Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Not so similar...

Expand Messages
  • michael mcguire
    Charles wrote: the human mind has remained the same throughout the ages, it has no evolved in any way whatsoever. Eduard wrote: I agree that nothing much has
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 29, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Charles wrote:

      the human mind has remained the same throughout
      the ages, it has no evolved in any way whatsoever.

      Eduard wrote:

      I agree that nothing much has changed in our brain
      evolution. In fact, part of our problem is that
      we tend to believe that we are different in some
      fashion. The guy who goes to see the Pope in
      Toronto, is the same as the caveman who paints
      buffalos on the cave wall. I should think that
      realising that we are the same as a half million
      years ago, is refreshing and also is releasing.

      Structurally, of course. I think though, that a lot can be said for the
      vast degree of cultural evolution that has taken place with those brains.
      Culturally, we are very far from what we used to be and I think that that
      counts for a great deal when we talk about differences in what we are and
      what we used to be. So, I am not so sure that I can agree that, 'the guy
      who goes to see the Pope in Toronto, is the same as the caveman who paints
      buffalos on the cave wall.' Although, both are wired the same, the
      plasticity of the mind allows for very different creatures.

      mike



      _________________________________________________________________
      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
    • Eduard Alf
      Michael, Culture is like the learning phase that
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 29, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Michael,

        << Although, both are wired the same, the
        plasticity of the mind allows for very different
        creatures. >>

        Culture is like the learning phase that children
        go through. They simply acquire new experiences,
        but that does not make their brains any different.
        Neanderthal man painted on cave walls, had
        religious rituals for death, and took care of sick
        members of the tribe. That is not much different
        from what we do today ... we just do more of it
        ...

        eduard
      • daniel_needles
        Michael, Have you read Fritjof Capra s The Web of Life? Or Modern Thermodynamics: From Heat Engines to Dissipative Structures by D. K. Kondepudi, Ilya
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 30, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Michael,
          Have you read Fritjof Capra's "The Web of Life? Or
          Modern Thermodynamics: From Heat Engines to Dissipative Structures
          by D. K. Kondepudi, Ilya Prigogine?

          They have some good takes on this subject by the reinterpretation of
          enthropy and equilibrium.

          Thanks,
          Daniel



          --- In existlist@y..., "michael mcguire" <signinname01@h...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Charles wrote:
          >
          > the human mind has remained the same throughout
          > the ages, it has no evolved in any way whatsoever.
          >
          > Eduard wrote:
          >
          > I agree that nothing much has changed in our brain
          > evolution. In fact, part of our problem is that
          > we tend to believe that we are different in some
          > fashion. The guy who goes to see the Pope in
          > Toronto, is the same as the caveman who paints
          > buffalos on the cave wall. I should think that
          > realising that we are the same as a half million
          > years ago, is refreshing and also is releasing.
          >
          > Structurally, of course. I think though, that a lot can be said
          for the
          > vast degree of cultural evolution that has taken place with those
          brains.
          > Culturally, we are very far from what we used to be and I think
          that that
          > counts for a great deal when we talk about differences in what we
          are and
          > what we used to be. So, I am not so sure that I can agree
          that, 'the guy
          > who goes to see the Pope in Toronto, is the same as the caveman who
          paints
          > buffalos on the cave wall.' Although, both are wired the same, the
          > plasticity of the mind allows for very different creatures.
          >
          > mike
          >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
          http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
        • michael mcguire
          ... Okay. I didn t mean to imply that the brains were any different structurally. I just wanted to mention the significance of culture so as not to let its
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 30, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Eduard said:

            >Michael,
            >
            ><< Although, both are wired the same, the
            >plasticity of the mind allows for very different
            >creatures. >>
            >
            >Culture is like the learning phase that children
            >go through. They simply acquire new experiences,
            >but that does not make their brains any different.
            >Neanderthal man painted on cave walls, had
            >religious rituals for death, and took care of sick
            >members of the tribe. That is not much different
            >from what we do today ... we just do more of it
            >...
            >
            >eduard

            Okay. I didn't mean to imply that the brains were any different
            structurally. I just wanted to mention the significance of culture so as not
            to let its importance get buried under pure biology and anatomy. I don't
            actually have an argument w/ you. Culture is much richer now. Yes, we 'do
            more of it.'

