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Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith

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  • james tan
    yes, i think it fits the bill. james. From: Christopher Bobo Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com To: Wisdom Forum
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 20, 2002
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      yes, i think it fits the bill.

      james.


      From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith
      Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:57:32 -0700


      James:

      You're comment that some Muslims are still in denial that 9/11 was committed
      by Muslims, even after Osama's videotaped admissions and all the terrorist
      materials captured from Al Qaeda hideouts in Afghanistan that made specific
      reference to American targets seems rather remarkable. Wouldn't you say
      that this is a clear manifestation of "bad faith" in the Sartrean sense of
      deceiving oneself. This perhaps is a clear indication that bad faith
      depends on emotionalism, prejudice and a form of willful ignorance and as
      such is the opposite of rationality.

      Chris
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: james tan
      Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:28 AM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Ignorance and Terror


      eduard,

      no problem. it seems some of the muslims are still in denial tt the 911 was
      committed by muslims. evidences produced were never good enough. i guess
      even if osama tell them in their face, they would have denied also. well,
      let them live in their own world.

      faris seem to me concerned that a bad connotation may get attached to the
      label 'muslim' for good if the press keep using 'muslim radicals'. he finds
      tt terrorism committed by muslims are really political in nature (well, i
      guess he knows, but i dont know how he knows, and it is good enough for me
      that he claims so, i will just take his words for it - by this time, this
      topic is getting a bit tiresome), so he doesnt like the idea of using the
      adjective 'muslim' in front of 'radicals'. well?!! so be it. i respect tt
      fellow though, among the many muslims i interact in tt forum: he is
      intelligent, cool mannered, rational, and 'unduly' polite/courteous, esp
      considering tt i am a 'infidel' (in most of their eyes, and in front of a
      infidel, some of the muslims feel they have the religious obligation to
      condemn/scold/curse/shout; well, i would have thought it is the case as i
      have enough negative encounters with them, but people like faris seem the
      exception and disprove the perception).

      well, well.

      james.




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    • james tan
      my dear allah, i must have poked some nerves somewhere...thanks for ur compliments, encik abdul halim, by jumping up so high. james. From: Abdul Halim Abdul
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 21, 2002
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        my dear allah, i must have poked some nerves somewhere...thanks for ur
        compliments, encik abdul halim, by jumping up so high.

        james.

        From: Abdul Halim Abdul Karim <ahalim@...>
        Reply-To: Fateha@yahoogroups.com
        To: Fateha@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Fateha] Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith
        Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:01:57 +0800

        yeah it fits the bill alright....when the western world and some secularised
        anglicised fool like yourselves refuse to ask the many questions regarding
        911....like I said, Monica and Clinton = inquiry leading to impeachment of
        the
        President...But when 4 passenger airliners crash killing thousands nobody
        investigates, forged ids were overlooked (and the reports that the one
        responsible for these forged ids have fled to Israel - bother to check this
        one
        out??), black boxes overlooked, well known air-industry procedures on
        hijacking
        were overlooked, satelite and state of the art air defences failure also
        overlooked, investigations into the Anthrax letters which were purposely
        pinned
        on Muslims are all hush-hush now and the investigation on the shorting of
        the
        Stock Markets prior to 911 (which Bush said he will look into) also
        overlooked
        and on top of that the clear fore-knowledge of dear old Bush himself of 911
        attacks is also conveniently swept under the carpet... and then now people
        like
        you, James and your fellow fools, harp on the video which anybody proficient
        in
        Arabic ( and I am sure you know zip about Arabic) knows is a farce. And now
        the
        recent gassed dog video again from mysterious sources all pinned on the
        Muslims
        once again... Bad faith indeed.... you make Sartre proud because your
        self-deception is beyond the point of delusional.

        james tan wrote:

