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death and philosophy

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  • iambiguously
    From time to time I bump into folks who actually let philosophy depress them. They look for meaning that isn t there and rationalizations for all the pain and
    Message 1 of 26 , May 24, 2002
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      From time to time I bump into folks who actually let philosophy
      depress them. They look for meaning that isn't there and
      rationalizations for all the pain and suffering that is. They don't
      find it and so "despair".

      What a waste of time.

      Life is about living. And whether or not there is some "ultimate
      meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single philosopher in
      thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated that there is] it
      certainly does not make the food you eat less delicious or the art
      you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel less exhilarating
      or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you always know that,
      however unbearable the pain can become, it can't last forever, eh?
      Death is always an option when things get too bad.

      The best way to endure that which impales us in the course of living
      our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as deeply as we can
      in distractions: music, sports, careers, art, family etc. Find
      something you can be passionaite about and embrace it. You'll find
      you have much less time to think about how "meaningless" and "futile"
      everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only thing you have to
      worry about is getting caught, right?

      Biggie
    • Charles
      Biggie, I don t quite understand the meaning of your last remark: since god is dead, the only thing you have to worry about is getting caught . It seems to me
      Message 2 of 26 , May 24, 2002
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        Biggie,

        I don't quite understand the meaning of your last remark: "since god is
        dead, the only thing you have to
        worry about is getting caught". It seems to me that you are to the point of
        dismissing philosophy as an
        unimportant and useless practice or taken on Pascal's wager here.

        You are right in saying that no philosopher ever has discovered an "ultimate
        meaning" out there
        somewhere. But in my opinion that's the beauty of philosophy; besides, I
        will agree with Socrates
        in saying that " a life without examining is not worth living". If you enjoy
        or prefer physical to
        intellectual pleasures, that's another matter.

        Charles


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "iambiguously" <iambiguously@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
        Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy


        > From time to time I bump into folks who actually let philosophy
        > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't there and
        > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering that is. They don't
        > find it and so "despair".
        >
        > What a waste of time.
        >
        > Life is about living. And whether or not there is some "ultimate
        > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single philosopher in
        > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated that there is] it
        > certainly does not make the food you eat less delicious or the art
        > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel less exhilarating
        > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you always know that,
        > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't last forever, eh?
        > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
        >
        > The best way to endure that which impales us in the course of living
        > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as deeply as we can
        > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art, family etc. Find
        > something you can be passionaite about and embrace it. You'll find
        > you have much less time to think about how "meaningless" and "futile"
        > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only thing you have to
        > worry about is getting caught, right?
        >
        > Biggie
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        >
        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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        >
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        >
        >
      • adam robertson
        well said, but i find obsession with this meanial interest you describe to be absurd and can not fall hopelessly in love with them. So what am i to do? Adam
        Message 3 of 26 , May 24, 2002
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          well said, but i find obsession with this meanial interest you describe to
          be absurd and can not fall hopelessly in love with them. So what am i to do?

          Adam


          >From: "iambiguously" <iambiguously@...>
          >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
          >Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:04:21 -0000
          >
          >From time to time I bump into folks who actually let philosophy
          >depress them. They look for meaning that isn't there and
          >rationalizations for all the pain and suffering that is. They don't
          >find it and so "despair".
          >
          >What a waste of time.
          >
          >Life is about living. And whether or not there is some "ultimate
          >meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single philosopher in
          >thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated that there is] it
          >certainly does not make the food you eat less delicious or the art
          >you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel less exhilarating
          >or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you always know that,
          >however unbearable the pain can become, it can't last forever, eh?
          >Death is always an option when things get too bad.
          >
          >The best way to endure that which impales us in the course of living
          >our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as deeply as we can
          >in distractions: music, sports, careers, art, family etc. Find
          >something you can be passionaite about and embrace it. You'll find
          >you have much less time to think about how "meaningless" and "futile"
          >everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only thing you have to
          >worry about is getting caught, right?
          >
          >Biggie
          >
          >
          >




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        • Eduard Alf
          Biggie, If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply as we can in distractions, would not a devotion to god fall in this category? Or for that matter a
          Message 4 of 26 , May 24, 2002
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            Biggie,

            If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply as we can in distractions,
            would not a devotion to god fall in this category? Or for that matter a
            devotion to philosophy. You sound like a NOOist ... :-))

            captain jack
            -----Original Message-----
            From: iambiguously [mailto:iambiguously@...]
            Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy


            From time to time I bump into folks who actually let philosophy
            depress them. They look for meaning that isn't there and
            rationalizations for all the pain and suffering that is. They don't
            find it and so "despair".

            What a waste of time.

            Life is about living. And whether or not there is some "ultimate
            meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single philosopher in
            thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated that there is] it
            certainly does not make the food you eat less delicious or the art
            you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel less exhilarating
            or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you always know that,
            however unbearable the pain can become, it can't last forever, eh?
            Death is always an option when things get too bad.

            The best way to endure that which impales us in the course of living
            our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as deeply as we can
            in distractions: music, sports, careers, art, family etc. Find
            something you can be passionaite about and embrace it. You'll find
            you have much less time to think about how "meaningless" and "futile"
            everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only thing you have to
            worry about is getting caught, right?

            Biggie




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ianvmulder
            Biggie, I find the case you have made to be an excellent starting-point, which could come at the beginning of a modern-day Socratic dialogue. You may be
            Message 5 of 26 , May 25, 2002
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              Biggie,

              I find the case you have made to be an excellent starting-point,
              which could come at the beginning of a modern-day Socratic dialogue.
              You may be playing Devil's advocate, or you may be honestly stating a
              deeply-felt position. But in either event, you have set out a
              challenge for philosophy to answer.

              Firstly, I'd say that though Philosophy is taught as a subject in
              universities, that doesn't mean that it exists as a generalised
              resource, like a water supply, which may exhilarate some and depress
              others. There can only be individual philosophies, and there's a big
              divide between "my philosophy", which is the only one I need, and
              that of others. We each have our own, and it constantly changes and
              develops day by day. You have summarised yours!

              We share our philosophies with others for various reasons and our
              Western tradition since the Greeks is to discuss and dispute, so as
              to learn and refine them. It was otherwise in Indian and Chinese
              civilisations, where philosophy was embedded in sacred doctrines
              passed down to successive generations rather like the sacred books
              of Judaism, Christianity & Islam.

              We delight in the philosophies of those we admire, the ones we decide
              to call "great", and if they seem to be bad for our health, then we
              should sensibly stop as soon as we realise it: just as if we discover
              we have a nut allergy, we should stop eating certain foods.

              When you describe your own philosophy, as you have just done, some
              may want to use arguments to disprove to you the validity of your
              ideas. But I see your philosophy as a description of you at this time
              and subject to change as a result of the events in your life!

              It was prophesied that the Buddha would be either a great king or a
              great saint and teacher. His parents wanted him to be just a king so
              they enclosed him in a palace and grounds where every pleasure and
              distraction were provided. Then one day he wanted to see the rest of
              the kingdom and walked outside, where he was confronted with examples
              of old age, disease and death – things whose reality had till then
              been concealed from him. In each case he asked his companions "Could
              this also happen to me?" And when they replied "Yes", it made him
              feel that he could not enjoy his distractions any more. It changed
              his philosophy with such urgency that he thereupon devoted his life
              to seeking enlightenment, or discovering a way to escape human
              suffering, not just for himself but for anyone.

              I quote this not as a Buddhist (I'm not one!) but as an example of
              how we at all stages in our adult life adjust our personal
              philosophy. It's a great freedom that we have, those of us who are
              not compelled by hardship to concentrate on physical survival.

              I don't know why we look for meaning, but we do. Some – eg Captain
              Jack alias Eduard Alf – may find it helpful to explain everything in
              terms of neuron activity. For me a philosophy doesn't have to explain
              everything. I'm perfectly content to live in the midst of mystery and
              wonder, or even to accept the possibility that world peace (as
              imperfect as it is) is maintained only by grace of the prayers and
              intercessions of Catholic nuns in enclosed orders. But still, I'll
              try and find meaning in my own life, otherwise it would seem rather
              chaotic. When I make sense of it, then the possibility exists that I
              will find joy and fulfilment in it.

              But Biggie, I agree with you in this. I won't ever let philosophy, in
              the sense of other people's words and explanations, override my own
              perceptions of reality!

