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RE: [existlist] Not so similar...

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  • michael mcguire
    ... Okay. I didn t mean to imply that the brains were any different structurally. I just wanted to mention the significance of culture so as not to let its
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 30, 2002
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      Eduard said:

      >Michael,
      >
      ><< Although, both are wired the same, the
      >plasticity of the mind allows for very different
      >creatures. >>
      >
      >Culture is like the learning phase that children
      >go through. They simply acquire new experiences,
      >but that does not make their brains any different.
      >Neanderthal man painted on cave walls, had
      >religious rituals for death, and took care of sick
      >members of the tribe. That is not much different
      >from what we do today ... we just do more of it
      >...
      >
      >eduard

      Okay. I didn't mean to imply that the brains were any different
      structurally. I just wanted to mention the significance of culture so as not
      to let its importance get buried under pure biology and anatomy. I don't
      actually have an argument w/ you. Culture is much richer now. Yes, we 'do
      more of it.'

      mike


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    • Eduard Alf
      Michael, I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am wondering if culture is actually richer today. I am sitting here
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 30, 2002
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        Michael,

        << Culture is much richer now. >>

        I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am
        wondering if culture is actually richer today. I
        am sitting here pounding on the keyboard; whereas
        Mr. Neanderthal would be dancing around a fire,
        trying to call upon the gods to increase the
        fertility of the tribe. I wonder whose culture is
        richer ... but then that may only be me.

        eduard
      • Bill Harris
        Eduard, Your comparison of the Neanderthal and yourself is a kind of value judgment that has a general merit. It is a way of judging if we are getting any
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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          Eduard, Your comparison of the Neanderthal and yourself is a kind of value
          judgment that has a general merit. It is a way of judging if we are getting
          any better in our attempt to build a better life for ourselves. The "I can
          show ignorance with big words" people may go to great lengths to show the
          primitives as living a superior lifestyle. Give them a stick and let them
          squat by the fire, they will be back to their IBM`s in a week.
          How about a comparison of decadence in the late French monarchy and the
          late 60`s USA. Who was more defiant of the mores of his time, Marquis De
          Sade or Jim Morrison [The doors]? Who was more sexually deviant,
          psychopathic, chaotic and drug ridden. Who was the greater anarchist, who
          deviated more people? Who was the greater sociopath? Which age was more
          decadent? James Tan should have good references on this subject. bill
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:10 PM
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Not so similar...


          > Michael,
          >
          > << Culture is much richer now. >>
          >
          > I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am
          > wondering if culture is actually richer today. I
          > am sitting here pounding on the keyboard; whereas
          > Mr. Neanderthal would be dancing around a fire,
          > trying to call upon the gods to increase the
          > fertility of the tribe. I wonder whose culture is
          > richer ... but then that may only be me.
          >
          > eduard
          >
          >
          >
          > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
          >
          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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          >
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          >
          >
          >
        • Bill Harris
          Eduard, Last night I had a thought about a fusion reactor. Since controlling the reaction seems to be the major problem, would it be possible to put the
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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            Eduard, Last night I had a thought about a fusion reactor. Since controlling
            the reaction seems to be the major problem, would it be possible to put the
            reaction in the deep ocean? The extreme pressures and cold could be used to
            control the reaction? You are the engineer, what is the possibility? Mad
            thoughts in the night, bill
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:10 PM
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Not so similar...


            > Michael,
            >
            > << Culture is much richer now. >>
            >
            > I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am
            > wondering if culture is actually richer today. I
            > am sitting here pounding on the keyboard; whereas
            > Mr. Neanderthal would be dancing around a fire,
            > trying to call upon the gods to increase the
            > fertility of the tribe. I wonder whose culture is
            > richer ... but then that may only be me.
            >
            > eduard
            >
            >
            >
            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Eduard Alf
            Bill,
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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              Bill,

              << people may go to great lengths to show the
              primitives as living a superior lifestyle. Give
              them a stick and let them squat by the fire, they
              will be back to their IBM`s in a week. >>

