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Re: [existlist] Chivas

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  • Bill Harris
    Charles, Nice. Plato had something over Socrates, Danceaerobics are certainly preferable to hemlock. Endorphins are supposedly much better anesthetics than
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
      Charles, Nice. Plato had something over Socrates, Danceaerobics are certainly preferable to hemlock. Endorphins are supposedly much better anesthetics than opiates. I think Madison Avenue is responsible for much of our bodily image obsession.
      My wife and I followed our viewing of Beautiful Mind with a reviewing of Stigmata. She asked me if the religious experience was not much like the schizoid break in Beautiful Mind. I think not, It is more akin to what you describe as mystical relaxation. Yet a retreat to religious experience for comfort does rival the running away to the pleasant that the protagonist experienced in his initial delusions. He wanted to be a spy hero and his very facile mind repeatedly allowed the experience. The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his rapture destroys his reality base. It is that step I have not taken, to the place of visual and auditory hallucinations that draws people away , forever.
      Chasing the dragon with drugs is the same dangerous game. I think bookdoc understands more than I where this line is drawn and how to cope with the temptation to cross. I suspect you also know more than you would wish to explain. For me I will repeat my advice to Elisabeth to myself. My god will have to suffice for me. Thanks for the peek , Bill
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Charles
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:13 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


      Bill,

      Your post remainds me somehow of the ideal
      "Republic" in which Plato recomends the use
      of gymnastics
      and music as the ideal combination for a
      healthy life. Likewise, I practice and enjoy
      this variation as being
      more practical and less dangerous than
      meditation or hypnosis. The brain seems to
      release a sort of narcotic
      substance that increases the pleasure of
      strong physical activities. What I still
      don't understand is
      this contemporary obsession with health and
      beauty in the individuals which I consider
      out of reach and
      impossible; time is unforgiven in this
      respect.

      In any case, meditation, contemplation or
      hypnosis, things with which I am not too
      familiar, and are always
      controversial, seem to lead the mind into a
      state of mystical relaxation which borders on
      the threshold of
      an unconscious religious belief, and in
      which, the participating subject, with
      perhaps the aid of supernatural
      entities, aspires to become God himself, or
      Nature, in order to avoid the inevitable and
      general problems
      of existence (anxiety, anguish, despair...)
      by the use of a tranquilizing technique with
      spiritualistic goals
      based on ancient reports of religious
      ecstasy and religious trance. Knowing that in
      this life, no matter what
      we do, there are always more pains to endure
      than pleasures to enjoy, I prefer to remain
      at the common
      sense level and bear the consequences of a
      hopeless redemption. Why is it that it is
      precisely that what
      we don't have is what we think is going to
      make us happy? Most people are always trying
      to avoid the
      daily problems of existence by making the
      unwanted use of opportunistic quacks who
      allege, for example,
      that they can enhance the performance of an
      athlete or cure otherwise hopeless diseases.
      Mind you the
      dangerous possible outcomes.

      Charles


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bill Harris"
      <valleywestdental@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:05 AM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


      Charles , I use a variant of meditation.
      While riding my bike or Nordic skiing, the
      rhythm of the physical activity allows me an
      altered state of mental relaxation. I could
      liken it to decrementing a computer disk
      drive. I find the coactivity helps remove
      distraction. I am just busy enough to not
      notice distractions that would interfere with
      silent meditation. An ethical hypnotherapist
      is probable not financially possible for
      most people. I would never use non
      professional, unlicensed people for hypnosis.
      I will not go into the possible dangers but
      they are numerous. Running could serve as a
      framework for the relaxation technique I use.
      Swimming might also work. By using this
      technique you relax the mind and exercise the
      body simultaneously. Miles seem to slip by
      and the physical discomforts of the exercise
      regime are lessened. I find long, flat spaces
      work best and I use a bike computer to
      monitor speed, gear and revolutions which
      helps keep me at a steady state. It is a very
      relaxing experience and at the end I feel
      defragged. I came upon it accidentally when
      I lost track of several odometer registered
      miles. Bill
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Charles
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:05 PM
      Subject: [existlist] Chivas


      "On re-reading I thought my post rather
      awful. It might have been the
      Chivas that made my post sound clever at
      the
      time"

      If I were you, which I am not or which I
      may
      be, I would stick with the
      Chivas, to answer laimly questions (to give
      sound answers) and
      nothing to conceal. It is an absolute event
      which comes to us by means of being clear
      and
      which without being clear, is constantly
      and
      eternaly sustained by being clear.

      "That is HELP, especially when you are
      looking to do a non-creative task".

      Hence we understand that by questioning
      different minds, without any conductive
      thread, we could not find different
      treatments (I doubt it would be possible to
      dislike sex) meditation is only a postulate
      in which a process of detachment is more
      like
      a complete activity of flight which
      operates
      on bare foot (a relaxing of not wearing
      shoes).

      M. I. Clear






      [Non-text portions of this message have
      been removed]


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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • nick a
      I m ~a bit~ out of context.... Back in the 70 s they were *recommending* that professors and medical doctors take LSD.... The dose sizes back then were usually
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
        I'm ~a bit~ out of context....

        Back in the 70's they were *recommending* that professors and medical
        doctors take LSD.... The dose sizes back then were usually much much larger
        than the ones people generally take today.

        Being on LSD is kind of like the schizophrenic experience. I'm actually
        going to school to be a psyhciatrist... I believe if you want to really
        understand people you need to experience not only the sicknesses they have,
        but the means they must endure in order to be cured.... Many will never
        touch a psychoactive drug, while others will take just as many as their
        patients... Any thoughts on this?

        In europe group psycholytic therapy is pretty common.. The therapist(s) will
        take LSD, MDMA, etc with the patients and take notes of their medatative (or
        otherwise) therapy sessions..

        Also, what do you mean Bill, by
        "The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his rapture
        destroys his reality base."

        Who's rapture? The religious fanatic's? Or the schizophrenic's? Or both?
        How do hallucinations "draw people away"??


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 1:47 PM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


        > Charles, Nice. Plato had something over Socrates, Danceaerobics are
        certainly preferable to hemlock. Endorphins are supposedly much better
        anesthetics than opiates. I think Madison Avenue is responsible for much of
        our bodily image obsession.
        > My wife and I followed our viewing of Beautiful Mind with a reviewing of
        Stigmata. She asked me if the religious experience was not much like the
        schizoid break in Beautiful Mind. I think not, It is more akin to what you
        describe as mystical relaxation. Yet a retreat to religious experience for
        comfort does rival the running away to the pleasant that the protagonist
        experienced in his initial delusions. He wanted to be a spy hero and his
        very facile mind repeatedly allowed the experience. The religious fanatic
        seems much like the schizophrenic when his rapture destroys his reality
        base. It is that step I have not taken, to the place of visual and auditory
        hallucinations that draws people away , forever.
        > Chasing the dragon with drugs is the same dangerous game. I think bookdoc
        understands more than I where this line is drawn and how to cope with the
        temptation to cross. I suspect you also know more than you would wish to
        explain. For me I will repeat my advice to Elisabeth to myself. My god will
        have to suffice for me. Thanks for the peek , Bill
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Charles
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:13 PM
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
        >
        >
        > Bill,
        >
        > Your post remainds me somehow of the ideal
        > "Republic" in which Plato recomends the use
        > of gymnastics
        > and music as the ideal combination for a
        > healthy life. Likewise, I practice and enjoy
        > this variation as being
        > more practical and less dangerous than
        > meditation or hypnosis. The brain seems to
        > release a sort of narcotic
        > substance that increases the pleasure of
        > strong physical activities. What I still
        > don't understand is
        > this contemporary obsession with health and
        > beauty in the individuals which I consider
        > out of reach and
        > impossible; time is unforgiven in this
        > respect.
        >
        > In any case, meditation, contemplation or
        > hypnosis, things with which I am not too
        > familiar, and are always
        > controversial, seem to lead the mind into a
        > state of mystical relaxation which borders on
        > the threshold of
        > an unconscious religious belief, and in
        > which, the participating subject, with
        > perhaps the aid of supernatural
        > entities, aspires to become God himself, or
        > Nature, in order to avoid the inevitable and
        > general problems
        > of existence (anxiety, anguish, despair...)
        > by the use of a tranquilizing technique with
        > spiritualistic goals
        > based on ancient reports of religious
        > ecstasy and religious trance. Knowing that in
        > this life, no matter what
        > we do, there are always more pains to endure
        > than pleasures to enjoy, I prefer to remain
        > at the common
        > sense level and bear the consequences of a
        > hopeless redemption. Why is it that it is
        > precisely that what
        > we don't have is what we think is going to
        > make us happy? Most people are always trying
        > to avoid the
        > daily problems of existence by making the
        > unwanted use of opportunistic quacks who
        > allege, for example,
        > that they can enhance the performance of an
        > athlete or cure otherwise hopeless diseases.
        > Mind you the
        > dangerous possible outcomes.
        >
        > Charles
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Bill Harris"
        > <valleywestdental@...>
        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:05 AM
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
        >
        >
        > Charles , I use a variant of meditation.
        > While riding my bike or Nordic skiing, the
        > rhythm of the physical activity allows me an
        > altered state of mental relaxation. I could
        > liken it to decrementing a computer disk
        > drive. I find the coactivity helps remove
        > distraction. I am just busy enough to not
        > notice distractions that would interfere with
        > silent meditation. An ethical hypnotherapist
        > is probable not financially possible for
        > most people. I would never use non
        > professional, unlicensed people for hypnosis.
        > I will not go into the possible dangers but
        > they are numerous. Running could serve as a
        > framework for the relaxation technique I use.
        > Swimming might also work. By using this
        > technique you relax the mind and exercise the
        > body simultaneously. Miles seem to slip by
        > and the physical discomforts of the exercise
        > regime are lessened. I find long, flat spaces
        > work best and I use a bike computer to
        > monitor speed, gear and revolutions which
        > helps keep me at a steady state. It is a very
        > relaxing experience and at the end I feel
        > defragged. I came upon it accidentally when
        > I lost track of several odometer registered
        > miles. Bill
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Charles
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:05 PM
        > Subject: [existlist] Chivas
        >
        >
        > "On re-reading I thought my post rather
        > awful. It might have been the
        > Chivas that made my post sound clever at
        > the
        > time"
        >
        > If I were you, which I am not or which I
        > may
        > be, I would stick with the
        > Chivas, to answer laimly questions (to give
        > sound answers) and
        > nothing to conceal. It is an absolute event
        > which comes to us by means of being clear
        > and
        > which without being clear, is constantly
        > and
        > eternaly sustained by being clear.
        >
        > "That is HELP, especially when you are
        > looking to do a non-creative task".
        >
        > Hence we understand that by questioning
        > different minds, without any conductive
        > thread, we could not find different
        > treatments (I doubt it would be possible to
        > dislike sex) meditation is only a postulate
        > in which a process of detachment is more
        > like
        > a complete activity of flight which
        > operates
        > on bare foot (a relaxing of not wearing
        > shoes).
        >
        > M. I. Clear
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have
        > been removed]
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        >
        > Our Home:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > (Includes community book list, chat, and
        > more.)
        >
        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
        > email to:
        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
        > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
        > Our Home:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > (Includes community book list, chat, and
        > more.)
        >
        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
        > to:
        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        >
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        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
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        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        >
        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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        >
        >
        >
      • elbookdoc
        ... That s the pot calling the nail a fastener! I guess
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
          --- In existlist@y..., "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@q...> wrote:
          <<The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his
          rapture destroys his reality base.>>

          That's the pot calling the nail a fastener!