              Ian


              --- In existlist@y..., "iambiguously" <iambiguously@y...> wrote:
              > From time to time I bump into folks who actually let philosophy
              > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't there and
              > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering that is. They don't
              > find it and so "despair".
              >
              > What a waste of time.
              >
              > Life is about living. And whether or not there is some "ultimate
              > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single philosopher in
              > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated that there is] it
              > certainly does not make the food you eat less delicious or the art
              > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel less
              exhilarating
              > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you always know that,
              > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't last forever, eh?
              > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
              >
              > The best way to endure that which impales us in the course of
              living
              > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as deeply as we can
              > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art, family etc. Find
              > something you can be passionaite about and embrace it. You'll find
              > you have much less time to think about how "meaningless"
              and "futile"
              > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only thing you have to
              > worry about is getting caught, right?
              >
              > Biggie
            • Eduard Alf
              Ian, The focus of NOOism upon the neurons is simply a method by which to develop a philosophy. It is not a full philosophy in itself. The problem which I
              Message 6 of 26 , May 25, 2002
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                Ian,

                The focus of NOOism upon the neurons is simply a "method" by which to
                develop a philosophy. It is not a full philosophy in itself.

                The problem which I saw in a lot of discussion on philosophy and religion,
                was a lack of ... dare I say, "reality" ... in various perceptions. For
                example, it is often said that we "see" things, as if somehow we are about
                to bring an actual object into our brains through our eyes. But that does
                not happen. The brain only receive signals for the retina and we still have
                to interpret these signals. Depending upon our "learning", the object could
                be "seen" as anything other than what it really is. That is why there are
                such things as illusions.

                The same sort of thing occurs with respect to religion. We speak of souls
                that can leave the body and go onto heaven, some other world or another
                dimension. But in reality, nothing leaves the body. It is just that the
                neurons, in the sealed cavity of the skull, invent some other world to which
                in a dream state they can go to. Much as we "invent" a new world in the
                confines of a dark theatre. We sit in the theatre seat and allow ourselves
                to be carried off to whatever is shown on the screen. We do not actually
                leave the theatre and become a member of a pirate ship or walk on a distant
                planet.

                Without the device of "neurons" we tend to think of our fantasies as
                reality. In NOOism I wanted to show that fantasies are actually fantasies.
                What fantasies you wish to believe in is still something that you yourself
                have to decide upon.

                captain jack
                -----Original Message-----
                From: ianvmulder [mailto:ian@...]
                Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 6:11 AM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] Re: death and philosophy


                Biggie,

                I find the case you have made to be an excellent starting-point,
                which could come at the beginning of a modern-day Socratic dialogue.
                You may be playing Devil's advocate, or you may be honestly stating a
                deeply-felt position. But in either event, you have set out a
                challenge for philosophy to answer.

                Firstly, I'd say that though Philosophy is taught as a subject in
                universities, that doesn't mean that it exists as a generalised
                resource, like a water supply, which may exhilarate some and depress
                others. There can only be individual philosophies, and there's a big
                divide between "my philosophy", which is the only one I need, and
                that of others. We each have our own, and it constantly changes and
                develops day by day. You have summarised yours!

                We share our philosophies with others for various reasons and our
                Western tradition since the Greeks is to discuss and dispute, so as
                to learn and refine them. It was otherwise in Indian and Chinese
                civilisations, where philosophy was embedded in sacred doctrines
                passed down to successive generations rather like the sacred books
                of Judaism, Christianity & Islam.

                We delight in the philosophies of those we admire, the ones we decide
                to call "great", and if they seem to be bad for our health, then we
                should sensibly stop as soon as we realise it: just as if we discover
                we have a nut allergy, we should stop eating certain foods.

                When you describe your own philosophy, as you have just done, some
                may want to use arguments to disprove to you the validity of your
                ideas. But I see your philosophy as a description of you at this time
                and subject to change as a result of the events in your life!

                It was prophesied that the Buddha would be either a great king or a
                great saint and teacher. His parents wanted him to be just a king so
                they enclosed him in a palace and grounds where every pleasure and
                distraction were provided. Then one day he wanted to see the rest of
                the kingdom and walked outside, where he was confronted with examples
                of old age, disease and death – things whose reality had till then
                been concealed from him. In each case he asked his companions "Could
                this also happen to me?" And when they replied "Yes", it made him
                feel that he could not enjoy his distractions any more. It changed
                his philosophy with such urgency that he thereupon devoted his life
                to seeking enlightenment, or discovering a way to escape human
                suffering, not just for himself but for anyone.

                I quote this not as a Buddhist (I'm not one!) but as an example of
                how we at all stages in our adult life adjust our personal
                philosophy. It's a great freedom that we have, those of us who are
                not compelled by hardship to concentrate on physical survival.

                I don't know why we look for meaning, but we do. Some – eg Captain
                Jack alias Eduard Alf – may find it helpful to explain everything in
                terms of neuron activity. For me a philosophy doesn't have to explain
                everything. I'm perfectly content to live in the midst of mystery and
                wonder, or even to accept the possibility that world peace (as
                imperfect as it is) is maintained only by grace of the prayers and
                intercessions of Catholic nuns in enclosed orders. But still, I'll
                try and find meaning in my own life, otherwise it would seem rather
                chaotic. When I make sense of it, then the possibility exists that I
                will find joy and fulfilment in it.

                But Biggie, I agree with you in this. I won't ever let philosophy, in
                the sense of other people's words and explanations, override my own
                perceptions of reality!

                Ian


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • ianvmulder
                Captain Jack, I find that what you describe as your method takes me further from reality not closer to it. I don t KNOW that nothing leaves the body when we
                Message 7 of 26 , May 25, 2002
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                  Captain Jack,

                  I find that what you describe as your method takes me further from
                  reality not closer to it. I don't KNOW that "nothing leaves the body"
                  when we die, though you assert this is the case. I don't know
                  anything about neuron activity in the brain. Maybe because I am
                  ignorant of that science. But I do know my own experience. I don't
                  know if it is my fantasy or not. But I do know it. Right now I feel a
                  little hungry. Is this a fantasy? How would I know if it's "real"
                  hunger or "fake" hunger? (It might be an issue if I were conscious of
                  a weight or other dietary problem.)

                  The ordinary way of seeing things works fine for me. Science does not
                  change any perception that I have, does not challenge any perception
                  that I have. It has nothing to do with my experience! However, it's
                  true that my beliefs and understanding will afffect my experience.
                  Generally I have major scepticism about science's findings. This
                  could be an issue perhaps if I were a smoker of cigarettes and was
                  trying to deny scientific claims that tobacco will harm my health.
                  But I don't smoke, and don't care therefore if scientists are right
                  or not in that regard.

                  I accept anything which comes to me as a form of reality, whether it
                  be a thought, a belief, a fleeting feeling, emotion, a pain, a
                  pleasure, a fantasy or whatever. All of this is my experience and
                  when these things happen to someone else I respect that this is their
                  experience too. And that we are each entitled to interpret that
                  experience as we wish. It may be beneficial to interpret differently,
                  but that is for us to learn by trial and error!

                  Ian


                  --- In existlist@y..., "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                  > Ian,
                  >
                  > The focus of NOOism upon the neurons is simply a "method" by which
                  to
                  > develop a philosophy. It is not a full philosophy in itself.
                  >
                  > The problem which I saw in a lot of discussion on philosophy and
                  religion,
                  > was a lack of ... dare I say, "reality" ... in various
                  perceptions. For
                  > example, it is often said that we "see" things, as if somehow we
                  are about
                  > to bring an actual object into our brains through our eyes. But
                  that does
                  > not happen. The brain only receive signals for the retina and we
                  still have
                  > to interpret these signals. Depending upon our "learning", the
                  object could
                  > be "seen" as anything other than what it really is. That is why
                  there are
                  > such things as illusions.
                  >
                  > The same sort of thing occurs with respect to religion. We speak
                  of souls
                  > that can leave the body and go onto heaven, some other world or
                  another
                  > dimension. But in reality, nothing leaves the body. It is just
                  that the
                  > neurons, in the sealed cavity of the skull, invent some other world
                  to which
                  > in a dream state they can go to. Much as we "invent" a new world
                  in the
                  > confines of a dark theatre. We sit in the theatre seat and allow
                  ourselves
                  > to be carried off to whatever is shown on the screen. We do not
                  actually
                  > leave the theatre and become a member of a pirate ship or walk on a
                  distant
                  > planet.
                  >
                  > Without the device of "neurons" we tend to think of our fantasies as
                  > reality. In NOOism I wanted to show that fantasies are actually
                  fantasies.
                  > What fantasies you wish to believe in is still something that you
                  yourself
                  > have to decide upon.
                • Eduard Alf
                  Ian, What I am describing is the method by which your brain works. There is nothing that leaves the body when we die. Attempts have been at disproving this by
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 25, 2002
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                    Ian,

                    What I am describing is the method by which your brain works.

                    There is nothing that leaves the body when we die. Attempts have been at
                    disproving this by weighing a body before and after death, but the weight is
                    the same. So in order to overcome this difficulty, it has been proposed
                    that the soul has no weight. I suppose that is a clever way of dealing with
                    the difficulty, but in the end it is just a fantasy.