        > yes, i think it fits the bill.
        >
        > james.
        >
        > From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
        > Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        > To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith
        > Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:57:32 -0700
        >
        > James:
        >
        > You're comment that some Muslims are still in denial that 9/11 was
        committed
        > by Muslims, even after Osama's videotaped admissions and all the
        terrorist
        > materials captured from Al Qaeda hideouts in Afghanistan that made
        specific
        > reference to American targets seems rather remarkable. Wouldn't you say
        > that this is a clear manifestation of "bad faith" in the Sartrean sense
        of
        > deceiving oneself. This perhaps is a clear indication that bad faith
        > depends on emotionalism, prejudice and a form of willful ignorance and as
        > such is the opposite of rationality.
        >
        > Chris
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: james tan
        > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:28 AM
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [WisdomForum] Ignorance and Terror
        >
        > eduard,
        >
        > no problem. it seems some of the muslims are still in denial tt the 911
        > was[[[[[[








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      • daniel_needles
        Hello, I have two problems with conspiracy theories especially involving the government as mentioned below. 1. They assume competency. A few of my relatives
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 21, 2002
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          Hello,

          I have two problems with conspiracy theories especially involving the
          government as mentioned below.

          1. They assume competency.
          A few of my relatives work for the US government and as a non-
          competative entity their main motivation was to spend more time with
          their families. (Not a bad motivation mind you but it definitely
          impacts competency.)

          2. They assume someone care about you.
          Most conspiracies I've ran into as a consultant for fortune 100
          companies were personal in nature. The recent events with World Com
          and others high lights this. They were out to benifit themselves at
          the expense of others NOT to do in the other side at high risk and
          low reward.

          On another note the company I am currently working at --- Applied
          Materials has major offices in both Isreal and Indian. The sentaments
          shown below -- i.e. they're out to get us and go to great lengths to
          do it -- were exactly the same sentiments expressed by my Isrealli co-
          workers about Arabs and Palistinans.

          It in fact amazes me how similar they are. Perhaps it is a point upon
          which a joint understanding could be raised

          -- paranoia and a lack of soul searching before knee jerk shifting
          blame to the other guy.

          Waiting for a vast conspiracy plot to jahad me now because the world
          revolves around me 8~)

          Thanks,
          Daniel

          --- In existlist@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
          >
          > my dear allah, i must have poked some nerves somewhere...thanks for
          ur
          > compliments, encik abdul halim, by jumping up so high.
          >
          > james.
          >
          > From: Abdul Halim Abdul Karim <ahalim@p...>
          > Reply-To: Fateha@y...
          > To: Fateha@y...
          > Subject: [Fateha] Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith
          > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:01:57 +0800
          >
          > yeah it fits the bill alright....when the western world and some
          secularised
          > anglicised fool like yourselves refuse to ask the many questions
          regarding
          > 911....like I said, Monica and Clinton = inquiry leading to
          impeachment of
          > the
          > President...But when 4 passenger airliners crash killing thousands
          nobody
          > investigates, forged ids were overlooked (and the reports that the
          one
          > responsible for these forged ids have fled to Israel - bother to
          check this
          > one
          > out??), black boxes overlooked, well known air-industry procedures
          on
          > hijacking
          > were overlooked, satelite and state of the art air defences failure
          also
          > overlooked, investigations into the Anthrax letters which were
          purposely
          > pinned
          > on Muslims are all hush-hush now and the investigation on the
          shorting of
          > the
          > Stock Markets prior to 911 (which Bush said he will look into) also
          > overlooked
          > and on top of that the clear fore-knowledge of dear old Bush
          himself of 911
          > attacks is also conveniently swept under the carpet... and then now
          people
          > like
          > you, James and your fellow fools, harp on the video which anybody
          proficient
          > in
          > Arabic ( and I am sure you know zip about Arabic) knows is a farce.
          And now
          > the
          > recent gassed dog video again from mysterious sources all pinned on
          the
          > Muslims
          > once again... Bad faith indeed.... you make Sartre proud because
          your
          > self-deception is beyond the point of delusional.
          >
          > james tan wrote:
          >
          > > yes, i think it fits the bill.
          > >
          > > james.
          > >
          > > From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@m...>
          > > Reply-To: WisdomForum@y...
          > > To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@y...>
          > > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith
          > > Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:57:32 -0700
          > >
          > > James:
          > >
          > > You're comment that some Muslims are still in denial that 9/11
          was
          > committed
          > > by Muslims, even after Osama's videotaped admissions and all the
          > terrorist
          > > materials captured from Al Qaeda hideouts in Afghanistan that
          made
          > specific
          > > reference to American targets seems rather remarkable. Wouldn't
          you say
          > > that this is a clear manifestation of "bad faith" in the
          Sartrean sense
          > of
          > > deceiving oneself. This perhaps is a clear indication that bad
          faith
          > > depends on emotionalism, prejudice and a form of willful
          ignorance and as
          > > such is the opposite of rationality.
          > >
          > > Chris
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: james tan
          > > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:28 AM
          > > To: existlist@y...
          > > Subject: [WisdomForum] Ignorance and Terror
          > >
          > > eduard,
          > >
          > > no problem. it seems some of the muslims are still in denial tt
          the 911
          > > was[[[[[[
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
          > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
        • eduard
          Daniel, I agree totally. We tend to give too much credit to government or whomever we may suspect of conducting a conspiracy. But then perhaps it is the
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 21, 2002
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            Daniel,