              Well, lets put it this way ... how much of your
              time [my time] is actually spent in culture. I
              probably spend half my waking hours in front of a
              computer. The thought occurred to me that the
              Neanderthal might spend much more time living his
              culture. Of course that is hard to qualify .. I
              mean whether my computers at home and at work are
              actually culture. But in any case, it would seem
              to me that the Neanderthal might be more
              intimately connected. I would grant that I would
              not like to go back to caveman days ... I am too
              comfortable and protected here.

              eduard
            • Eduard Alf
              Bill, I haven t a clue. I write standards. If you could build the reactor, I could write a standard so that others might do the same ... at least to an order
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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                Bill,

                I haven't a clue. I write standards. If you
                could build the reactor, I could write a standard
                so that others might do the same ... at least to
                an order of acceptability ....

                On second thought, forget it ... I am not keen on
                going down there at a couple thousand atmospheres,
                and trying to put things to words ...

                eduard
              • Bill Harris
                Eduard, I think this qualifies as a cultural activity. It is old stuff to us but the greater number of humans have never indulged themselves in anything like
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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                  Eduard, I think this qualifies as a cultural activity. It is old stuff to us
                  but the greater number of humans have never indulged themselves in anything
                  like this instant pin pal game.
                  I recently heard a noted art critic say that the world of painting is the
                  exercise of valuing dirty canvas against a number of mass produced
                  lithographs in a purely arbitrary fashion. Sometimes we do better than that
                  here. Bill
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 1:09 PM
                  Subject: RE: [existlist] Not so similar...


                  > Bill,
                  >
                  > << people may go to great lengths to show the
                  > primitives as living a superior lifestyle. Give
                  > them a stick and let them squat by the fire, they
                  > will be back to their IBM`s in a week. >>
                  >
                  > Well, lets put it this way ... how much of your
                  > time [my time] is actually spent in culture. I
                  > probably spend half my waking hours in front of a
                  > computer. The thought occurred to me that the
                  > Neanderthal might spend much more time living his
                  > culture. Of course that is hard to qualify .. I
                  > mean whether my computers at home and at work are
                  > actually culture. But in any case, it would seem
                  > to me that the Neanderthal might be more
                  > intimately connected. I would grant that I would
                  > not like to go back to caveman days ... I am too
                  > comfortable and protected here.
                  >
                  > eduard
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                  >
                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                  > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Bill Harris
                  Eduard, I have been to 63meters in scuba gear. That is a surrealistic experience that left me with a two day hangover. I would do it again, but it is big time
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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                    Eduard, I have been to 63meters in scuba gear. That is a surrealistic
                    experience that left me with a two day hangover. I would do it again, but it
                    is big time danger. I was absurd there, fighting nitrogen narcosis, with
                    your eyepieces crushing your orbits. It was all so slow, and I wanted to
                    stay----forever. bill
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 1:19 PM
                    Subject: [existlist] fusion reactor at bottom of sea


                    > Bill,
                    >
                    > I haven't a clue. I write standards. If you
                    > could build the reactor, I could write a standard
                    > so that others might do the same ... at least to
                    > an order of acceptability ....
                    >
                    > On second thought, forget it ... I am not keen on
                    > going down there at a couple thousand atmospheres,
                    > and trying to put things to words ...
                    >
                    > eduard
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                    >
                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • michael mcguire
                    Eduard, Yes, maybe richer isn t the right word exactly. I would have to say, though, that the level of technology that we find in today s culture makes for
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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                      Eduard,

                      Yes, maybe 'richer' isn't the right word exactly. I would have to say,
                      though, that the level of technology that we find in today's culture makes
                      for a more layered or complex cultural milieu.

                      Mike

                      >Michael,
                      >
                      ><< Culture is much richer now. >>
                      >
                      >I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am
                      >wondering if culture is actually richer today. I
                      >am sitting here pounding on the keyboard; whereas
                      >Mr. Neanderthal would be dancing around a fire,
                      >trying to call upon the gods to increase the
                      >fertility of the tribe. I wonder whose culture is
                      >richer ... but then that may only be me.
                      >
                      >eduard
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      >(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                      >
                      >TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                      >existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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                    • Eduard Alf
                      Bill,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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                        Bill,

                        << I think this qualifies as a cultural activity
                        >>

                        I suppose ...