            mike


            _________________________________________________________________
            MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
            http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
          • michael mcguire
            ... Okay. I didn t mean to imply that the brains were any different structurally. I just wanted to mention the significance of culture so as not to let its
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 30, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Eduard said:

              >Michael,
              >
              ><< Although, both are wired the same, the
              >plasticity of the mind allows for very different
              >creatures. >>
              >
              >Culture is like the learning phase that children
              >go through. They simply acquire new experiences,
              >but that does not make their brains any different.
              >Neanderthal man painted on cave walls, had
              >religious rituals for death, and took care of sick
              >members of the tribe. That is not much different
              >from what we do today ... we just do more of it
              >...
              >
              >eduard

              Okay. I didn't mean to imply that the brains were any different
              structurally. I just wanted to mention the significance of culture so as not
              to let its importance get buried under pure biology and anatomy. I don't
              actually have an argument w/ you. Culture is much richer now. Yes, we 'do
              more of it.'

              mike


              _________________________________________________________________
              MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
              http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
            • Eduard Alf
              Michael, I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am wondering if culture is actually richer today. I am sitting here
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 30, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Michael,

                << Culture is much richer now. >>

                I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am
                wondering if culture is actually richer today. I
                am sitting here pounding on the keyboard; whereas
                Mr. Neanderthal would be dancing around a fire,
                trying to call upon the gods to increase the
                fertility of the tribe. I wonder whose culture is
                richer ... but then that may only be me.

                eduard
              • Bill Harris
                Eduard, Your comparison of the Neanderthal and yourself is a kind of value judgment that has a general merit. It is a way of judging if we are getting any
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Eduard, Your comparison of the Neanderthal and yourself is a kind of value
                  judgment that has a general merit. It is a way of judging if we are getting
                  any better in our attempt to build a better life for ourselves. The "I can
                  show ignorance with big words" people may go to great lengths to show the
                  primitives as living a superior lifestyle. Give them a stick and let them
                  squat by the fire, they will be back to their IBM`s in a week.
                  How about a comparison of decadence in the late French monarchy and the
                  late 60`s USA. Who was more defiant of the mores of his time, Marquis De
                  Sade or Jim Morrison [The doors]? Who was more sexually deviant,
                  psychopathic, chaotic and drug ridden. Who was the greater anarchist, who
                  deviated more people? Who was the greater sociopath? Which age was more
                  decadent? James Tan should have good references on this subject. bill
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:10 PM
                  Subject: RE: [existlist] Not so similar...


                  > Michael,
                  >
                  > << Culture is much richer now. >>
                  >
                  > I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am
                  > wondering if culture is actually richer today. I
                  > am sitting here pounding on the keyboard; whereas
                  > Mr. Neanderthal would be dancing around a fire,
                  > trying to call upon the gods to increase the
                  > fertility of the tribe. I wonder whose culture is
                  > richer ... but then that may only be me.
                  >
                  > eduard
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                  >
                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                  > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Bill Harris
                  Eduard, Last night I had a thought about a fusion reactor. Since controlling the reaction seems to be the major problem, would it be possible to put the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Eduard, Last night I had a thought about a fusion reactor. Since controlling
                    the reaction seems to be the major problem, would it be possible to put the
                    reaction in the deep ocean? The extreme pressures and cold could be used to
                    control the reaction? You are the engineer, what is the possibility? Mad
                    thoughts in the night, bill
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:10 PM
                    Subject: RE: [existlist] Not so similar...


                    > Michael,
                    >
                    > << Culture is much richer now. >>
                    >
                    > I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am
                    > wondering if culture is actually richer today. I
                    > am sitting here pounding on the keyboard; whereas
                    > Mr. Neanderthal would be dancing around a fire,
                    > trying to call upon the gods to increase the
                    > fertility of the tribe. I wonder whose culture is
                    > richer ... but then that may only be me.
                    >
                    > eduard
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                    >
                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Eduard Alf
                    Bill,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Bill,

                      << people may go to great lengths to show the
                      primitives as living a superior lifestyle. Give
                      them a stick and let them squat by the fire, they
                      will be back to their IBM`s in a week. >>

