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Re: [existlist] Chivas

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  • Bill Harris
    Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking on their bloody knees for miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious to their pain. The center isle of
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
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      Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking on their bloody knees for miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious to their pain. The center isle of the church which was their destination was a bloody mess. It was obvious they were in a transcendental mind set. It is not uncommen to see individuals so enraptured with religion, mixed with datura or pyote, that they lose touch with common life. They must be fed and cared for by others but are revered as holy people. I was aware of one case where such a person allowed himself to be crucified. He is now revered locally as a saint. This is pathologic behavour, perhaps not scizophrenic. These people have been drawn away from the real world into a mystical existance which causes them harm. The psychatrist who takes psycotropic drugs to aid his patients I would put in a different class. Yet if this behavour causes his life to degrade to uselessness, what has he accomplished. How is he different from the Mexican martyrs? When a person destroys himself for substances or causes where does faith and heroism end and addiction and fanaticism begin? Bill
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: nick a
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:46 AM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


      I'm ~a bit~ out of context....

      Back in the 70's they were *recommending* that professors and medical
      doctors take LSD.... The dose sizes back then were usually much much larger
      than the ones people generally take today.

      Being on LSD is kind of like the schizophrenic experience. I'm actually
      going to school to be a psyhciatrist... I believe if you want to really
      understand people you need to experience not only the sicknesses they have,
      but the means they must endure in order to be cured.... Many will never
      touch a psychoactive drug, while others will take just as many as their
      patients... Any thoughts on this?

      In europe group psycholytic therapy is pretty common.. The therapist(s) will
      take LSD, MDMA, etc with the patients and take notes of their medatative (or
      otherwise) therapy sessions..

      Also, what do you mean Bill, by
      "The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his rapture
      destroys his reality base."

      Who's rapture? The religious fanatic's? Or the schizophrenic's? Or both?
      How do hallucinations "draw people away"??


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 1:47 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


      > Charles, Nice. Plato had something over Socrates, Danceaerobics are
      certainly preferable to hemlock. Endorphins are supposedly much better
      anesthetics than opiates. I think Madison Avenue is responsible for much of
      our bodily image obsession.
      > My wife and I followed our viewing of Beautiful Mind with a reviewing of
      Stigmata. She asked me if the religious experience was not much like the
      schizoid break in Beautiful Mind. I think not, It is more akin to what you
      describe as mystical relaxation. Yet a retreat to religious experience for
      comfort does rival the running away to the pleasant that the protagonist
      experienced in his initial delusions. He wanted to be a spy hero and his
      very facile mind repeatedly allowed the experience. The religious fanatic
      seems much like the schizophrenic when his rapture destroys his reality
      base. It is that step I have not taken, to the place of visual and auditory
      hallucinations that draws people away , forever.
      > Chasing the dragon with drugs is the same dangerous game. I think bookdoc
      understands more than I where this line is drawn and how to cope with the
      temptation to cross. I suspect you also know more than you would wish to
      explain. For me I will repeat my advice to Elisabeth to myself. My god will
      have to suffice for me. Thanks for the peek , Bill
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Charles
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:13 PM
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
      >
      >
      > Bill,
      >
      > Your post remainds me somehow of the ideal
      > "Republic" in which Plato recomends the use
      > of gymnastics
      > and music as the ideal combination for a
      > healthy life. Likewise, I practice and enjoy
      > this variation as being
      > more practical and less dangerous than
      > meditation or hypnosis. The brain seems to
      > release a sort of narcotic
      > substance that increases the pleasure of
      > strong physical activities. What I still
      > don't understand is
      > this contemporary obsession with health and
      > beauty in the individuals which I consider
      > out of reach and
      > impossible; time is unforgiven in this
      > respect.
      >
      > In any case, meditation, contemplation or
      > hypnosis, things with which I am not too
      > familiar, and are always
      > controversial, seem to lead the mind into a
      > state of mystical relaxation which borders on
      > the threshold of
      > an unconscious religious belief, and in
      > which, the participating subject, with
      > perhaps the aid of supernatural
      > entities, aspires to become God himself, or
      > Nature, in order to avoid the inevitable and
      > general problems
      > of existence (anxiety, anguish, despair...)
      > by the use of a tranquilizing technique with
      > spiritualistic goals
      > based on ancient reports of religious
      > ecstasy and religious trance. Knowing that in
      > this life, no matter what
      > we do, there are always more pains to endure
      > than pleasures to enjoy, I prefer to remain
      > at the common
      > sense level and bear the consequences of a
      > hopeless redemption. Why is it that it is
      > precisely that what
      > we don't have is what we think is going to
      > make us happy? Most people are always trying
      > to avoid the
      > daily problems of existence by making the
      > unwanted use of opportunistic quacks who
      > allege, for example,
      > that they can enhance the performance of an
      > athlete or cure otherwise hopeless diseases.
      > Mind you the
      > dangerous possible outcomes.
      >
      > Charles
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Bill Harris"
      > <valleywestdental@...>
      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:05 AM
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
      >
      >
      > Charles , I use a variant of meditation.
      > While riding my bike or Nordic skiing, the
      > rhythm of the physical activity allows me an
      > altered state of mental relaxation. I could
      > liken it to decrementing a computer disk
      > drive. I find the coactivity helps remove
      > distraction. I am just busy enough to not
      > notice distractions that would interfere with
      > silent meditation. An ethical hypnotherapist
      > is probable not financially possible for
      > most people. I would never use non
      > professional, unlicensed people for hypnosis.
      > I will not go into the possible dangers but
      > they are numerous. Running could serve as a
      > framework for the relaxation technique I use.
      > Swimming might also work. By using this
      > technique you relax the mind and exercise the
      > body simultaneously. Miles seem to slip by
      > and the physical discomforts of the exercise
      > regime are lessened. I find long, flat spaces
      > work best and I use a bike computer to
      > monitor speed, gear and revolutions which
      > helps keep me at a steady state. It is a very
      > relaxing experience and at the end I feel
      > defragged. I came upon it accidentally when
      > I lost track of several odometer registered
      > miles. Bill
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Charles
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:05 PM
      > Subject: [existlist] Chivas
      >
      >
      > "On re-reading I thought my post rather
      > awful. It might have been the
      > Chivas that made my post sound clever at
      > the
      > time"
      >
      > If I were you, which I am not or which I
      > may
      > be, I would stick with the
      > Chivas, to answer laimly questions (to give
      > sound answers) and
      > nothing to conceal. It is an absolute event
      > which comes to us by means of being clear
      > and
      > which without being clear, is constantly
      > and
      > eternaly sustained by being clear.
      >
      > "That is HELP, especially when you are
      > looking to do a non-creative task".
      >
      > Hence we understand that by questioning
      > different minds, without any conductive
      > thread, we could not find different
      > treatments (I doubt it would be possible to
      > dislike sex) meditation is only a postulate
      > in which a process of detachment is more
      > like
      > a complete activity of flight which
      > operates
      > on bare foot (a relaxing of not wearing
      > shoes).
      >
      > M. I. Clear
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have
      > been removed]
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ADVERTISEMENT
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      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and
      > more.)
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      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
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      > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >
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      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and
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      >
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      >
      >
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      >
      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      >
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      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
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      >
      >


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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bill Harris
      Bookdoc, that is where I really think it rests. If you have made the leap of faith you have thrown yourself into the unknowable world of the metaphysical. For
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
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        Bookdoc, that is where I really think it rests. If you have made the leap of faith you have thrown yourself into the unknowable world of the metaphysical. For seven years I climbed mountains so I went to see Sylvester Stillones "Cliff Hanger" . In climbing the safest position is to have both hands and both feet supporting you on the rock face. Every time you move an appendage you increase your risk. If you move your hand you check the new hand hold to be sure it is stable and supportive before you transfer weight to the new anchor. The same goes for your foot rests. That is the safe and reasonable way up a face. Sly however preferred to leap from place to place. he had no idea if his intended landing spots were supportive or if the leap itself would be successful. I think you get my point.
        You have changed my view as to the ultimate reason for being rationally based or faith based. There is none. It is nothing more than a personal choice we make. Some think it best to take the leap some do not, some think the whole thing absurd. Bill
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: elbookdoc
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:08 AM
        Subject: [existlist] Re: Chivas and other gods


        --- In existlist@y..., "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@q...> wrote:
        <<The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his
        rapture destroys his reality base.>>

        That's the pot calling the nail a fastener!

        I guess where I am extreme is that you take this one step further.
        You believe in lots-o-shit for no good reason.

        What if any belief is fanatic rapture?

        preci piss
        --------------------------------------


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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill Harris
        Bookdoc, The big bang was an energy phenomenon. Because of the extreme temperatures present all matter, even the most fundamental, was fused and reduced to
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
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          Bookdoc, The big bang was an energy phenomenon. Because of the extreme temperatures present all matter, even the most fundamental, was fused and reduced to pure energy. This energy was manifest as extreme temperature. Since then matter coalesced to the determent of energy. The Hubble constant says the universe will continue to expand, growing colder and more dim. More and more matter will be bound up in super massive black holes. Finally we are left with only gravity and matter. That is an absurd condition that could only result in---- A big bang. Bill
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: elbookdoc
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:08 AM
          Subject: [existlist] Re: Chivas and other gods


          --- In existlist@y..., "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@q...> wrote:
          <<The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his
          rapture destroys his reality base.>>

          That's the pot calling the nail a fastener!

          I guess where I am extreme is that you take this one step further.
          You believe in lots-o-shit for no good reason.

