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RE: [existlist] Re: Reflections on Bad Faith: To Con Oneself

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  • Eduard Alf
    james, I suppose that more would be found if he was sent for psychoanalysis. All that can be done at this time is to look on the surface and make a guess. The
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 2 12:34 PM
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      james,

      I suppose that more would be found if he was sent
      for psychoanalysis. All that can be done at this
      time is to look on the surface and make a guess.
      The example makes me think about the element of
      time. People tend to start out with some
      expectation of life and career. The choose to
      become an engineer or doctor or whatever. But, as
      the years go by, they settle into something less
      consequential. In a sense, one could say that
      with their present attitude they are being
      authentic. Yet they are in a state of "bad faith"
      with themselves, in that they have convinced
      themselves of the worth of being less than they
      could be.

      eduard

      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:36 AM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Reflections on Bad
      Faith: To Con Oneself


      eduard,

      that engineer u mentioned seems to lack passion. i
      am inclined to think he
      is living in bad faith, though the precise nature
      requires "existential
      psychoanalysis". he seems to lack authenticity. he
      seem to just to get by.
      his kind of attitude reminds me of what happened
      when i was in the army - it
      is precisely the same attitude some of the
      soldiers had. but the soldiers
      here are mostly draftees, not a voluntary
      vocation. i'd say ur first
      paragraph pretty much described what is meant by
      bad faith.

      james.
    • james tan
      i agree with u that bad faith basically is the inability or unwillingness to accept truth about oneself. u asked a interesting question: if i know that i am
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 2 7:14 PM
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        i agree with u that bad faith basically is the inability or unwillingness to
        accept truth about oneself. u asked a interesting question: "if 'i know'
        that i am lying to myself, how could i really be deceived". i think this is
        just another manifestation of bad faith. one may 'know', but one may not
        'accept', thus the self deception. there are two components here: one the
        intellectual, the other the emotional. his cognitive ability enables him to
        'know', but emotionally, he cannot or do not want to 'accept' that fact
        about himself - and thus, there is really a difference in iq and eq.
        research has shown that not all high scorers in iq are successful in life,
        whereas what is common among the 'achievers' in life are a good healthy dose
        of eq. eq enables people to accept the facts about themselves, which has a
        important effect in making the right decision in how they would
        realistically use their resources. more or less, they know their own
        strengths AND limits, they know what they want - and people engaged in bad
        faith is precisely lacking in these areas, so that without even these basic,
        fundamental psychological elements, they end up ineffective and maladaptive,
        and unhappy. freud went a step further in positing the unconscious, so that
        self deception may not even be 'known' to the person concerned.

        james.


        From: "decker150" <decker150@...>
        Reply-To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
        To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Sartre] Re: Reflections on Bad Faith: To Con Oneself
        Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:40:55 -0000

        Well, I wonder about that. Bad faith had a sense to it that oneself
        was mainly deceived in the process. If 'I know' that I am lying to
        myself, how could I really be deceived. It strikes me that bad faith
        neccessitates a believing of something that is not truth without the
        self-realization that it's actually untrue. The solitary or
        autonomous act of bad faith occurs when I am unwilling or unable to
        recognize that truth about myself. It seems to have little to do
        with 'the others' around me, but has it's central affect on oneself.

