly be there and they would be
                enjoying it immensely. They would be joined by republicans, nazis,
                confederates, Romans and other male dominated associations. The murderous
                mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game of king of the hill. I would
                like to be there myself because it is so simple and honest. It is the life
                of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in one`s own behalf, is at the
                clean base of existence. Feel the power of the wvermaxct in public
                gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing, drinking and a sound sleep with
                one`s comrades.
                Now it is back to the created reality of our present. I should smile and
                assent to the weak madness of the girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                and work endlessly to help the weak and oppressed. I should act like a
                fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be quiet, and respect the rights
                others have not earned, OR-----
                I should live in this dichotomous world, without direction. Bill
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason


                > Bill,
                >
                > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has to
                > be a brave stupid.
                > All this is about politics; a radical
                > Democrat like yourself could start by
                > explaining to me the differences
                > between the two main polical parties in this
                > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                > go to hell. ("war
                > is the father of all and king of all"). Even
                > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                > marriage or personal
                > relatioships, means a constant reasurance for
                > superiority, for being in power, for getting
                > the upper hand,
                > for being better than others, for WAR. (peace
                > is the hidding place of the weak and
                > efeminate).
                >
                > Charles
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Bill Harris"
                > <valleywestdental@...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                > Reason
                >
                >
                > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are a
                > coward, Right?
                > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                > bed to a man of greater worth as
                > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep, you
                > cant just fuck and fight. War
                > can come at night and kill you when your
                > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                > warrior with that death? Bill
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                > Reason
                >
                >
                > > Bill,
                > >
                > > War is what life is all about. You still
                > seem
                > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                > Repubilc
                > > of the philosopher
                > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                > stupid
                > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                > > enjoys the comforts of
                > > his own possessions and riches, while
                > > preaching poverty in front of the
                > parliament
                > > or congress. ( I might just
                > > as well become a Catholic priest). A little
                > > sense of history might do the trick.
                > >
                > > Charles
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Bill Harris"
                > > <valleywestdental@...>
                > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                > > Reason
                > >
                > >
                > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                > will
                > > we have a war on stupidity?
                > > Bill
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                > > Reason
                > >
                > >
                > > > Bill,
                > > >
                > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                > > >
                > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                > > interesting to
                > > > note that the North was not that keen on
                > > freeing
                > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost did
                > > them in.
                > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                > the
                > > cause
                > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                > > thereabouts.
                > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                > any
                > > > segment of society never works out.
                > > Slavery had
                > > > been long shown to financially
                > > disadvantageous,
                > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                > then
                > > it is
                > > > difficult to see one's way to getting rid
                > > of it.
                > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                > > mind-set
                > > > which is being generated in the so-called
                > > war on
                > > > terrorism.
                > > >
                > > > eduard
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: Bill Harris
                > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01 AM
                > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                > > Reason
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > James, I recently finished my third
                > viewing
                > > of Ken
                > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                > > great many
                > > > thoughts.
                > > > i tend to think tt confederates are more
                > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                > > > anything. their strong, intense
                > background
                > > their
                > > > whole lives in radical,
                > > > slave owning states is also a major
                > > contributing
                > > > factor. it is a closed,
                > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                > > > only world, and their whole world.
                > > > There is no moral justification for war,
                > > there is
                > > > propaganda to fuel the
                > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                > > survivalist,
                > > > bottom line enterprise of
                > > > death. Bill
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Our Home:
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                > > more.)
                > > >
                > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                > > email to:
                > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
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                > >
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              • Charles
                ... From: Bill Harris To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Bill Harris"
                  <valleywestdental@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  Reason


                  Charles, I really like what you say. Having
                  said that I must sulk off in
                  guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was
                  brainwashed to accept.
                  Were there a hell, the Spartans would
                  certainly be there and they would be
                  enjoying it immensely. They would be joined
                  by republicans, nazis,
                  confederates, Romans and other male dominated
                  associations. The murderous
                  mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game
                  of king of the hill. I would
                  like to be there myself because it is so
                  simple and honest. It is the life
                  of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in
                  one`s own behalf, is at the
                  clean base of existence. Feel the power of
                  the wvermaxct in public
                  gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing,
                  drinking and a sound sleep with
                  one`s comrades.
                  Now it is back to the created reality of our
                  present. I should smile and
                  assent to the weak madness of the
                  girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                  and work endlessly to help the weak and
                  oppressed. I should act like a
                  fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be
                  quiet, and respect the rights
                  others have not earned, OR-----
                  I should live in this dichotomous world,
                  without direction. Bill
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  Reason


