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RE: [existlist] Re: two slits in the troat experiment

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  • eduard
    elbookdoc, Ah ... the old bookdoc. Attacking the messenger instead of the issue. I would presume from your little comment, that you believe that trees never
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 4, 2002
      elbookdoc,

      Ah ... the old bookdoc. Attacking the messenger
      instead of the issue.

      I would presume from your little comment, that you
      believe that trees never fall, because no one is
      around to see it happen.

      eduard
      p.s. What is a "troat"??

      -----Original Message-----
      From: elbookdoc [mailto:thebookdoc@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 10:52 AM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] Re: two slits in the troat
      experiment


      <<... as if the universe is waiting for only us to
      "look" at it and
      thus determine its fate.>>

      It is.

      The universe is fated to our perspective. Like a
      tree that falls the
      existence of the universe is only noticed by being
      (imagined or
      otherwise).

      What 'Duard really doesn't like is that he can't
      staple an equation
      to something and put it in a catalog. It's an
      exception to all the
      rules. Yuck.

      Pine Needle
    • elbookdoc
      ... What I would imagine is that to me it would never really matter or become material in my world. It doesn t matter. The things that do are those things that
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 4, 2002
        > I would presume from your little comment, that you
        > believe that trees never fall, because no one is
        > around to see it happen.

        What I would imagine is that to me it would never really matter or
        become material in my world. It doesn't matter. The things that do
        are those things that become part of my perception. If I have no
        perception whatever of an event, it might as well not have happened.
        That can be a direct, indirect or intellectual perception.

        If something is never perceived, it is conceivable that it never
        happened.

        > p.s. What is a "troat"??

        Brooklynese for throat.

        "Wash dicar wal I slit dis gouy's troat."

        Little Imagination
        ------------------------------------------
      • eduard
        elbookdoc, Yes, I can understand that point of view. Things that I dont see happen are not part of my immediate world and I suppose that if dont see some
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 4, 2002
          elbookdoc,

          Yes, I can understand that point of view. Things
          that I dont see happen are not part of my
          immediate world and I suppose that if dont see
          some eventual evidence of a tree falling [wood
          flooring, paper pages of my book, etc..] , then I
          might think that it never happened. But doesn't
          that create a certain difficulty?? Surely there
          are a lot of things that you dont see happen, and
          yet are of importance to one's well being.

          Thankyou for your explanation of "troat" ...

          eduard

          -----Original Message-----
          From: elbookdoc [mailto:thebookdoc@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 4:45 PM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [existlist] Re: troat experiment


          > I would presume from your little comment, that
          you
          > believe that trees never fall, because no one is
          > around to see it happen.

          What I would imagine is that to me it would never
          really matter or
          become material in my world. It doesn't matter.
          The things that do
          are those things that become part of my
          perception. If I have no
          perception whatever of an event, it might as well
          not have happened.
          That can be a direct, indirect or intellectual
          perception.

          If something is never perceived, it is conceivable
          that it never
          happened.

          > p.s. What is a "troat"??

          Brooklynese for throat.

          "Wash dicar wal I slit dis gouy's troat."

          Little Imagination
        • George Walton
          Ed, I wouldn t worry about whether or not you can hear the tree fall, okay? But, if one falls, hits you on the head and you don t feel it, that might be cause
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 4, 2002
            Ed,

            I wouldn't worry about whether or not you can hear the
            tree fall, okay? But, if one falls, hits you on the
            head and you don't feel it, that might be cause for
            considerable more concern. In other words, it might
            have killed you.

            Let me know if that happens, okay?