        Please help me here if I am wrong - Joe

        --- In Sartre@y..., Debby Coley <debbycoley@y...> wrote:
        > My thinking on this is that the person in question is
        > the one acting in bad faith, the self-deceived, is an
        > active participant in the act of lying to another and
        > simultaneously lying to his/her self. There is no
        > duality in the act of lying as the liar lies to
        > him/her self as well as lying to another person.
        > Sartre states in "Being and Nothingness" that "Bad
        > faith on the contrary implies in essence the unity of
        > a single consciousness"(89). ..."There must be an an
        > original intention and a project of bad faith as such
        > and a pre-reflective apprehension (of) consciousness
        > as affecting itself with bad faith" (89). As far as
        > the question of that decker raises fits along with the
        > concept of bad faith. The liar knows the truth
        > distinctly and yet chooses to lie for whatever reason,
        > thus lying to himself/herself and to the recipient of
        > the lie. Surely, these types of entities that Decker
        > mentions are aware that they are lying to others and
        > likewise lying to themselves. I apologize if I have
        > become repetitious.
        > debby
        > --- decker150 <decker150@y...> wrote:
        > > I was wondering, do you think Sartre extended bad
        > > faith to include
        > > deception towards other beings? I've been thinking
        > > about the social
        > > fraud which is not criminal. Also, the thought came
        > > to me of 'the
        > > mask', or the greek concept of the hypocrises, the
        > > actor behind the
        > > mask: This could be the pedaphile priest, the
        > > unfaithful spouse, the
        > > well honored employee who steals, the person who is
        > > two-faced, the
        > > pretender, someone who acts like a friend but
        > > doesn't stick with you
        > > through thick and thin. The corporate slizziness of
        > > Enron and
        > > MCIworld? Are these bad faith? A lack of the
        > > authentic, the genuine
        > > and the true? The confidence trickster?
        > >
        > > Joe
        > >
        > > --- In Sartre@y..., praxistence@a... wrote:
        > > > In Truth & Existence, Sartre provides an example
        > > of bad faith: the
        > > woman who
        > > > knows she is ill but refuses to see a doctor.
        > > People ask, "What's
        > > the
        > > > matter?," & she says, "Oh, nothing."
        > > >
        > > > How many of us do this kind of thing every day?
        > > But I suspect that
        > > true bad
        > > > faith is to exhibit a pattern of this sort of
        > > conduct: people that
        > > NEVER see
        > > > (or say they never see) a doctor. My favorite is
        > > somebody that
        > > retires from
        > > > some company or agency after umpteen-plus years, &
        > > the report
        > > concludes with,
        > > > "never taken a sick day."
        > > >
        > > > Have there never been days when someone just
        > > didn't feel well? Was
        > > the person
        > > > sick but went to work anyway? If so, who else got
        > > sick because
        > > someone
        > > > refused to take sick day?
        > > >
        > > > Here in the US of A, it's apparent that, with this
        > > example, we
        > > actually
        > > > celebrate the person of bad faith: "Oh, I've never
        > > taken a sick
        > > day!" "Hey,
        > > > well good for you!" Moreover, even if the person
        > > has consciously
        > > refused to
        > > > take a sick day for umpteen-plus years, in order
        > > to be able to say,
        > > on
        > > > retirement, "Hey, no sick days for me!," is this
        > > not also bad
        > > faith? At
        > > > retirement, this is the legacy one leaves?: no
        > > sick days?
        > > >
        > > > If anyone disagrees, please say so, but I think
        > > Joe is on to
        > > something: good
        > > > faith v. bad faith. Good faith in taking sick
        > > days when one knows
        > > one is
        > > > sick is far more admirable than being able to
        > > leave the legacy of
        > > no sick
        > > > days taken.
        > > >
        > > > Unfortunately, at least here in the States, bad
        > > faith gets the seal
        > > of
        > > > approval until one is lawfully taken to task for
        > > bad faith, e.g.,
        > > failing to
        > > > carry out a contract in good faith
        > > >
        > > > Of course, there're also the cases of people that
        > > take off sick
        > > when they're
        > > > not: this is likewise bad faith: deceiving
        > > oneself, deceiving
        > > others, &
        > > > knowing one is deceiving others.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > > removed]
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > =====
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
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      • daniel_needles
        James, Interesting distinction. Thanks. Daniel ... unwillingness to ... know ... this is ... may not ... one the ... enables him to ... fact ... eq. ... in
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 3 3:04 PM
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          James,
          Interesting distinction. Thanks.
          Daniel