                  > Bill,
                  >
                  > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                  > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has
                  to
                  > be a brave stupid.
                  > All this is about politics; a radical
                  > Democrat like yourself could start by
                  > explaining to me the differences
                  > between the two main polical parties in
                  this
                  > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                  > go to hell. ("war
                  > is the father of all and king of all").
                  Even
                  > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                  > marriage or personal
                  > relatioships, means a constant reasurance
                  for
                  > superiority, for being in power, for
                  getting
                  > the upper hand,
                  > for being better than others, for WAR.
                  (peace
                  > is the hidding place of the weak and
                  > efeminate).
                  >
                  > Charles
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Bill Harris"
                  > <valleywestdental@...>
                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > Reason
                  >
                  >
                  > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                  > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                  > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are
                  a
                  > coward, Right?
                  > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                  > bed to a man of greater worth as
                  > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep,
                  you
                  > cant just fuck and fight. War
                  > can come at night and kill you when your
                  > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                  > warrior with that death? Bill
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > Reason
                  >
                  >
                  > > Bill,
                  > >
                  > > War is what life is all about. You still
                  > seem
                  > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                  > Repubilc
                  > > of the philosopher
                  > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                  > stupid
                  > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                  > > enjoys the comforts of
                  > > his own possessions and riches, while
                  > > preaching poverty in front of the
                  > parliament
                  > > or congress. ( I might just
                  > > as well become a Catholic priest). A
                  little
                  > > sense of history might do the trick.
                  > >
                  > > Charles
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Bill Harris"
                  > > <valleywestdental@...>
                  > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > > Reason
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                  > will
                  > > we have a war on stupidity?
                  > > Bill
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                  > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                  > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                  > > Reason
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Bill,
                  > > >
                  > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                  > > >
                  > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                  > > interesting to
                  > > > note that the North was not that keen
                  on
                  > > freeing
                  > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost
                  did
                  > > them in.
                  > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                  > the
                  > > cause
                  > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                  > > thereabouts.
                  > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                  > any
                  > > > segment of society never works out.
                  > > Slavery had
                  > > > been long shown to financially
                  > > disadvantageous,
                  > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                  > then
                  > > it is
                  > > > difficult to see one's way to getting
                  rid
                  > > of it.
                  > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                  > > mind-set
                  > > > which is being generated in the
                  so-called
                  > > war on
                  > > > terrorism.
                  > > >
                  > > > eduard
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: Bill Harris
                  > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                  > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01
                  AM
                  > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing
                  and
                  > > Reason
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > James, I recently finished my third
                  > viewing
                  > > of Ken
                  > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                  > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                  > > great many
                  > > > thoughts.
                  > > > i tend to think tt confederates are
                  more
                  > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                  > > > anything. their strong, intense
                  > background
                  > > their
                  > > > whole lives in radical,
                  > > > slave owning states is also a major
                  > > contributing
                  > > > factor. it is a closed,
                  > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                  > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                  > > > only world, and their whole world.
                  > > > There is no moral justification for
                  war,
                  > > there is
                  > > > propaganda to fuel the
                  > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                  > > survivalist,
                  > > > bottom line enterprise of
                  > > > death. Bill
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Our Home:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > > > (Includes community book list, chat,
                  and
                  > > more.)
                  > > >
                  > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                  > > email to:
                  > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                  > >
                  > > Our Home:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                  > > more.)
                  > >
                  > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                  > email
                  > > to:
                  > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Our Home:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                  > more.)
                  > >
                  > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                  > email to:
                  > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                  >
                  > Our Home:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                  > more.)
                  >
                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                  email
                  > to:
                  > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Our Home:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                  more.)
                  >
                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                  email to:
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                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >


                  ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups

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                • Charles
                  Bill, You are right. You should be quiet and respect the rights others have not earned. Or you could be like a Spartan, and go to heaven. ( and don t forget
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Bill,

                    You are right. You should be quiet and
                    respect the rights others have not earned. Or
                    you could be like a
                    Spartan, and go to heaven. ( and don't forget
                    eduard).