          What if any belief is fanatic rapture?

          preci piss
          --------------------------------------


          Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

          TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
          existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • nick a
          Okay. I wasn t current on that thread, but the tone seemed a bit peculiar to me, and I just wanted to get some opinions clarified... :-) (I think) Now it
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Okay. I wasn't current on that thread, but the tone seemed a bit peculiar
            to me, and I just wanted to get some opinions clarified... :-)

            (I think)

            Now it makes sense...

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:10 AM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


            > Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking on their bloody knees for
            miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious to their pain. The center
            isle of the church which was their destination was a bloody mess. It was
            obvious they were in a transcendental mind set. It is not uncommen to see
            individuals so enraptured with religion, mixed with datura or pyote, that
            they lose touch with common life. They must be fed and cared for by others
            but are revered as holy people. I was aware of one case where such a person
            allowed himself to be crucified. He is now revered locally as a saint. This
            is pathologic behavour, perhaps not scizophrenic. These people have been
            drawn away from the real world into a mystical existance which causes them
            harm. The psychatrist who takes psycotropic drugs to aid his patients I
            would put in a different class. Yet if this behavour causes his life to
            degrade to uselessness, what has he accomplished. How is he different from
            the Mexican martyrs? When a person destroys himself for substances or
            causes where does faith and heroism end and addiction and fanaticism
            begin? Bill
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: nick a
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:46 AM
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
            >
            >
            > I'm ~a bit~ out of context....
            >
            > Back in the 70's they were *recommending* that professors and medical
            > doctors take LSD.... The dose sizes back then were usually much much
            larger
            > than the ones people generally take today.
            >
            > Being on LSD is kind of like the schizophrenic experience. I'm actually
            > going to school to be a psyhciatrist... I believe if you want to really
            > understand people you need to experience not only the sicknesses they
            have,
            > but the means they must endure in order to be cured.... Many will never
            > touch a psychoactive drug, while others will take just as many as their
            > patients... Any thoughts on this?
            >
            > In europe group psycholytic therapy is pretty common.. The therapist(s)
            will
            > take LSD, MDMA, etc with the patients and take notes of their medatative
            (or
            > otherwise) therapy sessions..
            >
            > Also, what do you mean Bill, by
            > "The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his
            rapture
            > destroys his reality base."
            >
            > Who's rapture? The religious fanatic's? Or the schizophrenic's? Or
            both?
            > How do hallucinations "draw people away"??
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
            > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 1:47 PM
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
            >
            >
            > > Charles, Nice. Plato had something over Socrates, Danceaerobics are
            > certainly preferable to hemlock. Endorphins are supposedly much better
            > anesthetics than opiates. I think Madison Avenue is responsible for
            much of
            > our bodily image obsession.
            > > My wife and I followed our viewing of Beautiful Mind with a reviewing
            of
            > Stigmata. She asked me if the religious experience was not much like
            the
            > schizoid break in Beautiful Mind. I think not, It is more akin to what
            you
            > describe as mystical relaxation. Yet a retreat to religious experience
            for
            > comfort does rival the running away to the pleasant that the protagonist
            > experienced in his initial delusions. He wanted to be a spy hero and his
            > very facile mind repeatedly allowed the experience. The religious
            fanatic
            > seems much like the schizophrenic when his rapture destroys his reality
            > base. It is that step I have not taken, to the place of visual and
            auditory
            > hallucinations that draws people away , forever.
            > > Chasing the dragon with drugs is the same dangerous game. I think
            bookdoc
            > understands more than I where this line is drawn and how to cope with
            the
            > temptation to cross. I suspect you also know more than you would wish
            to
            > explain. For me I will repeat my advice to Elisabeth to myself. My god
            will
            > have to suffice for me. Thanks for the peek , Bill
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Charles
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:13 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
            > >
            > >
            > > Bill,
            > >
            > > Your post remainds me somehow of the ideal
            > > "Republic" in which Plato recomends the use
            > > of gymnastics
            > > and music as the ideal combination for a
            > > healthy life. Likewise, I practice and enjoy
            > > this variation as being
            > > more practical and less dangerous than
            > > meditation or hypnosis. The brain seems to
            > > release a sort of narcotic
            > > substance that increases the pleasure of
            > > strong physical activities. What I still
            > > don't understand is
            > > this contemporary obsession with health and
            > > beauty in the individuals which I consider
            > > out of reach and
            > > impossible; time is unforgiven in this
            > > respect.
            > >
            > > In any case, meditation, contemplation or
            > > hypnosis, things with which I am not too
            > > familiar, and are always
            > > controversial, seem to lead the mind into a
            > > state of mystical relaxation which borders on
            > > the threshold of
            > > an unconscious religious belief, and in
            > > which, the participating subject, with
            > > perhaps the aid of supernatural
            > > entities, aspires to become God himself, or
            > > Nature, in order to avoid the inevitable and
            > > general problems
            > > of existence (anxiety, anguish, despair...)
            > > by the use of a tranquilizing technique with
            > > spiritualistic goals
            > > based on ancient reports of religious
            > > ecstasy and religious trance. Knowing that in
            > > this life, no matter what
            > > we do, there are always more pains to endure
            > > than pleasures to enjoy, I prefer to remain
            > > at the common
            > > sense level and bear the consequences of a
            > > hopeless redemption. Why is it that it is
            > > precisely that what
            > > we don't have is what we think is going to
            > > make us happy? Most people are always trying
            > > to avoid the
            > > daily problems of existence by making the
            > > unwanted use of opportunistic quacks who
            > > allege, for example,
            > > that they can enhance the performance of an
            > > athlete or cure otherwise hopeless diseases.
            > > Mind you the
            > > dangerous possible outcomes.
            > >
            > > Charles
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Bill Harris"
            > > <valleywestdental@...>
            > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:05 AM
            > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
            > >
            > >
            > > Charles , I use a variant of meditation.
            > > While riding my bike or Nordic skiing, the
            > > rhythm of the physical activity allows me an
            > > altered state of mental relaxation. I could
            > > liken it to decrementing a computer disk
            > > drive. I find the coactivity helps remove
            > > distraction. I am just busy enough to not
            > > notice distractions that would interfere with
            > > silent meditation. An ethical hypnotherapist
            > > is probable not financially possible for
            > > most people. I would never use non
            > > professional, unlicensed people for hypnosis.
            > > I will not go into the possible dangers but
            > > they are numerous. Running could serve as a
            > > framework for the relaxation technique I use.
            > > Swimming might also work. By using this
            > > technique you relax the mind and exercise the
            > > body simultaneously. Miles seem to slip by
            > > and the physical discomforts of the exercise
            > > regime are lessened. I find long, flat spaces
            > > work best and I use a bike computer to
            > > monitor speed, gear and revolutions which
            > > helps keep me at a steady state. It is a very
            > > relaxing experience and at the end I feel
            > > defragged. I came upon it accidentally when
            > > I lost track of several odometer registered
            > > miles. Bill
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Charles
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:05 PM
            > > Subject: [existlist] Chivas
            > >
            > >
            > > "On re-reading I thought my post rather
            > > awful. It might have been the
            > > Chivas that made my post sound clever at
            > > the
            > > time"
            > >
            > > If I were you, which I am not or which I
            > > may
            > > be, I would stick with the
            > > Chivas, to answer laimly questions (to give
            > > sound answers) and
            > > nothing to conceal. It is an absolute event
            > > which comes to us by means of being clear
            > > and
            > > which without being clear, is constantly
            > > and
            > > eternaly sustained by being clear.
            > >
            > > "That is HELP, especially when you are
            > > looking to do a non-creative task".
            > >
            > > Hence we understand that by questioning
            > > different minds, without any conductive
            > > thread, we could not find different
            > > treatments (I doubt it would be possible to
            > > dislike sex) meditation is only a postulate
            > > in which a process of detachment is more
            > > like
            > > a complete activity of flight which
            > > operates
            > > on bare foot (a relaxing of not wearing
            > > shoes).
            > >
            > > M. I. Clear
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have
            > > been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Our Home:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
            > > more.)
            > >
            > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
            > > email to:
            > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > > removed]
            > >
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            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
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            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
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            >
            >
            >
          • Eduard Alf
            Bill, I am not getting the emails in sequence ... :-(( Anyway, I should think that there is a fundamental difference between the religious experience that you
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Bill,

              I am not getting the emails in sequence ... :-((

              Anyway, I should think that there is a fundamental
              difference between the religious experience that
              you describe and simple taking of drugs. Although
              it is probably the case that the taking of drugs
              is more widely spread than just for the religious,
              its use in American consumer culture is an
              entirely different thing. Without the control of
              religion, drug taking becomes just another
              addiction.

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: nick a [mailto:res0nthw@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:23 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


              Okay. I wasn't current on that thread, but the
              tone seemed a bit peculiar
              to me, and I just wanted to get some opinions
              clarified... :-)

              (I think)

              Now it makes sense...