          --- In existlist@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
          >
          > i agree with u that bad faith basically is the inability or
          unwillingness to
          > accept truth about oneself. u asked a interesting question: "if 'i
          know'
          > that i am lying to myself, how could i really be deceived". i think
          this is
          > just another manifestation of bad faith. one may 'know', but one
          may not
          > 'accept', thus the self deception. there are two components here:
          one the
          > intellectual, the other the emotional. his cognitive ability
          enables him to
          > 'know', but emotionally, he cannot or do not want to 'accept' that
          fact
          > about himself - and thus, there is really a difference in iq and
          eq.
          > research has shown that not all high scorers in iq are successful
          in life,
          > whereas what is common among the 'achievers' in life are a good
          healthy dose
          > of eq. eq enables people to accept the facts about themselves,
          which has a
          > important effect in making the right decision in how they would
          > realistically use their resources. more or less, they know their
          own
          > strengths AND limits, they know what they want - and people engaged
          in bad
          > faith is precisely lacking in these areas, so that without even
          these basic,
          > fundamental psychological elements, they end up ineffective and
          maladaptive,
          > and unhappy. freud went a step further in positing the unconscious,
          so that
          > self deception may not even be 'known' to the person concerned.
          >
          > james.
          >
          >
          > From: "decker150" <decker150@y...>
          > Reply-To: Sartre@y...
          > To: Sartre@y...
          > Subject: [Sartre] Re: Reflections on Bad Faith: To Con Oneself
          > Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:40:55 -0000
          >
          > Well, I wonder about that. Bad faith had a sense to it that oneself
          > was mainly deceived in the process. If 'I know' that I am lying to
          > myself, how could I really be deceived. It strikes me that bad
          faith
          > neccessitates a believing of something that is not truth without the
          > self-realization that it's actually untrue. The solitary or
          > autonomous act of bad faith occurs when I am unwilling or unable to
          > recognize that truth about myself. It seems to have little to do
          > with 'the others' around me, but has it's central affect on oneself.
          >
          > Please help me here if I am wrong - Joe
          >
          > --- In Sartre@y..., Debby Coley <debbycoley@y...> wrote:
          > > My thinking on this is that the person in question is
          > > the one acting in bad faith, the self-deceived, is an
          > > active participant in the act of lying to another and
          > > simultaneously lying to his/her self. There is no
          > > duality in the act of lying as the liar lies to
          > > him/her self as well as lying to another person.
          > > Sartre states in "Being and Nothingness" that "Bad
          > > faith on the contrary implies in essence the unity of
          > > a single consciousness"(89). ..."There must be an an
          > > original intention and a project of bad faith as such
          > > and a pre-reflective apprehension (of) consciousness
          > > as affecting itself with bad faith" (89). As far as
          > > the question of that decker raises fits along with the
          > > concept of bad faith. The liar knows the truth
          > > distinctly and yet chooses to lie for whatever reason,
          > > thus lying to himself/herself and to the recipient of
          > > the lie. Surely, these types of entities that Decker
          > > mentions are aware that they are lying to others and
          > > likewise lying to themselves. I apologize if I have
          > > become repetitious.
          > > debby
          > > --- decker150 <decker150@y...> wrote:
          > > > I was wondering, do you think Sartre extended bad
          > > > faith to include
          > > > deception towards other beings? I've been thinking
          > > > about the social
          > > > fraud which is not criminal. Also, the thought came
          > > > to me of 'the
          > > > mask', or the greek concept of the hypocrises, the
          > > > actor behind the
          > > > mask: This could be the pedaphile priest, the
          > > > unfaithful spouse, the
          > > > well honored employee who steals, the person who is
          > > > two-faced, the
          > > > pretender, someone who acts like a friend but
          > > > doesn't stick with you
          > > > through thick and thin. The corporate slizziness of
          > > > Enron and
          > > > MCIworld? Are these bad faith? A lack of the
          > > > authentic, the genuine
          > > > and the true? The confidence trickster?
          > > >