                    Charles


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Bill Harris"
                    <valleywestdental@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    Reason


                    Charles, I really like what you say. Having
                    said that I must sulk off in
                    guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was
                    brainwashed to accept.
                    Were there a hell, the Spartans would
                    certainly be there and they would be
                    enjoying it immensely. They would be joined
                    by republicans, nazis,
                    confederates, Romans and other male dominated
                    associations. The murderous
                    mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game
                    of king of the hill. I would
                    like to be there myself because it is so
                    simple and honest. It is the life
                    of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in
                    one`s own behalf, is at the
                    clean base of existence. Feel the power of
                    the wvermaxct in public
                    gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing,
                    drinking and a sound sleep with
                    one`s comrades.
                    Now it is back to the created reality of our
                    present. I should smile and
                    assent to the weak madness of the
                    girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                    and work endlessly to help the weak and
                    oppressed. I should act like a
                    fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be
                    quiet, and respect the rights
                    others have not earned, OR-----
                    I should live in this dichotomous world,
                    without direction. Bill
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    Reason


                    > Bill,
                    >
                    > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                    > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has
                    to
                    > be a brave stupid.
                    > All this is about politics; a radical
                    > Democrat like yourself could start by
                    > explaining to me the differences
                    > between the two main polical parties in
                    this
                    > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                    > go to hell. ("war
                    > is the father of all and king of all").
                    Even
                    > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                    > marriage or personal
                    > relatioships, means a constant reasurance
                    for
                    > superiority, for being in power, for
                    getting
                    > the upper hand,
                    > for being better than others, for WAR.
                    (peace
                    > is the hidding place of the weak and
                    > efeminate).
                    >
                    > Charles
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Bill Harris"
                    > <valleywestdental@...>
                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    > Reason
                    >
                    >
                    > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                    > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                    > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are
                    a
                    > coward, Right?
                    > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                    > bed to a man of greater worth as
                    > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep,
                    you
                    > cant just fuck and fight. War
                    > can come at night and kill you when your
                    > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                    > warrior with that death? Bill
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    > Reason
                    >
                    >
                    > > Bill,
                    > >
                    > > War is what life is all about. You still
                    > seem
                    > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                    > Repubilc
                    > > of the philosopher
                    > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                    > stupid
                    > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                    > > enjoys the comforts of
                    > > his own possessions and riches, while
                    > > preaching poverty in front of the
                    > parliament
                    > > or congress. ( I might just
                    > > as well become a Catholic priest). A
                    little
                    > > sense of history might do the trick.
                    > >
                    > > Charles
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Bill Harris"
                    > > <valleywestdental@...>
                    > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                    > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    > > Reason
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                    > will
                    > > we have a war on stupidity?
                    > > Bill
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                    > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                    > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    > > Reason
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > Bill,
                    > > >
                    > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                    > > >
                    > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                    > > interesting to
                    > > > note that the North was not that keen
                    on
                    > > freeing
                    > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost
                    did
                    > > them in.
                    > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                    > the
                    > > cause
                    > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                    > > thereabouts.
                    > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                    > any
                    > > > segment of society never works out.
                    > > Slavery had
                    > > > been long shown to financially
                    > > disadvantageous,
                    > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                    > then
                    > > it is
                    > > > difficult to see one's way to getting
                    rid
                    > > of it.
                    > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                    > > mind-set
                    > > > which is being generated in the
                    so-called
                    > > war on
                    > > > terrorism.
                    > > >
                    > > > eduard
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: Bill Harris
                    > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                    > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01
                    AM
                    > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing
                    and
                    > > Reason
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > James, I recently finished my third
                    > viewing
                    > > of Ken
                    > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                    > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                    > > great many
                    > > > thoughts.
                    > > > i tend to think tt confederates are
                    more
                    > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                    > > > anything. their strong, intense
                    > background
                    > > their
                    > > > whole lives in radical,
                    > > > slave owning states is also a major
                    > > contributing
                    > > > factor. it is a closed,
                    > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                    > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                    > > > only world, and their whole world.
                    > > > There is no moral justification for
                    war,
                    > > there is
                    > > > propaganda to fuel the
                    > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                    > > survivalist,
                    > > > bottom line enterprise of
                    > > > death. Bill
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Our Home:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > > > (Includes community book list, chat,
                    and
                    > > more.)
                    > > >
                    > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                    > > email to:
                    > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                    > >
                    > > Our Home:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                    > > more.)
                    > >
                    > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                    > email
                    > > to:
                    > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Our Home:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                    > more.)
                    > >
                    > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                    > email to:
                    > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                    >
                    > Our Home:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                    > more.)
                    >
                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                    email
                    > to:
                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Our Home:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                    more.)
                    >
                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
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                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >


                    ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups

                    Our Home:
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                  • Bill Harris
                    Charles, Do not go quietly into that good night Bill ... From: Charles To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 3, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Charles,"Do not go quietly into that good night" Bill
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:48 PM
                      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason


                      > Bill,
                      >
                      > You are right. You should be quiet and
                      > respect the rights others have not earned. Or
                      > you could be like a
                      > Spartan, and go to heaven. ( and don't forget
                      > eduard).
                      >
                      > Charles
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Bill Harris"
                      > <valleywestdental@...>
                      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > Reason
                      >
                      >
                      > Charles, I really like what you say. Having
                      > said that I must sulk off in
                      > guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was
                      > brainwashed to accept.
                      > Were there a hell, the Spartans would
                      > certainly be there and they would be
                      > enjoying it immensely. They would be joined
                      > by republicans, nazis,
                      > confederates, Romans and other male dominated
                      > associations. The murderous
                      > mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game
                      > of king of the hill. I would
                      > like to be there myself because it is so
                      > simple and honest. It is the life
                      > of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in
                      > one`s own behalf, is at the
                      > clean base of existence. Feel the power of
                      > the wvermaxct in public
                      > gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing,
                      > drinking and a sound sleep with
                      > one`s comrades.
                      > Now it is back to the created reality of our
                      > present. I should smile and
                      > assent to the weak madness of the
                      > girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                      > and work endlessly to help the weak and
                      > oppressed. I should act like a
                      > fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be
                      > quiet, and respect the rights
                      > others have not earned, OR-----
                      > I should live in this dichotomous world,
                      > without direction. Bill
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > Reason
                      >
                      >
                      > > Bill,
                      > >
                      > > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                      > > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has
                      > to
                      > > be a brave stupid.
                      > > All this is about politics; a radical
                      > > Democrat like yourself could start by
                      > > explaining to me the differences
                      > > between the two main polical parties in
                      > this
                      > > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                      > > go to hell. ("war
                      > > is the father of all and king of all").
                      > Even
                      > > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                      > > marriage or personal
                      > > relatioships, means a constant reasurance
                      > for
                      > > superiority, for being in power, for
                      > getting
                      > > the upper hand,
                      > > for being better than others, for WAR.
                      > (peace
                      > > is the hidding place of the weak and
                      > > efeminate).
                      > >
                      > > Charles
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Bill Harris"
                      > > <valleywestdental@...>
                      > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > > Reason
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                      > > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                      > > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are
                      > a
                      > > coward, Right?
                      > > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                      > > bed to a man of greater worth as
                      > > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep,
                      > you
                      > > cant just fuck and fight. War
                      > > can come at night and kill you when your
                      > > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                      > > warrior with that death? Bill
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                      > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > > Reason
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > Bill,
                      > > >
                      > > > War is what life is all about. You still
                      > > seem
                      > > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                      > > Repubilc
                      > > > of the philosopher
                      > > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                      > > stupid
                      > > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                      > > > enjoys the comforts of
                      > > > his own possessions and riches, while
                      > > > preaching poverty in front of the
                      > > parliament
                      > > > or congress. ( I might just
                      > > > as well become a Catholic priest). A
                      > little
                      > > > sense of history might do the trick.
                      > > >
                      > > > Charles
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "Bill Harris"
                      > > > <valleywestdental@...>
                      > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                      > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > > > Reason
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                      > > will
                      > > > we have a war on stupidity?
                      > > > Bill
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                      > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                      > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > > > Reason
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > Bill,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                      > > > interesting to
                      > > > > note that the North was not that keen
                      > on
                      > > > freeing
                      > > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost
                      > did
                      > > > them in.
                      > > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                      > > the
                      > > > cause
                      > > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                      > > > thereabouts.
                      > > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                      > > any
                      > > > > segment of society never works out.
                      > > > Slavery had
                      > > > > been long shown to financially
                      > > > disadvantageous,
                      > > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                      > > then
                      > > > it is
                      > > > > difficult to see one's way to getting
                      > rid
                      > > > of it.
                      > > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                      > > > mind-set
                      > > > > which is being generated in the
                      > so-called
                      > > > war on
                      > > > > terrorism.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > eduard
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > From: Bill Harris
                      > > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                      > > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01
                      > AM
                      > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing
                      > and
                      > > > Reason
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > James, I recently finished my third
                      > > viewing
                      > > > of Ken
                      > > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                      > > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                      > > > great many
                      > > > > thoughts.
                      > > > > i tend to think tt confederates are
                      > more
                      > > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                      > > > > anything. their strong, intense
                      > > background
                      > > > their
                      > > > > whole lives in radical,
                      > > > > slave owning states is also a major
                      > > > contributing
                      > > > > factor. it is a closed,
                      > > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                      > > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                      > > > > only world, and their whole world.
                      > > > > There is no moral justification for
                      > war,
                      > > > there is
                      > > > > propaganda to fuel the
                      > > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                      > > > survivalist,
                      > > > > bottom line enterprise of
                      > > > > death. Bill
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Our Home:
                      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      > > > > (Includes community book list, chat,
                      > and
                      > > > more.)
                      > > > >
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                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
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                    • james tan
                      the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why this particular
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 9, 2002
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                        "the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality"