            Biggie



            --- eduard <yeoman@...> wrote:
            > elbookdoc,
            >
            > Yes, I can understand that point of view. Things
            > that I dont see happen are not part of my
            > immediate world and I suppose that if dont see
            > some eventual evidence of a tree falling [wood
            > flooring, paper pages of my book, etc..] , then I
            > might think that it never happened. But doesn't
            > that create a certain difficulty?? Surely there
            > are a lot of things that you dont see happen, and
            > yet are of importance to one's well being.
            >
            > Thankyou for your explanation of "troat" ...
            >
            > eduard
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: elbookdoc [mailto:thebookdoc@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 4:45 PM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: troat experiment
            >
            >
            > > I would presume from your little comment, that
            > you
            > > believe that trees never fall, because no one is
            > > around to see it happen.
            >
            > What I would imagine is that to me it would never
            > really matter or
            > become material in my world. It doesn't matter.
            > The things that do
            > are those things that become part of my
            > perception. If I have no
            > perception whatever of an event, it might as well
            > not have happened.
            > That can be a direct, indirect or intellectual
            > perception.
            >
            > If something is never perceived, it is conceivable
            > that it never
            > happened.
            >
            > > p.s. What is a "troat"??
            >
            > Brooklynese for throat.
            >
            > "Wash dicar wal I slit dis gouy's troat."
            >
            > Little Imagination
            >
            >
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          • eduard
            George, I will definitely take that to heart. I am almost finished my book. John Gibbon, is now speaking of alternate universes. In other words the cat, in
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 4, 2002
              George,

              I will definitely take that to heart.

              I am almost finished my book. John Gibbon, is now
              speaking of alternate universes. In other words
              the cat, in the box is both dead and alive and
              each occurs in an alternate universe. Every
              decision point branches to another universe which
              once created will exist at the same time, but
              those which are not ours, are unknown to us.
              Gibbon is referring to a paper by Everett that was
              [at the time] supported by Wheeler. Although this
              seems to resolve the difficulty of the two slit
              experiment, it creates a lot of metaphysical
              baggage which perhaps is even more difficult. In
              effect, it is saying that, in our universe, the
              electron goes through one hole and some observer
              in another universe sees it going through the
              other hole. The wave function does not collapse
              but simply presents the choice of the particle to
              each universe. In this manner the particle does
              not need to "know" of the two holes, in the sense
              that it makes a unique choice. It makes both
              choices and each carries on its own universe. You
              can see how this results in a greater difficulty
              of visualization. After the electron makes its
              particular choice, the observer may either switch
              the experiment off or leave it on. Or he could
              put on his red tie or blue tie. Or he could walk
              out of the building or go to the cafeteria. The
              number of universes to accommodate all these
              choices and branching is mind boggling ...

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: George Walton
              [mailto:iambiguously@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 6:26 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [existlist] if a tree falls and I
              dont see it happen


              Ed,

              I wouldn't worry about whether or not you can hear
              the
              tree fall, okay? But, if one falls, hits you on
              the
              head and you don't feel it, that might be cause
              for
              considerable more concern. In other words, it
              might
              have killed you.

              Let me know if that happens, okay?

              Biggie
            • elbookdoc
              We ll not get back to clams for this diatribe, but I believe that flies will do. Say there is a man who needs to change his oil. He is a bit hung over and
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 5, 2002
                We'll not get back to clams for this diatribe, but I believe that
                flies will do.

                Say there is a man who needs to change his oil. He is a bit hung over
                and perhaps irritable as this is not a thing that he'd really wanted
                to do in this state and to get the beer to sooth the ache, he needs
                to have the car -- whose which he'd set to drain. To make matters
                worse, the heat is hot and the wind is still and he smells from not
                showering, catching the attention of a fly.

                The fly hovers in craft above the fellow as he is about to pour, like
                flys do. The fellow puts down the oil to shush the fly and, done
                shushing, reaches for the oil quart...laying his hands on another,
                not the original open one. He snaps the new top thinking he'd done it
                already and starts to pour. He refuses to stop this time as the fly
                has at him. Waving hands wildly he trashes the original quart, which
                floods the driveway in its excrement -- so to speak. The fellow
                continues to pour as the puddle of oil seems to grow, thinking to
                himself he'll replace the quart he spilled when he gets to the quick-
                n-go. He was one quart short to start with and figured what he had
                would get him there, he'd get some beer and oil and be back.

