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Re: [existlist] Rosenzweig, Existentialism, American Gnostics

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  • Cris
    Hi: Listmates and Gnostiker; )) From a previous message on the Sartre list ... sense. ... existed. ... Cris: I checked the book: The American Religion ,
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 2, 2001
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      Hi: Listmates and Gnostiker;>))


      From a previous message on the Sartre list

      > Chris:
      > We don't know if matter always existed. "Always existed" doesn't make
      sense.
      >
      > Catweasle:
      > It makes the same amount of sense as 'never existed' or 'sometimes
      existed.
      > ' For me matter has always existed but in 'differing modalities' in
      > different types of energy/matter configurations.
      >
      Cris:
      I checked the book:
      " The American Religion", Harold Bloom, Simon and
      Schuster Eds., New York, 1991, Southern Baptist and Mormons represent the
      American Religion, a gnostic one.....
      and it would seem that the Mormons also have this
      faith, that only matter exists.( I am not a specialist on Mormons).
      What would count is..... that matter exists, but it is irrelevant
      if you want to know if it was created, never stops existing(What ever this
      really means?)etc. etc.
      I think it is a way of stating that we can not even set limits to
      our reason on it, not even with nothing, or something etc.

      On the Theological side:
      I can't figure out a material Angel, or God though....
      Maybe an UFO...

      Or a human can attain a material Godhood in this material existence?

      The Gnostic element is you start a some point , go through stages of
      experience, knowledge etc., and you arrive at Godhhood in life.
      Through a technique of some sort, a super human thinking machine...
      Further in the book from Harold Bloom ed. essays of Gerscholm
      Scholem, Kaballah, - the opposite pole of Rosenzweig and Heidegger-,
      sees part of Heiddger as Gnostic, because you have to go through these
      stages to reach an understanding of Being. Being though is not God?
      The Gnostic form is that you need various stages of Gods evolution, to us
      so we can understand his revelation, since we are in a partial otherness to
      God,
      and from our perspective, God is a completely other dimension or mode.
      (Theology now) and we go through different stages to reach him in life.
      Plotinius stages, evil being less good. Which of course still leaves the
      problem of evil.
      A ritual of stages and magic that the person-soul-angel goes through.
      Alchemy?

      So there is a beginning from" nothing" or "always was" principle that
      evolves
      into the Demiurg, Michael and Metranom Angels, etc etc. until Adam.

      Historically speaking for mankind the opposite process can be recorded.
      That is the evolution of the Concept of God from animistic spirits to
      polytheism to
      angels to God.

      St. Paul was also somewhat Gnostic.
      -See Elaine Pagels books, also about the
      Gnostic Gospels, Lucifer etc. etc,-
      as he thought that Jesus became God only
      after the crucifixion, where he might or might not have died. Nikos
      Kantzansakis?
      A point where Heidegger might have thought he was going to also, a
      Godhead?.
      Apparently, maybe for an existentialist theology or a Gnostic one? you need
      a messenger. Even Rosenzweig requires Moses Law, the Christians, Jesus, as
      a way of building a bridge to God as a permanent idea thrown in the world
      incorporated in a messenger?.
      But the main way for Rosenzweig is the everyday usage of the Word,
      language, everyday communication. Mystical Hieroglyphics?
      See a recent reedited book, with and 1999 intro from Hillary Putnam, and a
      second intro by Nahum Glatzer.. The Book's title "Understanding the Sick
      and
      the Healthy", Franz Rosenzweig, Harvard University Press, Cambridge
      Masuchussets 1999, also Suhrkampf Verlag 1992, Germany.
      This book is a simplified version of Star of Redemption, using the analogy
      of a patient who is sick with a philosophy that objectifies the patient ,
      reifies him as he thinks about reality, as not pertaining to himself as not
      belonging to the everyday life of common sense. He is very critical of
      German Idealism and the Being as something hidden, to be discovered,
      uncovered etc.
      The only essence is that of the stream of human life over time, non
      segmented, in the particulars of the persons with a specific names. Let us
      say James or could it
      be for example the cat named Beelzebub, (Master and Margrit;>>)) ) or was
      it
      Azael?
      Maybe Catweasel would like some of Rosenzweigs thought elements, critical
      of Being, with out the God part of course. Instead of God read
      Something.;>))
      Rosenzweig turn out to be very critical of existentialism, although he
      started it all....
      Or at least critical of Heidegger's view...
      Rosenzweig is considered as a co existentialist,
      since it is only with others that you can realize you are existing. No
      authenticity, no completing something, but holding on to life and welcoming
      death a part of natural life.

      Common Sense though can't be a panacea for philosophy or theology though.
      I wonder what the original German concept was, since they don't have a
      common sense concept equal to English ( The lack of common teutonic
      sense;>)) )
      Deutsch, Dutch, deutlich, to speak clearly so other can understand..
      So Deutsch is General Semantics....;>))
      A knew there was something teutonic about them.

      Cris
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