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Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason

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  • Charles
    Bill, War is what life is all about. You still seem to be dreaming about that idealistic Repubilc of the philosopher King ( Democrats in power are just as
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 30, 2002
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      Bill,

      War is what life is all about. You still seem
      to be dreaming about that idealistic Repubilc
      of the philosopher
      King ( Democrats in power are just as stupid
      as the Republicans ). Either politician
      enjoys the comforts of
      his own possessions and riches, while
      preaching poverty in front of the parliament
      or congress. ( I might just
      as well become a Catholic priest). A little
      sense of history might do the trick.

      Charles


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bill Harris"
      <valleywestdental@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
      Reason


      Eduard, War on this , war on that. When will
      we have a war on stupidity?
      Bill
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
      Reason


      > Bill,
      >
      > I saw it on PBS channel.
      >
      > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
      interesting to
      > note that the North was not that keen on
      freeing
      > the slaves. The proclamation almost did
      them in.
      > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus the
      cause
      > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
      thereabouts.
      > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of any
      > segment of society never works out.
      Slavery had
      > been long shown to financially
      disadvantageous,
      > but once it becomes part of a culture, then
      it is
      > difficult to see one's way to getting rid
      of it.
      > The same could be said for the cultural
      mind-set
      > which is being generated in the so-called
      war on
      > terrorism.
      >
      > eduard
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Bill Harris
      > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
      > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01 AM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
      Reason
      >
      >
      > James, I recently finished my third viewing
      of Ken
      > Burns "The Civil War" .
      > It is a sobering series that elicits a
      great many
      > thoughts.
      > i tend to think tt confederates are more
      > conditioned[mid brain] than
      > anything. their strong, intense background
      their
      > whole lives in radical,
      > slave owning states is also a major
      contributing
      > factor. it is a closed,
      > secessionist society they live in, and
      > rebellious slave owning is their
      > only world, and their whole world.
      > There is no moral justification for war,
      there is
      > propaganda to fuel the
      > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
      survivalist,
      > bottom line enterprise of
      > death. Bill
      >
      >
      >
      > Our Home:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and
      more.)
      >
      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
      email to:
      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >


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    • Bill Harris
      Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no matter what. In a lifetime it is truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are a coward, Right? The Spartans would
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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        Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no matter what. In a lifetime it is
        truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are a coward, Right?
        The Spartans would give up their marriage bed to a man of greater worth as
        a warrior. But even warriors must sleep, you cant just fuck and fight. War
        can come at night and kill you when your sword is sheathed. Were you a
        warrior with that death? Bill
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason


        > Bill,
        >
        > War is what life is all about. You still seem
        > to be dreaming about that idealistic Repubilc
        > of the philosopher
        > King ( Democrats in power are just as stupid
        > as the Republicans ). Either politician
        > enjoys the comforts of
        > his own possessions and riches, while
        > preaching poverty in front of the parliament
        > or congress. ( I might just
        > as well become a Catholic priest). A little
        > sense of history might do the trick.
        >
        > Charles
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Bill Harris"
        > <valleywestdental@...>
        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
        > Reason
        >
        >
        > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When will
        > we have a war on stupidity?
        > Bill
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
        > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
        > Reason
        >
        >
        > > Bill,
        > >
        > > I saw it on PBS channel.
        > >
        > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
        > interesting to
        > > note that the North was not that keen on
        > freeing
        > > the slaves. The proclamation almost did
        > them in.
        > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus the
        > cause
        > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
        > thereabouts.
        > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of any
        > > segment of society never works out.
        > Slavery had
        > > been long shown to financially
        > disadvantageous,
        > > but once it becomes part of a culture, then
        > it is
        > > difficult to see one's way to getting rid
        > of it.
        > > The same could be said for the cultural
        > mind-set
        > > which is being generated in the so-called
        > war on
        > > terrorism.
        > >
        > > eduard
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Bill Harris
        > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
        > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01 AM
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
        > Reason
        > >
        > >
        > > James, I recently finished my third viewing
        > of Ken
        > > Burns "The Civil War" .
        > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
        > great many
        > > thoughts.
        > > i tend to think tt confederates are more
        > > conditioned[mid brain] than
        > > anything. their strong, intense background
        > their
        > > whole lives in radical,
        > > slave owning states is also a major
        > contributing
        > > factor. it is a closed,
        > > secessionist society they live in, and
        > > rebellious slave owning is their
        > > only world, and their whole world.
        > > There is no moral justification for war,
        > there is
        > > propaganda to fuel the
        > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
        > survivalist,
        > > bottom line enterprise of
        > > death. Bill
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Our Home:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
        > more.)
        > >
        > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
        > email to:
        > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
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      • Charles
        Bill, I am still fighting with stupidity, no with death. To wage a war on stupidity one has to be a brave stupid. All this is about politics; a radical
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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          Bill,

          I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
          death. To wage a war on stupidity one has to
          be a brave stupid.
          All this is about politics; a radical
          Democrat like yourself could start by
          explaining to me the differences
          between the two main polical parties in this
          country, if there are any. The Spartans can
          go to hell. ("war
          is the father of all and king of all"). Even
          at the lowest level of society, lets say,
          marriage or personal
          relatioships, means a constant reasurance for
          superiority, for being in power, for getting
          the upper hand,
          for being better than others, for WAR. (peace
          is the hidding place of the weak and
          efeminate).