            I agree totally. We tend to give too much credit
            to government or whomever we may suspect of
            conducting a conspiracy. But then perhaps it is
            the incapability that we should really fear ...

            eduard

            -----Original Message-----
            From: daniel_needles
            [mailto:Daniel.Needles@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:50 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Conspiracy Theories


            Hello,

            I have two problems with conspiracy theories
            especially involving the
            government as mentioned below.

            1. They assume competency.
            A few of my relatives work for the US government
            and as a non-
            competative entity their main motivation was to
            spend more time with
            their families. (Not a bad motivation mind you but
            it definitely
            impacts competency.)

            2. They assume someone care about you.
            Most conspiracies I've ran into as a consultant
            for fortune 100
            companies were personal in nature. The recent
            events with World Com
            and others high lights this. They were out to
            benifit themselves at
            the expense of others NOT to do in the other side
            at high risk and
            low reward.

            On another note the company I am currently working
            at --- Applied
            Materials has major offices in both Isreal and
            Indian. The sentaments
            shown below -- i.e. they're out to get us and go
            to great lengths to
            do it -- were exactly the same sentiments
            expressed by my Isrealli co-
            workers about Arabs and Palistinans.

            It in fact amazes me how similar they are. Perhaps
            it is a point upon
            which a joint understanding could be raised

            -- paranoia and a lack of soul searching before
            knee jerk shifting
            blame to the other guy.

            Waiting for a vast conspiracy plot to jahad me now
            because the world
            revolves around me 8~)

            Thanks,
            Daniel
          • daniel_needles
            ... Edward, Yep, What we stare at rarely bites us. During the Y2K fiasco I worried more about my co-programmers that were writting back doors into their
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 21, 2002
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              --- In existlist@y..., "eduard" <yeoman@v...> wrote:
              Edward,

              Yep, What we stare at rarely bites us.

              During the Y2K fiasco I worried more about my co-programmers that
              were writting back doors into their software patches as they
              installed them across many company's within a given market sector.