          I guess where I am extreme is that you take this one step further.
          You believe in lots-o-shit for no good reason.

          What if any belief is fanatic rapture?

          preci piss
          --------------------------------------
        • Bill Harris
          Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking on their bloody knees for miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious to their pain. The center isle of
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
            Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking on their bloody knees for miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious to their pain. The center isle of the church which was their destination was a bloody mess. It was obvious they were in a transcendental mind set. It is not uncommen to see individuals so enraptured with religion, mixed with datura or pyote, that they lose touch with common life. They must be fed and cared for by others but are revered as holy people. I was aware of one case where such a person allowed himself to be crucified. He is now revered locally as a saint. This is pathologic behavour, perhaps not scizophrenic. These people have been drawn away from the real world into a mystical existance which causes them harm. The psychatrist who takes psycotropic drugs to aid his patients I would put in a different class. Yet if this behavour causes his life to degrade to uselessness, what has he accomplished. How is he different from the Mexican martyrs? When a person destroys himself for substances or causes where does faith and heroism end and addiction and fanaticism begin? Bill
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: nick a
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:46 AM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


            I'm ~a bit~ out of context....

            Back in the 70's they were *recommending* that professors and medical
            doctors take LSD.... The dose sizes back then were usually much much larger
            than the ones people generally take today.

            Being on LSD is kind of like the schizophrenic experience. I'm actually
            going to school to be a psyhciatrist... I believe if you want to really
            understand people you need to experience not only the sicknesses they have,
            but the means they must endure in order to be cured.... Many will never
            touch a psychoactive drug, while others will take just as many as their
            patients... Any thoughts on this?

            In europe group psycholytic therapy is pretty common.. The therapist(s) will
            take LSD, MDMA, etc with the patients and take notes of their medatative (or
            otherwise) therapy sessions..

            Also, what do you mean Bill, by
            "The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his rapture
            destroys his reality base."

            Who's rapture? The religious fanatic's? Or the schizophrenic's? Or both?
            How do hallucinations "draw people away"??


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 1:47 PM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


            > Charles, Nice. Plato had something over Socrates, Danceaerobics are
            certainly preferable to hemlock. Endorphins are supposedly much better
            anesthetics than opiates. I think Madison Avenue is responsible for much of
            our bodily image obsession.
            > My wife and I followed our viewing of Beautiful Mind with a reviewing of
            Stigmata. She asked me if the religious experience was not much like the
            schizoid break in Beautiful Mind. I think not, It is more akin to what you
            describe as mystical relaxation. Yet a retreat to religious experience for
            comfort does rival the running away to the pleasant that the protagonist
            experienced in his initial delusions. He wanted to be a spy hero and his
            very facile mind repeatedly allowed the experience. The religious fanatic
            seems much like the schizophrenic when his rapture destroys his reality
            base. It is that step I have not taken, to the place of visual and auditory
            hallucinations that draws people away , forever.
            > Chasing the dragon with drugs is the same dangerous game. I think bookdoc
            understands more than I where this line is drawn and how to cope with the
            temptation to cross. I suspect you also know more than you would wish to
            explain. For me I will repeat my advice to Elisabeth to myself. My god will
            have to suffice for me. Thanks for the peek , Bill
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Charles
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:13 PM
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
            >
            >
            > Bill,
            >
            > Your post remainds me somehow of the ideal
            > "Republic" in which Plato recomends the use
            > of gymnastics
            > and music as the ideal combination for a
            > healthy life. Likewise, I practice and enjoy
            > this variation as being
            > more practical and less dangerous than
            > meditation or hypnosis. The brain seems to
            > release a sort of narcotic
            > substance that increases the pleasure of
            > strong physical activities. What I still
            > don't understand is
            > this contemporary obsession with health and
            > beauty in the individuals which I consider
            > out of reach and
            > impossible; time is unforgiven in this
            > respect.
            >
            > In any case, meditation, contemplation or
            > hypnosis, things with which I am not too
            > familiar, and are always
            > controversial, seem to lead the mind into a
            > state of mystical relaxation which borders on
            > the threshold of
            > an unconscious religious belief, and in
            > which, the participating subject, with
            > perhaps the aid of supernatural
            > entities, aspires to become God himself, or
            > Nature, in order to avoid the inevitable and
            > general problems
            > of existence (anxiety, anguish, despair...)
            > by the use of a tranquilizing technique with
            > spiritualistic goals
            > based on ancient reports of religious
            > ecstasy and religious trance. Knowing that in
            > this life, no matter what
            > we do, there are always more pains to endure
            > than pleasures to enjoy, I prefer to remain
            > at the common
            > sense level and bear the consequences of a
            > hopeless redemption. Why is it that it is
            > precisely that what
            > we don't have is what we think is going to
            > make us happy? Most people are always trying
            > to avoid the
            > daily problems of existence by making the
            > unwanted use of opportunistic quacks who
            > allege, for example,
            > that they can enhance the performance of an
            > athlete or cure otherwise hopeless diseases.
            > Mind you the
            > dangerous possible outcomes.
            >
            > Charles
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Bill Harris"
            > <valleywestdental@...>
            > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:05 AM
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
            >
            >
            > Charles , I use a variant of meditation.
            > While riding my bike or Nordic skiing, the
            > rhythm of the physical activity allows me an
            > altered state of mental relaxation. I could
            > liken it to decrementing a computer disk
            > drive. I find the coactivity helps remove
            > distraction. I am just busy enough to not
            > notice distractions that would interfere with
            > silent meditation. An ethical hypnotherapist
            > is probable not financially possible for
            > most people. I would never use non
            > professional, unlicensed people for hypnosis.
            > I will not go into the possible dangers but
            > they are numerous. Running could serve as a
            > framework for the relaxation technique I use.
            > Swimming might also work. By using this
            > technique you relax the mind and exercise the
            > body simultaneously. Miles seem to slip by
            > and the physical discomforts of the exercise
            > regime are lessened. I find long, flat spaces
            > work best and I use a bike computer to
            > monitor speed, gear and revolutions which
            > helps keep me at a steady state. It is a very
            > relaxing experience and at the end I feel
            > defragged. I came upon it accidentally when
            > I lost track of several odometer registered
            > miles. Bill
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Charles
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:05 PM
            > Subject: [existlist] Chivas
            >
            >
            > "On re-reading I thought my post rather
            > awful. It might have been the
            > Chivas that made my post sound clever at
            > the
            > time"
            >
            > If I were you, which I am not or which I
            > may
            > be, I would stick with the
            > Chivas, to answer laimly questions (to give
            > sound answers) and
            > nothing to conceal. It is an absolute event
            > which comes to us by means of being clear
            > and
            > which without being clear, is constantly
            > and
            > eternaly sustained by being clear.
            >
            > "That is HELP, especially when you are
            > looking to do a non-creative task".
            >
            > Hence we understand that by questioning
            > different minds, without any conductive
            > thread, we could not find different
            > treatments (I doubt it would be possible to
            > dislike sex) meditation is only a postulate
            > in which a process of detachment is more
            > like
            > a complete activity of flight which
            > operates
            > on bare foot (a relaxing of not wearing
            > shoes).
            >
            > M. I. Clear
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have
            > been removed]
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            >
            > Our Home:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and
            > more.)
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
            > email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >
            > Our Home:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and
            > more.)
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
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            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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            >
            >
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            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bill Harris
            Bookdoc, that is where I really think it rests. If you have made the leap of faith you have thrown yourself into the unknowable world of the metaphysical. For
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
              Bookdoc, that is where I really think it rests. If you have made the leap of faith you have thrown yourself into the unknowable world of the metaphysical. For seven years I climbed mountains so I went to see Sylvester Stillones "Cliff Hanger" . In climbing the safest position is to have both hands and both feet supporting you on the rock face. Every time you move an appendage you increase your risk. If you move your hand you check the new hand hold to be sure it is stable and supportive before you transfer weight to the new anchor. The same goes for your foot rests. That is the safe and reasonable way up a face. Sly however preferred to leap from place to place. he had no idea if his intended landing spots were supportive or if the leap itself would be successful. I think you get my point.
              You have changed my view as to the ultimate reason for being rationally based or faith based. There is none. It is nothing more than a personal choice we make. Some think it best to take the leap some do not, some think the whole thing absurd. Bill
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: elbookdoc
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:08 AM
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Chivas and other gods


              --- In existlist@y..., "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@q...> wrote:
              <<The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his
              rapture destroys his reality base.>>

              That's the pot calling the nail a fastener!

              I guess where I am extreme is that you take this one step further.
              You believe in lots-o-shit for no good reason.

              What if any belief is fanatic rapture?

              preci piss
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bill Harris
              Bookdoc, The big bang was an energy phenomenon. Because of the extreme temperatures present all matter, even the most fundamental, was fused and reduced to
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
                Bookdoc, The big bang was an energy phenomenon. Because of the extreme temperatures present all matter, even the most fundamental, was fused and reduced to pure energy. This energy was manifest as extreme temperature. Since then matter coalesced to the determent of energy. The Hubble constant says the universe will continue to expand, growing colder and more dim. More and more matter will be bound up in super massive black holes. Finally we are left with only gravity and matter. That is an absurd condition that could only result in---- A big bang. Bill
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: elbookdoc
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:08 AM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Chivas and other gods


                --- In existlist@y..., "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@q...> wrote:
                <<The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his
                rapture destroys his reality base.>>

                That's the pot calling the nail a fastener!

                I guess where I am extreme is that you take this one step further.
                You believe in lots-o-shit for no good reason.

                What if any belief is fanatic rapture?

                preci piss
                --------------------------------------


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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • nick a
                Okay. I wasn t current on that thread, but the tone seemed a bit peculiar to me, and I just wanted to get some opinions clarified... :-) (I think) Now it
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
                  Okay. I wasn't current on that thread, but the tone seemed a bit peculiar
                  to me, and I just wanted to get some opinions clarified... :-)

                  (I think)

                  Now it makes sense...