                    What is your experience? Does it actually provide you with an exact
                    knowledge of reality? If you have three glasses of water, hot, tepid and
                    cold. Then if you put your hand in the cold water, and subsequently into
                    the tepid, it will feel hot. If you start with the hot water then the tepid
                    will feel cold. So your body can be fooled as to what is the reality.

                    Is there "real" or "fake" hunger? I depends. It could very well be fake.
                    MacDonalds and others depend upon this. They advertise in a manner to
                    convince you that you should eat something regardless of where you need to
                    or not. All that the brain does is interpret signals from our senses. The
                    interpretation is not just a simple yes/no. Other factors are added into
                    the interpretation, such as the emotional content of the image that you are
                    happy when you eat. So although your stomach is signaling that it still
                    working on a previous meal, your brain may ignore this signal or offset it
                    with the emotional factor. Like dogs, people can eat themselves to death.

                    It is not a case of what science may say. You are limited by both your
                    senses and by the interpretations that may be made by your brain. The
                    "ordinary" way of seeing things often leads to mistakes. We see something
                    and them make an assumption which may or may not be correct. The practice
                    of magic is largely based on the principle that the eye can be fooled.

                    What we receive from the outside world may be of the reality, but our
                    interpretation may not replicate that reality.

                    There is special edition of American Scientific, on the brain, this month
                    ... something you may wish to pick up at the store.

                    captain jack

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: ianvmulder [mailto:ian@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 7:42 AM
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: death and philosophy


                    Captain Jack,

                    I find that what you describe as your method takes me further from
                    reality not closer to it. I don't KNOW that "nothing leaves the body"
                    when we die, though you assert this is the case. I don't know
                    anything about neuron activity in the brain. Maybe because I am
                    ignorant of that science. But I do know my own experience. I don't
                    know if it is my fantasy or not. But I do know it. Right now I feel a
                    little hungry. Is this a fantasy? How would I know if it's "real"
                    hunger or "fake" hunger? (It might be an issue if I were conscious of
                    a weight or other dietary problem.)

                    The ordinary way of seeing things works fine for me. Science does not
                    change any perception that I have, does not challenge any perception
                    that I have. It has nothing to do with my experience! However, it's
                    true that my beliefs and understanding will afffect my experience.
                    Generally I have major scepticism about science's findings. This
                    could be an issue perhaps if I were a smoker of cigarettes and was
                    trying to deny scientific claims that tobacco will harm my health.
                    But I don't smoke, and don't care therefore if scientists are right
                    or not in that regard.

                    I accept anything which comes to me as a form of reality, whether it
                    be a thought, a belief, a fleeting feeling, emotion, a pain, a
                    pleasure, a fantasy or whatever. All of this is my experience and
                    when these things happen to someone else I respect that this is their
                    experience too. And that we are each entitled to interpret that
                    experience as we wish. It may be beneficial to interpret differently,
                    but that is for us to learn by trial and error!

                    Ian


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bill Harris
                    Biggie, thats the goddamned truth. Bill ... From: iambiguously To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 4:04 PM Subject: [existlist] death and
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 28, 2002
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                      Biggie, thats the goddamned truth. Bill
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: iambiguously
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 4:04 PM
                      Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy


                      From time to time I bump into folks who actually let philosophy
                      depress them. They look for meaning that isn't there and
                      rationalizations for all the pain and suffering that is. They don't
                      find it and so "despair".

                      What a waste of time.

                      Life is about living. And whether or not there is some "ultimate
                      meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single philosopher in
                      thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated that there is] it
                      certainly does not make the food you eat less delicious or the art
                      you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel less exhilarating
                      or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you always know that,
                      however unbearable the pain can become, it can't last forever, eh?
                      Death is always an option when things get too bad.

                      The best way to endure that which impales us in the course of living
                      our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as deeply as we can
                      in distractions: music, sports, careers, art, family etc. Find
                      something you can be passionaite about and embrace it. You'll find
                      you have much less time to think about how "meaningless" and "futile"
                      everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only thing you have to
                      worry about is getting caught, right?

                      Biggie




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                      ADVERTISEMENT




                      Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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                      TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                      existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • George Walton
                      Charles, I love philosophy. I doubt if you will find many more addicted to the question Why? . Someone, however, once said this: always encourage others to
                      Message 10 of 26 , May 28, 2002
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                        Charles,

                        I love philosophy. I doubt if you will find many more
                        addicted to the question "Why?".

                        Someone, however, once said this: always encourage
                        others to seek the truth; but, even more so, always
                        discourage those who say they have found it.

                        What I do, then, is to extend that sentiment to those
                        who have not found it, as well...those who let this
                        bother them to the point they become glum, distressed
                        and/or even despairing.

                        And, as I am wont to point out when others point out
                        Socrates infamous comment about the unexamined life
                        not being worth living, there is Saul Bellow's
                        rebuttal, of sorts: while the unexamined life may not
                        be worth living, the examined one can be sheer hell.

                        So, if human existence is essentially meaningless and
                        absurd [and I believe it is], the chances that this
                        hell will be propelled [and then sustained]
                        philosophically decreases considerably. Hell is about
                        circumstances for the most part. When they go South,
                        the last thing you need is a miserable philosophy of
                        life demoralizing you all the more.

                        My [mostly faceteous] comment about not getting caught
                        revolves around my belief that, in the absense of God,
                        our behavioral options increase significantly. With
                        God, "bad" behaviors are construed as Sins. He sees
                        all so there is never any question of not getting
                        caught, eh? And the punishment [up to and including
                        eternity in Hell] is a lot more excruciating than what
                        happens to you if the law catches you [maybe some jail
                        time or community service]. Not that I am advocating
                        criminal behavior, of course; it's just that laws are
                        construed differently by different people in different
                        circumstances. And, without the Almighty up there
                        following your every move, escape possibilities
                        increase dramatically.

                        Biggie




                        --- Charles <cvas2002@...> wrote:
                        > Biggie,
                        >
                        > I don't quite understand the meaning of your last
                        > remark: "since god is
                        > dead, the only thing you have to
                        > worry about is getting caught". It seems to me that
                        > you are to the point of
                        > dismissing philosophy as an
                        > unimportant and useless practice or taken on
                        > Pascal's wager here.
                        >
                        > You are right in saying that no philosopher ever has
                        > discovered an "ultimate
                        > meaning" out there
                        > somewhere. But in my opinion that's the beauty of
                        > philosophy; besides, I
                        > will agree with Socrates
                        > in saying that " a life without examining is not
                        > worth living". If you enjoy
                        > or prefer physical to
                        > intellectual pleasures, that's another matter.
                        >
                        > Charles
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "iambiguously" <iambiguously@...>
                        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                        > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                        >
                        >
                        > > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                        > let philosophy
                        > > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                        > there and
                        > > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                        > that is. They don't
                        > > find it and so "despair".
                        > >
                        > > What a waste of time.
                        > >
                        > > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                        > some "ultimate
                        > > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                        > philosopher in
                        > > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                        > that there is] it
                        > > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                        > delicious or the art
                        > > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                        > less exhilarating
                        > > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                        > always know that,
                        > > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                        > last forever, eh?
                        > > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                        > >
                        > > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                        > the course of living
                        > > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                        > deeply as we can
                        > > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                        > family etc. Find
                        > > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                        > it. You'll find
                        > > you have much less time to think about how
                        > "meaningless" and "futile"
                        > > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                        > thing you have to
                        > > worry about is getting caught, right?
                        > >
                        > > Biggie
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                        > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                        > >
                        > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                        > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • Bill Harris
                        George, We havn`t had any good bait for you lately. When Dith holds forth[ or fifth] with her manifesto, you should be knee deep in manufactured verbiage.
                        Message 11 of 26 , May 28, 2002
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                          George, We havn`t had any good bait for you lately. When Dith holds forth[ or fifth] with her manifesto, you should be knee deep in manufactured verbiage. Plunder will be inevitable. I can hardly wait to watch from behind my splatter screen. Bill
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: George Walton
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:02 AM
                          Subject: RE: [existlist] death and philosophy


                          Eduard,

                          By distractions, I mean any and all
                          renditions---provided folks are willing to accept the
                          consequences of the pursuit. Some being more
                          challenging or dangerous or precarious than others.

                          On the other hand, if someone comes into a philosophy
                          venue and reeks of, say, the Christian God, they will
                          find themselves butting heads with one of my own
                          beloved distractions: deconstructing [mostly into
                          oblivion] any and all idealism of the
                          religous/philosophical sort. Few things relax me more
                          than pulling the intellectual rug out from under those
                          who claim to have discovered The One And Only Really,
                          Really, TRUE Truth.

                          Cruel to be kind is how I tend to look at it. Not many
                          things are more satisfying, after all, than rescuing
                          minds from cinder block thoughts like Right and Wrong,
                          Good and Bad. And, unlike most depromgramers out
                          there, I don't charge a dime.