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas

              > Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking
              on their bloody knees for
              miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious
              to their pain. The center
              isle of the church which was their destination was
              a bloody mess. It was
              obvious they were in a transcendental mind set.
              It is not uncommen to see
              individuals so enraptured with religion, mixed
              with datura or pyote, that
              they lose touch with common life. They must be
              fed and cared for by others
              but are revered as holy people. I was aware of one
              case where such a person
              allowed himself to be crucified. He is now revered
              locally as a saint. This
              is pathologic behavour, perhaps not scizophrenic.
              These people have been
              drawn away from the real world into a mystical
              existance which causes them
              harm. The psychatrist who takes psycotropic drugs
              to aid his patients I
              would put in a different class. Yet if this
              behavour causes his life to
              degrade to uselessness, what has he accomplished.
              How is he different from
              the Mexican martyrs? When a person destroys
              himself for substances or
              causes where does faith and heroism end and
              addiction and fanaticism
              begin? Bill
            • Bill Harris
              Eduard, Let`s split the religion away from the drug usage, for clarity s sake. In A Childs Garden of Grass a person can be pre programmed to experience
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Eduard, Let`s split the religion away from the drug usage, for clarity's
                sake. In "A Childs Garden of Grass" a person can be pre programmed to
                experience certain pleasant sensations and thoughts during cannabis usage.
                Let`s say a person understands potency, dosage, possible side effects,
                duration, effects and legal implications. He knows this experience will end
                when the duration of the drug is over. It will not change his economics, his
                world view, nor will it impose a faith based cosmology on him for the rest
                of his life. A decision to try the drug limits his personal freedom during
                the time of the drugs duration. The drugs effects are finite. Religion is an
                entirely different matter, as is methamphetamine , as is opium, as is
                ecstasy, as is alcohol. Each mixed with any of the rest of the above
                mentioned entities is an entirely different matter. Trying any of the above
                mentioned entities is a serious matter, and for each the reasons are
                different. How much of this is considered when a friend says"Smoke some of
                this shit" ,or " Come to church with me this Sunday" . Bill
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:57 PM
                Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                > Bill,
                >
                > I am not getting the emails in sequence ... :-((
                >
                > Anyway, I should think that there is a fundamental
                > difference between the religious experience that
                > you describe and simple taking of drugs. Although
                > it is probably the case that the taking of drugs
                > is more widely spread than just for the religious,
                > its use in American consumer culture is an
                > entirely different thing. Without the control of
                > religion, drug taking becomes just another
                > addiction.
                >
                > eduard
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: nick a [mailto:res0nthw@...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:23 PM
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                >
                >
                > Okay. I wasn't current on that thread, but the
                > tone seemed a bit peculiar
                > to me, and I just wanted to get some opinions
                > clarified... :-)
                >
                > (I think)
                >
                > Now it makes sense...
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:10 AM
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                >
                > > Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking
                > on their bloody knees for
                > miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious
                > to their pain. The center
                > isle of the church which was their destination was
                > a bloody mess. It was
                > obvious they were in a transcendental mind set.
                > It is not uncommen to see
                > individuals so enraptured with religion, mixed
                > with datura or pyote, that
                > they lose touch with common life. They must be
                > fed and cared for by others
                > but are revered as holy people. I was aware of one
                > case where such a person
                > allowed himself to be crucified. He is now revered
                > locally as a saint. This
                > is pathologic behavour, perhaps not scizophrenic.
                > These people have been
                > drawn away from the real world into a mystical
                > existance which causes them
                > harm. The psychatrist who takes psycotropic drugs
                > to aid his patients I
                > would put in a different class. Yet if this
                > behavour causes his life to
                > degrade to uselessness, what has he accomplished.
                > How is he different from
                > the Mexican martyrs? When a person destroys
                > himself for substances or
                > causes where does faith and heroism end and
                > addiction and fanaticism
                > begin? Bill
                >
                >
                > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                >
                > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • Eduard Alf
                Bill, I don t think that one can separate out religion from drugs. When drugs are used within the context of religion, there is some control. Religions have
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Bill,

                  I don't think that one can separate out religion
                  from drugs. When drugs are used within the
                  context of religion, there is some control.
                  Religions have used drugs for centuries, although
                  alternate means have been used for religious
                  experiences. In any case, to relate drug use in
                  the modern sense to what went on before. Today,
                  drugs are used as an escape from life, whereas
                  previously they were used to obtain a direction in
                  life.

                  eduard

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Bill Harris
                  [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:29 PM
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                  Eduard, Let`s split the religion away from the
                  drug usage, for clarity's
                  sake. In "A Childs Garden of Grass" a person can
                  be pre programmed to
                  experience certain pleasant sensations and
                  thoughts during cannabis usage.
                  Let`s say a person understands potency, dosage,
                  possible side effects,
                  duration, effects and legal implications. He knows
                  this experience will end
                  when the duration of the drug is over. It will not
                  change his economics, his
                  world view, nor will it impose a faith based
                  cosmology on him for the rest
                  of his life. A decision to try the drug limits his
                  personal freedom during
                  the time of the drugs duration. The drugs effects
                  are finite. Religion is an
                  entirely different matter, as is methamphetamine ,
                  as is opium, as is
                  ecstasy, as is alcohol. Each mixed with any of the
                  rest of the above
                  mentioned entities is an entirely different
                  matter. Trying any of the above
                  mentioned entities is a serious matter, and for
                  each the reasons are
                  different. How much of this is considered when a
                  friend says"Smoke some of
                  this shit" ,or " Come to church with me this
                  Sunday" . Bill
                • Bill Harris
                  Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill ... From: Eduard Alf To: Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:57 PM
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:57 PM
                    Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                    > Bill,
                    >
                    > I don't think that one can separate out religion
                    > from drugs. When drugs are used within the
                    > context of religion, there is some control.
                    > Religions have used drugs for centuries, although
                    > alternate means have been used for religious
                    > experiences. In any case, to relate drug use in
                    > the modern sense to what went on before. Today,
                    > drugs are used as an escape from life, whereas
                    > previously they were used to obtain a direction in
                    > life.
                    >
                    > eduard
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Bill Harris
                    > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                    > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:29 PM
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                    >
                    >
                    > Eduard, Let`s split the religion away from the
                    > drug usage, for clarity's
                    > sake. In "A Childs Garden of Grass" a person can
                    > be pre programmed to
                    > experience certain pleasant sensations and
                    > thoughts during cannabis usage.
                    > Let`s say a person understands potency, dosage,
                    > possible side effects,
                    > duration, effects and legal implications. He knows
                    > this experience will end
                    > when the duration of the drug is over. It will not
                    > change his economics, his
                    > world view, nor will it impose a faith based
                    > cosmology on him for the rest
                    > of his life. A decision to try the drug limits his
                    > personal freedom during
                    > the time of the drugs duration. The drugs effects
                    > are finite. Religion is an
                    > entirely different matter, as is methamphetamine ,
                    > as is opium, as is
                    > ecstasy, as is alcohol. Each mixed with any of the
                    > rest of the above
                    > mentioned entities is an entirely different
                    > matter. Trying any of the above
                    > mentioned entities is a serious matter, and for
                    > each the reasons are
                    > different. How much of this is considered when a
                    > friend says"Smoke some of
                    > this shit" ,or " Come to church with me this
                    > Sunday" . Bill
                    >
                    >
                    > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                    >
                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Eduard Alf
                    Bill, Depends upon your point of view. The direction may be false, but then it is no better or worse than directions taken on the basis of non-religious
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Bill,

                      Depends upon your point of view. The direction
                      may be false, but then it is no better or worse
                      than directions taken on the basis of
                      non-religious thinking ...

                      But then I wonder about my own thinking. I am
                      sitting here in my underwear, with an iced towel
                      on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We had 36c
                      yesterday and it is likely as much today. I am
                      not used to this weather. The way things are
                      going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                      conditioner ...

                      eduard

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Bill Harris
                      [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                      Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                    • Bill Harris
                      Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I love it. Rode 108 miles on my bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here we would call you a heat pussey. Bill ...
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I love it. Rode 108 miles on my
                        bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here we would call you a heat
                        pussey. Bill
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                        Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                        > Bill,
                        >
                        > Depends upon your point of view. The direction
                        > may be false, but then it is no better or worse
                        > than directions taken on the basis of
                        > non-religious thinking ...
                        >
                        > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I am
                        > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced towel
                        > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We had 36c
                        > yesterday and it is likely as much today. I am
                        > not used to this weather. The way things are
                        > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                        > conditioner ...
                        >
                        > eduard
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Bill Harris
                        > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                        > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                        >
                        >
                        > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                        >
                        >
                        > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                        >
                        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Eduard Alf
                        Dearest Bill, It is a totally different kind of heat up here. Much hotter. It has to do with quantum mechanics or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dearest Bill,

                          It is a totally different kind of heat up here.
                          Much hotter. It has to do with quantum mechanics
                          or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                          Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I think
                          I will hide in the basement ....

                          eduard



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Bill Harris
                          [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                          Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I love
                          it. Rode 108 miles on my
                          bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here we
                          would call you a heat
                          pussey. Bill
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                          Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                          > Bill,
                          >
                          > Depends upon your point of view. The direction
                          > may be false, but then it is no better or worse
                          > than directions taken on the basis of
                          > non-religious thinking ...
                          >
                          > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I am
                          > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced towel
                          > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We had
                          36c
                          > yesterday and it is likely as much today. I am
                          > not used to this weather. The way things are
                          > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                          > conditioner ...
                          >
                          > eduard
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Bill Harris
                          > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                          > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                          >
                          >
                          > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                          >
                          >
                          > Our Home:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                          >
                          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
                          to:
                          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                          (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

                          TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                          existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                        • Charles
                          Eduard, Maybe your neurons are not that happy today, but I would have to agree with how annoying this kind of whether is to me too; 102F around here today,
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Eduard,

                            Maybe your neurons are not that happy today,
                            but I would have to agree with how annoying
                            this kind of
                            whether is to me too; 102F around here today,
                            nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                            basement all
                            day long, of course with my AC on. But
                            instead of quantun mechanics, I think is has
                            more to do with "bad
                            faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                            faith" at the same time. According to some
                            people, this consist
                            in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                            single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                            responsible freedom
                            of Being-for-itself resting on a vacillation
                            between trascendence and facticity which
                            refuses to recognize
                            either one for what it really is or to
                            synthesize them. (see key to special
                            terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                            Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                            about all this nonsense, worthless, useless,
                            trash, junk, jargon of
                            "faith".