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:10 AM
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                  > Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking on their bloody knees for
                  miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious to their pain. The center
                  isle of the church which was their destination was a bloody mess. It was
                  obvious they were in a transcendental mind set. It is not uncommen to see
                  individuals so enraptured with religion, mixed with datura or pyote, that
                  they lose touch with common life. They must be fed and cared for by others
                  but are revered as holy people. I was aware of one case where such a person
                  allowed himself to be crucified. He is now revered locally as a saint. This
                  is pathologic behavour, perhaps not scizophrenic. These people have been
                  drawn away from the real world into a mystical existance which causes them
                  harm. The psychatrist who takes psycotropic drugs to aid his patients I
                  would put in a different class. Yet if this behavour causes his life to
                  degrade to uselessness, what has he accomplished. How is he different from
                  the Mexican martyrs? When a person destroys himself for substances or
                  causes where does faith and heroism end and addiction and fanaticism
                  begin? Bill
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: nick a
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:46 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm ~a bit~ out of context....
                  >
                  > Back in the 70's they were *recommending* that professors and medical
                  > doctors take LSD.... The dose sizes back then were usually much much
                  larger
                  > than the ones people generally take today.
                  >
                  > Being on LSD is kind of like the schizophrenic experience. I'm actually
                  > going to school to be a psyhciatrist... I believe if you want to really
                  > understand people you need to experience not only the sicknesses they
                  have,
                  > but the means they must endure in order to be cured.... Many will never
                  > touch a psychoactive drug, while others will take just as many as their
                  > patients... Any thoughts on this?
                  >
                  > In europe group psycholytic therapy is pretty common.. The therapist(s)
                  will
                  > take LSD, MDMA, etc with the patients and take notes of their medatative
                  (or
                  > otherwise) therapy sessions..
                  >
                  > Also, what do you mean Bill, by
                  > "The religious fanatic seems much like the schizophrenic when his
                  rapture
                  > destroys his reality base."
                  >
                  > Who's rapture? The religious fanatic's? Or the schizophrenic's? Or
                  both?
                  > How do hallucinations "draw people away"??
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 1:47 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                  >
                  >
                  > > Charles, Nice. Plato had something over Socrates, Danceaerobics are
                  > certainly preferable to hemlock. Endorphins are supposedly much better
                  > anesthetics than opiates. I think Madison Avenue is responsible for
                  much of
                  > our bodily image obsession.
                  > > My wife and I followed our viewing of Beautiful Mind with a reviewing
                  of
                  > Stigmata. She asked me if the religious experience was not much like
                  the
                  > schizoid break in Beautiful Mind. I think not, It is more akin to what
                  you
                  > describe as mystical relaxation. Yet a retreat to religious experience
                  for
                  > comfort does rival the running away to the pleasant that the protagonist
                  > experienced in his initial delusions. He wanted to be a spy hero and his
                  > very facile mind repeatedly allowed the experience. The religious
                  fanatic
                  > seems much like the schizophrenic when his rapture destroys his reality
                  > base. It is that step I have not taken, to the place of visual and
                  auditory
                  > hallucinations that draws people away , forever.
                  > > Chasing the dragon with drugs is the same dangerous game. I think
                  bookdoc
                  > understands more than I where this line is drawn and how to cope with
                  the
                  > temptation to cross. I suspect you also know more than you would wish
                  to
                  > explain. For me I will repeat my advice to Elisabeth to myself. My god
                  will
                  > have to suffice for me. Thanks for the peek , Bill
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: Charles
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:13 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Bill,
                  > >
                  > > Your post remainds me somehow of the ideal
                  > > "Republic" in which Plato recomends the use
                  > > of gymnastics
                  > > and music as the ideal combination for a
                  > > healthy life. Likewise, I practice and enjoy
                  > > this variation as being
                  > > more practical and less dangerous than
                  > > meditation or hypnosis. The brain seems to
                  > > release a sort of narcotic
                  > > substance that increases the pleasure of
                  > > strong physical activities. What I still
                  > > don't understand is
                  > > this contemporary obsession with health and
                  > > beauty in the individuals which I consider
                  > > out of reach and
                  > > impossible; time is unforgiven in this
                  > > respect.
                  > >
                  > > In any case, meditation, contemplation or
                  > > hypnosis, things with which I am not too
                  > > familiar, and are always
                  > > controversial, seem to lead the mind into a
                  > > state of mystical relaxation which borders on
                  > > the threshold of
                  > > an unconscious religious belief, and in
                  > > which, the participating subject, with
                  > > perhaps the aid of supernatural
                  > > entities, aspires to become God himself, or
                  > > Nature, in order to avoid the inevitable and
                  > > general problems
                  > > of existence (anxiety, anguish, despair...)
                  > > by the use of a tranquilizing technique with
                  > > spiritualistic goals
                  > > based on ancient reports of religious
                  > > ecstasy and religious trance. Knowing that in
                  > > this life, no matter what
                  > > we do, there are always more pains to endure
                  > > than pleasures to enjoy, I prefer to remain
                  > > at the common
                  > > sense level and bear the consequences of a
                  > > hopeless redemption. Why is it that it is
                  > > precisely that what
                  > > we don't have is what we think is going to
                  > > make us happy? Most people are always trying
                  > > to avoid the
                  > > daily problems of existence by making the
                  > > unwanted use of opportunistic quacks who
                  > > allege, for example,
                  > > that they can enhance the performance of an
                  > > athlete or cure otherwise hopeless diseases.
                  > > Mind you the
                  > > dangerous possible outcomes.
                  > >
                  > > Charles
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Bill Harris"
                  > > <valleywestdental@...>
                  > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:05 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Charles , I use a variant of meditation.
                  > > While riding my bike or Nordic skiing, the
                  > > rhythm of the physical activity allows me an
                  > > altered state of mental relaxation. I could
                  > > liken it to decrementing a computer disk
                  > > drive. I find the coactivity helps remove
                  > > distraction. I am just busy enough to not
                  > > notice distractions that would interfere with
                  > > silent meditation. An ethical hypnotherapist
                  > > is probable not financially possible for
                  > > most people. I would never use non
                  > > professional, unlicensed people for hypnosis.
                  > > I will not go into the possible dangers but
                  > > they are numerous. Running could serve as a
                  > > framework for the relaxation technique I use.
                  > > Swimming might also work. By using this
                  > > technique you relax the mind and exercise the
                  > > body simultaneously. Miles seem to slip by
                  > > and the physical discomforts of the exercise
                  > > regime are lessened. I find long, flat spaces
                  > > work best and I use a bike computer to
                  > > monitor speed, gear and revolutions which
                  > > helps keep me at a steady state. It is a very
                  > > relaxing experience and at the end I feel
                  > > defragged. I came upon it accidentally when
                  > > I lost track of several odometer registered
                  > > miles. Bill
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: Charles
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:05 PM
                  > > Subject: [existlist] Chivas
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "On re-reading I thought my post rather
                  > > awful. It might have been the
                  > > Chivas that made my post sound clever at
                  > > the
                  > > time"
                  > >
                  > > If I were you, which I am not or which I
                  > > may
                  > > be, I would stick with the
                  > > Chivas, to answer laimly questions (to give
                  > > sound answers) and
                  > > nothing to conceal. It is an absolute event
                  > > which comes to us by means of being clear
                  > > and
                  > > which without being clear, is constantly
                  > > and
                  > > eternaly sustained by being clear.
                  > >
                  > > "That is HELP, especially when you are
                  > > looking to do a non-creative task".
                  > >
                  > > Hence we understand that by questioning
                  > > different minds, without any conductive
                  > > thread, we could not find different
                  > > treatments (I doubt it would be possible to
                  > > dislike sex) meditation is only a postulate
                  > > in which a process of detachment is more
                  > > like
                  > > a complete activity of flight which
                  > > operates
                  > > on bare foot (a relaxing of not wearing
                  > > shoes).
                  > >
                  > > M. I. Clear
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have
                  > > been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                • Eduard Alf
                  Bill, I am not getting the emails in sequence ... :-(( Anyway, I should think that there is a fundamental difference between the religious experience that you
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
                    Bill,

                    I am not getting the emails in sequence ... :-((

                    Anyway, I should think that there is a fundamental
                    difference between the religious experience that
                    you describe and simple taking of drugs. Although
                    it is probably the case that the taking of drugs
                    is more widely spread than just for the religious,
                    its use in American consumer culture is an
                    entirely different thing. Without the control of
                    religion, drug taking becomes just another
                    addiction.

                    eduard

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: nick a [mailto:res0nthw@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:23 PM
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                    Okay. I wasn't current on that thread, but the
                    tone seemed a bit peculiar
                    to me, and I just wanted to get some opinions
                    clarified... :-)

                    (I think)

                    Now it makes sense...

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:10 AM
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas

                    > Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking
                    on their bloody knees for
                    miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious
                    to their pain. The center
                    isle of the church which was their destination was
                    a bloody mess. It was
                    obvious they were in a transcendental mind set.
                    It is not uncommen to see
                    individuals so enraptured with religion, mixed
                    with datura or pyote, that
                    they lose touch with common life. They must be
                    fed and cared for by others
                    but are revered as holy people. I was aware of one
                    case where such a person
                    allowed himself to be crucified. He is now revered
                    locally as a saint. This
                    is pathologic behavour, perhaps not scizophrenic.
                    These people have been
                    drawn away from the real world into a mystical
                    existance which causes them
                    harm. The psychatrist who takes psycotropic drugs
                    to aid his patients I
                    would put in a different class. Yet if this
                    behavour causes his life to
                    degrade to uselessness, what has he accomplished.
                    How is he different from
                    the Mexican martyrs? When a person destroys
                    himself for substances or
                    causes where does faith and heroism end and
                    addiction and fanaticism
                    begin? Bill
                  • Bill Harris
                    Eduard, Let`s split the religion away from the drug usage, for clarity s sake. In A Childs Garden of Grass a person can be pre programmed to experience
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                      Eduard, Let`s split the religion away from the drug usage, for clarity's
                      sake. In "A Childs Garden of Grass" a person can be pre programmed to
                      experience certain pleasant sensations and thoughts during cannabis usage.
                      Let`s say a person understands potency, dosage, possible side effects,
                      duration, effects and legal implications. He knows this experience will end
                      when the duration of the drug is over. It will not change his economics, his
                      world view, nor will it impose a faith based cosmology on him for the rest
                      of his life. A decision to try the drug limits his personal freedom during
                      the time of the drugs duration. The drugs effects are finite. Religion is an
                      entirely different matter, as is methamphetamine , as is opium, as is
                      ecstasy, as is alcohol. Each mixed with any of the rest of the above
                      mentioned entities is an entirely different matter. Trying any of the above
                      mentioned entities is a serious matter, and for each the reasons are
                      different. How much of this is considered when a friend says"Smoke some of
                      this shit" ,or " Come to church with me this Sunday" . Bill
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:57 PM
                      Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                      > Bill,
                      >
                      > I am not getting the emails in sequence ... :-((
                      >
                      > Anyway, I should think that there is a fundamental
                      > difference between the religious experience that
                      > you describe and simple taking of drugs. Although
                      > it is probably the case that the taking of drugs
                      > is more widely spread than just for the religious,
                      > its use in American consumer culture is an
                      > entirely different thing. Without the control of
                      > religion, drug taking becomes just another
                      > addiction.
                      >
                      > eduard
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: nick a [mailto:res0nthw@...]
                      > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:23 PM
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                      >
                      >
                      > Okay. I wasn't current on that thread, but the
                      > tone seemed a bit peculiar
                      > to me, and I just wanted to get some opinions
                      > clarified... :-)
                      >
                      > (I think)
                      >
                      > Now it makes sense...
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
                      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 8:10 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                      >
                      > > Nick, I was in Mexico and saw old women walking
                      > on their bloody knees for
                      > miles. They were chanting and praying, oblivious
                      > to their pain. The center
                      > isle of the church which was their destination was
                      > a bloody mess. It was
                      > obvious they were in a transcendental mind set.
                      > It is not uncommen to see
                      > individuals so enraptured with religion, mixed
                      > with datura or pyote, that
                      > they lose touch with common life. They must be
                      > fed and cared for by others
                      > but are revered as holy people. I was aware of one
                      > case where such a person
                      > allowed himself to be crucified. He is now revered
                      > locally as a saint. This
                      > is pathologic behavour, perhaps not scizophrenic.
                      > These people have been
                      > drawn away from the real world into a mystical
                      > existance which causes them
                      > harm. The psychatrist who takes psycotropic drugs
                      > to aid his patients I
                      > would put in a different class. Yet if this
                      > behavour causes his life to
                      > degrade to uselessness, what has he accomplished.
                      > How is he different from
                      > the Mexican martyrs? When a person destroys
                      > himself for substances or
                      > causes where does faith and heroism end and
                      > addiction and fanaticism
                      > begin? Bill
                      >
                      >
                      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                      >
                      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Eduard Alf
                      Bill, I don t think that one can separate out religion from drugs. When drugs are used within the context of religion, there is some control. Religions have
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                        Bill,

                        I don't think that one can separate out religion
                        from drugs. When drugs are used within the
                        context of religion, there is some control.
                        Religions have used drugs for centuries, although
                        alternate means have been used for religious
                        experiences. In any case, to relate drug use in
                        the modern sense to what went on before. Today,
                        drugs are used as an escape from life, whereas
                        previously they were used to obtain a direction in
                        life.