                      Well, lets put it this way ... how much of your
                      time [my time] is actually spent in culture. I
                      probably spend half my waking hours in front of a
                      computer. The thought occurred to me that the
                      Neanderthal might spend much more time living his
                      culture. Of course that is hard to qualify .. I
                      mean whether my computers at home and at work are
                      actually culture. But in any case, it would seem
                      to me that the Neanderthal might be more
                      intimately connected. I would grant that I would
                      not like to go back to caveman days ... I am too
                      comfortable and protected here.

                      eduard
                    • Eduard Alf
                      Bill, I haven t a clue. I write standards. If you could build the reactor, I could write a standard so that others might do the same ... at least to an order
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Bill,

                        I haven't a clue. I write standards. If you
                        could build the reactor, I could write a standard
                        so that others might do the same ... at least to
                        an order of acceptability ....

                        On second thought, forget it ... I am not keen on
                        going down there at a couple thousand atmospheres,
                        and trying to put things to words ...

                        eduard
                      • Bill Harris
                        Eduard, I think this qualifies as a cultural activity. It is old stuff to us but the greater number of humans have never indulged themselves in anything like
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Eduard, I think this qualifies as a cultural activity. It is old stuff to us
                          but the greater number of humans have never indulged themselves in anything
                          like this instant pin pal game.
                          I recently heard a noted art critic say that the world of painting is the
                          exercise of valuing dirty canvas against a number of mass produced
                          lithographs in a purely arbitrary fashion. Sometimes we do better than that
                          here. Bill
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 1:09 PM
                          Subject: RE: [existlist] Not so similar...


                          > Bill,
                          >
                          > << people may go to great lengths to show the
                          > primitives as living a superior lifestyle. Give
                          > them a stick and let them squat by the fire, they
                          > will be back to their IBM`s in a week. >>
                          >
                          > Well, lets put it this way ... how much of your
                          > time [my time] is actually spent in culture. I
                          > probably spend half my waking hours in front of a
                          > computer. The thought occurred to me that the
                          > Neanderthal might spend much more time living his
                          > culture. Of course that is hard to qualify .. I
                          > mean whether my computers at home and at work are
                          > actually culture. But in any case, it would seem
                          > to me that the Neanderthal might be more
                          > intimately connected. I would grant that I would
                          > not like to go back to caveman days ... I am too
                          > comfortable and protected here.
                          >
                          > eduard
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                          >
                          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Bill Harris
                          Eduard, I have been to 63meters in scuba gear. That is a surrealistic experience that left me with a two day hangover. I would do it again, but it is big time
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Eduard, I have been to 63meters in scuba gear. That is a surrealistic
                            experience that left me with a two day hangover. I would do it again, but it
                            is big time danger. I was absurd there, fighting nitrogen narcosis, with
                            your eyepieces crushing your orbits. It was all so slow, and I wanted to
                            stay----forever. bill
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 1:19 PM
                            Subject: [existlist] fusion reactor at bottom of sea


                            > Bill,
                            >
                            > I haven't a clue. I write standards. If you
                            > could build the reactor, I could write a standard
                            > so that others might do the same ... at least to
                            > an order of acceptability ....
                            >
                            > On second thought, forget it ... I am not keen on
                            > going down there at a couple thousand atmospheres,
                            > and trying to put things to words ...
                            >
                            > eduard
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                            >
                            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • michael mcguire
                            Eduard, Yes, maybe richer isn t the right word exactly. I would have to say, though, that the level of technology that we find in today s culture makes for
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Eduard,

                              Yes, maybe 'richer' isn't the right word exactly. I would have to say,
                              though, that the level of technology that we find in today's culture makes
                              for a more layered or complex cultural milieu.

                              Mike

                              >Michael,
                              >
                              ><< Culture is much richer now. >>
                              >
                              >I am not making an arguement out of it, but I am
                              >wondering if culture is actually richer today. I
                              >am sitting here pounding on the keyboard; whereas
                              >Mr. Neanderthal would be dancing around a fire,
                              >trying to call upon the gods to increase the
                              >fertility of the tribe. I wonder whose culture is
                              >richer ... but then that may only be me.
                              >
                              >eduard
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                              >(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                              >
                              >TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                              >existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                              _________________________________________________________________
                              Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
                            • Eduard Alf
                              Bill,
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Bill,

                                << I think this qualifies as a cultural activity
                                >>

                                I suppose ...

