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Re: [existlist] Mind theories -From John Searle

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  • Cris
    Hi: I realize that the note that I sent previously, seemd to very religious, but I was just following up on a past discusion. The critique on Sarte and
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 6, 2001
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      Hi:
      I realize that the note that I sent previously, seemd to very religious, but I was just following up on a past discusion.
      The critique on Sarte and Heidegger is their covert religiousness, that is very difficult to discuss.

      Now I would like to start with the Mind theories of John Serale, in Philosophy and the real world, 1998, bsic books. with a first quote: (considering the neural firing etc.)

      Quote:
      A clash of default positions
      The Mind Body Problem
      Consciousness has for many centuries seemed to philosphers to pose no serious problems in metaphysics. How is it possible that the world consisting entirely of material particles in fields of force can contain systems of material particles in fields of force can contain systems that are conscious? If you think of consciousness as some separate, mysterious kind of phenomenon, distinct from material or physical reality, then it looks like you are forced to what is traditionally called "dualism," the idea that there are two basically different kinds of phenomena or entities in the universe. But if you try to deny dualism and deny that consciousness exists as something irreducibly subjective, then it looks like your are forced to materialism.
      You are forced to think consciousness, as I have decribed it, and as we all in fact experience it, does not really exist. If you are a materialist, then you are forced to say that there really isn't scuh a thing as consciousness with a first person, subjective ontology. Many materialist continue to use the vocabulary of consciousness, but it is quite clear that they mean something different by it. Both of these views, dualism and materialism, are quite commen in philosophy to this very day.
       Dualism comes in two flavors, substance dualism and property dualism. According to substance dualism, there are two radically different kinds of entities in the universe, material objects and immaterial minds.
      This view goes back to ancient times, but it was most famously advocated by Rene Descartes in the seventeenth century; indeed, substance dualism is sometime call Cartesian dualism after him. Property dualism is the view that there are two kinds of properties of objects that are metaphysically distinct. There are physical properties, such as weighing three pounds, and mental properties, such as pain. All form of dualism share the view that the two types are mutually exclusive. If it is mental, it can't, qua mental, be phuysical; if it is physical it cant qua [hysical be mental.
       Many philosphers today still adhere to some form of dualism, though it is usually property dualism rather than substance dualism. But most practicing philosophers adhere to some form of materialism.
      They do not believe there is such a thing as consciousness" over and above" the physical features of the physical world. Materialism comes in many different varieties, and I won't even try to list all of them, but there are some famous examples:
           Behaviorism says that mind reduces to behavior and dispositions to behavior. For example, to be in pain is just to engage in pain behavior or to be disposed to engage in pain behavior or to be disposed to engage in such a behavior.
          Physicalism says that mental states are just brain states. For example, to be in pain is just to have your C fibers stimulated.
          Functionalism says mental states are defined by their causal relations. According to functionalism, any state of a physical system, whether brain or anything else, that stands in the right causal relations to imput stimuli, to other functional states of the system, and to out put behavior, is a mental state. For example, to be in pain is to be in a state that is caused by certain sorts of stimulation of the peripherical verve endings and, in turn, causes certain sorts of behavior and certain sorts of other functional states.
      Strong Artifical Intelligence says minds are just computer programs implemented in brains, and perhaps in other sorts of computers as well. For example, to be in pain is just to be implementing the computer programm for pain.
      Enduqote
      pages 45 to 46
      The mind is a product of the mind, but the individual mind exists, as a material element.
      I willn further copy a couple of pages where Searle solves this dualism.
      Cris


    • Edward Alf
      hi Cris et al, i find your dissertation very difficult to follow ... im not sure if you can keep splitting up dualism in that fashion ... the way i see it,
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 6, 2001
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        hi Cris et al,
         
        i find your dissertation very difficult to follow ... im not sure if you can keep splitting up "dualism" in that fashion ...
         