                        ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why this
                        particular morality. i know tt morality theory is to help making moral
                        decision. pretty obvious, isnt it?

                        james.


                        From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                        Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                        To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                        Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:06:51 -0700

                        James said:
                        >>the
                        question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.<<

                        Obviously, to make moral decisions.


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: james tan
                        Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:48 AM
                        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason


                        chris said:
                        "if he had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                        resolvable through a rational method of decision."

                        but this begs the question. it is not so much tt sartre did not think of the
                        consequences as in what kind of consequences one wants, which bring us back
                        to values. and if there is such a thing as a consequentialist morality, the
                        question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.

                        james.

                        From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                        Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                        To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                        Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:48:24 -0700

                        It is also noteworthy that Sartre considers the problem from essentially
                        only a deontological point of view. He compares Christian with Kantian
                        values and concludes that they do not resolve the conflict and that
                        therefore there is no rational way to resolve the conflict. However, if he
                        had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                        resolvable through a rational method of decision. The utilitarian would
                        have chosen that course of action which maximizes the greatest amount of
                        happiness for the most number of people. If the choice is between making
                        only one person (the mother) happy as opposed to making many people (say the
                        village that one might liberate as a member of the French Army in exile)
                        happy, the choice would be clear and that would be a rational way of
                        deciding what to do. And, even approaching the issue from a
                        non-consequentialist point of view that focuses on say "what we care about",
                        the problem can enriched by considering some of the additional factors that
                        SWM points out. Can the mother get along without the son, or would she die
                        if he went off to fight? Do the students peers want him to join them, and
                        thereby make a unit of true comrades? Perhaps here Sartre has really
                        exaggerated the importance of making an unprincipled or radical choice.
                        There appears to be substantial reason to think that Sartre has given up on
                        reason far too soon.




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                      • James Martin
                        james tan wrote: the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
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                          james tan wrote:

                          "the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality"


                          ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why this
                          particular morality. i know tt morality theory is to help making moral
                          decision. pretty obvious, isnt it?

                          james.


                          From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                          Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:06:51 -0700

                          James said:
                          >>the
                          question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.<<

                          Obviously, to make moral decisions.


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: james tan
                          Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:48 AM
                          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason


                          chris said:
                          "if he had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                          resolvable through a rational method of decision."

                          but this begs the question. it is not so much tt sartre did not think of the
                          consequences as in what kind of consequences one wants, which bring us back
                          to values. and if there is such a thing as a consequentialist morality, the
                          question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.

                          james.