                          Biggie




                          --- Eduard Alf <yeoman@...> wrote:
                          > Biggie,
                          >
                          > If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply as we
                          > can in distractions,
                          > would not a devotion to god fall in this category?
                          > Or for that matter a
                          > devotion to philosophy. You sound like a NOOist ...
                          > :-))
                          >
                          > captain jack
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: iambiguously [mailto:iambiguously@...]
                          > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                          >
                          >
                          > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                          > let philosophy
                          > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                          > there and
                          > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                          > that is. They don't
                          > find it and so "despair".
                          >
                          > What a waste of time.
                          >
                          > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                          > some "ultimate
                          > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                          > philosopher in
                          > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                          > that there is] it
                          > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                          > delicious or the art
                          > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                          > less exhilarating
                          > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                          > always know that,
                          > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                          > last forever, eh?
                          > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                          >
                          > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                          > the course of living
                          > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                          > deeply as we can
                          > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                          > family etc. Find
                          > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                          > it. You'll find
                          > you have much less time to think about how
                          > "meaningless" and "futile"
                          > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                          > thing you have to
                          > worry about is getting caught, right?
                          >
                          > Biggie
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >


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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • George Walton
                          Eduard, By distractions, I mean any and all renditions---provided folks are willing to accept the consequences of the pursuit. Some being more challenging or
                          Message 12 of 26 , May 28, 2002
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                            Eduard,

                            By distractions, I mean any and all
                            renditions---provided folks are willing to accept the
                            consequences of the pursuit. Some being more
                            challenging or dangerous or precarious than others.

                            On the other hand, if someone comes into a philosophy
                            venue and reeks of, say, the Christian God, they will
                            find themselves butting heads with one of my own
                            beloved distractions: deconstructing [mostly into
                            oblivion] any and all idealism of the
                            religous/philosophical sort. Few things relax me more
                            than pulling the intellectual rug out from under those
                            who claim to have discovered The One And Only Really,
                            Really, TRUE Truth.

                            Cruel to be kind is how I tend to look at it. Not many
                            things are more satisfying, after all, than rescuing
                            minds from cinder block thoughts like Right and Wrong,
                            Good and Bad. And, unlike most depromgramers out
                            there, I don't charge a dime.

                            Biggie




                            --- Eduard Alf <yeoman@...> wrote:
                            > Biggie,
                            >
                            > If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply as we
                            > can in distractions,
                            > would not a devotion to god fall in this category?
                            > Or for that matter a
                            > devotion to philosophy. You sound like a NOOist ...
                            > :-))
                            >
                            > captain jack
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: iambiguously [mailto:iambiguously@...]
                            > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                            >
                            >
                            > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                            > let philosophy
                            > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                            > there and
                            > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                            > that is. They don't
                            > find it and so "despair".
                            >
                            > What a waste of time.
                            >
                            > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                            > some "ultimate
                            > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                            > philosopher in
                            > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                            > that there is] it
                            > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                            > delicious or the art
                            > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                            > less exhilarating
                            > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                            > always know that,
                            > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                            > last forever, eh?
                            > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                            >
                            > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                            > the course of living
                            > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                            > deeply as we can
                            > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                            > family etc. Find
                            > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                            > it. You'll find
                            > you have much less time to think about how
                            > "meaningless" and "futile"
                            > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                            > thing you have to
                            > worry about is getting caught, right?
                            >
                            > Biggie
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > ADVERTISEMENT
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                            >
                            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                            > Terms of Service.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >


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                          • Bill Harris
                            Biggie, Your list of ism`s is truly impressive, it gives you a broad, if painful base. You have studied religions, social systems, economic systems,
                            Message 13 of 26 , May 28, 2002
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                              Biggie, Your list of "ism`s" is truly impressive, it gives you a broad, if
                              painful base. You have studied religions, social systems, economic
                              systems, political philosophies and now a pure philosophy. Were you always
                              cynical or did your negative experiences with other systems cause your
                              distrust? Bill
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "George Walton" <iambiguously@...>
                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 4:04 PM
                              Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: death and philosophy


                              > mulder,
                              >
                              > It is, of course, essentially meaningless to try to
                              > differentiate "my" philosophy from others. That would
                              > be like trying to say this is where "I" begin and my
                              > historical era and my culture and my family and my
                              > community and my early children experiences and all of
                              > the multitudinous relationships I have had with others
                              > [through personal contact or through books] ends. "I",
                              > to me, is merely an existential contraption hopelessly
                              > embedded in contingencies we can never unravel. We can
                              > not even really come close. That is why, for example,
                              > Bill Gate's children will almost certainly come to
                              > grasp "reality" [as adults] far, far differently than,
                              > say, the offspring of Osama bin Laden. They may all
                              > come to embrace "my philosophy" one day but what can
                              > that really mean given the convoluted relationship
                              > between "what I know" and "how I come to know what I
                              > know"? Epistemology, in my view, is the foundation
                              > upon which the "self" rests. In other words, what is
                              > most crucial is the relationship between the content
                              > of our opinions and the existential context out of
                              > which they evolved in our makeshift trajectory from
                              > the cradle to the grave.
                              >
                              > Thus you are quite correct in assuming that, in the
                              > future, "my philosophy" may change yet again. After
                              > all, at one time or another in my life I professed to
                              > be a Christian, a Marxist, an Objectivist, a
                              > Socialist, a Libertarian. Now I profess to be a
                              > nihilist [small n]. Nihilism, however, does not
                              > exclude nihilism from its own point of view. On the
                              > other hand, I have been a nihilist now for nearly 20
                              > years.
                              >
                              > Who was it who said, "few things are more
                              > disconcertining than to embrace a philosophy you can't
                              > talk yourself out of". With nihilism, I often wonder:
                              > is this good or bad?
                              >
                              > The irony, in any event, is that, through nihilism, I
                              > have come to distance my "self" from the psychological
                              > travail that can accompany a philosophy [like
                              > Existentialism] devoid of Meaning and Truth.
                              >
                              > Biggie
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- ianvmulder <ian@...> wrote:
                              > > Biggie,
                              > >
                              > > I find the case you have made to be an excellent
                              > > starting-point,
                              > > which could come at the beginning of a modern-day
                              > > Socratic dialogue.
                              > > You may be playing Devil's advocate, or you may be
                              > > honestly stating a
                              > > deeply-felt position. But in either event, you have
                              > > set out a
                              > > challenge for philosophy to answer.
                              > >
                              > > Firstly, I'd say that though Philosophy is taught as
                              > > a subject in
                              > > universities, that doesn't mean that it exists as a
                              > > generalised
                              > > resource, like a water supply, which may exhilarate
                              > > some and depress
                              > > others. There can only be individual philosophies,
                              > > and there's a big
                              > > divide between "my philosophy", which is the only
                              > > one I need, and
                              > > that of others. We each have our own, and it
                              > > constantly changes and
                              > > develops day by day. You have summarised yours!
                              > >
                              > > We share our philosophies with others for various
                              > > reasons and our
                              > > Western tradition since the Greeks is to discuss and
                              > > dispute, so as
                              > > to learn and refine them. It was otherwise in Indian
                              > > and Chinese
                              > > civilisations, where philosophy was embedded in
                              > > sacred doctrines
                              > > passed down to successive generations rather like
                              > > the sacred books
                              > > of Judaism, Christianity & Islam.
                              > >
                              > > We delight in the philosophies of those we admire,
                              > > the ones we decide
                              > > to call "great", and if they seem to be bad for our
                              > > health, then we
                              > > should sensibly stop as soon as we realise it: just
                              > > as if we discover
                              > > we have a nut allergy, we should stop eating certain
                              > > foods.
                              > >
                              > > When you describe your own philosophy, as you have
                              > > just done, some
                              > > may want to use arguments to disprove to you the
                              > > validity of your
                              > > ideas. But I see your philosophy as a description of
                              > > you at this time
                              > > and subject to change as a result of the events in
                              > > your life!
                              > >
                              > > It was prophesied that the Buddha would be either a
                              > > great king or a
                              > > great saint and teacher. His parents wanted him to
                              > > be just a king so
                              > > they enclosed him in a palace and grounds where
                              > > every pleasure and
                              > > distraction were provided. Then one day he wanted to
                              > > see the rest of
                              > > the kingdom and walked outside, where he was
                              > > confronted with examples
                              > > of old age, disease and death - things whose reality
                              > > had till then
                              > > been concealed from him. In each case he asked his
                              > > companions "Could
                              > > this also happen to me?" And when they replied
                              > > "Yes", it made him
                              > > feel that he could not enjoy his distractions any
                              > > more. It changed
                              > > his philosophy with such urgency that he thereupon
                              > > devoted his life
                              > > to seeking enlightenment, or discovering a way to
                              > > escape human
                              > > suffering, not just for himself but for anyone.
                              > >
                              > > I quote this not as a Buddhist (I'm not one!) but as
                              > > an example of
                              > > how we at all stages in our adult life adjust our
                              > > personal
                              > > philosophy. It's a great freedom that we have, those
                              > > of us who are
                              > > not compelled by hardship to concentrate on physical
                              > > survival.
                              > >
                              > > I don't know why we look for meaning, but we do.
                              > > Some - eg Captain
                              > > Jack alias Eduard Alf - may find it helpful to
                              > > explain everything in
                              > > terms of neuron activity. For me a philosophy
                              > > doesn't have to explain
                              > > everything. I'm perfectly content to live in the
                              > > midst of mystery and
                              > > wonder, or even to accept the possibility that world
                              > > peace (as
                              > > imperfect as it is) is maintained only by grace of
                              > > the prayers and
                              > > intercessions of Catholic nuns in enclosed orders.
                              > > But still, I'll
                              > > try and find meaning in my own life, otherwise it
                              > > would seem rather
                              > > chaotic. When I make sense of it, then the
                              > > possibility exists that I
                              > > will find joy and fulfilment in it.
                              > >
                              > > But Biggie, I agree with you in this. I won't ever
                              > > let philosophy, in
                              > > the sense of other people's words and explanations,
                              > > override my own
                              > > perceptions of reality!
                              > >
                              > > Ian
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In existlist@y..., "iambiguously"
                              > > <iambiguously@y...> wrote:
                              > > > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                              > > let philosophy
                              > > > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                              > > there and
                              > > > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                              > > that is. They don't
                              > > > find it and so "despair".
                              > > >
                              > > > What a waste of time.
                              > > >
                              > > > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                              > > some "ultimate
                              > > > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                              > > philosopher in
                              > > > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                              > > that there is] it
                              > > > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                              > > delicious or the art
                              > > > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                              > > less
                              > > exhilarating
                              > > > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                              > > always know that,
                              > > > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                              > > last forever, eh?
                              > > > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                              > > >
                              > > > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                              > > the course of
                              > > living
                              > > > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                              > > deeply as we can
                              > > > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                              > > family etc. Find
                              > > > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                              > > it. You'll find
                              > > > you have much less time to think about how
                              > > "meaningless"
                              > > and "futile"
                              > > > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                              > > thing you have to
                              > > > worry about is getting caught, right?
                              > > >
                              > > > Biggie
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                            • George Walton
                              mulder, It is, of course, essentially meaningless to try to differentiate my philosophy from others. That would be like trying to say this is where I begin
                              Message 14 of 26 , May 28, 2002
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                                mulder,