                            By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                            believe that with the advancement of
                            knowledge in technological and
                            cosmological developments, this little
                            species of ours, for which, existence itself
                            may be just a property of its
                            being, can in any way maintain a normal
                            stability which can compensate for
                            enviromental changes and thus
                            reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                            happiness is just an empty word like justice
                            and freedom. This
                            post, for instance, is just another thing I
                            am doing being determined by previous
                            experiences. It is not my
                            choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                            to do it. I can't help it.

                            Charles


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                            Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                            Dearest Bill,

                            It is a totally different kind of heat up
                            here.
                            Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                            mechanics
                            or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                            Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                            think
                            I will hide in the basement ....

                            eduard



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Bill Harris
                            [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                            Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                            love
                            it. Rode 108 miles on my
                            bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here
                            we
                            would call you a heat
                            pussey. Bill
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                            Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                            > Bill,
                            >
                            > Depends upon your point of view. The
                            direction
                            > may be false, but then it is no better or
                            worse
                            > than directions taken on the basis of
                            > non-religious thinking ...
                            >
                            > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I
                            am
                            > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced
                            towel
                            > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                            had
                            36c
                            > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                            I am
                            > not used to this weather. The way things
                            are
                            > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                            > conditioner ...
                            >
                            > eduard
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Bill Harris
                            > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                            > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                            >
                            >
                            > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                            >
                            >
                            > Our Home:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                            > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                            more.)
                            >
                            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                            email
                            to:
                            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            Our Home:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                            (Includes community book list, chat, and
                            more.)

                            TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
                            to:
                            existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                            Our Home:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                            (Includes community book list, chat, and
                            more.)

                            TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
                            to:
                            existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • Eduard Alf
                            Charles, I think I would melt at 102f ... I have never encountered such a temperature. my neurons are happy ... it is just my body which is having a problem
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Charles,

                              I think I would melt at 102f ... I have never
                              encountered such a temperature.

                              my neurons are happy ... it is just my body which
                              is having a problem ...

                              eduard

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Charles [mailto:cvas2002@...]
                              Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:49 PM
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                              Eduard,

                              Maybe your neurons are not that happy today,
                              but I would have to agree with how annoying
                              this kind of
                              whether is to me too; 102F around here today,
                              nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                              basement all
                              day long, of course with my AC on. But
                              instead of quantun mechanics, I think is has
                              more to do with "bad
                              faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                              faith" at the same time. According to some
                              people, this consist
                              in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                              single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                              responsible freedom
                              of Being-for-itself resting on a vacillation
                              between trascendence and facticity which
                              refuses to recognize
                              either one for what it really is or to
                              synthesize them. (see key to special
                              terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                              Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                              about all this nonsense, worthless, useless,
                              trash, junk, jargon of
                              "faith".

                              By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                              believe that with the advancement of
                              knowledge in technological and
                              cosmological developments, this little
                              species of ours, for which, existence itself
                              may be just a property of its
                              being, can in any way maintain a normal
                              stability which can compensate for
                              enviromental changes and thus
                              reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                              happiness is just an empty word like justice
                              and freedom. This
                              post, for instance, is just another thing I
                              am doing being determined by previous
                              experiences. It is not my
                              choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                              to do it. I can't help it.

                              Charles


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                              Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                              Dearest Bill,

                              It is a totally different kind of heat up
                              here.
                              Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                              mechanics
                              or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                              Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                              think
                              I will hide in the basement ....

                              eduard



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Bill Harris
                              [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                              Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                              Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                              love
                              it. Rode 108 miles on my
                              bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here
                              we
                              would call you a heat
                              pussey. Bill
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                              Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                              > Bill,
                              >
                              > Depends upon your point of view. The
                              direction
                              > may be false, but then it is no better or
                              worse
                              > than directions taken on the basis of
                              > non-religious thinking ...
                              >
                              > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I
                              am
                              > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced
                              towel
                              > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                              had
                              36c
                              > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                              I am
                              > not used to this weather. The way things
                              are
                              > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                              > conditioner ...
                              >
                              > eduard
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Bill Harris
                              > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                              > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                              >
                              >
                              > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                              >
                              >
                              > Our Home:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                              > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                              more.)
                              >
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                              to:
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                              >
                              >


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                            • Bill Harris
                              Charles, It is easy to become depressed with the situation of the species, still we have not discovered any species further evolved. I suppose we have no
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Charles, It is easy to become depressed with the situation of the species,
                                still we have not discovered any species further evolved. I suppose we have
                                no templates for comparison so predictions as to our long term survival seem
                                pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the rest of the bio mass and our
                                constant predilection to change exempts the species from enrolling in a
                                stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards seem stacked against us but
                                retreating to tooth and claw is anything but appealing.
                                The Western World, after the disastrous carnage of the last century,
                                seems to be stabilizing as to population and economics. The rest of the
                                planet is a stick and stone disaster. I really do not understand those
                                that would have us reconsider old , failed systems of government and
                                religion. We are to the rear march here in the US. The academy has adopted
                                the feminist inspired, politically correct posture. It is afraid to
                                discriminate between ideas and holds all cultural systems as equal. They
                                have relinquished their traditional role as arbitrars of concept to the
                                noisy, backward right wing. It is a cowardly stance for which we all pay. A
                                singular voice like Noam Chomski seems strident in the face of the endless
                                acquiescence of the academic community . The young are dispersed over
                                indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and cannot find the numbers or issues
                                to bring new voice to bear. So it is fortress western world with the
                                barbarians at the gates and the cowering intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                You and I Charles will be dead before the next chos reigns. At least we said
                                our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and good times when the terminus
                                arrives. Few have lived as well as we do, and that is the best revenge. Bill
                                Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                > Eduard,
                                >
                                > Maybe your neurons are not that happy today,
                                > but I would have to agree with how annoying
                                > this kind of
                                > whether is to me too; 102F around here today,
                                > nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                                > basement all
                                > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is has
                                > more to do with "bad
                                > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                > faith" at the same time. According to some
                                > people, this consist
                                > in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                                > single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                                > responsible freedom
                                > of Being-for-itself resting on a vacillation
                                > between trascendence and facticity which
                                > refuses to recognize
                                > either one for what it really is or to
                                > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                > about all this nonsense, worthless, useless,
                                > trash, junk, jargon of
                                > "faith".
                                >
                                > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                > believe that with the advancement of
                                > knowledge in technological and
                                > cosmological developments, this little
                                > species of ours, for which, existence itself
                                > may be just a property of its
                                > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                > stability which can compensate for
                                > enviromental changes and thus
                                > reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                                > happiness is just an empty word like justice
                                > and freedom. This
                                > post, for instance, is just another thing I
                                > am doing being determined by previous
                                > experiences. It is not my
                                > choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                                > to do it. I can't help it.
                                >
                                > Charles
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                >
                                >
                                > Dearest Bill,
                                >
                                > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                > here.
                                > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                > mechanics
                                > or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                                > Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                                > think
                                > I will hide in the basement ....
                                >
                                > eduard
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Bill Harris
                                > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                >
                                >
                                > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                                > love
                                > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here
                                > we
                                > would call you a heat
                                > pussey. Bill
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                >
                                >
                                > > Bill,
                                > >
                                > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                > direction
                                > > may be false, but then it is no better or
                                > worse
                                > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                > > non-religious thinking ...
                                > >
                                > > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I
                                > am
                                > > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced
                                > towel
                                > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                                > had
                                > 36c
                                > > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                                > I am
                                > > not used to this weather. The way things
                                > are
                                > > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                                > > conditioner ...
                                > >
                                > > eduard
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: Bill Harris
                                > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Our Home:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                > more.)
                                > >
                                > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                > email
                                > to:
                                > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >
                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > Our Home:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                > more.)
                                >
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                                > to:
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                                >
                                >
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                                >
                                >
                              • Charles
                                Bill, As I said before, as human species, we have come a long way in technological developments and I am really impressed, more than anything, with the space
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Bill,

                                  As I said before, as human species, we have
                                  come a long way in technological developments
                                  and I am
                                  really impressed, more than anything, with
                                  the space program as whole. However, The more
                                  I think about
                                  it, I still don't see us getting any where as
                                  if we had a "purpose" even if we don't
                                  survive it. The last one
                                  hundred years have amazed this little human
                                  animal to the point of an innocent childhood
                                  and immaturity
                                  from which he will be unable to escape (this
                                  does not mean that I want to go back in time)
                                  on the contrary,
                                  we have no choice but to keep going, "we have
                                  no choice". There is no way to stop this
                                  continuous flux of
                                  becoming; this relentless passing of being
                                  into being and out of being into nothingness.
                                  Let us suppose
                                  for a moment that the universe has reached
                                  its goal in our lifetime, in that case, we
                                  all will be "happy" and
                                  our expectations wil finally be at an end. We
                                  have attained our aims and goals. In this
                                  context, I don't see
                                  the universe as one big system but rather as
                                  one big disorder of formless matter in space
                                  and time,
                                  disconnected from other possible "universes".
                                  There is no knowledge of self or truth. Do
                                  you believe that
                                  there is another universe besides this little
                                  cosmos we live in?

                                  Happyness will consist therefore in that
                                  smelly and instinctuall animal sexual
                                  atraction that every specie in this planet
                                  have during the mating season, or better yet,
                                  let us assume that it is a good digestion. I
                                  do too plan
                                  to have nice toys, but I seem to be unable to
                                  play with them, in which case, there is no
                                  possibility of revenge
                                  for me.

                                  Bill, I don't know if you can relate my reply
                                  to your post.