                        eduard

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Bill Harris
                        [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:29 PM
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                        Eduard, Let`s split the religion away from the
                        drug usage, for clarity's
                        sake. In "A Childs Garden of Grass" a person can
                        be pre programmed to
                        experience certain pleasant sensations and
                        thoughts during cannabis usage.
                        Let`s say a person understands potency, dosage,
                        possible side effects,
                        duration, effects and legal implications. He knows
                        this experience will end
                        when the duration of the drug is over. It will not
                        change his economics, his
                        world view, nor will it impose a faith based
                        cosmology on him for the rest
                        of his life. A decision to try the drug limits his
                        personal freedom during
                        the time of the drugs duration. The drugs effects
                        are finite. Religion is an
                        entirely different matter, as is methamphetamine ,
                        as is opium, as is
                        ecstasy, as is alcohol. Each mixed with any of the
                        rest of the above
                        mentioned entities is an entirely different
                        matter. Trying any of the above
                        mentioned entities is a serious matter, and for
                        each the reasons are
                        different. How much of this is considered when a
                        friend says"Smoke some of
                        this shit" ,or " Come to church with me this
                        Sunday" . Bill
                      • Bill Harris
                        Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill ... From: Eduard Alf To: Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:57 PM
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                          Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:57 PM
                          Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                          > Bill,
                          >
                          > I don't think that one can separate out religion
                          > from drugs. When drugs are used within the
                          > context of religion, there is some control.
                          > Religions have used drugs for centuries, although
                          > alternate means have been used for religious
                          > experiences. In any case, to relate drug use in
                          > the modern sense to what went on before. Today,
                          > drugs are used as an escape from life, whereas
                          > previously they were used to obtain a direction in
                          > life.
                          >
                          > eduard
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Bill Harris
                          > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                          > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:29 PM
                          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                          >
                          >
                          > Eduard, Let`s split the religion away from the
                          > drug usage, for clarity's
                          > sake. In "A Childs Garden of Grass" a person can
                          > be pre programmed to
                          > experience certain pleasant sensations and
                          > thoughts during cannabis usage.
                          > Let`s say a person understands potency, dosage,
                          > possible side effects,
                          > duration, effects and legal implications. He knows
                          > this experience will end
                          > when the duration of the drug is over. It will not
                          > change his economics, his
                          > world view, nor will it impose a faith based
                          > cosmology on him for the rest
                          > of his life. A decision to try the drug limits his
                          > personal freedom during
                          > the time of the drugs duration. The drugs effects
                          > are finite. Religion is an
                          > entirely different matter, as is methamphetamine ,
                          > as is opium, as is
                          > ecstasy, as is alcohol. Each mixed with any of the
                          > rest of the above
                          > mentioned entities is an entirely different
                          > matter. Trying any of the above
                          > mentioned entities is a serious matter, and for
                          > each the reasons are
                          > different. How much of this is considered when a
                          > friend says"Smoke some of
                          > this shit" ,or " Come to church with me this
                          > Sunday" . Bill
                          >
                          >
                          > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                          >
                          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Eduard Alf
                          Bill, Depends upon your point of view. The direction may be false, but then it is no better or worse than directions taken on the basis of non-religious
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                            Bill,

                            Depends upon your point of view. The direction
                            may be false, but then it is no better or worse
                            than directions taken on the basis of
                            non-religious thinking ...

                            But then I wonder about my own thinking. I am
                            sitting here in my underwear, with an iced towel
                            on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We had 36c
                            yesterday and it is likely as much today. I am
                            not used to this weather. The way things are
                            going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                            conditioner ...

                            eduard

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Bill Harris
                            [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                            Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                          • Bill Harris
                            Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I love it. Rode 108 miles on my bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here we would call you a heat pussey. Bill ...
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                              Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I love it. Rode 108 miles on my
                              bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here we would call you a heat
                              pussey. Bill
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                              Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                              > Bill,
                              >
                              > Depends upon your point of view. The direction
                              > may be false, but then it is no better or worse
                              > than directions taken on the basis of
                              > non-religious thinking ...
                              >
                              > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I am
                              > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced towel
                              > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We had 36c
                              > yesterday and it is likely as much today. I am
                              > not used to this weather. The way things are
                              > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                              > conditioner ...
                              >
                              > eduard
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Bill Harris
                              > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                              > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                              >
                              >
                              > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                              >
                              >
                              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                              >
                              > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                              > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Eduard Alf
                              Dearest Bill, It is a totally different kind of heat up here. Much hotter. It has to do with quantum mechanics or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                                Dearest Bill,

                                It is a totally different kind of heat up here.
                                Much hotter. It has to do with quantum mechanics
                                or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                                Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I think
                                I will hide in the basement ....

                                eduard



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Bill Harris
                                [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I love
                                it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here we
                                would call you a heat
                                pussey. Bill
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                                > Bill,
                                >
                                > Depends upon your point of view. The direction
                                > may be false, but then it is no better or worse
                                > than directions taken on the basis of
                                > non-religious thinking ...
                                >
                                > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I am
                                > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced towel
                                > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We had
                                36c
                                > yesterday and it is likely as much today. I am
                                > not used to this weather. The way things are
                                > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                                > conditioner ...
                                >
                                > eduard
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Bill Harris
                                > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                >
                                >
                                > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                >
                                >
                                > Our Home:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                >
                                > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
                                to:
                                > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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                              • Charles
                                Eduard, Maybe your neurons are not that happy today, but I would have to agree with how annoying this kind of whether is to me too; 102F around here today,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                                  Eduard,

                                  Maybe your neurons are not that happy today,
                                  but I would have to agree with how annoying
                                  this kind of
                                  whether is to me too; 102F around here today,
                                  nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                                  basement all
                                  day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                  instead of quantun mechanics, I think is has
                                  more to do with "bad
                                  faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                  faith" at the same time. According to some
                                  people, this consist
                                  in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                                  single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                                  responsible freedom
                                  of Being-for-itself resting on a vacillation
                                  between trascendence and facticity which
                                  refuses to recognize
                                  either one for what it really is or to
                                  synthesize them. (see key to special
                                  terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                  Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                  about all this nonsense, worthless, useless,
                                  trash, junk, jargon of
                                  "faith".

                                  By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                  believe that with the advancement of
                                  knowledge in technological and
                                  cosmological developments, this little
                                  species of ours, for which, existence itself
                                  may be just a property of its
                                  being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                  stability which can compensate for
                                  enviromental changes and thus
                                  reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                                  happiness is just an empty word like justice
                                  and freedom. This
                                  post, for instance, is just another thing I
                                  am doing being determined by previous
                                  experiences. It is not my
                                  choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                                  to do it. I can't help it.

                                  Charles


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                                  Dearest Bill,

                                  It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                  here.
                                  Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                  mechanics
                                  or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                                  Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                                  think
                                  I will hide in the basement ....

                                  eduard



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Bill Harris
                                  [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                  Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                  Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                                  love
                                  it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                  bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here
                                  we
                                  would call you a heat
                                  pussey. Bill
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                                  > Bill,
                                  >
                                  > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                  direction
                                  > may be false, but then it is no better or
                                  worse
                                  > than directions taken on the basis of
                                  > non-religious thinking ...
                                  >
                                  > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I
                                  am
                                  > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced
                                  towel
                                  > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                                  had
                                  36c
                                  > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                                  I am
                                  > not used to this weather. The way things
                                  are
                                  > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                                  > conditioner ...
                                  >
                                  > eduard
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Bill Harris
                                  > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Our Home:
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                  more.)
                                  >
                                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                  email
                                  to:
                                  > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


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                                • Eduard Alf
                                  Charles, I think I would melt at 102f ... I have never encountered such a temperature. my neurons are happy ... it is just my body which is having a problem
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 3, 2002
                                    Charles,

                                    I think I would melt at 102f ... I have never
                                    encountered such a temperature.

                                    my neurons are happy ... it is just my body which
                                    is having a problem ...

                                    eduard

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Charles [mailto:cvas2002@...]
                                    Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:49 PM
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                    Eduard,

                                    Maybe your neurons are not that happy today,
                                    but I would have to agree with how annoying
                                    this kind of
                                    whether is to me too; 102F around here today,
                                    nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                                    basement all
                                    day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                    instead of quantun mechanics, I think is has
                                    more to do with "bad
                                    faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                    faith" at the same time. According to some
                                    people, this consist
                                    in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                                    single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                                    responsible freedom
                                    of Being-for-itself resting on a vacillation
                                    between trascendence and facticity which
                                    refuses to recognize
                                    either one for what it really is or to
                                    synthesize them. (see key to special
                                    terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                    Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                    about all this nonsense, worthless, useless,
                                    trash, junk, jargon of
                                    "faith".

                                    By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                    believe that with the advancement of
                                    knowledge in technological and
                                    cosmological developments, this little
                                    species of ours, for which, existence itself
                                    may be just a property of its
                                    being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                    stability which can compensate for
                                    enviromental changes and thus
                                    reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                                    happiness is just an empty word like justice
                                    and freedom. This
                                    post, for instance, is just another thing I
                                    am doing being determined by previous
                                    experiences. It is not my
                                    choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                                    to do it. I can't help it.

                                    Charles


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                                    Dearest Bill,

                                    It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                    here.
                                    Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                    mechanics
                                    or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                                    Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                                    think
                                    I will hide in the basement ....