              Everyone was so paranoid about Y2K that they forgot to watch the
              basics. However, it was a great way to justify an upgrade. I saw more
              than one previously rejected PO get accepted because Y2K was scrawled
              in the margin 8~)

              Thanks,
              Daniel

              > Daniel,
              >
              > I agree totally. We tend to give too much credit
              > to government or whomever we may suspect of
              > conducting a conspiracy. But then perhaps it is
              > the incapability that we should really fear ...
              >
              > eduard
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: daniel_needles
              > [mailto:Daniel.Needles@C...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:50 PM
              > To: existlist@y...
              > Subject: [existlist] Conspiracy Theories
              >
              >
              > Hello,
              >
              > I have two problems with conspiracy theories
              > especially involving the
              > government as mentioned below.
              >
              > 1. They assume competency.
              > A few of my relatives work for the US government
              > and as a non-
              > competative entity their main motivation was to
              > spend more time with
              > their families. (Not a bad motivation mind you but
              > it definitely
              > impacts competency.)
              >
              > 2. They assume someone care about you.
              > Most conspiracies I've ran into as a consultant
              > for fortune 100
              > companies were personal in nature. The recent
              > events with World Com
              > and others high lights this. They were out to
              > benifit themselves at
              > the expense of others NOT to do in the other side
              > at high risk and
              > low reward.
              >
              > On another note the company I am currently working
              > at --- Applied
              > Materials has major offices in both Isreal and
              > Indian. The sentaments
              > shown below -- i.e. they're out to get us and go
              > to great lengths to
              > do it -- were exactly the same sentiments
              > expressed by my Isrealli co-
              > workers about Arabs and Palistinans.
              >
              > It in fact amazes me how similar they are. Perhaps
              > it is a point upon
              > which a joint understanding could be raised
              >
              > -- paranoia and a lack of soul searching before
              > knee jerk shifting
              > blame to the other guy.
              >
              > Waiting for a vast conspiracy plot to jahad me now
              > because the world
              > revolves around me 8~)
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Daniel
            • james tan
              thanks for the thoughtful response. my take of things is this: the truth will eventually come out, it is a matter of time, even if it is concealed by the
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 21, 2002
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                thanks for the thoughtful response.

                my take of things is this: the truth will eventually come out, it is a
                matter of time, even if it is concealed by the western media or arab muslim
                media or whatnots. unless one is living in a totally closed society, like
                what china communist used to be, where all external sources of news are shut
                off, the truth will come out. the very efficient nazis made their best
                efforts to conceal, even if it meant silencing the remaining survivors under
                their control during their last days, but the holocaust is now something
                everybody accept as historical. the former kgb controlled the news media,
                dictate what is 'true' and 'untrue', but the newspaper or radio they
                produced were not read or listened to by any russians, perhaps not even by
                the kgb members themselves. this concerns the journalistic integrity of a
                newspaper (or any reports, govt, private, etc): do they try their best,
                within human capability, to be impartial and objective in reporting what
                they know? what is the extent of subjective evaluation/interpretation in any
                piece of news? do they openly reveal the limitation?

                like u say, there are some things that will never be known (unless u
                yourself had been there at the scene, of course u may not live to tell, but
                even if u live to tell, u may never also convince those who refuse to
                believe, maybe coming out with something like ur perception is selective, as
                if they know better). we have some evidences here and there, but they may
                have been so insufficient as to form definitive conclusion/inference. to
                this it can only be left open ended. but it is also to this that is open to
                the influences of one's stance, beliefs, views. things here get a little
                shaddy. but if evidences are clear and sufficient and they still reject
                that, it is a phenomenon that is very familiar to psychologists: it is what
                we call denial. we see them happening all the time with neurotic and
                psychotic patients. such pathology is just a matter of degree of
                seriousness.

                the consumers of news are not stupid, one can bluff them once or twice, but
                eventually they will get the picture. we have many sources of news, the bbc,
                cnn, newsweek, times, wall streets, etc. we have the internet, the radio,
                the world seems open. there dont seem to be a lack of information, rather an
                explosion of information. there is no way a newspaper can provide distorted
                information without losing the people's faith in its ability to provide
                reliable & factual information, a matter of time.