                                  Charles

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Bill Harris"
                                  <valleywestdental@...>
                                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:47 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                  Charles, It is easy to become depressed with
                                  the situation of the species,
                                  still we have not discovered any species
                                  further evolved. I suppose we have
                                  no templates for comparison so predictions as
                                  to our long term survival seem
                                  pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the
                                  rest of the bio mass and our
                                  constant predilection to change exempts the
                                  species from enrolling in a
                                  stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards
                                  seem stacked against us but
                                  retreating to tooth and claw is anything but
                                  appealing.
                                  The Western World, after the disastrous
                                  carnage of the last century,
                                  seems to be stabilizing as to population and
                                  economics. The rest of the
                                  planet is a stick and stone disaster. I
                                  really do not understand those
                                  that would have us reconsider old , failed
                                  systems of government and
                                  religion. We are to the rear march here in
                                  the US. The academy has adopted
                                  the feminist inspired, politically correct
                                  posture. It is afraid to
                                  discriminate between ideas and holds all
                                  cultural systems as equal. They
                                  have relinquished their traditional role as
                                  arbitrars of concept to the
                                  noisy, backward right wing. It is a cowardly
                                  stance for which we all pay. A
                                  singular voice like Noam Chomski seems
                                  strident in the face of the endless
                                  acquiescence of the academic community . The
                                  young are dispersed over
                                  indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and
                                  cannot find the numbers or issues
                                  to bring new voice to bear. So it is
                                  fortress western world with the
                                  barbarians at the gates and the cowering
                                  intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                  You and I Charles will be dead before the
                                  next chos reigns. At least we said
                                  our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and
                                  good times when the terminus
                                  arrives. Few have lived as well as we do, and
                                  that is the best revenge. Bill
                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                  > Eduard,
                                  >
                                  > Maybe your neurons are not that happy
                                  today,
                                  > but I would have to agree with how annoying
                                  > this kind of
                                  > whether is to me too; 102F around here
                                  today,
                                  > nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                                  > basement all
                                  > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                  > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is
                                  has
                                  > more to do with "bad
                                  > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                  > faith" at the same time. According to some
                                  > people, this consist
                                  > in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                                  > single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                                  > responsible freedom
                                  > of Being-for-itself resting on a
                                  vacillation
                                  > between trascendence and facticity which
                                  > refuses to recognize
                                  > either one for what it really is or to
                                  > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                  > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                  > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                  > about all this nonsense, worthless,
                                  useless,
                                  > trash, junk, jargon of
                                  > "faith".
                                  >
                                  > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                  > believe that with the advancement of
                                  > knowledge in technological and
                                  > cosmological developments, this little
                                  > species of ours, for which, existence
                                  itself
                                  > may be just a property of its
                                  > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                  > stability which can compensate for
                                  > enviromental changes and thus
                                  > reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                                  > happiness is just an empty word like
                                  justice
                                  > and freedom. This
                                  > post, for instance, is just another thing I
                                  > am doing being determined by previous
                                  > experiences. It is not my
                                  > choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                                  > to do it. I can't help it.
                                  >
                                  > Charles
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                  > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Dearest Bill,
                                  >
                                  > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                  > here.
                                  > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                  > mechanics
                                  > or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                                  > Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                                  > think
                                  > I will hide in the basement ....
                                  >
                                  > eduard
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Bill Harris
                                  > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                                  > love
                                  > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                  > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down
                                  here
                                  > we
                                  > would call you a heat
                                  > pussey. Bill
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                  > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Bill,
                                  > >
                                  > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                  > direction
                                  > > may be false, but then it is no better or
                                  > worse
                                  > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                  > > non-religious thinking ...
                                  > >
                                  > > But then I wonder about my own thinking.
                                  I
                                  > am
                                  > > sitting here in my underwear, with an
                                  iced
                                  > towel
                                  > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                                  > had
                                  > 36c
                                  > > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                                  > I am
                                  > > not used to this weather. The way things
                                  > are
                                  > > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                                  > > conditioner ...
                                  > >
                                  > > eduard
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: Bill Harris
                                  > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Our Home:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                  > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                  > more.)
                                  > >
                                  > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                  > email
                                  > to:
                                  > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Our Home:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                  > more.)
                                  >
                                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                  email
                                  > to:
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                                  >
                                  >
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                                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                  > more.)
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                                  email
                                  > to:
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                                  >
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                  more.)
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                                  >
                                  >


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                                • Bill Harris
                                  Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in your post. It is that of a perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You properly make him look back and into
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in your post. It is that of a
                                    perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You properly make him look back
                                    and into this cosmos. What else could he see but disorder and formless
                                    matter? Can I suggest he could see the process of his own becoming? That is
                                    his worth, that is his pride.
                                    I have spent time thinking of the big bang. Now I see it as a reaction of
                                    which we see only the second half. The middle or reactive phase itself is
                                    only energy at extreme temperature. What the reagents were before the
                                    reaction is soo different ,it suggests another cosmos, perhaps of different
                                    dimensions. Does part of that entity still exist? Perhaps there are many
                                    others. At any rate we seem earth locked for the foreseeable future. Praise
                                    the Russians for their project idea to go to Mars. Nice idea that will make
                                    no difference for you and I except to hold up the prospect of your fully
                                    evolved heibermench having his look back, feeling damn proud and thankful.
                                    Bill

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:22 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                    > Bill,
                                    >
                                    > As I said before, as human species, we have
                                    > come a long way in technological developments
                                    > and I am
                                    > really impressed, more than anything, with
                                    > the space program as whole. However, The more
                                    > I think about
                                    > it, I still don't see us getting any where as
                                    > if we had a "purpose" even if we don't
                                    > survive it. The last one
                                    > hundred years have amazed this little human
                                    > animal to the point of an innocent childhood
                                    > and immaturity
                                    > from which he will be unable to escape (this
                                    > does not mean that I want to go back in time)
                                    > on the contrary,
                                    > we have no choice but to keep going, "we have
                                    > no choice". There is no way to stop this
                                    > continuous flux of
                                    > becoming; this relentless passing of being
                                    > into being and out of being into nothingness.
                                    > Let us suppose
                                    > for a moment that the universe has reached
                                    > its goal in our lifetime, in that case, we
                                    > all will be "happy" and
                                    > our expectations wil finally be at an end. We
                                    > have attained our aims and goals. In this
                                    > context, I don't see
                                    > the universe as one big system but rather as
                                    > one big disorder of formless matter in space
                                    > and time,
                                    > disconnected from other possible "universes".
                                    > There is no knowledge of self or truth. Do
                                    > you believe that
                                    > there is another universe besides this little
                                    > cosmos we live in?
                                    >
                                    > Happyness will consist therefore in that
                                    > smelly and instinctuall animal sexual
                                    > atraction that every specie in this planet
                                    > have during the mating season, or better yet,
                                    > let us assume that it is a good digestion. I
                                    > do too plan
                                    > to have nice toys, but I seem to be unable to
                                    > play with them, in which case, there is no
                                    > possibility of revenge
                                    > for me.
                                    >
                                    > Bill, I don't know if you can relate my reply
                                    > to your post.
                                    >
                                    > Charles
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Bill Harris"
                                    > <valleywestdental@...>
                                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:47 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Charles, It is easy to become depressed with
                                    > the situation of the species,
                                    > still we have not discovered any species
                                    > further evolved. I suppose we have
                                    > no templates for comparison so predictions as
                                    > to our long term survival seem
                                    > pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the
                                    > rest of the bio mass and our
                                    > constant predilection to change exempts the
                                    > species from enrolling in a
                                    > stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards
                                    > seem stacked against us but
                                    > retreating to tooth and claw is anything but
                                    > appealing.
                                    > The Western World, after the disastrous
                                    > carnage of the last century,
                                    > seems to be stabilizing as to population and
                                    > economics. The rest of the
                                    > planet is a stick and stone disaster. I
                                    > really do not understand those
                                    > that would have us reconsider old , failed
                                    > systems of government and
                                    > religion. We are to the rear march here in
                                    > the US. The academy has adopted
                                    > the feminist inspired, politically correct
                                    > posture. It is afraid to
                                    > discriminate between ideas and holds all
                                    > cultural systems as equal. They
                                    > have relinquished their traditional role as
                                    > arbitrars of concept to the
                                    > noisy, backward right wing. It is a cowardly
                                    > stance for which we all pay. A
                                    > singular voice like Noam Chomski seems
                                    > strident in the face of the endless
                                    > acquiescence of the academic community . The
                                    > young are dispersed over
                                    > indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and
                                    > cannot find the numbers or issues
                                    > to bring new voice to bear. So it is
                                    > fortress western world with the
                                    > barbarians at the gates and the cowering
                                    > intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                    > You and I Charles will be dead before the
                                    > next chos reigns. At least we said
                                    > our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and
                                    > good times when the terminus
                                    > arrives. Few have lived as well as we do, and
                                    > that is the best revenge. Bill
                                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Eduard,
                                    > >
                                    > > Maybe your neurons are not that happy
                                    > today,
                                    > > but I would have to agree with how annoying
                                    > > this kind of
                                    > > whether is to me too; 102F around here
                                    > today,
                                    > > nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                                    > > basement all
                                    > > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                    > > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is
                                    > has
                                    > > more to do with "bad
                                    > > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                    > > faith" at the same time. According to some
                                    > > people, this consist
                                    > > in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                                    > > single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                                    > > responsible freedom
                                    > > of Being-for-itself resting on a
                                    > vacillation
                                    > > between trascendence and facticity which
                                    > > refuses to recognize
                                    > > either one for what it really is or to
                                    > > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                    > > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                    > > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                    > > about all this nonsense, worthless,
                                    > useless,
                                    > > trash, junk, jargon of
                                    > > "faith".
                                    > >
                                    > > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                    > > believe that with the advancement of
                                    > > knowledge in technological and
                                    > > cosmological developments, this little
                                    > > species of ours, for which, existence
                                    > itself
                                    > > may be just a property of its
                                    > > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                    > > stability which can compensate for
                                    > > enviromental changes and thus
                                    > > reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                                    > > happiness is just an empty word like
                                    > justice
                                    > > and freedom. This
                                    > > post, for instance, is just another thing I
                                    > > am doing being determined by previous
                                    > > experiences. It is not my
                                    > > choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                                    > > to do it. I can't help it.
                                    > >
                                    > > Charles
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                    > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                    > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Dearest Bill,
                                    > >
                                    > > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                    > > here.
                                    > > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                    > > mechanics
                                    > > or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                                    > > Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                                    > > think
                                    > > I will hide in the basement ....
                                    > >
                                    > > eduard
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: Bill Harris
                                    > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                    > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                                    > > love
                                    > > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                    > > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down
                                    > here
                                    > > we
                                    > > would call you a heat
                                    > > pussey. Bill
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                    > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                    > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > Bill,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                    > > direction
                                    > > > may be false, but then it is no better or
                                    > > worse
                                    > > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                    > > > non-religious thinking ...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > But then I wonder about my own thinking.
                                    > I
                                    > > am
                                    > > > sitting here in my underwear, with an
                                    > iced
                                    > > towel
                                    > > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                                    > > had
                                    > > 36c
                                    > > > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                                    > > I am
                                    > > > not used to this weather. The way things
                                    > > are
                                    > > > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                                    > > > conditioner ...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > eduard
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > From: Bill Harris
                                    > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                    > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                    > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Our Home:
                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                    > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                    > > more.)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                    > > email
                                    > > to:
                                    > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Our Home:
                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                    > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                    > > more.)
                                    > >
                                    > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                    > email
                                    > > to:
                                    > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Our Home:
                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                    > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                    > > more.)
                                    > >
                                    > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                    > email
                                    > > to:
                                    > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Our Home:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                    > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                    > more.)
                                    > >
                                    > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                    > email to:
                                    > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                                    >
                                    > Our Home:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                    > more.)
                                    >
                                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
                                    > to:
                                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                    >
                                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Eduard Alf
                                    Bill, Interesting ... When we look at something, our neurons try to find some kind of order. Like gazing at the stars and seeing constellations. But then
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
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                                      Bill,