                                    eduard



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Bill Harris
                                    [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                    Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                    Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                                    love
                                    it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                    bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here
                                    we
                                    would call you a heat
                                    pussey. Bill
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                                    > Bill,
                                    >
                                    > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                    direction
                                    > may be false, but then it is no better or
                                    worse
                                    > than directions taken on the basis of
                                    > non-religious thinking ...
                                    >
                                    > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I
                                    am
                                    > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced
                                    towel
                                    > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                                    had
                                    36c
                                    > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                                    I am
                                    > not used to this weather. The way things
                                    are
                                    > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                                    > conditioner ...
                                    >
                                    > eduard
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Bill Harris
                                    > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Our Home:
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                    more.)
                                    >
                                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                    email
                                    to:
                                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    Our Home:
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                                  • Bill Harris
                                    Charles, It is easy to become depressed with the situation of the species, still we have not discovered any species further evolved. I suppose we have no
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                                      Charles, It is easy to become depressed with the situation of the species,
                                      still we have not discovered any species further evolved. I suppose we have
                                      no templates for comparison so predictions as to our long term survival seem
                                      pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the rest of the bio mass and our
                                      constant predilection to change exempts the species from enrolling in a
                                      stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards seem stacked against us but
                                      retreating to tooth and claw is anything but appealing.
                                      The Western World, after the disastrous carnage of the last century,
                                      seems to be stabilizing as to population and economics. The rest of the
                                      planet is a stick and stone disaster. I really do not understand those
                                      that would have us reconsider old , failed systems of government and
                                      religion. We are to the rear march here in the US. The academy has adopted
                                      the feminist inspired, politically correct posture. It is afraid to
                                      discriminate between ideas and holds all cultural systems as equal. They
                                      have relinquished their traditional role as arbitrars of concept to the
                                      noisy, backward right wing. It is a cowardly stance for which we all pay. A
                                      singular voice like Noam Chomski seems strident in the face of the endless
                                      acquiescence of the academic community . The young are dispersed over
                                      indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and cannot find the numbers or issues
                                      to bring new voice to bear. So it is fortress western world with the
                                      barbarians at the gates and the cowering intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                      You and I Charles will be dead before the next chos reigns. At least we said
                                      our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and good times when the terminus
                                      arrives. Few have lived as well as we do, and that is the best revenge. Bill
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                      > Eduard,
                                      >
                                      > Maybe your neurons are not that happy today,
                                      > but I would have to agree with how annoying
                                      > this kind of
                                      > whether is to me too; 102F around here today,
                                      > nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                                      > basement all
                                      > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                      > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is has
                                      > more to do with "bad
                                      > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                      > faith" at the same time. According to some
                                      > people, this consist
                                      > in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                                      > single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                                      > responsible freedom
                                      > of Being-for-itself resting on a vacillation
                                      > between trascendence and facticity which
                                      > refuses to recognize
                                      > either one for what it really is or to
                                      > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                      > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                      > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                      > about all this nonsense, worthless, useless,
                                      > trash, junk, jargon of
                                      > "faith".
                                      >
                                      > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                      > believe that with the advancement of
                                      > knowledge in technological and
                                      > cosmological developments, this little
                                      > species of ours, for which, existence itself
                                      > may be just a property of its
                                      > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                      > stability which can compensate for
                                      > enviromental changes and thus
                                      > reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                                      > happiness is just an empty word like justice
                                      > and freedom. This
                                      > post, for instance, is just another thing I
                                      > am doing being determined by previous
                                      > experiences. It is not my
                                      > choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                                      > to do it. I can't help it.
                                      >
                                      > Charles
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                      > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Dearest Bill,
                                      >
                                      > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                      > here.
                                      > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                      > mechanics
                                      > or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                                      > Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                                      > think
                                      > I will hide in the basement ....
                                      >
                                      > eduard
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Bill Harris
                                      > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                                      > love
                                      > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                      > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down here
                                      > we
                                      > would call you a heat
                                      > pussey. Bill
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                      > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Bill,
                                      > >
                                      > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                      > direction
                                      > > may be false, but then it is no better or
                                      > worse
                                      > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                      > > non-religious thinking ...
                                      > >
                                      > > But then I wonder about my own thinking. I
                                      > am
                                      > > sitting here in my underwear, with an iced
                                      > towel
                                      > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                                      > had
                                      > 36c
                                      > > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                                      > I am
                                      > > not used to this weather. The way things
                                      > are
                                      > > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                                      > > conditioner ...
                                      > >
                                      > > eduard
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: Bill Harris
                                      > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Our Home:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                      > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                      > more.)
                                      > >
                                      > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                      > email
                                      > to:
                                      > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >
                                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                    • Charles
                                      Bill, As I said before, as human species, we have come a long way in technological developments and I am really impressed, more than anything, with the space
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                                        Bill,

                                        As I said before, as human species, we have
                                        come a long way in technological developments
                                        and I am
                                        really impressed, more than anything, with
                                        the space program as whole. However, The more
                                        I think about
                                        it, I still don't see us getting any where as
                                        if we had a "purpose" even if we don't
                                        survive it. The last one
                                        hundred years have amazed this little human
                                        animal to the point of an innocent childhood
                                        and immaturity
                                        from which he will be unable to escape (this
                                        does not mean that I want to go back in time)
                                        on the contrary,
                                        we have no choice but to keep going, "we have
                                        no choice". There is no way to stop this
                                        continuous flux of
                                        becoming; this relentless passing of being
                                        into being and out of being into nothingness.
                                        Let us suppose
                                        for a moment that the universe has reached
                                        its goal in our lifetime, in that case, we
                                        all will be "happy" and
                                        our expectations wil finally be at an end. We
                                        have attained our aims and goals. In this
                                        context, I don't see
                                        the universe as one big system but rather as
                                        one big disorder of formless matter in space
                                        and time,
                                        disconnected from other possible "universes".
                                        There is no knowledge of self or truth. Do
                                        you believe that
                                        there is another universe besides this little
                                        cosmos we live in?

                                        Happyness will consist therefore in that
                                        smelly and instinctuall animal sexual
                                        atraction that every specie in this planet
                                        have during the mating season, or better yet,
                                        let us assume that it is a good digestion. I
                                        do too plan
                                        to have nice toys, but I seem to be unable to
                                        play with them, in which case, there is no
                                        possibility of revenge
                                        for me.

                                        Bill, I don't know if you can relate my reply
                                        to your post.

                                        Charles

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Bill Harris"
                                        <valleywestdental@...>
                                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:47 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                        Charles, It is easy to become depressed with
                                        the situation of the species,
                                        still we have not discovered any species
                                        further evolved. I suppose we have
                                        no templates for comparison so predictions as
                                        to our long term survival seem
                                        pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the
                                        rest of the bio mass and our
                                        constant predilection to change exempts the
                                        species from enrolling in a
                                        stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards
                                        seem stacked against us but
                                        retreating to tooth and claw is anything but
                                        appealing.
                                        The Western World, after the disastrous
                                        carnage of the last century,
                                        seems to be stabilizing as to population and
                                        economics. The rest of the
                                        planet is a stick and stone disaster. I
                                        really do not understand those
                                        that would have us reconsider old , failed
                                        systems of government and
                                        religion. We are to the rear march here in
                                        the US. The academy has adopted
                                        the feminist inspired, politically correct
                                        posture. It is afraid to
                                        discriminate between ideas and holds all
                                        cultural systems as equal. They
                                        have relinquished their traditional role as
                                        arbitrars of concept to the
                                        noisy, backward right wing. It is a cowardly
                                        stance for which we all pay. A
                                        singular voice like Noam Chomski seems
                                        strident in the face of the endless
                                        acquiescence of the academic community . The
                                        young are dispersed over
                                        indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and
                                        cannot find the numbers or issues
                                        to bring new voice to bear. So it is
                                        fortress western world with the
                                        barbarians at the gates and the cowering
                                        intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                        You and I Charles will be dead before the
                                        next chos reigns. At least we said
                                        our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and
                                        good times when the terminus
                                        arrives. Few have lived as well as we do, and
                                        that is the best revenge. Bill
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                        > Eduard,
                                        >
                                        > Maybe your neurons are not that happy
                                        today,
                                        > but I would have to agree with how annoying
                                        > this kind of
                                        > whether is to me too; 102F around here
                                        today,
                                        > nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                                        > basement all
                                        > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                        > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is
                                        has
                                        > more to do with "bad
                                        > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                        > faith" at the same time. According to some
                                        > people, this consist
                                        > in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                                        > single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                                        > responsible freedom
                                        > of Being-for-itself resting on a
                                        vacillation
                                        > between trascendence and facticity which
                                        > refuses to recognize
                                        > either one for what it really is or to
                                        > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                        > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                        > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                        > about all this nonsense, worthless,
                                        useless,
                                        > trash, junk, jargon of
                                        > "faith".
                                        >
                                        > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                        > believe that with the advancement of
                                        > knowledge in technological and
                                        > cosmological developments, this little
                                        > species of ours, for which, existence
                                        itself
                                        > may be just a property of its
                                        > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                        > stability which can compensate for
                                        > enviromental changes and thus
                                        > reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                                        > happiness is just an empty word like
                                        justice
                                        > and freedom. This
                                        > post, for instance, is just another thing I
                                        > am doing being determined by previous
                                        > experiences. It is not my
                                        > choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                                        > to do it. I can't help it.
                                        >
                                        > Charles
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                        > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Dearest Bill,
                                        >
                                        > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                        > here.
                                        > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                        > mechanics
                                        > or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                                        > Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                                        > think
                                        > I will hide in the basement ....
                                        >
                                        > eduard
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Bill Harris
                                        > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                                        > love
                                        > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                        > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down
                                        here
                                        > we
                                        > would call you a heat
                                        > pussey. Bill
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                        > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Bill,
                                        > >
                                        > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                        > direction
                                        > > may be false, but then it is no better or
                                        > worse
                                        > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                        > > non-religious thinking ...
                                        > >
                                        > > But then I wonder about my own thinking.
                                        I
                                        > am
                                        > > sitting here in my underwear, with an
                                        iced
                                        > towel
                                        > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                                        > had
                                        > 36c
                                        > > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                                        > I am
                                        > > not used to this weather. The way things
                                        > are
                                        > > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                                        > > conditioner ...
                                        > >
                                        > > eduard
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: Bill Harris
                                        > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                        > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Our Home:
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                        > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                        > more.)
                                        > >
                                        > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                        > email
                                        > to:
                                        > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >
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                                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
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                                        > more.)
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                                        >
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                                      • Bill Harris
                                        Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in your post. It is that of a perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You properly make him look back and into
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                                          Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in your post. It is that of a
                                          perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You properly make him look back
                                          and into this cosmos. What else could he see but disorder and formless
                                          matter? Can I suggest he could see the process of his own becoming? That is
                                          his worth, that is his pride.
                                          I have spent time thinking of the big bang. Now I see it as a reaction of
                                          which we see only the second half. The middle or reactive phase itself is
                                          only energy at extreme temperature. What the reagents were before the
                                          reaction is soo different ,it suggests another cosmos, perhaps of different
                                          dimensions. Does part of that entity still exist? Perhaps there are many
                                          others. At any rate we seem earth locked for the foreseeable future. Praise
                                          the Russians for their project idea to go to Mars. Nice idea that will make
                                          no difference for you and I except to hold up the prospect of your fully
                                          evolved heibermench having his look back, feeling damn proud and thankful.
                                          Bill