                why do some muslims refuse to accept the news that it was osama and company
                who committed those atrocity not befitting of a decent human being? it has
                to do with cognitive dissonance. it is painful to know that one's brothers
                are capable of such horrible acts; it is emotional pain, it is spiritual
                pain; it is inconsistent with their views of what islam is all about & how
                their ummah is supposed to be. the sense of being victimied as a race or
                religion all along does not help. one way (out of many) to get out of this
                dissonance is to deny those evidences. denial can be a very hostile
                activity, & it is essentially a defensive one, and on the surface may seem
                intellectual by questioning the credibility of sources all the time, and no
                matter how well u try to show more evidences, they will chronically,
                compulsively, obsessively further question; be mentally prepared for a
                infinite regress if u have the time with them. there is nothing clinical
                like a bad faith. instead of courageously facing the facts and make a public
                stance about their identity, they confluence with these arab terrorist
                muslims and sought the easy way out: deny. it is a way of avoiding such
                emotional agony and embarrassement over the atrocity by avoiding facts. the
                trouble is tt these muslims may find that the pretence has been in the
                pretending and that, in a more real way than he had bargained for, he has
                actually lapsed into that very shame he has so much dreaded, in which he has
                become stripped of his sense of autonomy, reality, life, identity. in his
                effort to deny, his anxiety creeps backs more intensely than ever.

                i am also not sure to what extent is this correspondent's view of osama is.
                this can only be found out by survey.

                excuse me, i cant address the more philosophical pts of ur posts.

                james.



                From: "swmaerske" <swmirsky@...>
                Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith
                Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:55:32 -0000

                It seems, from the text you've reprinted below, that there is a clear
                divide here. Two views diametrically opposed and each embracing its
                own "vision".

                The claims being made in this text are so outrageous as to be beyond
                the pale. And yet they are clearly believed by this fellow. On what
                does he base his beliefs? On what do we base ours? None of us were
                physically present in the planes. None of us, apparently, knew the
                players or who they were really connected to. Everything we have is
                second-hand through other sources: government reports, news items,
                etc. I recall once, when I was young, that there was a group who
                denied men had walked on the moon soon after that event occurred.
                They explained everything we saw on the tv as an elaborate hoax,
                cooked up by the government. The moonscape and the image of men upon
                it were all said to be done on a secret soundstage maintained by the
                government. How could anyone deny this? Unless we'd actually been
                there, in person, at the events involved, how could we ever actually
                know the truth? How could we be sure we weren't being fooled?

                It seems to me the same thing is at play here. This correspondent of
                yours has apparently listened to news reports quite different from
                what the mainstream Western media are carrying. Everything we have
                seen is explained away via a completely different "take" on the
                reality. Osama and company didn't really do it despite the videos.
                You and I don't speak Arabic (or if we did it would never be granted
                that we spoke it well enough since Arabic is such a difficult
                language!) and so one need not believe the videos! The dog video (I
                couldn't watch, as I found it so heartbreaking . . . I happen to be a
                dog lover of the first order), well that's a fake too. And what about
                all those claims about missing evidence, aborted investigations, Bush
                really knowing? How do you argue with this kind of stuff? It's like
                arguing with flat earthers who don't accept the evidence of air
                travel, etc. Or of so-called holocaust deniers who find it convenient
                to deny or explain away all those facts uncovered against the Nazis
                after their defeat in World War II!

                Is there an epistemological issue here? More, how do we know what is
                really real? Could these Muslims who make these (to us) absurd
                assertions have any legitimate grounds for making these claims? Or is
                it all just in their own minds? And, if so, can any of us ever really
                know anything?

                On one level this speaks to the Popperian issue, doesn't it? I gather
                that Popper was arguing for a world of ultimate uncertainty where we
                built up our little edifices of certainty through trial and error but
                could never be certain the edifices would hold. This gentleman with
                whom you are corresponding may not be a Popperian, but I'll bet he's
                pretty certain based on what he's chosen to accept as testimony and
                what to deny. On that basis, how can we tell him he's wrong? Sure
                there are empirical facts we can adduce. But he spins the bare facts
                quite differently, evidencing a very different background theory than
                we accept.