          Charles



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bill Harris"
          <valleywestdental@...>
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
          Reason


          Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
          matter what. In a lifetime it is
          truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are a
          coward, Right?
          The Spartans would give up their marriage
          bed to a man of greater worth as
          a warrior. But even warriors must sleep, you
          cant just fuck and fight. War
          can come at night and kill you when your
          sword is sheathed. Were you a
          warrior with that death? Bill
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
          Reason


          > Bill,
          >
          > War is what life is all about. You still
          seem
          > to be dreaming about that idealistic
          Repubilc
          > of the philosopher
          > King ( Democrats in power are just as
          stupid
          > as the Republicans ). Either politician
          > enjoys the comforts of
          > his own possessions and riches, while
          > preaching poverty in front of the
          parliament
          > or congress. ( I might just
          > as well become a Catholic priest). A little
          > sense of history might do the trick.
          >
          > Charles
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Bill Harris"
          > <valleywestdental@...>
          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
          > Reason
          >
          >
          > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
          will
          > we have a war on stupidity?
          > Bill
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
          > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
          > Reason
          >
          >
          > > Bill,
          > >
          > > I saw it on PBS channel.
          > >
          > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
          > interesting to
          > > note that the North was not that keen on
          > freeing
          > > the slaves. The proclamation almost did
          > them in.
          > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
          the
          > cause
          > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
          > thereabouts.
          > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
          any
          > > segment of society never works out.
          > Slavery had
          > > been long shown to financially
          > disadvantageous,
          > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
          then
          > it is
          > > difficult to see one's way to getting rid
          > of it.
          > > The same could be said for the cultural
          > mind-set
          > > which is being generated in the so-called
          > war on
          > > terrorism.
          > >
          > > eduard
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Bill Harris
          > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
          > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01 AM
          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
          > Reason
          > >
          > >
          > > James, I recently finished my third
          viewing
          > of Ken
          > > Burns "The Civil War" .
          > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
          > great many
          > > thoughts.
          > > i tend to think tt confederates are more
          > > conditioned[mid brain] than
          > > anything. their strong, intense
          background
          > their
          > > whole lives in radical,
          > > slave owning states is also a major
          > contributing
          > > factor. it is a closed,
          > > secessionist society they live in, and
          > > rebellious slave owning is their
          > > only world, and their whole world.
          > > There is no moral justification for war,
          > there is
          > > propaganda to fuel the
          > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
          > survivalist,
          > > bottom line enterprise of
          > > death. Bill
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Our Home:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
          > more.)
          > >
          > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
          > email to:
          > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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          > Our Home:
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          > to:
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
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          >
          >


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        • eduard
          Charles, I presume that you are advocating a constant state of war; to make us strong and manly.
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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            Charles,

            <<< (peace is the hidding place of the weak and
            efeminate).>>>

            I presume that you are advocating a constant state
            of war; to make us strong and manly. Or have I
            mis-interpreted??

            eduard
          • james tan
            eduard, thanks for sharing ur views. james. From: eduard Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE:
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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              eduard,

              thanks for sharing ur views.

              james.


              From: eduard <yeoman@...>
              Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason
              Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:48:45 -0400

              james,

              I find it amazing that we are still speaking of
              Hitler as the "killer". Not "a" killer, but "the"
              killer". The holocaust was not the product of one
              man, but of a society that sought to eliminate
              what was seen as an alien element in their midst.
              Hitler [and I am not being apologetic about him]
              was a catalyst or perhaps a focal point for action
              that was acceptable to the German society. What
              Hitler did was to say that it was Ok to kill the
              Jews. There is always some propensity to take
              violent action within a society, but normally the
              leadership tries to maintain a higher course.
              Sort of, to keep a lid on things. Hitler not only
              took the lid off, but threw it away.

              I think that an individual killer works in the
              same way. All of us have a bit of a dark side,
              and would take some direct action if given the
              opportunity and social approval. I am not
              suggesting that we are all killers at the bottom.
              I would love to express some harsh words at the
              clerk who just throws my change at me ... but I
              don't do it because of the scene it might make.
              It takes a special type of person to kill and that
              is due to a lot of other factors.

              In a crowd of people [e.g. a riot] there is a
              perception of approval or at least an absence of
              immediate disapproval. In such a situation that
              special person will kill.

              I think the same thing happens even when an
              individual is not part of a crowd. A killer tends
              to be a loner, in the sense that he/she reduces
              his/her society to only a few individuals ...
              which obviously includes the victim. In such a
              reduced society, it is easy for the individual to
              come to the conclusion that there is an approval.
              In fact, the only one who might be seen a voicing
              an objection is the victim, but since the victim
              is the target, their objection can be discounted.
              It is only when the killer is arrested that they
              are made aware that there is a larger society that
              disapproves.

              As to the WTC incident, I can see those that took
              over the aircraft as being able to isolate
              themselves from the world around them and the
              passengers in the aircraft. They most certainly
              had been primed to think of those others as
              somehow alien to their own perspective. Within
              their own reduced society fostered by Osama ben
              Ladin they have both opportunity and approval.