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:22 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                          > Bill,
                                          >
                                          > As I said before, as human species, we have
                                          > come a long way in technological developments
                                          > and I am
                                          > really impressed, more than anything, with
                                          > the space program as whole. However, The more
                                          > I think about
                                          > it, I still don't see us getting any where as
                                          > if we had a "purpose" even if we don't
                                          > survive it. The last one
                                          > hundred years have amazed this little human
                                          > animal to the point of an innocent childhood
                                          > and immaturity
                                          > from which he will be unable to escape (this
                                          > does not mean that I want to go back in time)
                                          > on the contrary,
                                          > we have no choice but to keep going, "we have
                                          > no choice". There is no way to stop this
                                          > continuous flux of
                                          > becoming; this relentless passing of being
                                          > into being and out of being into nothingness.
                                          > Let us suppose
                                          > for a moment that the universe has reached
                                          > its goal in our lifetime, in that case, we
                                          > all will be "happy" and
                                          > our expectations wil finally be at an end. We
                                          > have attained our aims and goals. In this
                                          > context, I don't see
                                          > the universe as one big system but rather as
                                          > one big disorder of formless matter in space
                                          > and time,
                                          > disconnected from other possible "universes".
                                          > There is no knowledge of self or truth. Do
                                          > you believe that
                                          > there is another universe besides this little
                                          > cosmos we live in?
                                          >
                                          > Happyness will consist therefore in that
                                          > smelly and instinctuall animal sexual
                                          > atraction that every specie in this planet
                                          > have during the mating season, or better yet,
                                          > let us assume that it is a good digestion. I
                                          > do too plan
                                          > to have nice toys, but I seem to be unable to
                                          > play with them, in which case, there is no
                                          > possibility of revenge
                                          > for me.
                                          >
                                          > Bill, I don't know if you can relate my reply
                                          > to your post.
                                          >
                                          > Charles
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "Bill Harris"
                                          > <valleywestdental@...>
                                          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:47 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Charles, It is easy to become depressed with
                                          > the situation of the species,
                                          > still we have not discovered any species
                                          > further evolved. I suppose we have
                                          > no templates for comparison so predictions as
                                          > to our long term survival seem
                                          > pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the
                                          > rest of the bio mass and our
                                          > constant predilection to change exempts the
                                          > species from enrolling in a
                                          > stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards
                                          > seem stacked against us but
                                          > retreating to tooth and claw is anything but
                                          > appealing.
                                          > The Western World, after the disastrous
                                          > carnage of the last century,
                                          > seems to be stabilizing as to population and
                                          > economics. The rest of the
                                          > planet is a stick and stone disaster. I
                                          > really do not understand those
                                          > that would have us reconsider old , failed
                                          > systems of government and
                                          > religion. We are to the rear march here in
                                          > the US. The academy has adopted
                                          > the feminist inspired, politically correct
                                          > posture. It is afraid to
                                          > discriminate between ideas and holds all
                                          > cultural systems as equal. They
                                          > have relinquished their traditional role as
                                          > arbitrars of concept to the
                                          > noisy, backward right wing. It is a cowardly
                                          > stance for which we all pay. A
                                          > singular voice like Noam Chomski seems
                                          > strident in the face of the endless
                                          > acquiescence of the academic community . The
                                          > young are dispersed over
                                          > indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and
                                          > cannot find the numbers or issues
                                          > to bring new voice to bear. So it is
                                          > fortress western world with the
                                          > barbarians at the gates and the cowering
                                          > intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                          > You and I Charles will be dead before the
                                          > next chos reigns. At least we said
                                          > our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and
                                          > good times when the terminus
                                          > arrives. Few have lived as well as we do, and
                                          > that is the best revenge. Bill
                                          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Eduard,
                                          > >
                                          > > Maybe your neurons are not that happy
                                          > today,
                                          > > but I would have to agree with how annoying
                                          > > this kind of
                                          > > whether is to me too; 102F around here
                                          > today,
                                          > > nevermind the humidity. I have been on the
                                          > > basement all
                                          > > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                          > > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is
                                          > has
                                          > > more to do with "bad
                                          > > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                          > > faith" at the same time. According to some
                                          > > people, this consist
                                          > > in lying to ourselves within the unity of a
                                          > > single consciousnes, seeking to escape the
                                          > > responsible freedom
                                          > > of Being-for-itself resting on a
                                          > vacillation
                                          > > between trascendence and facticity which
                                          > > refuses to recognize
                                          > > either one for what it really is or to
                                          > > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                          > > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                          > > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                          > > about all this nonsense, worthless,
                                          > useless,
                                          > > trash, junk, jargon of
                                          > > "faith".
                                          > >
                                          > > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                          > > believe that with the advancement of
                                          > > knowledge in technological and
                                          > > cosmological developments, this little
                                          > > species of ours, for which, existence
                                          > itself
                                          > > may be just a property of its
                                          > > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                          > > stability which can compensate for
                                          > > enviromental changes and thus
                                          > > reach happiness? Personally I believe that
                                          > > happiness is just an empty word like
                                          > justice
                                          > > and freedom. This
                                          > > post, for instance, is just another thing I
                                          > > am doing being determined by previous
                                          > > experiences. It is not my
                                          > > choice; somehow, I think, I am being forced
                                          > > to do it. I can't help it.
                                          > >
                                          > > Charles
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                          > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                          > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Dearest Bill,
                                          > >
                                          > > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                          > > here.
                                          > > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                          > > mechanics
                                          > > or something ... I am not an expert on it.
                                          > > Suffice to say that it is just terrible. I
                                          > > think
                                          > > I will hide in the basement ....
                                          > >
                                          > > eduard
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: Bill Harris
                                          > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                          > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week. I
                                          > > love
                                          > > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                          > > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down
                                          > here
                                          > > we
                                          > > would call you a heat
                                          > > pussey. Bill
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                          > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                          > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > > Bill,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                          > > direction
                                          > > > may be false, but then it is no better or
                                          > > worse
                                          > > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                          > > > non-religious thinking ...
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But then I wonder about my own thinking.
                                          > I
                                          > > am
                                          > > > sitting here in my underwear, with an
                                          > iced
                                          > > towel
                                          > > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here. We
                                          > > had
                                          > > 36c
                                          > > > yesterday and it is likely as much today.
                                          > > I am
                                          > > > not used to this weather. The way things
                                          > > are
                                          > > > going, perhaps I should invest in an air
                                          > > > conditioner ...
                                          > > >
                                          > > > eduard
                                          > > >
                                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > > From: Bill Harris
                                          > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                          > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                          > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Our Home:
                                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                          > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                          > > more.)
                                          > > >
                                          > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                          > > email
                                          > > to:
                                          > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Our Home:
                                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                          > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                          > > more.)
                                          > >
                                          > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                          > email
                                          > > to:
                                          > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
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                                          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Our Home:
                                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                          > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                          > > more.)
                                          > >
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                                          > email
                                          > > to:
                                          > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
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                                          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Our Home:
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                          > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                          > more.)
                                          > >
                                          > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                          > email to:
                                          > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
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                                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Eduard Alf
                                          Bill, Interesting ... When we look at something, our neurons try to find some kind of order. Like gazing at the stars and seeing constellations. But then
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                                            Bill,

                                            Interesting ...

                                            When we look at something, our neurons try to find
                                            some kind of order. Like gazing at the stars and
                                            seeing constellations.

                                            But then there are times when don't find any
                                            order, but giving up is contrary to the rules of
                                            neuron culture. So they come to the conclusion
                                            that it is all "absurd". For the poor neuron, any
                                            conclusion is better than nothing. Even thoughts
                                            of other universes or whatever will do in a pinch.

                                            eduard

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Bill Harris
                                            [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                            Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:21 PM
                                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                            Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in your
                                            post. It is that of a
                                            perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You
                                            properly make him look back
                                            and into this cosmos. What else could he see but
                                            disorder and formless
                                            matter? Can I suggest he could see the process of
                                            his own becoming? That is
                                            his worth, that is his pride.
                                            I have spent time thinking of the big bang. Now I
                                            see it as a reaction of
                                            which we see only the second half. The middle or
                                            reactive phase itself is
                                            only energy at extreme temperature. What the
                                            reagents were before the
                                            reaction is soo different ,it suggests another
                                            cosmos, perhaps of different
                                            dimensions. Does part of that entity still exist?
                                            Perhaps there are many
                                            others. At any rate we seem earth locked for the
                                            foreseeable future. Praise
                                            the Russians for their project idea to go to Mars.
                                            Nice idea that will make
                                            no difference for you and I except to hold up the
                                            prospect of your fully
                                            evolved heibermench having his look back, feeling
                                            damn proud and thankful.
                                            Bill
                                          • Bill Harris
                                            Eduard{The heat pussey} Looks like we all make our own accommodation with the future, and you are right, hopefully it makes each and every one happy. I think
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                                              Eduard{The heat pussey} Looks like we all make our own accommodation with
                                              the future, and you are right, hopefully it makes each and every one happy.
                                              I think Charle`s idea of the hiebermench fellow to be quite elegant. He
                                              could also embody your Omega point being. From his vantage point he could
                                              even announce he ,himself, to be absurd.
                                              For me he might be a difficult stretch. He seems to embody a great many
                                              god like qualities. Since I do not do faith I must hope in an ending that
                                              does not require the all knowing white beard. I think I will stick with
                                              Stephen Hawking`s concept of the endless witling away , neutron by neutron
                                              of the material accumulated in super massive black holes. Bill
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:31 PM
                                              Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas


                                              > Bill,
                                              >
                                              > Interesting ...
                                              >
                                              > When we look at something, our neurons try to find
                                              > some kind of order. Like gazing at the stars and
                                              > seeing constellations.
                                              >
                                              > But then there are times when don't find any
                                              > order, but giving up is contrary to the rules of
                                              > neuron culture. So they come to the conclusion
                                              > that it is all "absurd". For the poor neuron, any
                                              > conclusion is better than nothing. Even thoughts
                                              > of other universes or whatever will do in a pinch.
                                              >
                                              > eduard
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: Bill Harris
                                              > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                              > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:21 PM
                                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in your
                                              > post. It is that of a
                                              > perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You
                                              > properly make him look back
                                              > and into this cosmos. What else could he see but
                                              > disorder and formless
                                              > matter? Can I suggest he could see the process of
                                              > his own becoming? That is
                                              > his worth, that is his pride.
                                              > I have spent time thinking of the big bang. Now I
                                              > see it as a reaction of
                                              > which we see only the second half. The middle or
                                              > reactive phase itself is
                                              > only energy at extreme temperature. What the
                                              > reagents were before the
                                              > reaction is soo different ,it suggests another
                                              > cosmos, perhaps of different
                                              > dimensions. Does part of that entity still exist?
                                              > Perhaps there are many
                                              > others. At any rate we seem earth locked for the
                                              > foreseeable future. Praise
                                              > the Russians for their project idea to go to Mars.
                                              > Nice idea that will make
                                              > no difference for you and I except to hold up the
                                              > prospect of your fully
                                              > evolved heibermench having his look back, feeling
                                              > damn proud and thankful.
                                              > Bill
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
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                                              >
                                            • elbookdoc
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                                                <<then there are times when don't find any
                                                > order, but giving up is contrary to the rules of
                                                > neuron culture. So they come to the conclusion
                                                > that it is all "absurd". >>

                                                Or there might be an absurdity in the order itself.

                                                You repeatedly talk of neurons as if they can think. In what I know
                                                of science, your neuron will be as lacking in cognition as a brick,
                                                though perhaps more chemical, like salt dissolving in water.

                                                From my perspective and the claims of tether to science, your
                                                perspective often seems absurd to me. Not that it matters much to you
                                                and your superior understanding of your personal science.

                                                data fraud, jr.
                                                -------------------------------
                                              • Charles
                                                Bill, As I said at the end of my post, I didn t know if you could relate it to yours, and as is usually the case, I have been misunderstood. The simple fact of
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jul 8, 2002
                                                  Bill,

                                                  As I said at the end of my post, I didn't
                                                  know if you could relate it to yours, and as
                                                  is usually the case, I have
                                                  been misunderstood. The simple fact of
                                                  participating in this forum shows that I am
                                                  completely disatisfied
                                                  with the perfectly evolved human, as you
                                                  called. I spoke of becoming as the passage of
                                                  events in time
                                                  including the coming into being and going out
                                                  of being of any quality; it is not the
                                                  becoming of the individual
                                                  but of the universe. In this sense, the human
                                                  is worthless and humble.

                                                  I have spent time thinking about the Big Bang
                                                  as well, and I believe that the whole theory
                                                  is based on
                                                  mathematical equations which only lead the
                                                  modern scientis to believe in the
                                                  supernatural, in which, you
                                                  don't believe and I don't believe. According
                                                  to the theory, this was the beginning of
                                                  space and time, which,
                                                  I find incomprehensible. But let us suppose
                                                  that we already know what were the reagents
                                                  before the
                                                  reaction occurred suggesting another cosmos,
                                                  perhaps, of different dimensions. That they
                                                  still exist, I don't
                                                  know. It is an illusion if not a dream Bill.
                                                  Neutron by neutron of the material
                                                  accumulated in super massive
                                                  Black Holes. Of course, this is the zenith of
                                                  absurdity (order and disorder at the same
                                                  time). Like Eduard
                                                  said, even thoughts of other universes will
                                                  do in a pinch. Or Bookdoc that there might be
                                                  absurdity in the
                                                  order itself.