                You, James, and I come from very different parts of the world and no
                doubt have very different experiences to draw on. And yet we both
                seem to have no problem buying into the same "reality" more or less.
                Chris has indicated he shares our view, too, though Tommy seems more
                at ease with the view presented by your interlocutor although even he
                has not denied, to my recollection, that the events of 9/11 were done
                by self-avowed Muslim terrorists . . . he just sees some level of
                justification in what they did.

                But this gentleman offers a more radical response: what happened was
                the work of others including Israelis and even, perhaps, the American
                President himself. No way you can pin it on Muslims in his mind no
                matter what the apparent evidence because, to him, anything which
                avers something contrary to what he believe would necessarily be
                fake! Or so he would claim. And maybe even believe such a claim
                himself.

                I am quite comfortable that that view is nuts. And I have to wonder
                to what extent people in the Muslim world who support this fellow's
                views are not just consciously or unconsciously deluding themselves!
                But, even so, how do we prove to them (or even show them, if absolute
                proof is impossible) that they have got it all wrong. If they really
                do believe such drivel, for that it is, unless I am completely insane
                and mired in a nightmarishly unreal world where nothing is as it
                seems, then how do you show them they are wrong?

                And can we ever show anyone they are wrong about anything? Or is it,
                finally, just a matter of knowing, of seeing things as they are? In
                which case, how do we ensure that what we see is real and what they
                see is not?

                SWM

                --- In WisdomForum@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
                >
                > my dear allah, i must have poked some nerves somewhere...thanks for
                ur
                > compliments, encik abdul halim, by jumping up so high.
                >
                > james.
                >
                > From: Abdul Halim Abdul Karim <ahalim@p...>
                > Reply-To: Fateha@y...
                > To: Fateha@y...
                > Subject: [Fateha] Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith
                > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:01:57 +0800
                >
                > yeah it fits the bill alright....when the western world and some
                secularised
                > anglicised fool like yourselves refuse to ask the many questions
                regarding
                > 911....like I said, Monica and Clinton = inquiry leading to
                impeachment of
                > the
                > President...But when 4 passenger airliners crash killing thousands
                nobody
                > investigates, forged ids were overlooked (and the reports that the
                one
                > responsible for these forged ids have fled to Israel - bother to
                check this
                > one
                > out??), black boxes overlooked, well known air-industry procedures
                on
                > hijacking
                > were overlooked, satelite and state of the art air defences failure
                also
                > overlooked, investigations into the Anthrax letters which were
                purposely
                > pinned
                > on Muslims are all hush-hush now and the investigation on the
                shorting of
                > the
                > Stock Markets prior to 911 (which Bush said he will look into) also
                > overlooked
                > and on top of that the clear fore-knowledge of dear old Bush
                himself of 911
                > attacks is also conveniently swept under the carpet... and then now
                people
                > like
                > you, James and your fellow fools, harp on the video which anybody
                proficient
                > in
                > Arabic ( and I am sure you know zip about Arabic) knows is a farce.
                And now
                > the
                > recent gassed dog video again from mysterious sources all pinned on
                the
                > Muslims
                > once again... Bad faith indeed.... you make Sartre proud because
                your
                > self-deception is beyond the point of delusional.
                >
                > james tan wrote:
                >
                > > yes, i think it fits the bill.
                > >
                > > james.
                > >
                > > From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@m...>
                > > Reply-To: WisdomForum@y...
                > > To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@y...>
                > > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith
                > > Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:57:32 -0700
                > >
                > > James:
                > >
                > > You're comment that some Muslims are still in denial that 9/11
                was
                > committed
                > > by Muslims, even after Osama's videotaped admissions and all the
                > terrorist
                > > materials captured from Al Qaeda hideouts in Afghanistan that
                made
                > specific
                > > reference to American targets seems rather remarkable. Wouldn't
                you say
                > > that this is a clear manifestation of "bad faith" in the
                Sartrean sense
                > of
                > > deceiving oneself. This perhaps is a clear indication that bad
                faith
                > > depends on emotionalism, prejudice and a form of willful
                ignorance and as
                > > such is the opposite of rationality.
                > >
                > > Chris
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: james tan
                > > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:28 AM
                > > To: existlist@y...
                > > Subject: [WisdomForum] Ignorance and Terror
                > >
                > > eduard,
                > >
                > > no problem. it seems some of the muslims are still in denial tt
                the 911
                > > was[[[[[[
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
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              • james tan
                swm, strictly speaking, no. what chris said is one possibility. james. From: Christopher Bobo Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com To:
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 22, 2002
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                  swm,

                  strictly speaking, no.

