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Re: troat experiment

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  • elbookdoc
    ... What I would imagine is that to me it would never really matter or become material in my world. It doesn t matter. The things that do are those things that
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 4, 2002
      > I would presume from your little comment, that you
      > believe that trees never fall, because no one is
      > around to see it happen.

      What I would imagine is that to me it would never really matter or
      become material in my world. It doesn't matter. The things that do
      are those things that become part of my perception. If I have no
      perception whatever of an event, it might as well not have happened.
      That can be a direct, indirect or intellectual perception.

      If something is never perceived, it is conceivable that it never
      happened.

      > p.s. What is a "troat"??

      Brooklynese for throat.

      "Wash dicar wal I slit dis gouy's troat."

      Little Imagination
      ------------------------------------------
    • eduard
      elbookdoc, Yes, I can understand that point of view. Things that I dont see happen are not part of my immediate world and I suppose that if dont see some
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 4, 2002
        elbookdoc,

        Yes, I can understand that point of view. Things
        that I dont see happen are not part of my
        immediate world and I suppose that if dont see
        some eventual evidence of a tree falling [wood
        flooring, paper pages of my book, etc..] , then I
        might think that it never happened. But doesn't
        that create a certain difficulty?? Surely there
        are a lot of things that you dont see happen, and
        yet are of importance to one's well being.

        Thankyou for your explanation of "troat" ...

        eduard

        -----Original Message-----
        From: elbookdoc [mailto:thebookdoc@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 4:45 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] Re: troat experiment


        > I would presume from your little comment, that
        you
        > believe that trees never fall, because no one is
        > around to see it happen.

        What I would imagine is that to me it would never
        really matter or
        become material in my world. It doesn't matter.
        The things that do
        are those things that become part of my
        perception. If I have no
        perception whatever of an event, it might as well
        not have happened.
        That can be a direct, indirect or intellectual
        perception.

        If something is never perceived, it is conceivable
        that it never
        happened.

        > p.s. What is a "troat"??

        Brooklynese for throat.

        "Wash dicar wal I slit dis gouy's troat."

        Little Imagination
      • George Walton
        Ed, I wouldn t worry about whether or not you can hear the tree fall, okay? But, if one falls, hits you on the head and you don t feel it, that might be cause
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 4, 2002
          Ed,

          I wouldn't worry about whether or not you can hear the
          tree fall, okay? But, if one falls, hits you on the
          head and you don't feel it, that might be cause for
          considerable more concern. In other words, it might
          have killed you.

          Let me know if that happens, okay?

          Biggie



          --- eduard <yeoman@...> wrote:
          > elbookdoc,
          >
          > Yes, I can understand that point of view. Things
          > that I dont see happen are not part of my
          > immediate world and I suppose that if dont see
          > some eventual evidence of a tree falling [wood
          > flooring, paper pages of my book, etc..] , then I
          > might think that it never happened. But doesn't
          > that create a certain difficulty?? Surely there
          > are a lot of things that you dont see happen, and
          > yet are of importance to one's well being.
          >
          > Thankyou for your explanation of "troat" ...
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: elbookdoc [mailto:thebookdoc@...]
          > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 4:45 PM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] Re: troat experiment
          >
          >
          > > I would presume from your little comment, that
          > you
          > > believe that trees never fall, because no one is
          > > around to see it happen.
          >
          > What I would imagine is that to me it would never
          > really matter or
          > become material in my world. It doesn't matter.
          > The things that do
          > are those things that become part of my
          > perception. If I have no
          > perception whatever of an event, it might as well
          > not have happened.
          > That can be a direct, indirect or intellectual
          > perception.
          >
          > If something is never perceived, it is conceivable
          > that it never
          > happened.
          >
          > > p.s. What is a "troat"??
          >
          > Brooklynese for throat.
          >
          > "Wash dicar wal I slit dis gouy's troat."
          >
          > Little Imagination
          >
          >
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        • eduard
          George, I will definitely take that to heart. I am almost finished my book. John Gibbon, is now speaking of alternate universes. In other words the cat, in
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 4, 2002
            George,

            I will definitely take that to heart.

            I am almost finished my book. John Gibbon, is now
            speaking of alternate universes. In other words
            the cat, in the box is both dead and alive and
            each occurs in an alternate universe. Every
            decision point branches to another universe which
            once created will exist at the same time, but
            those which are not ours, are unknown to us.
            Gibbon is referring to a paper by Everett that was
            [at the time] supported by Wheeler. Although this
            seems to resolve the difficulty of the two slit
            experiment, it creates a lot of metaphysical
            baggage which perhaps is even more difficult. In
            effect, it is saying that, in our universe, the
            electron goes through one hole and some observer
            in another universe sees it going through the
            other hole. The wave function does not collapse
            but simply presents the choice of the particle to
            each universe. In this manner the particle does
            not need to "know" of the two holes, in the sense
            that it makes a unique choice. It makes both
            choices and each carries on its own universe. You
            can see how this results in a greater difficulty
            of visualization. After the electron makes its
            particular choice, the observer may either switch
            the experiment off or leave it on. Or he could
            put on his red tie or blue tie. Or he could walk
            out of the building or go to the cafeteria. The
            number of universes to accommodate all these
            choices and branching is mind boggling ...

            eduard

            -----Original Message-----
            From: George Walton
            [mailto:iambiguously@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 6:26 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [existlist] if a tree falls and I
            dont see it happen


            Ed,

            I wouldn't worry about whether or not you can hear
            the
            tree fall, okay? But, if one falls, hits you on
            the
            head and you don't feel it, that might be cause
            for
            considerable more concern. In other words, it
            might
            have killed you.