          > > > Joe
          > > >
          > > > --- In Sartre@y..., praxistence@a... wrote:
          > > > > In Truth & Existence, Sartre provides an example
          > > > of bad faith: the
          > > > woman who
          > > > > knows she is ill but refuses to see a doctor.
          > > > People ask, "What's
          > > > the
          > > > > matter?," & she says, "Oh, nothing."
          > > > >
          > > > > How many of us do this kind of thing every day?
          > > > But I suspect that
          > > > true bad
          > > > > faith is to exhibit a pattern of this sort of
          > > > conduct: people that
          > > > NEVER see
          > > > > (or say they never see) a doctor. My favorite is
          > > > somebody that
          > > > retires from
          > > > > some company or agency after umpteen-plus years, &
          > > > the report
          > > > concludes with,
          > > > > "never taken a sick day."
          > > > >
          > > > > Have there never been days when someone just
          > > > didn't feel well? Was
          > > > the person
          > > > > sick but went to work anyway? If so, who else got
          > > > sick because
          > > > someone
          > > > > refused to take sick day?
          > > > >
          > > > > Here in the US of A, it's apparent that, with this
          > > > example, we
          > > > actually
          > > > > celebrate the person of bad faith: "Oh, I've never
          > > > taken a sick
          > > > day!" "Hey,
          > > > > well good for you!" Moreover, even if the person
          > > > has consciously
          > > > refused to
          > > > > take a sick day for umpteen-plus years, in order
          > > > to be able to say,
          > > > on
          > > > > retirement, "Hey, no sick days for me!," is this
          > > > not also bad
          > > > faith? At
          > > > > retirement, this is the legacy one leaves?: no
          > > > sick days?
          > > > >
          > > > > If anyone disagrees, please say so, but I think
          > > > Joe is on to
          > > > something: good
          > > > > faith v. bad faith. Good faith in taking sick
          > > > days when one knows
          > > > one is
          > > > > sick is far more admirable than being able to
          > > > leave the legacy of
          > > > no sick
          > > > > days taken.
          > > > >
          > > > > Unfortunately, at least here in the States, bad
          > > > faith gets the seal
          > > > of
          > > > > approval until one is lawfully taken to task for
          > > > bad faith, e.g.,
          > > > failing to
          > > > > carry out a contract in good faith
          > > > >
          > > > > Of course, there're also the cases of people that
          > > > take off sick
          > > > when they're
          > > > > not: this is likewise bad faith: deceiving
          > > > oneself, deceiving
          > > > others, &
          > > > > knowing one is deceiving others.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > > > removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > =====
          > >
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
          > > http://sbc.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
          http://messenger.msn.com
        • james tan
          deceiving others as a result of deceiving oneself may be true, but i doubt sartre was really as concerned about that as the full implication of deceiving
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 4 7:52 AM
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            deceiving others as a result of deceiving oneself may be true, but i doubt
            sartre was really as concerned about that as the full implication of
            deceiving oneself for oneself (not so much for others, though it comes in
            the package. but strictly, deception of others is only considered deception
            [and not mere misleading] when there is a intention, so a sincerely self
            deceived person cannot deceive others because there isnt any intention to do
            so; and IF there is intention, a cunning person can present facts and
            'truth' in such a way that the victim can end up being deceived in
            interpretation).

            james.


            From: praxistence@...
            Reply-To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
            To: Sartre@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Sartre] Re: Reflections on Bad Faith: To Con Oneself
            Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:29:38 EDT

            I suspect that when you deceive yourself, you're also going to deceive
            others: you're seldom going to deceive yourself into believing you are not
            sick but simultaneously tell others you have TB. I'm guessing (anyone else
            disagreeing, please challenge) that for Sartre bad faith in deceiving
            oneself
            implies that you're likewise gonna be deceiving others.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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