              Which a long way around to say that I agree with
              you ... that people don't kill out of fear. It is
              done in a clear and rational manner.

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
              Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 8:20 AM
              To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason

              u said:
              "Killers are always misguided because they are
              always proceeding from
              the motive of fear. "

              gee, maybe i am reading u out of context; but what
              u said about fear being
              the one and only reason for killer to kill
              is...just not true. while some
              may kill out of fear, there are others who kill
              because it serves their
              agenda, and can do so without any fear or losing
              nerve. killing can be just
              expedient, if it is well planned - just like a
              chess move where one has to
              'kill'. killers are not always misguided.

              james.

              From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
              Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
              To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
              Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:06:10 +0100

              At 12:48 pm +0000 26/9/02, swmaerske wrote:
              >Sometimes the killer may just be sadistic or
              crazy or both.
              >Sometimes, too, the killer may be misguided,
              e.g., Hitler's view that
              >the Jews represented an organic threat to the
              purity of the "Aryan
              >race", culture and civilization.

              Killers are always misguided because they are
              always proceeding from
              the motive of fear. While it is perfectly easy to
              understand people
              who act from the motive of fear - and we have all
              no doubt had first
              hand experience of this - it is never necessary.

              This is the most unfortunate consequence of an
              ethical system that
              places the survival of the individual uppermost.

              Tommy




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            • Charles
              eduard, I am not advocating a constant state of war; I am not the lawyer of becoming , which is the continuous struggle of one man against another; it is the
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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                eduard,

                I am not advocating a constant state of war;
                I am not the lawyer of "becoming", which is
                the continuous
                struggle of one man against another; it is
                the law of nature ( a continuous current of
                electricity without
                interference of space or time?) Hostile is
                nature, hostile is wisdom herself, hostile is
                life. The contemporary
                state of confusion in this respect is a
                simple example. Peace, on the other hand, is
                just an empty and
                meaningless word like justice and freedom, no
                to mention equality. And the character of a
                nation can be
                judged by the way they manage to survive, and
                more importantly, by the way they treat the
                delicacy,
                fineness, and pleasant appearance of the
                female of the species. (call me old fashion.)

                Charles

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:44 PM
                Subject: [existlist] war and peace


                Charles,

                <<< (peace is the hidding place of the weak
                and
                efeminate).>>>

                I presume that you are advocating a constant
                state
                of war; to make us strong and manly. Or have
                I
                mis-interpreted??

                eduard


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              • eduard
                Charles, I am not understanding. On the one hand you are stating that, Hostile is nature, hostile is wisdom herself, hostile is life. And yet on the other
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 1, 2002
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                  Charles,

                  I am not understanding.

                  On the one hand you are stating that, "Hostile is
                  nature, hostile is wisdom herself, hostile is
                  life."

                  And yet on the other you mention that, "And the
                  character of a nation can be judged by the way
                  they manage to survive, and
                  more importantly, by the way they treat the
                  delicacy, fineness, and pleasant appearance of the
                  female of the species."

                  The two would seem to be contradictory. Hostility
                  in life is represented by the abusive manner in
                  which we treat others. A proper treatment of
                  women is inherent in a peaceful society. Although
                  we tend to think that there is progress in war
                  years because of the development of military
                  weapons that are later applied to civil use, the
                  truth is that in times of peace there is also
                  advancement which sustains a society.

                  Although the word "peace" is abstract, in the same
                  sense as "justice" and "freedom", the state of
                  peace itself is not empty and meaningless. Rather
                  it is the normal condition of man which is often
                  interrupted by war.

                  eduard
                • Bill Harris
                  Charles, I really like what you say. Having said that I must sulk off in guilt for rejecting the better angels I was brainwashed to accept. Were there a
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
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                    Charles, I really like what you say. Having said that I must sulk off in
                    guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was brainwashed to accept.
                    Were there a hell, the Spartans would certainly be there and they would be
                    enjoying it immensely. They would be joined by republicans, nazis,
                    confederates, Romans and other male dominated associations. The murderous
                    mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game of king of the hill. I would
                    like to be there myself because it is so simple and honest. It is the life
                    of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in one`s own behalf, is at the
                    clean base of existence. Feel the power of the wvermaxct in public
                    gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing, drinking and a sound sleep with
                    one`s comrades.
                    Now it is back to the created reality of our present. I should smile and
                    assent to the weak madness of the girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                    and work endlessly to help the weak and oppressed. I should act like a
                    fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be quiet, and respect the rights
                    others have not earned, OR-----
                    I should live in this dichotomous world, without direction. Bill
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason


                    > Bill,
                    >
                    > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                    > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has to
                    > be a brave stupid.
                    > All this is about politics; a radical
                    > Democrat like yourself could start by
                    > explaining to me the differences
                    > between the two main polical parties in this
                    > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                    > go to hell. ("war
                    > is the father of all and king of all"). Even
                    > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                    > marriage or personal
                    > relatioships, means a constant reasurance for
                    > superiority, for being in power, for getting
                    > the upper hand,
                    > for being better than others, for WAR. (peace
                    > is the hidding place of the weak and
                    > efeminate).
                    >
                    > Charles
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Bill Harris"
                    > <valleywestdental@...>
                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    > Reason
                    >
                    >
                    > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                    > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                    > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are a
                    > coward, Right?
                    > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                    > bed to a man of greater worth as
                    > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep, you
                    > cant just fuck and fight. War
                    > can come at night and kill you when your
                    > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                    > warrior with that death? Bill
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    > Reason
                    >
                    >
                    > > Bill,
                    > >
                    > > War is what life is all about. You still
                    > seem
                    > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                    > Repubilc
                    > > of the philosopher
                    > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                    > stupid
                    > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                    > > enjoys the comforts of
                    > > his own possessions and riches, while
                    > > preaching poverty in front of the
                    > parliament
                    > > or congress. ( I might just
                    > > as well become a Catholic priest). A little
                    > > sense of history might do the trick.
                    > >
                    > > Charles
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Bill Harris"
                    > > <valleywestdental@...>
                    > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                    > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    > > Reason
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                    > will
                    > > we have a war on stupidity?
                    > > Bill
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                    > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                    > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    > > Reason
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > Bill,
                    > > >
                    > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                    > > >
                    > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                    > > interesting to
                    > > > note that the North was not that keen on
                    > > freeing
                    > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost did
                    > > them in.
                    > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                    > the
                    > > cause
                    > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                    > > thereabouts.
                    > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                    > any
                    > > > segment of society never works out.
                    > > Slavery had
                    > > > been long shown to financially
                    > > disadvantageous,
                    > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                    > then
                    > > it is
                    > > > difficult to see one's way to getting rid
                    > > of it.
                    > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                    > > mind-set
                    > > > which is being generated in the so-called
                    > > war on
                    > > > terrorism.
                    > > >
                    > > > eduard
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: Bill Harris
                    > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                    > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01 AM
                    > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                    > > Reason
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > James, I recently finished my third
                    > viewing
                    > > of Ken
                    > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                    > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                    > > great many
                    > > > thoughts.
                    > > > i tend to think tt confederates are more
                    > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                    > > > anything. their strong, intense
                    > background
                    > > their
                    > > > whole lives in radical,
                    > > > slave owning states is also a major
                    > > contributing
                    > > > factor. it is a closed,
                    > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                    > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                    > > > only world, and their whole world.
                    > > > There is no moral justification for war,
                    > > there is
                    > > > propaganda to fuel the
                    > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                    > > survivalist,
                    > > > bottom line enterprise of
                    > > > death. Bill
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Our Home:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                    > > more.)
                    > > >
                    > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                    > > email to:
                    > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                    > >
                    > > Our Home:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                    > > more.)
                    > >
                    > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                    > email
                    > > to:
                    > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Our Home:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                    > more.)
                    > >
                    > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                    > email to:
                    > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                    >
                    > Our Home:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                    > more.)
                    >
                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
                    > to:
                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
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                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Charles
                    ... From: Bill Harris To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Bill Harris"
                      <valleywestdental@...>
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM
                      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      Reason


                      Charles, I really like what you say. Having
                      said that I must sulk off in
                      guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was
                      brainwashed to accept.
                      Were there a hell, the Spartans would
                      certainly be there and they would be
                      enjoying it immensely. They would be joined
                      by republicans, nazis,
                      confederates, Romans and other male dominated
                      associations. The murderous
                      mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game
                      of king of the hill. I would
                      like to be there myself because it is so
                      simple and honest. It is the life
                      of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in
                      one`s own behalf, is at the
                      clean base of existence. Feel the power of
                      the wvermaxct in public
                      gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing,
                      drinking and a sound sleep with
                      one`s comrades.
                      Now it is back to the created reality of our
                      present. I should smile and
                      assent to the weak madness of the
                      girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                      and work endlessly to help the weak and
                      oppressed. I should act like a
                      fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be
                      quiet, and respect the rights
                      others have not earned, OR-----
                      I should live in this dichotomous world,
                      without direction. Bill
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      Reason