                                I guess I am only reacting to the thought of a
                                Neanderthal, in a pristine earth which has not as
                                yet been damaged. Old Mr. Neanderthal may not
                                have had a computer, but he could drink from any
                                body of water he happened to come across.

                                eduard
                              • Eduard Alf
                                Bill, I have a basic rule ... not to move more than 1m from my present position ... either up or down ... eduard
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Bill,

                                  << I have been to 63meters in scuba gear. >>

                                  I have a basic rule ... not to move more than 1m
                                  from my present position ... either up or down ...

                                  eduard
                                • Eduard Alf
                                  Michael,
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 31, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Michael,

                                    << I would have to say, though, that the level of
                                    technology that we find in today's culture makes
                                    for a more layered or complex cultural milieu. >>

                                    I wonder ...

                                    Although I am not exactly conversant with
                                    Neanderthals, it would seem to me that
                                    "complexity" in anything depends upon what you
                                    make of it. If I want something to eat, I just go
                                    to the grocery store. Neanderthal would [like a
                                    member of First Nations in North America] would go
                                    through an involved routine of talking to the gods
                                    to ensure a good hunt and would have to arm
                                    himself with all the knowledge of the woods, that
                                    we don't have a clue about today.

                                    eduard
                                  • michael mcguire
                                    ... Eduard, Good point, I haven t really thought about it from that perspective. mike ... _________________________________________________________________ MSN
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 1 1:20 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Eduard typed:

                                      >I wonder ...
                                      >
                                      >Although I am not exactly conversant with
                                      >Neanderthals, it would seem to me that
                                      >"complexity" in anything depends upon what you
                                      >make of it. If I want something to eat, I just go
                                      >to the grocery store. Neanderthal would [like a
                                      >member of First Nations in North America] would go
                                      >through an involved routine of talking to the gods
                                      >to ensure a good hunt and would have to arm
                                      >himself with all the knowledge of the woods, that
                                      >we don't have a clue about today.

                                      Eduard,


                                      Good point, I haven't really thought about it from that perspective.


                                      mike

                                      >
                                      >eduard
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                      >(Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                      >
                                      >TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                      >existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                      >




                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                                      http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                                    • Eduard Alf
                                      Mike, I saw this documentary on prehistory society in Europe. I think it had to do with that 5000 year old corpse they found in Austria. It showed this guy
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 1 2:26 PM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Mike,

                                        I saw this documentary on prehistory society in
                                        Europe. I think it had to do with that 5000 year
                                        old corpse they found in Austria. It showed this
                                        guy going out on a hunt. More often than not,
                                        they would make use of kills that were done by
                                        wolfs or other predators in the forest. Anyway,
                                        here is this guy going out to get the family meal,
                                        and he happens upon a stream which he dives into
                                        to get clams and crayfish. It made me think that
                                        this was not just a special stream ... clear and
                                        cool ... but one of any number of streams in his
                                        territory. This, at a time when everything was
                                        pristine and everything that you needed was right
                                        there, as long as you knew where to find it.

                                        It makes me think that the complexity of life in
                                        those days was perhaps as high or higher than we
                                        have today. And what is really attractive about
                                        it, is that if something goes wrong, you only have
                                        yourself or the gods to blame. And you don't have
                                        a landlord or the IRS on your back. It is too bad
                                        that we really cant return to those days of
                                        yesteryear ....

                                        eduard

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: michael mcguire
                                        [mailto:signinname01@...]
                                        Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:20 PM
                                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [existlist] Not so similar...


                                        Eduard typed:

                                        >I wonder ...
                                        >
                                        >Although I am not exactly conversant with
                                        >Neanderthals, it would seem to me that
                                        >"complexity" in anything depends upon what you
                                        >make of it. If I want something to eat, I just
                                        go
                                        >to the grocery store. Neanderthal would [like a
                                        >member of First Nations in North America] would
                                        go
                                        >through an involved routine of talking to the
                                        gods
                                        >to ensure a good hunt and would have to arm
                                        >himself with all the knowledge of the woods, that
                                        >we don't have a clue about today.

                                        Eduard,

                                        Good point, I haven't really thought about it from
                                        that perspective.

                                        mike
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.