                                It is, of course, essentially meaningless to try to
                                differentiate "my" philosophy from others. That would
                                be like trying to say this is where "I" begin and my
                                historical era and my culture and my family and my
                                community and my early children experiences and all of
                                the multitudinous relationships I have had with others
                                [through personal contact or through books] ends. "I",
                                to me, is merely an existential contraption hopelessly
                                embedded in contingencies we can never unravel. We can
                                not even really come close. That is why, for example,
                                Bill Gate's children will almost certainly come to
                                grasp "reality" [as adults] far, far differently than,
                                say, the offspring of Osama bin Laden. They may all
                                come to embrace "my philosophy" one day but what can
                                that really mean given the convoluted relationship
                                between "what I know" and "how I come to know what I
                                know"? Epistemology, in my view, is the foundation
                                upon which the "self" rests. In other words, what is
                                most crucial is the relationship between the content
                                of our opinions and the existential context out of
                                which they evolved in our makeshift trajectory from
                                the cradle to the grave.

                                Thus you are quite correct in assuming that, in the
                                future, "my philosophy" may change yet again. After
                                all, at one time or another in my life I professed to
                                be a Christian, a Marxist, an Objectivist, a
                                Socialist, a Libertarian. Now I profess to be a
                                nihilist [small n]. Nihilism, however, does not
                                exclude nihilism from its own point of view. On the
                                other hand, I have been a nihilist now for nearly 20
                                years.

                                Who was it who said, "few things are more
                                disconcertining than to embrace a philosophy you can't
                                talk yourself out of". With nihilism, I often wonder:
                                is this good or bad?

                                The irony, in any event, is that, through nihilism, I
                                have come to distance my "self" from the psychological
                                travail that can accompany a philosophy [like
                                Existentialism] devoid of Meaning and Truth.

                                Biggie











                                --- ianvmulder <ian@...> wrote:
                                > Biggie,
                                >
                                > I find the case you have made to be an excellent
                                > starting-point,
                                > which could come at the beginning of a modern-day
                                > Socratic dialogue.
                                > You may be playing Devil's advocate, or you may be
                                > honestly stating a
                                > deeply-felt position. But in either event, you have
                                > set out a
                                > challenge for philosophy to answer.
                                >
                                > Firstly, I'd say that though Philosophy is taught as
                                > a subject in
                                > universities, that doesn't mean that it exists as a
                                > generalised
                                > resource, like a water supply, which may exhilarate
                                > some and depress
                                > others. There can only be individual philosophies,
                                > and there's a big
                                > divide between "my philosophy", which is the only
                                > one I need, and
                                > that of others. We each have our own, and it
                                > constantly changes and
                                > develops day by day. You have summarised yours!
                                >
                                > We share our philosophies with others for various
                                > reasons and our
                                > Western tradition since the Greeks is to discuss and
                                > dispute, so as
                                > to learn and refine them. It was otherwise in Indian
                                > and Chinese
                                > civilisations, where philosophy was embedded in
                                > sacred doctrines
                                > passed down to successive generations rather like
                                > the sacred books
                                > of Judaism, Christianity & Islam.
                                >
                                > We delight in the philosophies of those we admire,
                                > the ones we decide
                                > to call "great", and if they seem to be bad for our
                                > health, then we
                                > should sensibly stop as soon as we realise it: just
                                > as if we discover
                                > we have a nut allergy, we should stop eating certain
                                > foods.
                                >
                                > When you describe your own philosophy, as you have
                                > just done, some
                                > may want to use arguments to disprove to you the
                                > validity of your
                                > ideas. But I see your philosophy as a description of
                                > you at this time
                                > and subject to change as a result of the events in
                                > your life!
                                >
                                > It was prophesied that the Buddha would be either a
                                > great king or a
                                > great saint and teacher. His parents wanted him to
                                > be just a king so
                                > they enclosed him in a palace and grounds where
                                > every pleasure and
                                > distraction were provided. Then one day he wanted to
                                > see the rest of
                                > the kingdom and walked outside, where he was
                                > confronted with examples
                                > of old age, disease and death � things whose reality
                                > had till then
                                > been concealed from him. In each case he asked his
                                > companions "Could
                                > this also happen to me?" And when they replied
                                > "Yes", it made him
                                > feel that he could not enjoy his distractions any
                                > more. It changed
                                > his philosophy with such urgency that he thereupon
                                > devoted his life
                                > to seeking enlightenment, or discovering a way to
                                > escape human
                                > suffering, not just for himself but for anyone.
                                >
                                > I quote this not as a Buddhist (I'm not one!) but as
                                > an example of
                                > how we at all stages in our adult life adjust our
                                > personal
                                > philosophy. It's a great freedom that we have, those
                                > of us who are
                                > not compelled by hardship to concentrate on physical
                                > survival.
                                >
                                > I don't know why we look for meaning, but we do.
                                > Some � eg Captain
                                > Jack alias Eduard Alf � may find it helpful to
                                > explain everything in
                                > terms of neuron activity. For me a philosophy
                                > doesn't have to explain
                                > everything. I'm perfectly content to live in the
                                > midst of mystery and
                                > wonder, or even to accept the possibility that world
                                > peace (as
                                > imperfect as it is) is maintained only by grace of
                                > the prayers and
                                > intercessions of Catholic nuns in enclosed orders.
                                > But still, I'll
                                > try and find meaning in my own life, otherwise it
                                > would seem rather
                                > chaotic. When I make sense of it, then the
                                > possibility exists that I
                                > will find joy and fulfilment in it.
                                >
                                > But Biggie, I agree with you in this. I won't ever
                                > let philosophy, in
                                > the sense of other people's words and explanations,
                                > override my own
                                > perceptions of reality!
                                >
                                > Ian
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In existlist@y..., "iambiguously"
                                > <iambiguously@y...> wrote:
                                > > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                                > let philosophy
                                > > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                                > there and
                                > > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                                > that is. They don't
                                > > find it and so "despair".
                                > >
                                > > What a waste of time.
                                > >
                                > > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                                > some "ultimate
                                > > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                                > philosopher in
                                > > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                                > that there is] it
                                > > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                                > delicious or the art
                                > > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                                > less
                                > exhilarating
                                > > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                                > always know that,
                                > > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                                > last forever, eh?
                                > > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                                > >
                                > > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                                > the course of
                                > living
                                > > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                                > deeply as we can
                                > > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                                > family etc. Find
                                > > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                                > it. You'll find
                                > > you have much less time to think about how
                                > "meaningless"
                                > and "futile"
                                > > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                                > thing you have to
                                > > worry about is getting caught, right?
                                > >
                                > > Biggie
                                >
                                >


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                              • Judith Michelle Lee
                                Dear Bill The MEF is well and truly in the pipeline, but a lot of work is required, and I can only do my best to juggle the business of living with my various
                                Message 15 of 26 , May 29, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Bill
                                  The MEF is well and truly in the pipeline, but a lot of work is required, and I can only do my best to juggle the business of living with my various workloads. It's a fantastic livelihood for my neurons.
                                  Meanwhile, your words of encouragement provide every suggestion that you are the sort of person whom would make a great team coach. Such a role would certainly permit you to channel your energies into purposeful activity.
                                  My view is that we are surely backward if the best of the best cannot be made to rise to the top.
                                  jml.