                      > Bill,
                      >
                      > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                      > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has
                      to
                      > be a brave stupid.
                      > All this is about politics; a radical
                      > Democrat like yourself could start by
                      > explaining to me the differences
                      > between the two main polical parties in
                      this
                      > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                      > go to hell. ("war
                      > is the father of all and king of all").
                      Even
                      > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                      > marriage or personal
                      > relatioships, means a constant reasurance
                      for
                      > superiority, for being in power, for
                      getting
                      > the upper hand,
                      > for being better than others, for WAR.
                      (peace
                      > is the hidding place of the weak and
                      > efeminate).
                      >
                      > Charles
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Bill Harris"
                      > <valleywestdental@...>
                      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > Reason
                      >
                      >
                      > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                      > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                      > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are
                      a
                      > coward, Right?
                      > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                      > bed to a man of greater worth as
                      > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep,
                      you
                      > cant just fuck and fight. War
                      > can come at night and kill you when your
                      > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                      > warrior with that death? Bill
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > Reason
                      >
                      >
                      > > Bill,
                      > >
                      > > War is what life is all about. You still
                      > seem
                      > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                      > Repubilc
                      > > of the philosopher
                      > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                      > stupid
                      > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                      > > enjoys the comforts of
                      > > his own possessions and riches, while
                      > > preaching poverty in front of the
                      > parliament
                      > > or congress. ( I might just
                      > > as well become a Catholic priest). A
                      little
                      > > sense of history might do the trick.
                      > >
                      > > Charles
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Bill Harris"
                      > > <valleywestdental@...>
                      > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                      > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > > Reason
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                      > will
                      > > we have a war on stupidity?
                      > > Bill
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                      > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                      > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                      > > Reason
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > Bill,
                      > > >
                      > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                      > > >
                      > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                      > > interesting to
                      > > > note that the North was not that keen
                      on
                      > > freeing
                      > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost
                      did
                      > > them in.
                      > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                      > the
                      > > cause
                      > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                      > > thereabouts.
                      > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                      > any
                      > > > segment of society never works out.
                      > > Slavery had
                      > > > been long shown to financially
                      > > disadvantageous,
                      > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                      > then
                      > > it is
                      > > > difficult to see one's way to getting
                      rid
                      > > of it.
                      > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                      > > mind-set
                      > > > which is being generated in the
                      so-called
                      > > war on
                      > > > terrorism.
                      > > >
                      > > > eduard
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: Bill Harris
                      > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                      > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01
                      AM
                      > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing
                      and
                      > > Reason
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > James, I recently finished my third
                      > viewing
                      > > of Ken
                      > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                      > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                      > > great many
                      > > > thoughts.
                      > > > i tend to think tt confederates are
                      more
                      > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                      > > > anything. their strong, intense
                      > background
                      > > their
                      > > > whole lives in radical,
                      > > > slave owning states is also a major
                      > > contributing
                      > > > factor. it is a closed,
                      > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                      > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                      > > > only world, and their whole world.
                      > > > There is no moral justification for
                      war,
                      > > there is
                      > > > propaganda to fuel the
                      > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                      > > survivalist,
                      > > > bottom line enterprise of
                      > > > death. Bill
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Our Home:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      > > > (Includes community book list, chat,
                      and
                      > > more.)
                      > > >
                      > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                      > > email to:
                      > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                      > >
                      > > Our Home:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                      > > more.)
                      > >
                      > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                      > email
                      > > to:
                      > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Our Home:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                      > more.)
                      > >
                      > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                      > email to:
                      > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                      >
                      > Our Home:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                      > more.)
                      >
                      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                      email
                      > to:
                      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Our Home:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                      more.)
                      >
                      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                      email to:
                      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups

                      Our Home:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      (Includes community book list, chat, and
                      more.)

                      TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
                      to:
                      existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Charles
                      Bill, You are right. You should be quiet and respect the rights others have not earned. Or you could be like a Spartan, and go to heaven. ( and don t forget
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 2, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Bill,

                        You are right. You should be quiet and
                        respect the rights others have not earned. Or
                        you could be like a
                        Spartan, and go to heaven. ( and don't forget
                        eduard).

                        Charles


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Bill Harris"
                        <valleywestdental@...>
                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                        Reason


                        Charles, I really like what you say. Having
                        said that I must sulk off in
                        guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was
                        brainwashed to accept.
                        Were there a hell, the Spartans would
                        certainly be there and they would be
                        enjoying it immensely. They would be joined
                        by republicans, nazis,
                        confederates, Romans and other male dominated
                        associations. The murderous
                        mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game
                        of king of the hill. I would
                        like to be there myself because it is so
                        simple and honest. It is the life
                        of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in
                        one`s own behalf, is at the
                        clean base of existence. Feel the power of
                        the wvermaxct in public
                        gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing,
                        drinking and a sound sleep with
                        one`s comrades.
                        Now it is back to the created reality of our
                        present. I should smile and
                        assent to the weak madness of the
                        girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                        and work endlessly to help the weak and
                        oppressed. I should act like a
                        fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be
                        quiet, and respect the rights
                        others have not earned, OR-----
                        I should live in this dichotomous world,
                        without direction. Bill
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                        Reason