            Let me know if that happens, okay?

            Biggie
          • elbookdoc
            We ll not get back to clams for this diatribe, but I believe that flies will do. Say there is a man who needs to change his oil. He is a bit hung over and
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 5, 2002
              We'll not get back to clams for this diatribe, but I believe that
              flies will do.

              Say there is a man who needs to change his oil. He is a bit hung over
              and perhaps irritable as this is not a thing that he'd really wanted
              to do in this state and to get the beer to sooth the ache, he needs
              to have the car -- whose which he'd set to drain. To make matters
              worse, the heat is hot and the wind is still and he smells from not
              showering, catching the attention of a fly.

              The fly hovers in craft above the fellow as he is about to pour, like
              flys do. The fellow puts down the oil to shush the fly and, done
              shushing, reaches for the oil quart...laying his hands on another,
              not the original open one. He snaps the new top thinking he'd done it
              already and starts to pour. He refuses to stop this time as the fly
              has at him. Waving hands wildly he trashes the original quart, which
              floods the driveway in its excrement -- so to speak. The fellow
              continues to pour as the puddle of oil seems to grow, thinking to
              himself he'll replace the quart he spilled when he gets to the quick-
              n-go. He was one quart short to start with and figured what he had
              would get him there, he'd get some beer and oil and be back.

              Done pouring, the fellow forgets about the fly which has gone away.
              He hops in the car and starts to drive off...leaving a small trail of
              oil, and almost 3 entire quarts of oil in a puddle on the driveway,
              as he forgot to put the plug back in the pan. A few minutes down the
              road, the engine siezes. Cars pile up in a waiting stream behind, and
              tempers rise. Some cross the double yellow to pass. On one of these
              cars, a bicycle improperly strapped to the rack falls to the side of
              the road and is damaged. The father circles the car back and picks up
              the bike, and decides to haul it right then to the bike shop so as
              not to ruin the plans for the afternoon.

              At the bike shop, the mechanic who sets to work on the bike is a bit
              of a perfectionist. He's straightened what was bent and goes through
              a few pains to touch up the paint. It only takes a few moments more.
              He's got an appointment with a realtor to look at a new appartment
              that is only a few minutes from the shop. He'll be a few minutes
              late, but no big deal. He checks out the family and sends them on
              their way, then hops in his car and bounds off. He was going to take
              his bike, but, being late already, he decided not to push his luck
              with the realtor.

              He sees the apartment and likes it. He puts in a down-payment. On the
              way back from the apartment, he makes a wrong turn. He honks his horn
              at an old woman who seems to be pulling out of her driveway without
              stopping to look. She hears the horn and stops. She curses youth,
              takes a moment to calm down, then slowly starts on her way again. A
              few moments later she kills a young father at an intersection by
              running a light that she thought she would make.

              Before I go on, let me point out that this is not at all where this
              story ends. But I end it here.

              What caused the death?

              The woman never saw the fly. The fellow in the shop never saw the
              fly. The fellow who brought his bike to the shop never saw the fly.
              The dead fellow never saw the fly. The fellow whose car engine has
              seized has forgotten the fly.

              In essence the idea of the fly does not matter, but the fly, for me,
              symbolizes quantum mechanics. It is a random behavior which sets off
              a stream of behaviors, which, by chance can be said to manifest into
              something else. It is not predictable as to whether the fly caused
              the death, as there are many points where the events might have
              happened in a similar way. For example, the fly may not have bothered
              the fellow while he changed his oil, yet because he arived on time to
              the meeting with the realtor, the realtor was more chatty and
              personable, and the two spent longer discussing the apartment and
              other interests, yet the fellow still managed to leave to get back to
              work at exactly the same time, still encountering the woman with a
              honk of the horn, still resulting in the death of the young father.

              What I also find interesting here is that many things might have
              happened anyway. The car may have seized had the plug gone in the pan
              and the oil been retained -- regardless of the fly. The bike may have
              fallen from the car necessitating the trip to the shop because it was
              poorly tied. The fellow from the shop might have passed the woman in
              many different series of events (e.g., being on-time and on his bike,
              he took the wrong turn and delayed her by riding behind and shouting,
              rather than using the horn). The woman, not distracted by the horn
              may have though of something she forgot, then felt it unimportant and
              continued on. The fellow that died might have cut himself shaving and
              in taking just 5 seconds to dab on a bit of tissue may have saved
              himself from his early fate -- or created a different one that
              occurred at the same time for some other reason. And at any point
              some other variable might be introduced to change the series of
              events.