                                  Bill Harris <valleywestdental@...> wrote: George, We havn`t had any good bait for you lately. When Dith holds forth[ or fifth] with her manifesto, you should be knee deep in manufactured verbiage. Plunder will be inevitable. I can hardly wait to watch from behind my splatter screen. Bill
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: George Walton
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:02 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [existlist] death and philosophy


                                  Eduard,

                                  By distractions, I mean any and all
                                  renditions---provided folks are willing to accept the
                                  consequences of the pursuit. Some being more
                                  challenging or dangerous or precarious than others.

                                  On the other hand, if someone comes into a philosophy
                                  venue and reeks of, say, the Christian God, they will
                                  find themselves butting heads with one of my own
                                  beloved distractions: deconstructing [mostly into
                                  oblivion] any and all idealism of the
                                  religous/philosophical sort. Few things relax me more
                                  than pulling the intellectual rug out from under those
                                  who claim to have discovered The One And Only Really,
                                  Really, TRUE Truth.

                                  Cruel to be kind is how I tend to look at it. Not many
                                  things are more satisfying, after all, than rescuing
                                  minds from cinder block thoughts like Right and Wrong,
                                  Good and Bad. And, unlike most depromgramers out
                                  there, I don't charge a dime.

                                  Biggie




                                  --- Eduard Alf <yeoman@...> wrote:
                                  > Biggie,
                                  >
                                  > If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply as we
                                  > can in distractions,
                                  > would not a devotion to god fall in this category?
                                  > Or for that matter a
                                  > devotion to philosophy. You sound like a NOOist ...
                                  > :-))
                                  >
                                  > captain jack
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: iambiguously [mailto:iambiguously@...]
                                  > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                                  > let philosophy
                                  > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                                  > there and
                                  > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                                  > that is. They don't
                                  > find it and so "despair".
                                  >
                                  > What a waste of time.
                                  >
                                  > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                                  > some "ultimate
                                  > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                                  > philosopher in
                                  > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                                  > that there is] it
                                  > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                                  > delicious or the art
                                  > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                                  > less exhilarating
                                  > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                                  > always know that,
                                  > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                                  > last forever, eh?
                                  > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                                  >
                                  > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                                  > the course of living
                                  > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                                  > deeply as we can
                                  > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                                  > family etc. Find
                                  > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                                  > it. You'll find
                                  > you have much less time to think about how
                                  > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                  > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                                  > thing you have to
                                  > worry about is getting caught, right?
                                  >
                                  > Biggie
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
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                                  >
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                  > removed]
                                  >
                                  >


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                                • Bill Harris
                                  Judith, MEF has a prior connotation for me. In my Army days it stood for Medical Examination Facility. I spent six years in the MEF where I was training
                                  Message 16 of 26 , May 29, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Judith, MEF has a prior connotation for me. In my Army days it stood for Medical Examination Facility. I spent six years in the MEF where I was training officer. It is where I developed my tender tone and demeanor. The unit, to a man earned the Expert Field Medical Badge. Thats a big deal for combat medics. You , like myself, have a tendency to coin words. One can get the reputation of being "self styled" by creating words. It helps if you not only define the created term but explain it`s derivation, i.e. from the Latin or Greek ect. Currently I am beginning to use the term "prionconstruct" to mean this universe made of protons and neutrons It is in opposition to the "unterconstruct" which is a theoretical underuniverse of quarks. Unter is from the German, meaning under. A prion is a proton or neutron. Of course one of the great joys of making up new words is to screw up "spellchecker" Bill.
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Judith Michelle Lee
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:09 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] death and philosophy



                                    Dear Bill
                                    The MEF is well and truly in the pipeline, but a lot of work is required, and I can only do my best to juggle the business of living with my various workloads. It's a fantastic livelihood for my neurons.
                                    Meanwhile, your words of encouragement provide every suggestion that you are the sort of person whom would make a great team coach. Such a role would certainly permit you to channel your energies into purposeful activity.
                                    My view is that we are surely backward if the best of the best cannot be made to rise to the top.
                                    jml.




                                    Bill Harris <valleywestdental@...> wrote: George, We havn`t had any good bait for you lately. When Dith holds forth[ or fifth] with her manifesto, you should be knee deep in manufactured verbiage. Plunder will be inevitable. I can hardly wait to watch from behind my splatter screen. Bill
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: George Walton
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:02 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [existlist] death and philosophy


                                    Eduard,

                                    By distractions, I mean any and all
                                    renditions---provided folks are willing to accept the
                                    consequences of the pursuit. Some being more
                                    challenging or dangerous or precarious than others.

                                    On the other hand, if someone comes into a philosophy
                                    venue and reeks of, say, the Christian God, they will
                                    find themselves butting heads with one of my own
                                    beloved distractions: deconstructing [mostly into
                                    oblivion] any and all idealism of the
                                    religous/philosophical sort. Few things relax me more
                                    than pulling the intellectual rug out from under those
                                    who claim to have discovered The One And Only Really,
                                    Really, TRUE Truth.

                                    Cruel to be kind is how I tend to look at it. Not many
                                    things are more satisfying, after all, than rescuing
                                    minds from cinder block thoughts like Right and Wrong,
                                    Good and Bad. And, unlike most depromgramers out
                                    there, I don't charge a dime.

                                    Biggie




                                    --- Eduard Alf <yeoman@...> wrote:
                                    > Biggie,
                                    >
                                    > If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply as we
                                    > can in distractions,
                                    > would not a devotion to god fall in this category?
                                    > Or for that matter a
                                    > devotion to philosophy. You sound like a NOOist ...
                                    > :-))
                                    >
                                    > captain jack
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: iambiguously [mailto:iambiguously@...]
                                    > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                                    > let philosophy
                                    > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                                    > there and
                                    > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                                    > that is. They don't
                                    > find it and so "despair".
                                    >
                                    > What a waste of time.
                                    >
                                    > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                                    > some "ultimate
                                    > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                                    > philosopher in
                                    > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                                    > that there is] it
                                    > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                                    > delicious or the art
                                    > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                                    > less exhilarating
                                    > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                                    > always know that,
                                    > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                                    > last forever, eh?
                                    > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                                    >
                                    > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                                    > the course of living
                                    > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                                    > deeply as we can
                                    > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                                    > family etc. Find
                                    > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                                    > it. You'll find
                                    > you have much less time to think about how
                                    > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                    > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                                    > thing you have to
                                    > worry about is getting caught, right?
                                    >
                                    > Biggie
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                    >
                                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                    > Terms of Service.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    > removed]
                                    >
                                    >


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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Eduard Alf
                                    Bill, Judith, George, I have been having problems with receiving emails. Anyway, in answering George I am wondering if it is right course to deconstruct for
                                    Message 17 of 26 , May 29, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Bill, Judith, George,

                                      I have been having problems with receiving emails.
                                      Anyway, in answering George I am wondering if it
                                      is right course to deconstruct for the sake of
                                      deconstructing. People who have a particular
                                      belief are only exercising their neurons just as
                                      every does in trying to create their reality.

                                      eduard

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Judith Michelle Lee
                                      [mailto:judith_michelle2002@...]
                                      Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 10:10 AM
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] death and philosophy



                                      Dear Bill
                                      The MEF is well and truly in the pipeline, but a
                                      lot of work is required, and I can only do my best
                                      to juggle the business of living with my various
                                      workloads. It's a fantastic livelihood for my
                                      neurons.
                                      Meanwhile, your words of encouragement provide
                                      every suggestion that you are the sort of person
                                      whom would make a great team coach. Such a role
                                      would certainly permit you to channel your
                                      energies into purposeful activity.
                                      My view is that we are surely backward if the best
                                      of the best cannot be made to rise to the top.
                                      jml.