                                      Interesting ...

                                      When we look at something, our neurons try to find
                                      some kind of order. Like gazing at the stars and
                                      seeing constellations.

                                      But then there are times when don't find any
                                      order, but giving up is contrary to the rules of
                                      neuron culture. So they come to the conclusion
                                      that it is all "absurd". For the poor neuron, any
                                      conclusion is better than nothing. Even thoughts
                                      of other universes or whatever will do in a pinch.

                                      eduard

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Bill Harris
                                      [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                      Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:21 PM
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                      Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in your
                                      post. It is that of a
                                      perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You
                                      properly make him look back
                                      and into this cosmos. What else could he see but
                                      disorder and formless
                                      matter? Can I suggest he could see the process of
                                      his own becoming? That is
                                      his worth, that is his pride.
                                      I have spent time thinking of the big bang. Now I
                                      see it as a reaction of
                                      which we see only the second half. The middle or
                                      reactive phase itself is
                                      only energy at extreme temperature. What the
                                      reagents were before the
                                      reaction is soo different ,it suggests another
                                      cosmos, perhaps of different
                                      dimensions. Does part of that entity still exist?
                                      Perhaps there are many
                                      others. At any rate we seem earth locked for the
                                      foreseeable future. Praise
                                      the Russians for their project idea to go to Mars.
                                      Nice idea that will make
                                      no difference for you and I except to hold up the
                                      prospect of your fully
                                      evolved heibermench having his look back, feeling
                                      damn proud and thankful.
                                      Bill
                                    • Bill Harris
                                      Eduard{The heat pussey} Looks like we all make our own accommodation with the future, and you are right, hopefully it makes each and every one happy. I think
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
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                                        Eduard{The heat pussey} Looks like we all make our own accommodation with
                                        the future, and you are right, hopefully it makes each and every one happy.
                                        I think Charle`s idea of the hiebermench fellow to be quite elegant. He
                                        could also embody your Omega point being. From his vantage point he could
                                        even announce he ,himself, to be absurd.
                                        For me he might be a difficult stretch. He seems to embody a great many
                                        god like qualities. Since I do not do faith I must hope in an ending that
                                        does not require the all knowing white beard. I think I will stick with
                                        Stephen Hawking`s concept of the endless witling away , neutron by neutron
                                        of the material accumulated in super massive black holes. Bill
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:31 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                                        > Bill,
                                        >
                                        > Interesting ...
                                        >
                                        > When we look at something, our neurons try to find
                                        > some kind of order. Like gazing at the stars and
                                        > seeing constellations.
                                        >
                                        > But then there are times when don't find any
                                        > order, but giving up is contrary to the rules of
                                        > neuron culture. So they come to the conclusion
                                        > that it is all "absurd". For the poor neuron, any
                                        > conclusion is better than nothing. Even thoughts
                                        > of other universes or whatever will do in a pinch.
                                        >
                                        > eduard
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Bill Harris
                                        > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                        > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:21 PM
                                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in your
                                        > post. It is that of a
                                        > perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You
                                        > properly make him look back
                                        > and into this cosmos. What else could he see but
                                        > disorder and formless
                                        > matter? Can I suggest he could see the process of
                                        > his own becoming? That is
                                        > his worth, that is his pride.
                                        > I have spent time thinking of the big bang. Now I
                                        > see it as a reaction of
                                        > which we see only the second half. The middle or
                                        > reactive phase itself is
                                        > only energy at extreme temperature. What the
                                        > reagents were before the
                                        > reaction is soo different ,it suggests another
                                        > cosmos, perhaps of different
                                        > dimensions. Does part of that entity still exist?
                                        > Perhaps there are many
                                        > others. At any rate we seem earth locked for the
                                        > foreseeable future. Praise
                                        > the Russians for their project idea to go to Mars.
                                        > Nice idea that will make
                                        > no difference for you and I except to hold up the
                                        > prospect of your fully
                                        > evolved heibermench having his look back, feeling
                                        > damn proud and thankful.
                                        > Bill
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                        >
                                        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • elbookdoc
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
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                                          <<then there are times when don't find any
                                          > order, but giving up is contrary to the rules of
                                          > neuron culture. So they come to the conclusion
                                          > that it is all "absurd". >>

                                          Or there might be an absurdity in the order itself.

                                          You repeatedly talk of neurons as if they can think. In what I know
                                          of science, your neuron will be as lacking in cognition as a brick,
                                          though perhaps more chemical, like salt dissolving in water.

                                          From my perspective and the claims of tether to science, your
                                          perspective often seems absurd to me. Not that it matters much to you
                                          and your superior understanding of your personal science.

                                          data fraud, jr.
                                          -------------------------------
                                        • Charles
                                          Bill, As I said at the end of my post, I didn t know if you could relate it to yours, and as is usually the case, I have been misunderstood. The simple fact of
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
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                                            Bill,

                                            As I said at the end of my post, I didn't
                                            know if you could relate it to yours, and as
                                            is usually the case, I have
                                            been misunderstood. The simple fact of
                                            participating in this forum shows that I am
                                            completely disatisfied
                                            with the perfectly evolved human, as you
                                            called. I spoke of becoming as the passage of
                                            events in time
                                            including the coming into being and going out
                                            of being of any quality; it is not the
                                            becoming of the individual
                                            but of the universe. In this sense, the human
                                            is worthless and humble.

                                            I have spent time thinking about the Big Bang
                                            as well, and I believe that the whole theory
                                            is based on
                                            mathematical equations which only lead the
                                            modern scientis to believe in the
                                            supernatural, in which, you
                                            don't believe and I don't believe. According
                                            to the theory, this was the beginning of
                                            space and time, which,
                                            I find incomprehensible. But let us suppose
                                            that we already know what were the reagents
                                            before the
                                            reaction occurred suggesting another cosmos,
                                            perhaps, of different dimensions. That they
                                            still exist, I don't
                                            know. It is an illusion if not a dream Bill.
                                            Neutron by neutron of the material
                                            accumulated in super massive
                                            Black Holes. Of course, this is the zenith of
                                            absurdity (order and disorder at the same
                                            time). Like Eduard
                                            said, even thoughts of other universes will
                                            do in a pinch. Or Bookdoc that there might be
                                            absurdity in the
                                            order itself.

                                            Be as it may, we still don't know, and
                                            perhaps, will never know. An endless debate
                                            in which the absurd and
                                            the ridiculuous will prevail in our lifetime.