                        > Bill,
                        >
                        > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                        > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has
                        to
                        > be a brave stupid.
                        > All this is about politics; a radical
                        > Democrat like yourself could start by
                        > explaining to me the differences
                        > between the two main polical parties in
                        this
                        > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                        > go to hell. ("war
                        > is the father of all and king of all").
                        Even
                        > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                        > marriage or personal
                        > relatioships, means a constant reasurance
                        for
                        > superiority, for being in power, for
                        getting
                        > the upper hand,
                        > for being better than others, for WAR.
                        (peace
                        > is the hidding place of the weak and
                        > efeminate).
                        >
                        > Charles
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Bill Harris"
                        > <valleywestdental@...>
                        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                        > Reason
                        >
                        >
                        > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                        > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                        > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are
                        a
                        > coward, Right?
                        > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                        > bed to a man of greater worth as
                        > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep,
                        you
                        > cant just fuck and fight. War
                        > can come at night and kill you when your
                        > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                        > warrior with that death? Bill
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                        > Reason
                        >
                        >
                        > > Bill,
                        > >
                        > > War is what life is all about. You still
                        > seem
                        > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                        > Repubilc
                        > > of the philosopher
                        > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                        > stupid
                        > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                        > > enjoys the comforts of
                        > > his own possessions and riches, while
                        > > preaching poverty in front of the
                        > parliament
                        > > or congress. ( I might just
                        > > as well become a Catholic priest). A
                        little
                        > > sense of history might do the trick.
                        > >
                        > > Charles
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "Bill Harris"
                        > > <valleywestdental@...>
                        > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                        > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                        > > Reason
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                        > will
                        > > we have a war on stupidity?
                        > > Bill
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                        > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                        > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                        > > Reason
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Bill,
                        > > >
                        > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                        > > >
                        > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                        > > interesting to
                        > > > note that the North was not that keen
                        on
                        > > freeing
                        > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost
                        did
                        > > them in.
                        > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                        > the
                        > > cause
                        > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                        > > thereabouts.
                        > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                        > any
                        > > > segment of society never works out.
                        > > Slavery had
                        > > > been long shown to financially
                        > > disadvantageous,
                        > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                        > then
                        > > it is
                        > > > difficult to see one's way to getting
                        rid
                        > > of it.
                        > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                        > > mind-set
                        > > > which is being generated in the
                        so-called
                        > > war on
                        > > > terrorism.
                        > > >
                        > > > eduard
                        > > >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > From: Bill Harris
                        > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                        > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01
                        AM
                        > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing
                        and
                        > > Reason
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > James, I recently finished my third
                        > viewing
                        > > of Ken
                        > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                        > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                        > > great many
                        > > > thoughts.
                        > > > i tend to think tt confederates are
                        more
                        > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                        > > > anything. their strong, intense
                        > background
                        > > their
                        > > > whole lives in radical,
                        > > > slave owning states is also a major
                        > > contributing
                        > > > factor. it is a closed,
                        > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                        > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                        > > > only world, and their whole world.
                        > > > There is no moral justification for
                        war,
                        > > there is
                        > > > propaganda to fuel the
                        > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                        > > survivalist,
                        > > > bottom line enterprise of
                        > > > death. Bill
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                      • Bill Harris
                        Charles, Do not go quietly into that good night Bill ... From: Charles To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 3, 2002
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                          Charles,"Do not go quietly into that good night" Bill
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:48 PM
                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason


                          > Bill,
                          >
                          > You are right. You should be quiet and
                          > respect the rights others have not earned. Or
                          > you could be like a
                          > Spartan, and go to heaven. ( and don't forget
                          > eduard).
                          >
                          > Charles
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Bill Harris"
                          > <valleywestdental@...>
                          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:51 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                          > Reason
                          >
                          >
                          > Charles, I really like what you say. Having
                          > said that I must sulk off in
                          > guilt for rejecting the "better angels" I was
                          > brainwashed to accept.
                          > Were there a hell, the Spartans would
                          > certainly be there and they would be
                          > enjoying it immensely. They would be joined
                          > by republicans, nazis,
                          > confederates, Romans and other male dominated
                          > associations. The murderous
                          > mass would engage in an eternal , lethal game
                          > of king of the hill. I would
                          > like to be there myself because it is so
                          > simple and honest. It is the life
                          > of the hunter, not the gatherer. To exert, in
                          > one`s own behalf, is at the
                          > clean base of existence. Feel the power of
                          > the wvermaxct in public
                          > gymnasium . Marching, fighting, killing,
                          > drinking and a sound sleep with
                          > one`s comrades.
                          > Now it is back to the created reality of our
                          > present. I should smile and
                          > assent to the weak madness of the
                          > girley-boys. I should be a good democrat
                          > and work endlessly to help the weak and
                          > oppressed. I should act like a
                          > fucking cunt and pretend I care. I should be
                          > quiet, and respect the rights
                          > others have not earned, OR-----
                          > I should live in this dichotomous world,
                          > without direction. Bill
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:21 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                          > Reason
                          >
                          >
                          > > Bill,
                          > >
                          > > I am still fighting with stupidity, no with
                          > > death. To wage a war on stupidity one has
                          > to
                          > > be a brave stupid.
                          > > All this is about politics; a radical
                          > > Democrat like yourself could start by
                          > > explaining to me the differences
                          > > between the two main polical parties in
                          > this
                          > > country, if there are any. The Spartans can
                          > > go to hell. ("war
                          > > is the father of all and king of all").
                          > Even
                          > > at the lowest level of society, lets say,
                          > > marriage or personal
                          > > relatioships, means a constant reasurance
                          > for
                          > > superiority, for being in power, for
                          > getting
                          > > the upper hand,
                          > > for being better than others, for WAR.
                          > (peace
                          > > is the hidding place of the weak and
                          > > efeminate).
                          > >
                          > > Charles
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "Bill Harris"
                          > > <valleywestdental@...>
                          > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                          > > Reason
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Charles, War seems to take it`s portion, no
                          > > matter what. In a lifetime it is
                          > > truly a feat to avoid war. But then you are
                          > a
                          > > coward, Right?
                          > > The Spartans would give up their marriage
                          > > bed to a man of greater worth as
                          > > a warrior. But even warriors must sleep,
                          > you
                          > > cant just fuck and fight. War
                          > > can come at night and kill you when your
                          > > sword is sheathed. Were you a
                          > > warrior with that death? Bill
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                          > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:34 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                          > > Reason
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > Bill,
                          > > >
                          > > > War is what life is all about. You still
                          > > seem
                          > > > to be dreaming about that idealistic
                          > > Repubilc
                          > > > of the philosopher
                          > > > King ( Democrats in power are just as
                          > > stupid
                          > > > as the Republicans ). Either politician
                          > > > enjoys the comforts of
                          > > > his own possessions and riches, while
                          > > > preaching poverty in front of the
                          > > parliament
                          > > > or congress. ( I might just
                          > > > as well become a Catholic priest). A
                          > little
                          > > > sense of history might do the trick.
                          > > >
                          > > > Charles
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: "Bill Harris"
                          > > > <valleywestdental@...>
                          > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:18 AM
                          > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                          > > > Reason
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Eduard, War on this , war on that. When
                          > > will
                          > > > we have a war on stupidity?
                          > > > Bill
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                          > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:42 AM
                          > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and
                          > > > Reason
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > > Bill,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I saw it on PBS channel.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Everyone has a mind-set. It was
                          > > > interesting to
                          > > > > note that the North was not that keen
                          > on
                          > > > freeing
                          > > > > the slaves. The proclamation almost
                          > did
                          > > > them in.
                          > > > > To the North, the issue was jobs. Thus
                          > > the
                          > > > cause
                          > > > > of the riots in New York in 1863 or
                          > > > thereabouts.
                          > > > > It is amazing ... a lesser treatment of
                          > > any
                          > > > > segment of society never works out.
                          > > > Slavery had
                          > > > > been long shown to financially
                          > > > disadvantageous,
                          > > > > but once it becomes part of a culture,
                          > > then
                          > > > it is
                          > > > > difficult to see one's way to getting
                          > rid
                          > > > of it.
                          > > > > The same could be said for the cultural
                          > > > mind-set
                          > > > > which is being generated in the
                          > so-called
                          > > > war on
                          > > > > terrorism.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > eduard
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > From: Bill Harris
                          > > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                          > > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:01
                          > AM
                          > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Choosing
                          > and
                          > > > Reason
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > James, I recently finished my third
                          > > viewing
                          > > > of Ken
                          > > > > Burns "The Civil War" .
                          > > > > It is a sobering series that elicits a
                          > > > great many
                          > > > > thoughts.
                          > > > > i tend to think tt confederates are
                          > more
                          > > > > conditioned[mid brain] than
                          > > > > anything. their strong, intense
                          > > background
                          > > > their
                          > > > > whole lives in radical,
                          > > > > slave owning states is also a major
                          > > > contributing
                          > > > > factor. it is a closed,
                          > > > > secessionist society they live in, and
                          > > > > rebellious slave owning is their
                          > > > > only world, and their whole world.
                          > > > > There is no moral justification for
                          > war,
                          > > > there is
                          > > > > propaganda to fuel the
                          > > > > fires of homicidal emotion. It is a
                          > > > survivalist,
                          > > > > bottom line enterprise of
                          > > > > death. Bill
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
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                        • james tan
                          the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why this particular
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 9, 2002
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                            "the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality"