        the way i see it, the fundamental question is whether the brain (as a collection of neurons) can be portioned into mind and consciousness ... what is it that really makes us human ... can one say that all those sparks flying around makes up the sum total of all that we are ... if that were the case, then it might be possible to store our brain functions in a computer and we could exist forever in cyberspace ... alternatively can it be true that when we die and the sparks diminish to zero, that something like a soul emerges from the body ... like the Ba (or is it Ka) in the egyptian concept of the dead ... i think that it was Patrick who brought up the point of reductionism ... once we get down to the simple firing of neurons .. is that all there is? ... my own opinion (as it is now) is that neuron firing is indeed all that there is ... there is no soul or a special thing called consciousness ... it is just a bunch of neurons ... to suggest that there is a soul, i believe is the height of human egoism ...
         
        have fun
         
        eduard
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Cris
        Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 6:11 PM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Mind theories -From John Searle


        Hi:
        I realize that the note that I sent previously, seemd to very religious, but I was just following up on a past discusion.
        The critique on Sarte and Heidegger is their covert religiousness, that is very difficult to discuss.

        Now I would like to start with the Mind theories of John Serale, in Philosophy and the real world, 1998, bsic books. with a first quote: (considering the neural firing etc.)

        Quote:
        A clash of default positions
        The Mind Body Problem
        Consciousness has for many centuries seemed to philosphers to pose no serious problems in metaphysics. How is it possible that the world consisting entirely of material particles in fields of force can contain systems of material particles in fields of force can contain systems that are conscious? If you think of consciousness as some separate, mysterious kind of phenomenon, distinct from material or physical reality, then it looks like you are forced to what is traditionally called "dualism," the idea that there are two basically different kinds of phenomena or entities in the universe. But if you try to deny dualism and deny that consciousness exists as something irreducibly subjective, then it looks like your are forced to materialism.
        You are forced to think consciousness, as I have decribed it, and as we all in fact experience it, does not really exist. If you are a materialist, then you are forced to say that there really isn't scuh a thing as consciousness with a first person, subjective ontology. Many materialist continue to use the vocabulary of consciousness, but it is quite clear that they mean something different by it. Both of these views, dualism and materialism, are quite commen in philosophy to this very day.
         Dualism comes in two flavors, substance dualism and property dualism. According to substance dualism, there are two radically different kinds of entities in the universe, material objects and immaterial minds.
        This view goes back to ancient times, but it was most famously advocated by Rene Descartes in the seventeenth century; indeed, substance dualism is sometime call Cartesian dualism after him. Property dualism is the view that there are two kinds of properties of objects that are metaphysically distinct. There are physical properties, such as weighing three pounds, and mental properties, such as pain. All form of dualism share the view that the two types are mutually exclusive. If it is mental, it can't, qua mental, be phuysical; if it is physical it cant qua [hysical be mental.
         Many philosphers today still adhere to some form of dualism, though it is usually property dualism rather than substance dualism. But most practicing philosophers adhere to some form of materialism.
        They do not believe there is such a thing as consciousness" over and above" the physical features of the physical world. Materialism comes in many different varieties, and I won't even try to list all of them, but there are some famous examples:
             Behaviorism says that mind reduces to behavior and dispositions to behavior. For example, to be in pain is just to engage in pain behavior or to be disposed to engage in pain behavior or to be disposed to engage in such a behavior.
            Physicalism says that mental states are just brain states. For example, to be in pain is just to have your C fibers stimulated.
            Functionalism says mental states are defined by their causal relations. According to functionalism, any state of a physical system, whether brain or anything else, that stands in the right causal relations to imput stimuli, to other functional states of the system, and to out put behavior, is a mental state. For example, to be in pain is to be in a state that is caused by certain sorts of stimulation of the peripherical verve endings and, in turn, causes certain sorts of behavior and certain sorts of other functional states.
        Strong Artifical Intelligence says minds are just computer programs implemented in brains, and perhaps in other sorts of computers as well. For example, to be in pain is just to be implementing the computer programm for pain.
        Enduqote
        pages 45 to 46
        The mind is a product of the mind, but the individual mind exists, as a material element.
        I willn further copy a couple of pages where Searle solves this dualism.
        Cris




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