                                      Bill Harris <valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                                      George, We havn`t had any good bait for you
                                      lately. When Dith holds forth[ or fifth] with her
                                      manifesto, you should be knee deep in manufactured
                                      verbiage. Plunder will be inevitable. I can hardly
                                      wait to watch from behind my splatter screen.
                                      Bill
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: George Walton
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:02 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [existlist] death and philosophy


                                      Eduard,

                                      By distractions, I mean any and all
                                      renditions---provided folks are willing to
                                      accept the
                                      consequences of the pursuit. Some being more
                                      challenging or dangerous or precarious than
                                      others.

                                      On the other hand, if someone comes into a
                                      philosophy
                                      venue and reeks of, say, the Christian God, they
                                      will
                                      find themselves butting heads with one of my own
                                      beloved distractions: deconstructing [mostly
                                      into
                                      oblivion] any and all idealism of the
                                      religous/philosophical sort. Few things relax me
                                      more
                                      than pulling the intellectual rug out from under
                                      those
                                      who claim to have discovered The One And Only
                                      Really,
                                      Really, TRUE Truth.

                                      Cruel to be kind is how I tend to look at it.
                                      Not many
                                      things are more satisfying, after all, than
                                      rescuing
                                      minds from cinder block thoughts like Right and
                                      Wrong,
                                      Good and Bad. And, unlike most depromgramers out
                                      there, I don't charge a dime.

                                      Biggie




                                      --- Eduard Alf <yeoman@...> wrote:
                                      > Biggie,
                                      >
                                      > If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply
                                      as we
                                      > can in distractions,
                                      > would not a devotion to god fall in this
                                      category?
                                      > Or for that matter a
                                      > devotion to philosophy. You sound like a
                                      NOOist ...
                                      > :-))
                                      >
                                      > captain jack
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: iambiguously
                                      [mailto:iambiguously@...]
                                      > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From time to time I bump into folks who
                                      actually
                                      > let philosophy
                                      > depress them. They look for meaning that
                                      isn't
                                      > there and
                                      > rationalizations for all the pain and
                                      suffering
                                      > that is. They don't
                                      > find it and so "despair".
                                      >
                                      > What a waste of time.
                                      >
                                      > Life is about living. And whether or not
                                      there is
                                      > some "ultimate
                                      > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a
                                      single
                                      > philosopher in
                                      > thousands and thousands of years has
                                      demonstrated
                                      > that there is] it
                                      > certainly does not make the food you eat
                                      less
                                      > delicious or the art
                                      > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms
                                      you feel
                                      > less exhilarating
                                      > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And
                                      you
                                      > always know that,
                                      > however unbearable the pain can become, it
                                      can't
                                      > last forever, eh?
                                      > Death is always an option when things get
                                      too bad.
                                      >
                                      > The best way to endure that which impales us
                                      in
                                      > the course of living
                                      > our lives from day to day is to embed
                                      ourselves as
                                      > deeply as we can
                                      > in distractions: music, sports, careers,
                                      art,
                                      > family etc. Find
                                      > something you can be passionaite about and
                                      embrace
                                      > it. You'll find
                                      > you have much less time to think about how
                                      > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                      > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the
                                      only
                                      > thing you have to
                                      > worry about is getting caught, right?
                                      >
                                      > Biggie
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                      > ADVERTISEMENT
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Our Home:
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                      > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                      more.)
                                      >
                                      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                      email to:
                                      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                      Yahoo!
                                      > Terms of Service.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                      > removed]
                                      >
                                      >



                                      __________________________________________________
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                                    • George Walton
                                      Bill, I m only attesting to what the Lord would say Himself if he existed. On the other hand, He did assure me over beers at Hooters that, baring a miracle, He
                                      Message 18 of 26 , May 29, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Bill,

                                        I'm only attesting to what the Lord would say Himself
                                        if he existed. On the other hand, He did assure me
                                        over beers at Hooters that, baring a miracle, He
                                        almost certainly does NOT exist. And hey, who am I to
                                        question God, right?

                                        Still, His arguements were, quite simply, Eduardian. I
                                        believe Barbara Sawyers from Sixty Datelines will be
                                        conducting an interview soon:

                                        Ms. Sawyers: "WILL Mr. Christ be able to walk on
                                        water?! Please join us after these 40 odd commercials
                                        from our sponsers and find out!"

                                        Mr. Christ [putting on his Nikes for the cameras]:
                                        "I'm looking forward to it, Babs".

                                        Biggie



                                        --- Bill Harris <valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                                        > George, We havn`t had any good bait for you lately.
                                        > When Dith holds forth[ or fifth] with her manifesto,
                                        > you should be knee deep in manufactured verbiage.
                                        > Plunder will be inevitable. I can hardly wait to
                                        > watch from behind my splatter screen. Bill
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: George Walton
                                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:02 AM
                                        > Subject: RE: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Eduard,
                                        >
                                        > By distractions, I mean any and all
                                        > renditions---provided folks are willing to accept
                                        > the
                                        > consequences of the pursuit. Some being more
                                        > challenging or dangerous or precarious than
                                        > others.
                                        >
                                        > On the other hand, if someone comes into a
                                        > philosophy
                                        > venue and reeks of, say, the Christian God, they
                                        > will
                                        > find themselves butting heads with one of my own
                                        > beloved distractions: deconstructing [mostly into
                                        > oblivion] any and all idealism of the
                                        > religous/philosophical sort. Few things relax me
                                        > more
                                        > than pulling the intellectual rug out from under
                                        > those
                                        > who claim to have discovered The One And Only
                                        > Really,
                                        > Really, TRUE Truth.
                                        >
                                        > Cruel to be kind is how I tend to look at it. Not
                                        > many
                                        > things are more satisfying, after all, than
                                        > rescuing
                                        > minds from cinder block thoughts like Right and
                                        > Wrong,
                                        > Good and Bad. And, unlike most depromgramers out
                                        > there, I don't charge a dime.
                                        >
                                        > Biggie
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- Eduard Alf <yeoman@...> wrote:
                                        > > Biggie,
                                        > >
                                        > > If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply as
                                        > we
                                        > > can in distractions,
                                        > > would not a devotion to god fall in this
                                        > category?
                                        > > Or for that matter a
                                        > > devotion to philosophy. You sound like a NOOist
                                        > ...
                                        > > :-))
                                        > >
                                        > > captain jack
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: iambiguously
                                        > [mailto:iambiguously@...]
                                        > > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > From time to time I bump into folks who
                                        > actually
                                        > > let philosophy
                                        > > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                                        > > there and
                                        > > rationalizations for all the pain and
                                        > suffering
                                        > > that is. They don't
                                        > > find it and so "despair".
                                        > >
                                        > > What a waste of time.
                                        > >
                                        > > Life is about living. And whether or not there
                                        > is
                                        > > some "ultimate
                                        > > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                                        > > philosopher in
                                        > > thousands and thousands of years has
                                        > demonstrated
                                        > > that there is] it
                                        > > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                                        > > delicious or the art
                                        > > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you
                                        > feel
                                        > > less exhilarating
                                        > > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                                        > > always know that,
                                        > > however unbearable the pain can become, it
                                        > can't
                                        > > last forever, eh?
                                        > > Death is always an option when things get too
                                        > bad.
                                        > >
                                        > > The best way to endure that which impales us
                                        > in
                                        > > the course of living
                                        > > our lives from day to day is to embed
                                        > ourselves as
                                        > > deeply as we can
                                        > > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                                        > > family etc. Find
                                        > > something you can be passionaite about and
                                        > embrace
                                        > > it. You'll find
                                        > > you have much less time to think about how
                                        > > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                        > > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the
                                        > only
                                        > > thing you have to
                                        > > worry about is getting caught, right?
                                        > >
                                        > > Biggie
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                        > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Our Home:
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                        > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                        > more.)
                                        > >
                                        > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email
                                        > to:
                                        > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >
                                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                        > Yahoo!
                                        > > Terms of Service.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        > > removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        >
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                                        > removed]
                                        >
                                        >


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                                      • greg goodwin
                                        Biggie, So sorry to have to disagreee but, you see I was enjoying a few brews with the almighty myself, (he actually prefers TGI Friday s) when he pointed at
                                        Message 19 of 26 , May 29, 2002
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Biggie,
                                          So sorry to have to disagreee but, you see I was
                                          enjoying a few brews with the almighty myself, (he
                                          actually prefers TGI Friday's) when he pointed at an
                                          especially well equiped blonde and said "now that's
                                          some of my best work".
                                          I looked at this willowy specimen of tanned, long
                                          legged, tight waisted, full (and some) breasted,
                                          beauty with waving locks flowing nearly to her waist
                                          and had to reply, "the next rounds on me" as I raised
                                          my glass out of sheer repect for anyone that could
                                          create something like that!!
                                          But now that I think back on that occasion, with
                                          slightly clearer mind me thinkith, I wonder, had that
                                          truly been the almighty, the blonde would be here with
                                          me even as I write this, damn!!!!!
                                          I wonder if it's too late to make a request????