                  what chris said is one possibility.

                  james.


                  From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                  Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                  To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith
                  Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:31:21 -0700

                  I think that what lies behind this phenomena of denial is not mental illness
                  but close-minded ignorance, or in other worlds, commitment to a total
                  ideology. What differentiates these people from others is that their being
                  in the world is not characterized with what Heidegger might call "care",
                  they are not concerned to get things right or to appreciate the world as it
                  is; rather, there aim is to make the world, or transform it. Thus, their
                  constant concern is not whether was they say or do corresponds to reflect or
                  reflects true belief, but rather, whether their thoughts and deeds advance
                  their ideology. If admitting that 9/11 was committed by Muslims will
                  detract from the cause of their total belief system--i.e., Islam--then it is
                  denied. Perhaps this is what Marx meant when he said that religion is the
                  opiate of the people. It deadens the mind to truth and reality, as Marxism
                  itself did, thereby revealing the truth that it is not religion per se that
                  has this effect, but the dogged adherence to a total belief system of any
                  kind.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: swmaerske
                  Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 3:48 AM
                  To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Ignorance and Terror=Bad Faith

                  James said: "it is a phenomenon that is very familiar to
                  psychologists: it is what we call denial. we see them happening all
                  the time with neurotic and psychotic patients. such pathology is just
                  a matter of degree of seriousness."

                  So are those parts of a community, any community, that engage in the
                  above to be described in some fashion as neurotic or even
                  pathological? Can we even describe a group of people like that and
                  not just refer to individuals when using such a term? (I do recall
                  that that writer in the Wall Street Journal article I posted here did
                  that.) Do you think that's a legitimate use of that terminolgy?

                  SWM




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                • Bill Harris
                  Eduard, I was sad to hear of the retirement of your prime minister, I know you held him in high regard. Recently we were discussing drugs and the law. At our
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 22, 2002
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                    Eduard, I was sad to hear of the retirement of your prime minister, I know
                    you held him in high regard.
                    Recently we were discussing drugs and the law. At our state fair I met an
                    old friend whom I will call Cat. He is a black indian, now better than 70
                    years old. He grew up a street tough in Denver, where he delt and pimped. He
                    got in his own bag and got hooked on smack. They couldn't get him off the
                    junk so they threw him in the hole in Canyon City for a year. When he got
                    out he became an alcoholic AA did him no good and the only way he could
                    stay sober was to smoke weed. He smoked it and delt it for years Up to last
                    week I only knew the stoned Cat and he was cool. One time I saw him drunk
                    and he was one bad asshole Last week he was straight He told me he took a
                    trip to Jamaica and when he saw how his black brothers lived he just didn`t
                    want to smoke anymore. Now he worries about getting to work on time as a
                    carney vinder. He has HepC and probably wont last much longer Maybe I`ll
                    see him at the fair next year, and maybe I wont. Bill.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "eduard" <yeoman@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:20 PM
                    Subject: RE: [existlist] Conspiracy Theories