                            ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why this
                            particular morality. i know tt morality theory is to help making moral
                            decision. pretty obvious, isnt it?

                            james.


                            From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                            Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                            To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                            Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:06:51 -0700

                            James said:
                            >>the
                            question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.<<

                            Obviously, to make moral decisions.


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: james tan
                            Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:48 AM
                            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason


                            chris said:
                            "if he had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                            resolvable through a rational method of decision."

                            but this begs the question. it is not so much tt sartre did not think of the
                            consequences as in what kind of consequences one wants, which bring us back
                            to values. and if there is such a thing as a consequentialist morality, the
                            question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.

                            james.

                            From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                            Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                            To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                            Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:48:24 -0700

                            It is also noteworthy that Sartre considers the problem from essentially
                            only a deontological point of view. He compares Christian with Kantian
                            values and concludes that they do not resolve the conflict and that
                            therefore there is no rational way to resolve the conflict. However, if he
                            had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                            resolvable through a rational method of decision. The utilitarian would
                            have chosen that course of action which maximizes the greatest amount of
                            happiness for the most number of people. If the choice is between making
                            only one person (the mother) happy as opposed to making many people (say the
                            village that one might liberate as a member of the French Army in exile)
                            happy, the choice would be clear and that would be a rational way of
                            deciding what to do. And, even approaching the issue from a
                            non-consequentialist point of view that focuses on say "what we care about",
                            the problem can enriched by considering some of the additional factors that
                            SWM points out. Can the mother get along without the son, or would she die
                            if he went off to fight? Do the students peers want him to join them, and
                            thereby make a unit of true comrades? Perhaps here Sartre has really
                            exaggerated the importance of making an unprincipled or radical choice.
                            There appears to be substantial reason to think that Sartre has given up on
                            reason far too soon.




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                          • James Martin
                            james tan wrote: the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
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                              james tan wrote:

                              "the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality"


                              ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or why this
                              particular morality. i know tt morality theory is to help making moral
                              decision. pretty obvious, isnt it?

                              james.


                              From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                              Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                              To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                              Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:06:51 -0700

                              James said:
                              >>the
                              question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.<<

                              Obviously, to make moral decisions.


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: james tan
                              Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:48 AM
                              To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason


                              chris said:
                              "if he had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                              resolvable through a rational method of decision."