                          From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                          Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:48:24 -0700

                          It is also noteworthy that Sartre considers the problem from essentially
                          only a deontological point of view. He compares Christian with Kantian
                          values and concludes that they do not resolve the conflict and that
                          therefore there is no rational way to resolve the conflict. However, if he
                          had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                          resolvable through a rational method of decision. The utilitarian would
                          have chosen that course of action which maximizes the greatest amount of
                          happiness for the most number of people. If the choice is between making
                          only one person (the mother) happy as opposed to making many people (say the
                          village that one might liberate as a member of the French Army in exile)
                          happy, the choice would be clear and that would be a rational way of
                          deciding what to do. And, even approaching the issue from a
                          non-consequentialist point of view that focuses on say "what we care about",
                          the problem can enriched by considering some of the additional factors that
                          SWM points out. Can the mother get along without the son, or would she die
                          if he went off to fight? Do the students peers want him to join them, and
                          thereby make a unit of true comrades? Perhaps here Sartre has really
                          exaggerated the importance of making an unprincipled or radical choice.
                          There appears to be substantial reason to think that Sartre has given up on
                          reason far too soon.

                          Jamar wrote,Morlity as we haevs come to know,has evoled over the years. We have so many sub-groups that we cannot ignore any more.And with that said, morality is the conerstone of this and any society, without it we will an anarchist type of being.

                          Jamar




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                        • SKIBO79
                          I think that Sartre did a good job to see that choices are neither rational or irrational. Each choice that we make , for me, comes to the decision on if life
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
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                            I think that Sartre did a good job to see that choices are neither
                            rational or irrational. Each choice that we make , for me, comes to
                            the decision on if life is worth living or it isn't. We can see say
                            that neither one can ever be made without a subjective faith. Who's
                            to say that life is important or isn't. That's why Sartre says that
                            life is absurd, and therefore, so is death. A consequentialist
                            viewpoint is only taking in some types of variables, but these
                            variables are based on what WE THINK is beneficial. Then those
                            things are traced to other events that we would see are beneficial,
                            ad infinitum to we get to the same idea, is life worth living
                            (should I continue breathing or not). Therefore, consequentialism
                            becomes personal decision, which is what Sartre tried to get at
                            anyway. If you think that utilitarian ideas are superior over other
                            ways of morality, isn't that a personal decision, I think so, which
                            I just showed.

                            Brian
                            --- In existlist@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
                            >
                            > "the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a
                            morality"
                            >
                            >
                            > ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or
                            why this
                            > particular morality. i know tt morality theory is to help making
                            moral
                            > decision. pretty obvious, isnt it?
                            >
                            > james.
                            >
                            >
                            > From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@m...>
                            > Reply-To: WisdomForum@y...
                            > To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@y...>
                            > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                            > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:06:51 -0700
                            >
                            > James said:
                            > >>the
                            > question still remains why would one want to adopt such a
                            morality.<<
                            >
                            > Obviously, to make moral decisions.
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: james tan
                            > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:48 AM
                            > To: WisdomForum@y...
                            > Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                            >
                            >
                            > chris said:
                            > "if he had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may
                            have been
                            > resolvable through a rational method of decision."
                            >
                            > but this begs the question. it is not so much tt sartre did not
                            think of the
                            > consequences as in what kind of consequences one wants, which
                            bring us back
                            > to values. and if there is such a thing as a consequentialist
                            morality, the
                            > question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.
                            >
                            > james.
                            >
                            > From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@m...>
                            > Reply-To: WisdomForum@y...
                            > To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@y...>
                            > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                            > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:48:24 -0700
                            >
                            > It is also noteworthy that Sartre considers the problem from
                            essentially
                            > only a deontological point of view. He compares Christian with
                            Kantian
                            > values and concludes that they do not resolve the conflict and that
                            > therefore there is no rational way to resolve the conflict.
                            However, if he
                            > had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                            > resolvable through a rational method of decision. The utilitarian
                            would
                            > have chosen that course of action which maximizes the greatest
                            amount of
                            > happiness for the most number of people. If the choice is between
                            making
                            > only one person (the mother) happy as opposed to making many
                            people (say the
                            > village that one might liberate as a member of the French Army in
                            exile)
                            > happy, the choice would be clear and that would be a rational way
                            of
                            > deciding what to do. And, even approaching the issue from a
                            > non-consequentialist point of view that focuses on say "what we
                            care about",
                            > the problem can enriched by considering some of the additional
                            factors that
                            > SWM points out. Can the mother get along without the son, or
                            would she die
                            > if he went off to fight? Do the students peers want him to join
                            them, and
                            > thereby make a unit of true comrades? Perhaps here Sartre has
                            really
                            > exaggerated the importance of making an unprincipled or radical
                            choice.
                            > There appears to be substantial reason to think that Sartre has
                            given up on
                            > reason far too soon.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
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