              There are decisions that effect the outcome as well as calculations,
              and both are not always critical. Observation matters (woman hears
              horn), previous outcomes matter (fellow drinks the night before), and
              the cycle does not end, while new events appear. Everything effects
              everything else to a greater or lesser extent as the timeline moves
              forward. And should the young father turn out to be the fellow whose
              car had seized, coming back from where he'd already accepted a rental
              car, events can effectively lie dormant to affect later, larger
              changes. And can do so unpredictably.

              There is both no reason to assume the result is predictable, and no
              reason to assume it is not probable (depending on the nature and
              complexity of behaviors). There is also no reason to assume
              calculations are not just dumb luck and a decent approximation of a
              probable result. To say one knows what happens is a lie.

              It is following the exceptions that give clues to actual, rather than
              probable, behaviors and outcomes. Yet, even following these, you can
              never know.

              Sails Untied
              --------------------------------------------
            • eduard
              elbookdoc,
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 5, 2002
                elbookdoc,

                << In essence the idea of the fly does not matter,
                but the fly, for me, symbolizes quantum mechanics.
                It is a random behavior which sets off a stream of
                behaviors, which, by chance can be said to
                manifest into something else >>

                If the fly is representative of quantum mechanics,
                then it itself is a probability function. It can
                be any number of possibilities, from a live fly to
                a dead fly, to the fly that is caught in a spiders
                web. The man who is changing oil, collapses the
                function such as to create the single fly that
                distracts his attention. The point made by John
                Gibbon is that this single fly is that known in
                our universe, along with all the subsequent events
                that cascade from that encounter in the driveway.
                The other states of this fly carry on in other
                universes. Perhaps in the universe in which the
                fly is caught in a spider's web, the oil changer
                is not distracted, and his car does not stop, such
                that he runs down the old lady and thus saves the
                father who goes on to write a text book on
                Existentialism.

                eduard
              • elbookdoc
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 6, 2002
                  << The point made by John
                  > Gibbon is that this single fly is that known in
                  > our universe, along with all the subsequent events
                  > that cascade from that encounter in the driveway.

                  I don't mean to be cocky, but I somehow knew what I was going
                  to say as soon as you responded and that it would affect exactly
                  this:

                  The fellow who had been drinking was a heavy, habitual drinker.
                  He was prone to delirium. The fly was not real.

                  Now you'll tell me it doesn't make a difference.

                  I have a little trouble with the idea that all possible events *exist*,
                  and that there are multiple universi (?) necessarily. Isn't that
                  POTENTIAL that exists, rather than necessarily assuming other
                  universes do? A pretty grand assumption -- especially for one
                  like yourself (missouri be damned). I would be all with you if you
                  were discussing perspective (each individual perspective is a
                  universe), but to 'collapse' things: If the universe is not observed
                  (or imagined), does it make a sound?

                  Your perspective on Gibbon makes him sound like a duck.

                  P. Littlebrain
                  ----------------------------------------------------
                • eduard
                  elbookdoc, Yes, I have the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 6, 2002
                    elbookdoc,

                    << I have a little trouble with the idea that all
                    possible events *exist*, and that there are
                    multiple universi (?) necessarily. >>

                    Yes, I have the same problem with the idea that
                    there are multiple universes. It seems much to
                    complex. But then it seems to provide an answer to
                    the difficulty of dealing with the superposition
                    of states. I suspect, however, that it has it has
                    a certain attraction because it matches the
                    mathematics. Actually, this whole thing is well
                    beyond me and I guess I shall have to read some
                    more books.

                    I am now into a book, "God and the New Physics" by
                    Paul Davies. What struck me whilst reading it
                    last night, was the idea that the within the
                    present universe, there is an inherent tendency
                    for localized order out of the surrounding chaos.
                    I don't have a specific quote, as this is more in
                    the way of an impression I obtain in the reading.
                    Although the universe, in general, tends towards
                    overall chaos [high entropy], the formation of
                    stars, galaxies, and life itself is towards order
                    [low entropy]. I recall reading about the
                    philosophical/religious outlook of the ancient
                    Sumerians. In that they initiated the dualist
                    idea of good and evil which I would put in terms
                    of order and chaos respectively. The Egyptians
                    had the same sort of outlook, with the pharaoh
                    being the protector of society against chaos.
                    From there one could develop a personal philosophy
                    based upon our purpose as being to maintain and
                    propagate order. This seems more pleasing than a
                    simple purpose of propagating ourselves, as
                    humans, through reproduction and such. Perhaps
                    one could also look at it from an Existentialist
                    viewpoint in that our choices produce ever
                    increasing order. It fits as well with the idea
                    that our choices are made for everyone.

                    << Your perspective on Gibbon makes him sound like
                    a duck.>>

                    I don't understand this last comment.

                    eduard
                  • elbookdoc
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 6, 2002
                      << Your perspective on Gibbon makes him sound like
                      > a duck.>>
                      >
                      > I don't understand this last comment.>>

                      Ducks go Quack.

                      Mr. Mallard
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