                        I guess I am only reacting to the thought of a
                        Neanderthal, in a pristine earth which has not as
                        yet been damaged. Old Mr. Neanderthal may not
                        have had a computer, but he could drink from any
                        body of water he happened to come across.

                        eduard
                      • Eduard Alf
                        Bill, I have a basic rule ... not to move more than 1m from my present position ... either up or down ... eduard
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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                          Bill,

                          << I have been to 63meters in scuba gear. >>

                          I have a basic rule ... not to move more than 1m
                          from my present position ... either up or down ...

                          eduard
                        • Eduard Alf
                          Michael,
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
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                            Michael,

                            << I would have to say, though, that the level of
                            technology that we find in today's culture makes
                            for a more layered or complex cultural milieu. >>

                            I wonder ...

                            Although I am not exactly conversant with
                            Neanderthals, it would seem to me that
                            "complexity" in anything depends upon what you
                            make of it. If I want something to eat, I just go
                            to the grocery store. Neanderthal would [like a
                            member of First Nations in North America] would go
                            through an involved routine of talking to the gods
                            to ensure a good hunt and would have to arm
                            himself with all the knowledge of the woods, that
                            we don't have a clue about today.

                            eduard
                          • michael mcguire
                            ... Eduard, Good point, I haven t really thought about it from that perspective. mike ... _________________________________________________________________ MSN
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 1, 2002
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                              Eduard typed:

                              >I wonder ...
                              >
                              >Although I am not exactly conversant with
                              >Neanderthals, it would seem to me that
                              >"complexity" in anything depends upon what you
                              >make of it. If I want something to eat, I just go
                              >to the grocery store. Neanderthal would [like a
                              >member of First Nations in North America] would go
                              >through an involved routine of talking to the gods
                              >to ensure a good hunt and would have to arm
                              >himself with all the knowledge of the woods, that
                              >we don't have a clue about today.

                              Eduard,


                              Good point, I haven't really thought about it from that perspective.


                              mike

                              >
                              >eduard
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                              >(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                              >
                              >TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                              >existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >




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                            • Eduard Alf
                              Mike, I saw this documentary on prehistory society in Europe. I think it had to do with that 5000 year old corpse they found in Austria. It showed this guy
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 1, 2002
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                                Mike,

                                I saw this documentary on prehistory society in
                                Europe. I think it had to do with that 5000 year
                                old corpse they found in Austria. It showed this
                                guy going out on a hunt. More often than not,
                                they would make use of kills that were done by
                                wolfs or other predators in the forest. Anyway,
                                here is this guy going out to get the family meal,
                                and he happens upon a stream which he dives into
                                to get clams and crayfish. It made me think that
                                this was not just a special stream ... clear and
                                cool ... but one of any number of streams in his
                                territory. This, at a time when everything was
                                pristine and everything that you needed was right
                                there, as long as you knew where to find it.

                                It makes me think that the complexity of life in
                                those days was perhaps as high or higher than we
                                have today. And what is really attractive about
                                it, is that if something goes wrong, you only have
                                yourself or the gods to blame. And you don't have
                                a landlord or the IRS on your back. It is too bad
                                that we really cant return to those days of
                                yesteryear ....

                                eduard

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: michael mcguire
                                [mailto:signinname01@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:20 PM
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [existlist] Not so similar...


                                Eduard typed:

                                >I wonder ...
                                >
                                >Although I am not exactly conversant with
                                >Neanderthals, it would seem to me that
                                >"complexity" in anything depends upon what you
                                >make of it. If I want something to eat, I just
                                go
                                >to the grocery store. Neanderthal would [like a
                                >member of First Nations in North America] would
                                go
                                >through an involved routine of talking to the
                                gods
                                >to ensure a good hunt and would have to arm
                                >himself with all the knowledge of the woods, that
                                >we don't have a clue about today.

                                Eduard,

                                Good point, I haven't really thought about it from
                                that perspective.

                                mike
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