                                            Charles


                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Bill Harris"
                                            <valleywestdental@...>
                                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:21 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                            Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in
                                            your post. It is that of a
                                            perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You
                                            properly make him look back
                                            and into this cosmos. What else could he see
                                            but disorder and formless
                                            matter? Can I suggest he could see the
                                            process of his own becoming? That is
                                            his worth, that is his pride.
                                            I have spent time thinking of the big bang.
                                            Now I see it as a reaction of
                                            which we see only the second half. The middle
                                            or reactive phase itself is
                                            only energy at extreme temperature. What the
                                            reagents were before the
                                            reaction is soo different ,it suggests
                                            another cosmos, perhaps of different
                                            dimensions. Does part of that entity still
                                            exist? Perhaps there are many
                                            others. At any rate we seem earth locked for
                                            the foreseeable future. Praise
                                            the Russians for their project idea to go to
                                            Mars. Nice idea that will make
                                            no difference for you and I except to hold up
                                            the prospect of your fully
                                            evolved heibermench having his look back,
                                            feeling damn proud and thankful.
                                            Bill

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:22 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                            > Bill,
                                            >
                                            > As I said before, as human species, we have
                                            > come a long way in technological
                                            developments
                                            > and I am
                                            > really impressed, more than anything, with
                                            > the space program as whole. However, The
                                            more
                                            > I think about
                                            > it, I still don't see us getting any where
                                            as
                                            > if we had a "purpose" even if we don't
                                            > survive it. The last one
                                            > hundred years have amazed this little human
                                            > animal to the point of an innocent
                                            childhood
                                            > and immaturity
                                            > from which he will be unable to escape
                                            (this
                                            > does not mean that I want to go back in
                                            time)
                                            > on the contrary,
                                            > we have no choice but to keep going, "we
                                            have
                                            > no choice". There is no way to stop this
                                            > continuous flux of
                                            > becoming; this relentless passing of being
                                            > into being and out of being into
                                            nothingness.
                                            > Let us suppose
                                            > for a moment that the universe has reached
                                            > its goal in our lifetime, in that case, we
                                            > all will be "happy" and
                                            > our expectations wil finally be at an end.
                                            We
                                            > have attained our aims and goals. In this
                                            > context, I don't see
                                            > the universe as one big system but rather
                                            as
                                            > one big disorder of formless matter in
                                            space
                                            > and time,
                                            > disconnected from other possible
                                            "universes".
                                            > There is no knowledge of self or truth. Do
                                            > you believe that
                                            > there is another universe besides this
                                            little
                                            > cosmos we live in?
                                            >
                                            > Happyness will consist therefore in that
                                            > smelly and instinctuall animal sexual
                                            > atraction that every specie in this planet
                                            > have during the mating season, or better
                                            yet,
                                            > let us assume that it is a good digestion.
                                            I
                                            > do too plan
                                            > to have nice toys, but I seem to be unable
                                            to
                                            > play with them, in which case, there is no
                                            > possibility of revenge
                                            > for me.
                                            >
                                            > Bill, I don't know if you can relate my
                                            reply
                                            > to your post.
                                            >
                                            > Charles
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: "Bill Harris"
                                            > <valleywestdental@...>
                                            > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:47 AM
                                            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Charles, It is easy to become depressed
                                            with
                                            > the situation of the species,
                                            > still we have not discovered any species
                                            > further evolved. I suppose we have
                                            > no templates for comparison so predictions
                                            as
                                            > to our long term survival seem
                                            > pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the
                                            > rest of the bio mass and our
                                            > constant predilection to change exempts
                                            the
                                            > species from enrolling in a
                                            > stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards
                                            > seem stacked against us but
                                            > retreating to tooth and claw is anything
                                            but
                                            > appealing.
                                            > The Western World, after the disastrous
                                            > carnage of the last century,
                                            > seems to be stabilizing as to population
                                            and
                                            > economics. The rest of the
                                            > planet is a stick and stone disaster. I
                                            > really do not understand those
                                            > that would have us reconsider old , failed
                                            > systems of government and
                                            > religion. We are to the rear march here in
                                            > the US. The academy has adopted
                                            > the feminist inspired, politically correct
                                            > posture. It is afraid to
                                            > discriminate between ideas and holds all
                                            > cultural systems as equal. They
                                            > have relinquished their traditional role as
                                            > arbitrars of concept to the
                                            > noisy, backward right wing. It is a
                                            cowardly
                                            > stance for which we all pay. A
                                            > singular voice like Noam Chomski seems
                                            > strident in the face of the endless
                                            > acquiescence of the academic community .
                                            The
                                            > young are dispersed over
                                            > indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and
                                            > cannot find the numbers or issues
                                            > to bring new voice to bear. So it is
                                            > fortress western world with the
                                            > barbarians at the gates and the cowering
                                            > intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                            > You and I Charles will be dead before the
                                            > next chos reigns. At least we said
                                            > our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and
                                            > good times when the terminus
                                            > arrives. Few have lived as well as we do,
                                            and
                                            > that is the best revenge. Bill
                                            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Eduard,
                                            > >
                                            > > Maybe your neurons are not that happy
                                            > today,
                                            > > but I would have to agree with how
                                            annoying
                                            > > this kind of
                                            > > whether is to me too; 102F around here
                                            > today,
                                            > > nevermind the humidity. I have been on
                                            the
                                            > > basement all
                                            > > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                            > > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is
                                            > has
                                            > > more to do with "bad
                                            > > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                            > > faith" at the same time. According to
                                            some
                                            > > people, this consist
                                            > > in lying to ourselves within the unity of
                                            a
                                            > > single consciousnes, seeking to escape
                                            the
                                            > > responsible freedom
                                            > > of Being-for-itself resting on a
                                            > vacillation
                                            > > between trascendence and facticity which
                                            > > refuses to recognize
                                            > > either one for what it really is or to
                                            > > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                            > > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                            > > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                            > > about all this nonsense, worthless,
                                            > useless,
                                            > > trash, junk, jargon of
                                            > > "faith".
                                            > >
                                            > > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                            > > believe that with the advancement of
                                            > > knowledge in technological and
                                            > > cosmological developments, this little
                                            > > species of ours, for which, existence
                                            > itself
                                            > > may be just a property of its
                                            > > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                            > > stability which can compensate for
                                            > > enviromental changes and thus
                                            > > reach happiness? Personally I believe
                                            that
                                            > > happiness is just an empty word like
                                            > justice
                                            > > and freedom. This
                                            > > post, for instance, is just another thing
                                            I
                                            > > am doing being determined by previous
                                            > > experiences. It is not my
                                            > > choice; somehow, I think, I am being
                                            forced
                                            > > to do it. I can't help it.
                                            > >
                                            > > Charles
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                            > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                            > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Dearest Bill,
                                            > >
                                            > > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                            > > here.
                                            > > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                            > > mechanics
                                            > > or something ... I am not an expert on
                                            it.
                                            > > Suffice to say that it is just terrible.
                                            I
                                            > > think
                                            > > I will hide in the basement ....
                                            > >
                                            > > eduard
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > From: Bill Harris
                                            > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                            > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week.
                                            I
                                            > > love
                                            > > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                            > > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down
                                            > here
                                            > > we
                                            > > would call you a heat
                                            > > pussey. Bill
                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                            > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                            > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > > Bill,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                            > > direction
                                            > > > may be false, but then it is no better
                                            or
                                            > > worse
                                            > > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                            > > > non-religious thinking ...
                                            > > >
                                            > > > But then I wonder about my own
                                            thinking.
                                            > I
                                            > > am
                                            > > > sitting here in my underwear, with an
                                            > iced
                                            > > towel
                                            > > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here.
                                            We
                                            > > had
                                            > > 36c
                                            > > > yesterday and it is likely as much
                                            today.
                                            > > I am
                                            > > > not used to this weather. The way
                                            things
                                            > > are
                                            > > > going, perhaps I should invest in an
                                            air
                                            > > > conditioner ...
                                            > > >
                                            > > > eduard
                                            > > >
                                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > > From: Bill Harris
                                            > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                            > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                            > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
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                                          • Bill Harris
                                            Charles, Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree that mankind will meet an end long before the demise of the cosmos. The extreme forces responsible for
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jul 9, 2002
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                                              Charles, Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree that mankind will meet an
                                              end long before the demise of the cosmos. The extreme forces responsible for
                                              foundation and obliterasation are far too violent for a picune species like
                                              man. We then exist in a packet of time which itself is encapsulated within
                                              the life of this universe. That idea is not very complicated or mystical
                                              nor does it push me toward any leaps of faith. I am fascinated by the
                                              knowledge we have garnished about initial beginnings and final ends. Having
                                              any idea what happened 15 billion years ago is quite impressive to me.
                                              The final conclusion is even more difficult to postulate. A winner take
                                              all poker game between super massive black holes leaves us with some finite
                                              number of singularities containing all the mass and gravitational force
                                              inthe universe. The huge x-ray pulses ejected from these monsters will
                                              dissipate into space when there is no more matter to be speggitified. At
                                              this point Hawkins neutron evaporation escape begins. He used a time scale
                                              I was not familiar with but it meant gaga billions of years. Certainly this
                                              has no relevance to human kind except as a scientific curiosity, yet it
                                              does put the question in the province of science not in the nut fringe.
                                              As to weather the absurd and ridiculous prevail in our lifetime is for me
                                              an individual judgment. I think the bulk of irrational thinking resides in
                                              the religious people of the world. Splinter existentialist factions like
                                              NOOism and absurdism are interesting curiosities to me. I doubt they will
                                              ever be responsible for holy wars or irrational anarchy. Neither of their
                                              founders impress me with their violent tendencies.
                                              I think I have a firm enough foundation to live out a life with personal
                                              purpose and a rough equivalency with the society around me. I will try to
                                              find out more, probably because of an innate curiosity. I , like you, can
                                              take position on most of the issues of the time. I want to remain competent
                                              until the worms or a slug takes my brain. Bill
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:00 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                              > Bill,
                                              >
                                              > As I said at the end of my post, I didn't
                                              > know if you could relate it to yours, and as
                                              > is usually the case, I have
                                              > been misunderstood. The simple fact of
                                              > participating in this forum shows that I am
                                              > completely disatisfied
                                              > with the perfectly evolved human, as you
                                              > called. I spoke of becoming as the passage of
                                              > events in time
                                              > including the coming into being and going out
                                              > of being of any quality; it is not the
                                              > becoming of the individual
                                              > but of the universe. In this sense, the human
                                              > is worthless and humble.
                                              >
                                              > I have spent time thinking about the Big Bang