                              but this begs the question. it is not so much tt sartre did not think of the
                              consequences as in what kind of consequences one wants, which bring us back
                              to values. and if there is such a thing as a consequentialist morality, the
                              question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.

                              james.

                              From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                              Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                              To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                              Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:48:24 -0700

                              It is also noteworthy that Sartre considers the problem from essentially
                              only a deontological point of view. He compares Christian with Kantian
                              values and concludes that they do not resolve the conflict and that
                              therefore there is no rational way to resolve the conflict. However, if he
                              had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                              resolvable through a rational method of decision. The utilitarian would
                              have chosen that course of action which maximizes the greatest amount of
                              happiness for the most number of people. If the choice is between making
                              only one person (the mother) happy as opposed to making many people (say the
                              village that one might liberate as a member of the French Army in exile)
                              happy, the choice would be clear and that would be a rational way of
                              deciding what to do. And, even approaching the issue from a
                              non-consequentialist point of view that focuses on say "what we care about",
                              the problem can enriched by considering some of the additional factors that
                              SWM points out. Can the mother get along without the son, or would she die
                              if he went off to fight? Do the students peers want him to join them, and
                              thereby make a unit of true comrades? Perhaps here Sartre has really
                              exaggerated the importance of making an unprincipled or radical choice.
                              There appears to be substantial reason to think that Sartre has given up on
                              reason far too soon.

                              Jamar wrote,Morlity as we haevs come to know,has evoled over the years. We have so many sub-groups that we cannot ignore any more.And with that said, morality is the conerstone of this and any society, without it we will an anarchist type of being.

                              Jamar




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                            • SKIBO79
                              I think that Sartre did a good job to see that choices are neither rational or irrational. Each choice that we make , for me, comes to the decision on if life
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
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                                I think that Sartre did a good job to see that choices are neither
                                rational or irrational. Each choice that we make , for me, comes to
                                the decision on if life is worth living or it isn't. We can see say
                                that neither one can ever be made without a subjective faith. Who's
                                to say that life is important or isn't. That's why Sartre says that
                                life is absurd, and therefore, so is death. A consequentialist
                                viewpoint is only taking in some types of variables, but these
                                variables are based on what WE THINK is beneficial. Then those
                                things are traced to other events that we would see are beneficial,
                                ad infinitum to we get to the same idea, is life worth living
                                (should I continue breathing or not). Therefore, consequentialism
                                becomes personal decision, which is what Sartre tried to get at
                                anyway. If you think that utilitarian ideas are superior over other
                                ways of morality, isn't that a personal decision, I think so, which
                                I just showed.

                                Brian
                                --- In existlist@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
                                >
                                > "the question still remains why would one want to adopt such a
                                morality"
                                >
                                >
                                > ur answer emphasise on the WHY but my emphasis was on the SUCH or
                                why this
                                > particular morality. i know tt morality theory is to help making
                                moral
                                > decision. pretty obvious, isnt it?
                                >
                                > james.
                                >
                                >
                                > From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@m...>
                                > Reply-To: WisdomForum@y...
                                > To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@y...>
                                > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                                > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:06:51 -0700
                                >
                                > James said:
                                > >>the
                                > question still remains why would one want to adopt such a
                                morality.<<
                                >
                                > Obviously, to make moral decisions.
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: james tan
                                > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:48 AM
                                > To: WisdomForum@y...
                                > Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                                >
                                >
                                > chris said:
                                > "if he had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may
                                have been
                                > resolvable through a rational method of decision."
                                >
                                > but this begs the question. it is not so much tt sartre did not
                                think of the
                                > consequences as in what kind of consequences one wants, which
                                bring us back
                                > to values. and if there is such a thing as a consequentialist
                                morality, the
                                > question still remains why would one want to adopt such a morality.
                                >
                                > james.
                                >
                                > From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@m...>
                                > Reply-To: WisdomForum@y...
                                > To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@y...>
                                > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
                                > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:48:24 -0700
                                >
                                > It is also noteworthy that Sartre considers the problem from
                                essentially
                                > only a deontological point of view. He compares Christian with
                                Kantian
                                > values and concludes that they do not resolve the conflict and that
                                > therefore there is no rational way to resolve the conflict.
                                However, if he
                                > had employed a consequentialist morality, the problem may have been
                                > resolvable through a rational method of decision. The utilitarian
                                would
                                > have chosen that course of action which maximizes the greatest
                                amount of
                                > happiness for the most number of people. If the choice is between
                                making
                                > only one person (the mother) happy as opposed to making many
                                people (say the
                                > village that one might liberate as a member of the French Army in
                                exile)
                                > happy, the choice would be clear and that would be a rational way
                                of
                                > deciding what to do. And, even approaching the issue from a
                                > non-consequentialist point of view that focuses on say "what we
                                care about",
                                > the problem can enriched by considering some of the additional
                                factors that
                                > SWM points out. Can the mother get along without the son, or
                                would she die
                                > if he went off to fight? Do the students peers want him to join
                                them, and
                                > thereby make a unit of true comrades? Perhaps here Sartre has
                                really
                                > exaggerated the importance of making an unprincipled or radical
                                choice.
                                > There appears to be substantial reason to think that Sartre has
                                given up on
                                > reason far too soon.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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