                Done pouring, the fellow forgets about the fly which has gone away.
                He hops in the car and starts to drive off...leaving a small trail of
                oil, and almost 3 entire quarts of oil in a puddle on the driveway,
                as he forgot to put the plug back in the pan. A few minutes down the
                road, the engine siezes. Cars pile up in a waiting stream behind, and
                tempers rise. Some cross the double yellow to pass. On one of these
                cars, a bicycle improperly strapped to the rack falls to the side of
                the road and is damaged. The father circles the car back and picks up
                the bike, and decides to haul it right then to the bike shop so as
                not to ruin the plans for the afternoon.

                At the bike shop, the mechanic who sets to work on the bike is a bit
                of a perfectionist. He's straightened what was bent and goes through
                a few pains to touch up the paint. It only takes a few moments more.
                He's got an appointment with a realtor to look at a new appartment
                that is only a few minutes from the shop. He'll be a few minutes
                late, but no big deal. He checks out the family and sends them on
                their way, then hops in his car and bounds off. He was going to take
                his bike, but, being late already, he decided not to push his luck
                with the realtor.

                He sees the apartment and likes it. He puts in a down-payment. On the
                way back from the apartment, he makes a wrong turn. He honks his horn
                at an old woman who seems to be pulling out of her driveway without
                stopping to look. She hears the horn and stops. She curses youth,
                takes a moment to calm down, then slowly starts on her way again. A
                few moments later she kills a young father at an intersection by
                running a light that she thought she would make.

                Before I go on, let me point out that this is not at all where this
                story ends. But I end it here.

                What caused the death?

                The woman never saw the fly. The fellow in the shop never saw the
                fly. The fellow who brought his bike to the shop never saw the fly.
                The dead fellow never saw the fly. The fellow whose car engine has
                seized has forgotten the fly.

                In essence the idea of the fly does not matter, but the fly, for me,
                symbolizes quantum mechanics. It is a random behavior which sets off
                a stream of behaviors, which, by chance can be said to manifest into
                something else. It is not predictable as to whether the fly caused
                the death, as there are many points where the events might have
                happened in a similar way. For example, the fly may not have bothered
                the fellow while he changed his oil, yet because he arived on time to
                the meeting with the realtor, the realtor was more chatty and
                personable, and the two spent longer discussing the apartment and
                other interests, yet the fellow still managed to leave to get back to
                work at exactly the same time, still encountering the woman with a
                honk of the horn, still resulting in the death of the young father.

                What I also find interesting here is that many things might have
                happened anyway. The car may have seized had the plug gone in the pan
                and the oil been retained -- regardless of the fly. The bike may have
                fallen from the car necessitating the trip to the shop because it was
                poorly tied. The fellow from the shop might have passed the woman in
                many different series of events (e.g., being on-time and on his bike,
                he took the wrong turn and delayed her by riding behind and shouting,
                rather than using the horn). The woman, not distracted by the horn
                may have though of something she forgot, then felt it unimportant and
                continued on. The fellow that died might have cut himself shaving and
                in taking just 5 seconds to dab on a bit of tissue may have saved
                himself from his early fate -- or created a different one that
                occurred at the same time for some other reason. And at any point
                some other variable might be introduced to change the series of
                events.

                There are decisions that effect the outcome as well as calculations,
                and both are not always critical. Observation matters (woman hears
                horn), previous outcomes matter (fellow drinks the night before), and
                the cycle does not end, while new events appear. Everything effects
                everything else to a greater or lesser extent as the timeline moves
                forward. And should the young father turn out to be the fellow whose
                car had seized, coming back from where he'd already accepted a rental
                car, events can effectively lie dormant to affect later, larger
                changes. And can do so unpredictably.

                There is both no reason to assume the result is predictable, and no
                reason to assume it is not probable (depending on the nature and
                complexity of behaviors). There is also no reason to assume
                calculations are not just dumb luck and a decent approximation of a
                probable result. To say one knows what happens is a lie.

                It is following the exceptions that give clues to actual, rather than
                probable, behaviors and outcomes. Yet, even following these, you can
                never know.