                                              > as well, and I believe that the whole theory
                                              > is based on
                                              > mathematical equations which only lead the
                                              > modern scientis to believe in the
                                              > supernatural, in which, you
                                              > don't believe and I don't believe. According
                                              > to the theory, this was the beginning of
                                              > space and time, which,
                                              > I find incomprehensible. But let us suppose
                                              > that we already know what were the reagents
                                              > before the
                                              > reaction occurred suggesting another cosmos,
                                              > perhaps, of different dimensions. That they
                                              > still exist, I don't
                                              > know. It is an illusion if not a dream Bill.
                                              > Neutron by neutron of the material
                                              > accumulated in super massive
                                              > Black Holes. Of course, this is the zenith of
                                              > absurdity (order and disorder at the same
                                              > time). Like Eduard
                                              > said, even thoughts of other universes will
                                              > do in a pinch. Or Bookdoc that there might be
                                              > absurdity in the
                                              > order itself.
                                              >
                                              > Be as it may, we still don't know, and
                                              > perhaps, will never know. An endless debate
                                              > in which the absurd and
                                              > the ridiculuous will prevail in our lifetime.
                                              >
                                              > Charles
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: "Bill Harris"
                                              > <valleywestdental@...>
                                              > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:21 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in
                                              > your post. It is that of a
                                              > perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You
                                              > properly make him look back
                                              > and into this cosmos. What else could he see
                                              > but disorder and formless
                                              > matter? Can I suggest he could see the
                                              > process of his own becoming? That is
                                              > his worth, that is his pride.
                                              > I have spent time thinking of the big bang.
                                              > Now I see it as a reaction of
                                              > which we see only the second half. The middle
                                              > or reactive phase itself is
                                              > only energy at extreme temperature. What the
                                              > reagents were before the
                                              > reaction is soo different ,it suggests
                                              > another cosmos, perhaps of different
                                              > dimensions. Does part of that entity still
                                              > exist? Perhaps there are many
                                              > others. At any rate we seem earth locked for
                                              > the foreseeable future. Praise
                                              > the Russians for their project idea to go to
                                              > Mars. Nice idea that will make
                                              > no difference for you and I except to hold up
                                              > the prospect of your fully
                                              > evolved heibermench having his look back,
                                              > feeling damn proud and thankful.
                                              > Bill
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                                              > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:22 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Bill,
                                              > >
                                              > > As I said before, as human species, we have
                                              > > come a long way in technological
                                              > developments
                                              > > and I am
                                              > > really impressed, more than anything, with
                                              > > the space program as whole. However, The
                                              > more
                                              > > I think about
                                              > > it, I still don't see us getting any where
                                              > as
                                              > > if we had a "purpose" even if we don't
                                              > > survive it. The last one
                                              > > hundred years have amazed this little human
                                              > > animal to the point of an innocent
                                              > childhood
                                              > > and immaturity
                                              > > from which he will be unable to escape
                                              > (this
                                              > > does not mean that I want to go back in
                                              > time)
                                              > > on the contrary,
                                              > > we have no choice but to keep going, "we
                                              > have
                                              > > no choice". There is no way to stop this
                                              > > continuous flux of
                                              > > becoming; this relentless passing of being
                                              > > into being and out of being into
                                              > nothingness.
                                              > > Let us suppose
                                              > > for a moment that the universe has reached
                                              > > its goal in our lifetime, in that case, we
                                              > > all will be "happy" and
                                              > > our expectations wil finally be at an end.
                                              > We
                                              > > have attained our aims and goals. In this
                                              > > context, I don't see
                                              > > the universe as one big system but rather
                                              > as
                                              > > one big disorder of formless matter in
                                              > space
                                              > > and time,
                                              > > disconnected from other possible
                                              > "universes".
                                              > > There is no knowledge of self or truth. Do
                                              > > you believe that
                                              > > there is another universe besides this
                                              > little
                                              > > cosmos we live in?
                                              > >
                                              > > Happyness will consist therefore in that
                                              > > smelly and instinctuall animal sexual
                                              > > atraction that every specie in this planet
                                              > > have during the mating season, or better
                                              > yet,
                                              > > let us assume that it is a good digestion.
                                              > I
                                              > > do too plan
                                              > > to have nice toys, but I seem to be unable
                                              > to
                                              > > play with them, in which case, there is no
                                              > > possibility of revenge
                                              > > for me.
                                              > >
                                              > > Bill, I don't know if you can relate my
                                              > reply
                                              > > to your post.
                                              > >
                                              > > Charles
                                              > >
                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > From: "Bill Harris"
                                              > > <valleywestdental@...>
                                              > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:47 AM
                                              > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Charles, It is easy to become depressed
                                              > with
                                              > > the situation of the species,
                                              > > still we have not discovered any species
                                              > > further evolved. I suppose we have
                                              > > no templates for comparison so predictions
                                              > as
                                              > > to our long term survival seem
                                              > > pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the
                                              > > rest of the bio mass and our
                                              > > constant predilection to change exempts
                                              > the
                                              > > species from enrolling in a
                                              > > stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards
                                              > > seem stacked against us but
                                              > > retreating to tooth and claw is anything
                                              > but
                                              > > appealing.
                                              > > The Western World, after the disastrous
                                              > > carnage of the last century,
                                              > > seems to be stabilizing as to population
                                              > and
                                              > > economics. The rest of the
                                              > > planet is a stick and stone disaster. I
                                              > > really do not understand those
                                              > > that would have us reconsider old , failed
                                              > > systems of government and
                                              > > religion. We are to the rear march here in
                                              > > the US. The academy has adopted
                                              > > the feminist inspired, politically correct
                                              > > posture. It is afraid to
                                              > > discriminate between ideas and holds all
                                              > > cultural systems as equal. They
                                              > > have relinquished their traditional role as
                                              > > arbitrars of concept to the
                                              > > noisy, backward right wing. It is a
                                              > cowardly
                                              > > stance for which we all pay. A
                                              > > singular voice like Noam Chomski seems
                                              > > strident in the face of the endless
                                              > > acquiescence of the academic community .
                                              > The
                                              > > young are dispersed over
                                              > > indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and
                                              > > cannot find the numbers or issues
                                              > > to bring new voice to bear. So it is
                                              > > fortress western world with the
                                              > > barbarians at the gates and the cowering
                                              > > intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                              > > You and I Charles will be dead before the
                                              > > next chos reigns. At least we said
                                              > > our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and
                                              > > good times when the terminus
                                              > > arrives. Few have lived as well as we do,
                                              > and
                                              > > that is the best revenge. Bill
                                              > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > Eduard,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Maybe your neurons are not that happy
                                              > > today,
                                              > > > but I would have to agree with how
                                              > annoying
                                              > > > this kind of
                                              > > > whether is to me too; 102F around here
                                              > > today,
                                              > > > nevermind the humidity. I have been on
                                              > the
                                              > > > basement all
                                              > > > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                              > > > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is
                                              > > has
                                              > > > more to do with "bad
                                              > > > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                              > > > faith" at the same time. According to
                                              > some
                                              > > > people, this consist
                                              > > > in lying to ourselves within the unity of
                                              > a
                                              > > > single consciousnes, seeking to escape
                                              > the
                                              > > > responsible freedom
                                              > > > of Being-for-itself resting on a
                                              > > vacillation
                                              > > > between trascendence and facticity which
                                              > > > refuses to recognize
                                              > > > either one for what it really is or to
                                              > > > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                              > > > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                              > > > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                              > > > about all this nonsense, worthless,
                                              > > useless,
                                              > > > trash, junk, jargon of
                                              > > > "faith".
                                              > > >
                                              > > > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                              > > > believe that with the advancement of
                                              > > > knowledge in technological and
                                              > > > cosmological developments, this little
                                              > > > species of ours, for which, existence
                                              > > itself
                                              > > > may be just a property of its
                                              > > > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                              > > > stability which can compensate for
                                              > > > enviromental changes and thus
                                              > > > reach happiness? Personally I believe
                                              > that
                                              > > > happiness is just an empty word like
                                              > > justice
                                              > > > and freedom. This
                                              > > > post, for instance, is just another thing
                                              > I
                                              > > > am doing being determined by previous
                                              > > > experiences. It is not my
                                              > > > choice; somehow, I think, I am being
                                              > forced
                                              > > > to do it. I can't help it.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Charles
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                              > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                              > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Dearest Bill,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                              > > > here.
                                              > > > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                              > > > mechanics
                                              > > > or something ... I am not an expert on
                                              > it.
                                              > > > Suffice to say that it is just terrible.
                                              > I
                                              > > > think
                                              > > > I will hide in the basement ....
                                              > > >
                                              > > > eduard
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > From: Bill Harris
                                              > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                              > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                              > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week.
                                              > I
                                              > > > love
                                              > > > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                              > > > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down
                                              > > here
                                              > > > we
                                              > > > would call you a heat
                                              > > > pussey. Bill
                                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                              > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                              > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > > Bill,
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                              > > > direction
                                              > > > > may be false, but then it is no better
                                              > or
                                              > > > worse
                                              > > > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                              > > > > non-religious thinking ...
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > But then I wonder about my own
                                              > thinking.
                                              > > I
                                              > > > am
                                              > > > > sitting here in my underwear, with an
                                              > > iced
                                              > > > towel
                                              > > > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here.
                                              > We
                                              > > > had
                                              > > > 36c
                                              > > > > yesterday and it is likely as much
                                              > today.
                                              > > > I am
                                              > > > > not used to this weather. The way
                                              > things
                                              > > > are
                                              > > > > going, perhaps I should invest in an
                                              > air
                                              > > > > conditioner ...
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > eduard
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > > From: Bill Harris
                                              > > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                              > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                              > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Our Home:
                                              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                              > > > > (Includes community book list, chat,
                                              > and
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                                              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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                                              > > Our Home:
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                                              > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
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                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Our Home:
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                              > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                              > more.)
                                              > >
                                              > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
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                                              >
                                              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                                              >
                                              > Our Home:
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                              > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                              > more.)
                                              >
                                              > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
                                              > to:
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                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                              >
                                              > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
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