                                                  Be as it may, we still don't know, and
                                                  perhaps, will never know. An endless debate
                                                  in which the absurd and
                                                  the ridiculuous will prevail in our lifetime.

                                                  Charles


                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "Bill Harris"
                                                  <valleywestdental@...>
                                                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:21 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                                  Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in
                                                  your post. It is that of a
                                                  perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You
                                                  properly make him look back
                                                  and into this cosmos. What else could he see
                                                  but disorder and formless
                                                  matter? Can I suggest he could see the
                                                  process of his own becoming? That is
                                                  his worth, that is his pride.
                                                  I have spent time thinking of the big bang.
                                                  Now I see it as a reaction of
                                                  which we see only the second half. The middle
                                                  or reactive phase itself is
                                                  only energy at extreme temperature. What the
                                                  reagents were before the
                                                  reaction is soo different ,it suggests
                                                  another cosmos, perhaps of different
                                                  dimensions. Does part of that entity still
                                                  exist? Perhaps there are many
                                                  others. At any rate we seem earth locked for
                                                  the foreseeable future. Praise
                                                  the Russians for their project idea to go to
                                                  Mars. Nice idea that will make
                                                  no difference for you and I except to hold up
                                                  the prospect of your fully
                                                  evolved heibermench having his look back,
                                                  feeling damn proud and thankful.
                                                  Bill

                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                                                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:22 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                                  > Bill,
                                                  >
                                                  > As I said before, as human species, we have
                                                  > come a long way in technological
                                                  developments
                                                  > and I am
                                                  > really impressed, more than anything, with
                                                  > the space program as whole. However, The
                                                  more
                                                  > I think about
                                                  > it, I still don't see us getting any where
                                                  as
                                                  > if we had a "purpose" even if we don't
                                                  > survive it. The last one
                                                  > hundred years have amazed this little human
                                                  > animal to the point of an innocent
                                                  childhood
                                                  > and immaturity
                                                  > from which he will be unable to escape
                                                  (this
                                                  > does not mean that I want to go back in
                                                  time)
                                                  > on the contrary,
                                                  > we have no choice but to keep going, "we
                                                  have
                                                  > no choice". There is no way to stop this
                                                  > continuous flux of
                                                  > becoming; this relentless passing of being
                                                  > into being and out of being into
                                                  nothingness.
                                                  > Let us suppose
                                                  > for a moment that the universe has reached
                                                  > its goal in our lifetime, in that case, we
                                                  > all will be "happy" and
                                                  > our expectations wil finally be at an end.
                                                  We
                                                  > have attained our aims and goals. In this
                                                  > context, I don't see
                                                  > the universe as one big system but rather
                                                  as
                                                  > one big disorder of formless matter in
                                                  space
                                                  > and time,
                                                  > disconnected from other possible
                                                  "universes".
                                                  > There is no knowledge of self or truth. Do
                                                  > you believe that
                                                  > there is another universe besides this
                                                  little
                                                  > cosmos we live in?
                                                  >
                                                  > Happyness will consist therefore in that
                                                  > smelly and instinctuall animal sexual
                                                  > atraction that every specie in this planet
                                                  > have during the mating season, or better
                                                  yet,
                                                  > let us assume that it is a good digestion.
                                                  I
                                                  > do too plan
                                                  > to have nice toys, but I seem to be unable
                                                  to
                                                  > play with them, in which case, there is no
                                                  > possibility of revenge
                                                  > for me.
                                                  >
                                                  > Bill, I don't know if you can relate my
                                                  reply
                                                  > to your post.
                                                  >
                                                  > Charles
                                                  >
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: "Bill Harris"
                                                  > <valleywestdental@...>
                                                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:47 AM
                                                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Charles, It is easy to become depressed
                                                  with
                                                  > the situation of the species,
                                                  > still we have not discovered any species
                                                  > further evolved. I suppose we have
                                                  > no templates for comparison so predictions
                                                  as
                                                  > to our long term survival seem
                                                  > pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the
                                                  > rest of the bio mass and our
                                                  > constant predilection to change exempts
                                                  the
                                                  > species from enrolling in a
                                                  > stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards
                                                  > seem stacked against us but
                                                  > retreating to tooth and claw is anything
                                                  but
                                                  > appealing.
                                                  > The Western World, after the disastrous
                                                  > carnage of the last century,
                                                  > seems to be stabilizing as to population
                                                  and
                                                  > economics. The rest of the
                                                  > planet is a stick and stone disaster. I
                                                  > really do not understand those
                                                  > that would have us reconsider old , failed
                                                  > systems of government and
                                                  > religion. We are to the rear march here in
                                                  > the US. The academy has adopted
                                                  > the feminist inspired, politically correct
                                                  > posture. It is afraid to
                                                  > discriminate between ideas and holds all
                                                  > cultural systems as equal. They
                                                  > have relinquished their traditional role as
                                                  > arbitrars of concept to the
                                                  > noisy, backward right wing. It is a
                                                  cowardly
                                                  > stance for which we all pay. A
                                                  > singular voice like Noam Chomski seems
                                                  > strident in the face of the endless
                                                  > acquiescence of the academic community .
                                                  The
                                                  > young are dispersed over
                                                  > indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and
                                                  > cannot find the numbers or issues
                                                  > to bring new voice to bear. So it is
                                                  > fortress western world with the
                                                  > barbarians at the gates and the cowering
                                                  > intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                                  > You and I Charles will be dead before the
                                                  > next chos reigns. At least we said
                                                  > our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and
                                                  > good times when the terminus
                                                  > arrives. Few have lived as well as we do,
                                                  and
                                                  > that is the best revenge. Bill
                                                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > > Eduard,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Maybe your neurons are not that happy
                                                  > today,
                                                  > > but I would have to agree with how
                                                  annoying
                                                  > > this kind of
                                                  > > whether is to me too; 102F around here
                                                  > today,
                                                  > > nevermind the humidity. I have been on
                                                  the
                                                  > > basement all
                                                  > > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                                  > > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is
                                                  > has
                                                  > > more to do with "bad
                                                  > > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                                  > > faith" at the same time. According to
                                                  some
                                                  > > people, this consist
                                                  > > in lying to ourselves within the unity of
                                                  a
                                                  > > single consciousnes, seeking to escape
                                                  the
                                                  > > responsible freedom
                                                  > > of Being-for-itself resting on a
                                                  > vacillation
                                                  > > between trascendence and facticity which
                                                  > > refuses to recognize
                                                  > > either one for what it really is or to
                                                  > > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                                  > > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                                  > > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                                  > > about all this nonsense, worthless,
                                                  > useless,
                                                  > > trash, junk, jargon of
                                                  > > "faith".
                                                  > >
                                                  > > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                                  > > believe that with the advancement of
                                                  > > knowledge in technological and
                                                  > > cosmological developments, this little
                                                  > > species of ours, for which, existence
                                                  > itself
                                                  > > may be just a property of its
                                                  > > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                                  > > stability which can compensate for
                                                  > > enviromental changes and thus
                                                  > > reach happiness? Personally I believe
                                                  that
                                                  > > happiness is just an empty word like
                                                  > justice
                                                  > > and freedom. This
                                                  > > post, for instance, is just another thing
                                                  I
                                                  > > am doing being determined by previous
                                                  > > experiences. It is not my
                                                  > > choice; somehow, I think, I am being
                                                  forced
                                                  > > to do it. I can't help it.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Charles
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                                  > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                                  > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dearest Bill,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                                  > > here.
                                                  > > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                                  > > mechanics
                                                  > > or something ... I am not an expert on
                                                  it.
                                                  > > Suffice to say that it is just terrible.
                                                  I
                                                  > > think
                                                  > > I will hide in the basement ....
                                                  > >
                                                  > > eduard
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > > From: Bill Harris
                                                  > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week.
                                                  I
                                                  > > love
                                                  > > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                                  > > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down
                                                  > here
                                                  > > we
                                                  > > would call you a heat
                                                  > > pussey. Bill
                                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                                  > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                                  > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Bill,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                                  > > direction
                                                  > > > may be false, but then it is no better
                                                  or
                                                  > > worse
                                                  > > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                                  > > > non-religious thinking ...
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > But then I wonder about my own
                                                  thinking.
                                                  > I
                                                  > > am
                                                  > > > sitting here in my underwear, with an
                                                  > iced
                                                  > > towel
                                                  > > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here.
                                                  We
                                                  > > had
                                                  > > 36c
                                                  > > > yesterday and it is likely as much
                                                  today.
                                                  > > I am
                                                  > > > not used to this weather. The way
                                                  things
                                                  > > are
                                                  > > > going, perhaps I should invest in an
                                                  air
                                                  > > > conditioner ...
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > eduard
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > > > From: Bill Harris
                                                  > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                                  > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                                  > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
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                                                • Bill Harris
                                                  Charles, Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree that mankind will meet an end long before the demise of the cosmos. The extreme forces responsible for
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jul 9, 2002
                                                    Charles, Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree that mankind will meet an
                                                    end long before the demise of the cosmos. The extreme forces responsible for
                                                    foundation and obliterasation are far too violent for a picune species like
                                                    man. We then exist in a packet of time which itself is encapsulated within
                                                    the life of this universe. That idea is not very complicated or mystical
                                                    nor does it push me toward any leaps of faith. I am fascinated by the
                                                    knowledge we have garnished about initial beginnings and final ends. Having
                                                    any idea what happened 15 billion years ago is quite impressive to me.
                                                    The final conclusion is even more difficult to postulate. A winner take
                                                    all poker game between super massive black holes leaves us with some finite
                                                    number of singularities containing all the mass and gravitational force
                                                    inthe universe. The huge x-ray pulses ejected from these monsters will
                                                    dissipate into space when there is no more matter to be speggitified. At
                                                    this point Hawkins neutron evaporation escape begins. He used a time scale
                                                    I was not familiar with but it meant gaga billions of years. Certainly this
                                                    has no relevance to human kind except as a scientific curiosity, yet it
                                                    does put the question in the province of science not in the nut fringe.
                                                    As to weather the absurd and ridiculous prevail in our lifetime is for me
                                                    an individual judgment. I think the bulk of irrational thinking resides in
                                                    the religious people of the world. Splinter existentialist factions like
                                                    NOOism and absurdism are interesting curiosities to me. I doubt they will
                                                    ever be responsible for holy wars or irrational anarchy. Neither of their
                                                    founders impress me with their violent tendencies.
                                                    I think I have a firm enough foundation to live out a life with personal
                                                    purpose and a rough equivalency with the society around me. I will try to
                                                    find out more, probably because of an innate curiosity. I , like you, can
                                                    take position on most of the issues of the time. I want to remain competent
                                                    until the worms or a slug takes my brain. Bill
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                                                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:00 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas


                                                    > Bill,
                                                    >
                                                    > As I said at the end of my post, I didn't
                                                    > know if you could relate it to yours, and as
                                                    > is usually the case, I have
                                                    > been misunderstood. The simple fact of
                                                    > participating in this forum shows that I am
                                                    > completely disatisfied
                                                    > with the perfectly evolved human, as you
                                                    > called. I spoke of becoming as the passage of
                                                    > events in time
                                                    > including the coming into being and going out
                                                    > of being of any quality; it is not the
                                                    > becoming of the individual
                                                    > but of the universe. In this sense, the human
                                                    > is worthless and humble.
                                                    >
                                                    > I have spent time thinking about the Big Bang
                                                    > as well, and I believe that the whole theory
                                                    > is based on
                                                    > mathematical equations which only lead the
                                                    > modern scientis to believe in the
                                                    > supernatural, in which, you
                                                    > don't believe and I don't believe. According
                                                    > to the theory, this was the beginning of
                                                    > space and time, which,
                                                    > I find incomprehensible. But let us suppose
                                                    > that we already know what were the reagents
                                                    > before the
                                                    > reaction occurred suggesting another cosmos,
                                                    > perhaps, of different dimensions. That they
                                                    > still exist, I don't
                                                    > know. It is an illusion if not a dream Bill.
                                                    > Neutron by neutron of the material
                                                    > accumulated in super massive
                                                    > Black Holes. Of course, this is the zenith of
                                                    > absurdity (order and disorder at the same
                                                    > time). Like Eduard
                                                    > said, even thoughts of other universes will
                                                    > do in a pinch. Or Bookdoc that there might be
                                                    > absurdity in the
                                                    > order itself.
                                                    >
                                                    > Be as it may, we still don't know, and
                                                    > perhaps, will never know. An endless debate
                                                    > in which the absurd and
                                                    > the ridiculuous will prevail in our lifetime.
                                                    >
                                                    > Charles
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: "Bill Harris"
                                                    > <valleywestdental@...>
                                                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:21 PM
                                                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Charles, You portray a wonderful illusion in
                                                    > your post. It is that of a
                                                    > perfectly satisfied, fully evolved human. You
                                                    > properly make him look back
                                                    > and into this cosmos. What else could he see
                                                    > but disorder and formless
                                                    > matter? Can I suggest he could see the
                                                    > process of his own becoming? That is
                                                    > his worth, that is his pride.
                                                    > I have spent time thinking of the big bang.
                                                    > Now I see it as a reaction of
                                                    > which we see only the second half. The middle
                                                    > or reactive phase itself is
                                                    > only energy at extreme temperature. What the
                                                    > reagents were before the
                                                    > reaction is soo different ,it suggests
                                                    > another cosmos, perhaps of different
                                                    > dimensions. Does part of that entity still
                                                    > exist? Perhaps there are many
                                                    > others. At any rate we seem earth locked for
                                                    > the foreseeable future. Praise
                                                    > the Russians for their project idea to go to
                                                    > Mars. Nice idea that will make
                                                    > no difference for you and I except to hold up
                                                    > the prospect of your fully
                                                    > evolved heibermench having his look back,
                                                    > feeling damn proud and thankful.
                                                    > Bill
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: "Charles" <cvas2002@...>
                                                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:22 PM
                                                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > > Bill,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > As I said before, as human species, we have
                                                    > > come a long way in technological
                                                    > developments
                                                    > > and I am
                                                    > > really impressed, more than anything, with
                                                    > > the space program as whole. However, The
                                                    > more
                                                    > > I think about
                                                    > > it, I still don't see us getting any where
                                                    > as
                                                    > > if we had a "purpose" even if we don't
                                                    > > survive it. The last one
                                                    > > hundred years have amazed this little human
                                                    > > animal to the point of an innocent
                                                    > childhood
                                                    > > and immaturity
                                                    > > from which he will be unable to escape
                                                    > (this
                                                    > > does not mean that I want to go back in
                                                    > time)
                                                    > > on the contrary,
                                                    > > we have no choice but to keep going, "we
                                                    > have
                                                    > > no choice". There is no way to stop this
                                                    > > continuous flux of
                                                    > > becoming; this relentless passing of being
                                                    > > into being and out of being into
                                                    > nothingness.
                                                    > > Let us suppose
                                                    > > for a moment that the universe has reached
                                                    > > its goal in our lifetime, in that case, we
                                                    > > all will be "happy" and
                                                    > > our expectations wil finally be at an end.
                                                    > We
                                                    > > have attained our aims and goals. In this
                                                    > > context, I don't see
                                                    > > the universe as one big system but rather
                                                    > as
                                                    > > one big disorder of formless matter in
                                                    > space
                                                    > > and time,
                                                    > > disconnected from other possible
                                                    > "universes".
                                                    > > There is no knowledge of self or truth. Do
                                                    > > you believe that
                                                    > > there is another universe besides this
                                                    > little
                                                    > > cosmos we live in?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Happyness will consist therefore in that
                                                    > > smelly and instinctuall animal sexual
                                                    > > atraction that every specie in this planet
                                                    > > have during the mating season, or better
                                                    > yet,
                                                    > > let us assume that it is a good digestion.
                                                    > I
                                                    > > do too plan
                                                    > > to have nice toys, but I seem to be unable
                                                    > to
                                                    > > play with them, in which case, there is no
                                                    > > possibility of revenge
                                                    > > for me.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Bill, I don't know if you can relate my
                                                    > reply
                                                    > > to your post.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Charles
                                                    > >
                                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > > From: "Bill Harris"
                                                    > > <valleywestdental@...>
                                                    > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:47 AM
                                                    > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Charles, It is easy to become depressed
                                                    > with
                                                    > > the situation of the species,
                                                    > > still we have not discovered any species
                                                    > > further evolved. I suppose we have
                                                    > > no templates for comparison so predictions
                                                    > as
                                                    > > to our long term survival seem
                                                    > > pure conjecture. We do not fit in with the
                                                    > > rest of the bio mass and our
                                                    > > constant predilection to change exempts
                                                    > the
                                                    > > species from enrolling in a
                                                    > > stable eco-nitch. I must agree the cards
                                                    > > seem stacked against us but
                                                    > > retreating to tooth and claw is anything
                                                    > but
                                                    > > appealing.
                                                    > > The Western World, after the disastrous
                                                    > > carnage of the last century,
                                                    > > seems to be stabilizing as to population
                                                    > and
                                                    > > economics. The rest of the
                                                    > > planet is a stick and stone disaster. I
                                                    > > really do not understand those
                                                    > > that would have us reconsider old , failed
                                                    > > systems of government and
                                                    > > religion. We are to the rear march here in
                                                    > > the US. The academy has adopted
                                                    > > the feminist inspired, politically correct
                                                    > > posture. It is afraid to
                                                    > > discriminate between ideas and holds all
                                                    > > cultural systems as equal. They
                                                    > > have relinquished their traditional role as
                                                    > > arbitrars of concept to the
                                                    > > noisy, backward right wing. It is a
                                                    > cowardly
                                                    > > stance for which we all pay. A
                                                    > > singular voice like Noam Chomski seems
                                                    > > strident in the face of the endless
                                                    > > acquiescence of the academic community .
                                                    > The
                                                    > > young are dispersed over
                                                    > > indistinguishable generations X,Y,Z and
                                                    > > cannot find the numbers or issues
                                                    > > to bring new voice to bear. So it is
                                                    > > fortress western world with the
                                                    > > barbarians at the gates and the cowering
                                                    > > intelligencia asking them to tea.
                                                    > > You and I Charles will be dead before the
                                                    > > next chos reigns. At least we said
                                                    > > our piece. I plan to have had nice toys and
                                                    > > good times when the terminus
                                                    > > arrives. Few have lived as well as we do,
                                                    > and
                                                    > > that is the best revenge. Bill
                                                    > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > Eduard,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Maybe your neurons are not that happy
                                                    > > today,
                                                    > > > but I would have to agree with how
                                                    > annoying
                                                    > > > this kind of
                                                    > > > whether is to me too; 102F around here
                                                    > > today,
                                                    > > > nevermind the humidity. I have been on
                                                    > the
                                                    > > > basement all
                                                    > > > day long, of course with my AC on. But
                                                    > > > instead of quantun mechanics, I think is
                                                    > > has
                                                    > > > more to do with "bad
                                                    > > > faith" or "good faith" or "good and bad
                                                    > > > faith" at the same time. According to
                                                    > some
                                                    > > > people, this consist
                                                    > > > in lying to ourselves within the unity of
                                                    > a
                                                    > > > single consciousnes, seeking to escape
                                                    > the
                                                    > > > responsible freedom
                                                    > > > of Being-for-itself resting on a
                                                    > > vacillation
                                                    > > > between trascendence and facticity which
                                                    > > > refuses to recognize
                                                    > > > either one for what it really is or to
                                                    > > > synthesize them. (see key to special
                                                    > > > terminology in Sartre's "Being and
                                                    > > > Nothingness"). I wonder what Bill thinks
                                                    > > > about all this nonsense, worthless,
                                                    > > useless,
                                                    > > > trash, junk, jargon of
                                                    > > > "faith".
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > By the way Bill, Do you really think or
                                                    > > > believe that with the advancement of
                                                    > > > knowledge in technological and
                                                    > > > cosmological developments, this little
                                                    > > > species of ours, for which, existence
                                                    > > itself
                                                    > > > may be just a property of its
                                                    > > > being, can in any way maintain a normal
                                                    > > > stability which can compensate for
                                                    > > > enviromental changes and thus
                                                    > > > reach happiness? Personally I believe
                                                    > that
                                                    > > > happiness is just an empty word like
                                                    > > justice
                                                    > > > and freedom. This
                                                    > > > post, for instance, is just another thing
                                                    > I
                                                    > > > am doing being determined by previous
                                                    > > > experiences. It is not my
                                                    > > > choice; somehow, I think, I am being
                                                    > forced
                                                    > > > to do it. I can't help it.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Charles
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                                    > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:24 PM
                                                    > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Dearest Bill,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > It is a totally different kind of heat up
                                                    > > > here.
                                                    > > > Much hotter. It has to do with quantum
                                                    > > > mechanics
                                                    > > > or something ... I am not an expert on
                                                    > it.
                                                    > > > Suffice to say that it is just terrible.
                                                    > I
                                                    > > > think
                                                    > > > I will hide in the basement ....
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > eduard
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > > > From: Bill Harris
                                                    > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                                    > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:25 PM
                                                    > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Eduard, It has been 93f here for a week.
                                                    > I
                                                    > > > love
                                                    > > > it. Rode 108 miles on my
                                                    > > > bike this weekend, averaged 18mph. Down
                                                    > > here
                                                    > > > we
                                                    > > > would call you a heat
                                                    > > > pussey. Bill
                                                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                                    > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:27 PM
                                                    > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Chivas
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > > Bill,
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Depends upon your point of view. The
                                                    > > > direction
                                                    > > > > may be false, but then it is no better
                                                    > or
                                                    > > > worse
                                                    > > > > than directions taken on the basis of
                                                    > > > > non-religious thinking ...
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > But then I wonder about my own
                                                    > thinking.
                                                    > > I
                                                    > > > am
                                                    > > > > sitting here in my underwear, with an
                                                    > > iced
                                                    > > > towel
                                                    > > > > on my head. Wow is it ever hot here.
                                                    > We
                                                    > > > had
                                                    > > > 36c
                                                    > > > > yesterday and it is likely as much
                                                    > today.
                                                    > > > I am
                                                    > > > > not used to this weather. The way
                                                    > things
                                                    > > > are
                                                    > > > > going, perhaps I should invest in an
                                                    > air
                                                    > > > > conditioner ...
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > eduard
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > > > > From: Bill Harris
                                                    > > > > [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
                                                    > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:13 PM
                                                    > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Chivas
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Eduard, OK, but a false direction. Bill
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
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