                Sails Untied
                --------------------------------------------
              • eduard
                elbookdoc,
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 5, 2002
                  elbookdoc,

                  << In essence the idea of the fly does not matter,
                  but the fly, for me, symbolizes quantum mechanics.
                  It is a random behavior which sets off a stream of
                  behaviors, which, by chance can be said to
                  manifest into something else >>

                  If the fly is representative of quantum mechanics,
                  then it itself is a probability function. It can
                  be any number of possibilities, from a live fly to
                  a dead fly, to the fly that is caught in a spiders
                  web. The man who is changing oil, collapses the
                  function such as to create the single fly that
                  distracts his attention. The point made by John
                  Gibbon is that this single fly is that known in
                  our universe, along with all the subsequent events
                  that cascade from that encounter in the driveway.
                  The other states of this fly carry on in other
                  universes. Perhaps in the universe in which the
                  fly is caught in a spider's web, the oil changer
                  is not distracted, and his car does not stop, such
                  that he runs down the old lady and thus saves the
                  father who goes on to write a text book on
                  Existentialism.

                  eduard
                • elbookdoc
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 6, 2002
                    << The point made by John
                    > Gibbon is that this single fly is that known in
                    > our universe, along with all the subsequent events
                    > that cascade from that encounter in the driveway.

                    I don't mean to be cocky, but I somehow knew what I was going
                    to say as soon as you responded and that it would affect exactly
                    this:

                    The fellow who had been drinking was a heavy, habitual drinker.
                    He was prone to delirium. The fly was not real.

                    Now you'll tell me it doesn't make a difference.

                    I have a little trouble with the idea that all possible events *exist*,
                    and that there are multiple universi (?) necessarily. Isn't that
                    POTENTIAL that exists, rather than necessarily assuming other
                    universes do? A pretty grand assumption -- especially for one
                    like yourself (missouri be damned). I would be all with you if you
                    were discussing perspective (each individual perspective is a
                    universe), but to 'collapse' things: If the universe is not observed
                    (or imagined), does it make a sound?

                    Your perspective on Gibbon makes him sound like a duck.

                    P. Littlebrain
                    ----------------------------------------------------
                  • eduard
                    elbookdoc, Yes, I have the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 6, 2002
                      elbookdoc,

                      << I have a little trouble with the idea that all
                      possible events *exist*, and that there are
                      multiple universi (?) necessarily. >>

                      Yes, I have the same problem with the idea that
                      there are multiple universes. It seems much to
                      complex. But then it seems to provide an answer to
                      the difficulty of dealing with the superposition
                      of states. I suspect, however, that it has it has
                      a certain attraction because it matches the
                      mathematics. Actually, this whole thing is well
                      beyond me and I guess I shall have to read some
                      more books.

                      I am now into a book, "God and the New Physics" by
                      Paul Davies. What struck me whilst reading it
                      last night, was the idea that the within the
                      present universe, there is an inherent tendency
                      for localized order out of the surrounding chaos.
                      I don't have a specific quote, as this is more in
                      the way of an impression I obtain in the reading.
                      Although the universe, in general, tends towards
                      overall chaos [high entropy], the formation of
                      stars, galaxies, and life itself is towards order
                      [low entropy]. I recall reading about the
                      philosophical/religious outlook of the ancient
                      Sumerians. In that they initiated the dualist
                      idea of good and evil which I would put in terms
                      of order and chaos respectively. The Egyptians
                      had the same sort of outlook, with the pharaoh
                      being the protector of society against chaos.
                      From there one could develop a personal philosophy
                      based upon our purpose as being to maintain and
                      propagate order. This seems more pleasing than a
                      simple purpose of propagating ourselves, as
                      humans, through reproduction and such. Perhaps
                      one could also look at it from an Existentialist
                      viewpoint in that our choices produce ever
                      increasing order. It fits as well with the idea
                      that our choices are made for everyone.

                      << Your perspective on Gibbon makes him sound like
                      a duck.>>

                      I don't understand this last comment.

                      eduard
                    • elbookdoc
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 6, 2002
                        << Your perspective on Gibbon makes him sound like
                        > a duck.>>
                        >
                        > I don't understand this last comment.>>

                        Ducks go Quack.

                        Mr. Mallard
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