                    > Daniel,
                    >
                    > I agree totally. We tend to give too much credit
                    > to government or whomever we may suspect of
                    > conducting a conspiracy. But then perhaps it is
                    > the incapability that we should really fear ...
                    >
                    > eduard
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: daniel_needles
                    > [mailto:Daniel.Needles@...]
                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:50 PM
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [existlist] Conspiracy Theories
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello,
                    >
                    > I have two problems with conspiracy theories
                    > especially involving the
                    > government as mentioned below.
                    >
                    > 1. They assume competency.
                    > A few of my relatives work for the US government
                    > and as a non-
                    > competative entity their main motivation was to
                    > spend more time with
                    > their families. (Not a bad motivation mind you but
                    > it definitely
                    > impacts competency.)
                    >
                    > 2. They assume someone care about you.
                    > Most conspiracies I've ran into as a consultant
                    > for fortune 100
                    > companies were personal in nature. The recent
                    > events with World Com
                    > and others high lights this. They were out to
                    > benifit themselves at
                    > the expense of others NOT to do in the other side
                    > at high risk and
                    > low reward.
                    >
                    > On another note the company I am currently working
                    > at --- Applied
                    > Materials has major offices in both Isreal and
                    > Indian. The sentaments
                    > shown below -- i.e. they're out to get us and go
                    > to great lengths to
                    > do it -- were exactly the same sentiments
                    > expressed by my Isrealli co-
                    > workers about Arabs and Palistinans.
                    >
                    > It in fact amazes me how similar they are. Perhaps
                    > it is a point upon
                    > which a joint understanding could be raised
                    >
                    > -- paranoia and a lack of soul searching before
                    > knee jerk shifting
                    > blame to the other guy.
                    >
                    > Waiting for a vast conspiracy plot to jahad me now
                    > because the world
                    > revolves around me 8~)
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Daniel
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                    >
                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • eduard
                    Bill, Well old Jean just had to go. He was getting on too many people s nerves. But then he is not going until February 2004, so it is certainly not like
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 22, 2002
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                      Bill,

                      Well old Jean just had to go. He was getting on
                      too many people's nerves. But then he is not
                      going until February 2004, so it is certainly not
                      like Trudeau's walk in the snow.

                      If it was a perfect world, there would be no laws
                      on drugs. But it is not perfect and like your
                      friend Cat, things can go one way or the other.
                      Getting to work on time is not necessarily a bad
                      thing ... however, I have a problem with that
                      myself ... :-))

                      eduard
                    • pedro gamba
                      daniel, i don t know if you still remember me. Just want you to know I am back to the group. I am a bit apprehensive of saying a lot since our group has grown
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 23, 2002
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                        daniel,

                        i don't know if you still remember me. Just want you
                        to know I am back to the group. I am a bit
                        apprehensive of saying a lot since our group has grown
                        bigger. I felt I am totally new...many are making alot
                        of sense. And I am ready to get everything started.

                        pete

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                      • daniel_needles
                        Pedro, Don t be do daunted. Except for Bill most of us won t bite. 8~) Yes, I remember you back in June. You were interested in the big Mr. K. I even suggested
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 23, 2002
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                          Pedro,
                          Don't be do daunted. Except for Bill most of us won't bite. 8~)

                          Yes, I remember you back in June. You were interested in the big
                          Mr. K. I even suggested you ask me in a month and its been 2.
                          However, I must admit I didn't do my homework. I have been focusing
                          on other venues currently but Mr. K is still on my list.

                          Please feel free to post. I am very interested in what you have to
                          say.

                          Thanks,
                          Daniel

                          --- In existlist@y..., pedro gamba <sirpete_asian@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > daniel,
                          >
                          > i don't know if you still remember me. Just want you
                          > to know I am back to the group. I am a bit
                          > apprehensive of saying a lot since our group has grown
                          > bigger. I felt I am totally new...many are making alot
                          > of sense. And I am ready to get everything started.
                          >
                          > pete
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
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                        • louise
                          Modest Note to Listowner. TC is starting up again on the theme of persona-generation. First it was Eduard, now it s me. What is going on??? Louise ... made
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 9, 2006
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                            Modest Note to Listowner.

                            TC is starting up again on the theme of persona-generation. First it
                            was Eduard, now it's me. What is going on???

                            Louise
                            ... made of flesh and blood
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