                                          GG

                                          --- George Walton <iambiguously@...> wrote:
                                          > Bill,
                                          >
                                          > I'm only attesting to what the Lord would say
                                          > Himself
                                          > if he existed. On the other hand, He did assure me
                                          > over beers at Hooters that, baring a miracle, He
                                          > almost certainly does NOT exist. And hey, who am I
                                          > to
                                          > question God, right?
                                          >
                                          > Still, His arguements were, quite simply, Eduardian.
                                          > I
                                          > believe Barbara Sawyers from Sixty Datelines will be
                                          > conducting an interview soon:
                                          >
                                          > Ms. Sawyers: "WILL Mr. Christ be able to walk on
                                          > water?! Please join us after these 40 odd
                                          > commercials
                                          > from our sponsers and find out!"
                                          >
                                          > Mr. Christ [putting on his Nikes for the cameras]:
                                          > "I'm looking forward to it, Babs".
                                          >
                                          > Biggie
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- Bill Harris <valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                                          > > George, We havn`t had any good bait for you
                                          > lately.
                                          > > When Dith holds forth[ or fifth] with her
                                          > manifesto,
                                          > > you should be knee deep in manufactured verbiage.
                                          > > Plunder will be inevitable. I can hardly wait to
                                          > > watch from behind my splatter screen. Bill
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: George Walton
                                          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:02 AM
                                          > > Subject: RE: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Eduard,
                                          > >
                                          > > By distractions, I mean any and all
                                          > > renditions---provided folks are willing to
                                          > accept
                                          > > the
                                          > > consequences of the pursuit. Some being more
                                          > > challenging or dangerous or precarious than
                                          > > others.
                                          > >
                                          > > On the other hand, if someone comes into a
                                          > > philosophy
                                          > > venue and reeks of, say, the Christian God, they
                                          > > will
                                          > > find themselves butting heads with one of my own
                                          > > beloved distractions: deconstructing [mostly
                                          > into
                                          > > oblivion] any and all idealism of the
                                          > > religous/philosophical sort. Few things relax me
                                          > > more
                                          > > than pulling the intellectual rug out from under
                                          > > those
                                          > > who claim to have discovered The One And Only
                                          > > Really,
                                          > > Really, TRUE Truth.
                                          > >
                                          > > Cruel to be kind is how I tend to look at it.
                                          > Not
                                          > > many
                                          > > things are more satisfying, after all, than
                                          > > rescuing
                                          > > minds from cinder block thoughts like Right and
                                          > > Wrong,
                                          > > Good and Bad. And, unlike most depromgramers out
                                          > > there, I don't charge a dime.
                                          > >
                                          > > Biggie
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- Eduard Alf <yeoman@...> wrote:
                                          > > > Biggie,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply
                                          > as
                                          > > we
                                          > > > can in distractions,
                                          > > > would not a devotion to god fall in this
                                          > > category?
                                          > > > Or for that matter a
                                          > > > devotion to philosophy. You sound like a
                                          > NOOist
                                          > > ...
                                          > > > :-))
                                          > > >
                                          > > > captain jack
                                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > > From: iambiguously
                                          > > [mailto:iambiguously@...]
                                          > > > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                          > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > From time to time I bump into folks who
                                          > > actually
                                          > > > let philosophy
                                          > > > depress them. They look for meaning that
                                          > isn't
                                          > > > there and
                                          > > > rationalizations for all the pain and
                                          > > suffering
                                          > > > that is. They don't
                                          > > > find it and so "despair".
                                          > > >
                                          > > > What a waste of time.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Life is about living. And whether or not
                                          > there
                                          > > is
                                          > > > some "ultimate
                                          > > > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a
                                          > single
                                          > > > philosopher in
                                          > > > thousands and thousands of years has
                                          > > demonstrated
                                          > > > that there is] it
                                          > > > certainly does not make the food you eat
                                          > less
                                          > > > delicious or the art
                                          > > > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms
                                          > you
                                          > > feel
                                          > > > less exhilarating
                                          > > > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And
                                          > you
                                          > > > always know that,
                                          > > > however unbearable the pain can become, it
                                          > > can't
                                          > > > last forever, eh?
                                          > > > Death is always an option when things get
                                          > too
                                          > > bad.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The best way to endure that which impales us
                                          > > in
                                          > > > the course of living
                                          > > > our lives from day to day is to embed
                                          > > ourselves as
                                          > > > deeply as we can
                                          > > > in distractions: music, sports, careers,
                                          > art,
                                          > > > family etc. Find
                                          > > > something you can be passionaite about and
                                          > > embrace
                                          > > > it. You'll find
                                          > > > you have much less time to think about how
                                          > > > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                          > > > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the
                                          > > only
                                          > > > thing you have to
                                          > > > worry about is getting caught, right?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Biggie
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                          > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Our Home:
                                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                          > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and
                                          > > more.)
                                          > > >
                                          > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an
                                          > email
                                          > > to:
                                          > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                          > > Yahoo!
                                          > > > Terms of Service.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                          > > > removed]
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > __________________________________________________
                                          >
                                          === message truncated ===


                                          __________________________________________________
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                                        • Judith Michelle Lee
                                          Dear Bill It is MEF because Existentialists have failed to address the cognitive science underpinning the Existential dilemmas, and scientists have never had
                                          Message 20 of 26 , May 30, 2002
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear Bill
                                            It is MEF because Existentialists have failed to address the cognitive science underpinning the Existential dilemmas, and scientists have never had any cause to venture into this crazy realm of Existentialism - which leaves me with all the mountains of research and writing to do.
                                            Also, I'm sending another MEF update to follow this email.
                                            jml
                                            Bill Harris <valleywestdental@...> wrote: Judith, MEF has a prior connotation for me. In my Army days it stood for Medical Examination Facility. I spent six years in the MEF where I was training officer. It is where I developed my tender tone and demeanor. The unit, to a man earned the Expert Field Medical Badge. Thats a big deal for combat medics. You , like myself, have a tendency to coin words. One can get the reputation of being "self styled" by creating words. It helps if you not only define the created term but explain it`s derivation, i.e. from the Latin or Greek ect. Currently I am beginning to use the term "prionconstruct" to mean this universe made of protons and neutrons It is in opposition to the "unterconstruct" which is a theoretical underuniverse of quarks. Unter is from the German, meaning under. A prion is a proton or neutron. Of course one of the great joys of making up new words is to screw up "spellchecker" Bill.
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: Judith Michelle Lee
                                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:09 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [existlist] death and philosophy



                                            Dear Bill
                                            The MEF is well and truly in the pipeline, but a lot of work is required, and I can only do my best to juggle the business of living with my various workloads. It's a fantastic livelihood for my neurons.
                                            Meanwhile, your words of encouragement provide every suggestion that you are the sort of person whom would make a great team coach. Such a role would certainly permit you to channel your energies into purposeful activity.
                                            My view is that we are surely backward if the best of the best cannot be made to rise to the top.
                                            jml.




                                            Bill Harris <valleywestdental@...> wrote: George, We havn`t had any good bait for you lately. When Dith holds forth[ or fifth] with her manifesto, you should be knee deep in manufactured verbiage. Plunder will be inevitable. I can hardly wait to watch from behind my splatter screen. Bill
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: George Walton
                                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:02 AM
                                            Subject: RE: [existlist] death and philosophy


                                            Eduard,

                                            By distractions, I mean any and all
                                            renditions---provided folks are willing to accept the
                                            consequences of the pursuit. Some being more
                                            challenging or dangerous or precarious than others.

                                            On the other hand, if someone comes into a philosophy
                                            venue and reeks of, say, the Christian God, they will
                                            find themselves butting heads with one of my own
                                            beloved distractions: deconstructing [mostly into
                                            oblivion] any and all idealism of the
                                            religous/philosophical sort. Few things relax me more
                                            than pulling the intellectual rug out from under those
                                            who claim to have discovered The One And Only Really,
                                            Really, TRUE Truth.

                                            Cruel to be kind is how I tend to look at it. Not many
                                            things are more satisfying, after all, than rescuing
                                            minds from cinder block thoughts like Right and Wrong,
                                            Good and Bad. And, unlike most depromgramers out
                                            there, I don't charge a dime.

                                            Biggie




                                            --- Eduard Alf <yeoman@...> wrote:
                                            > Biggie,
                                            >
                                            > If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply as we
                                            > can in distractions,
                                            > would not a devotion to god fall in this category?
                                            > Or for that matter a
                                            > devotion to philosophy. You sound like a NOOist ...
                                            > :-))
                                            >
                                            > captain jack
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: iambiguously [mailto:iambiguously@...]
                                            > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                                            > let philosophy
                                            > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                                            > there and
                                            > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                                            > that is. They don't
                                            > find it and so "despair".
                                            >
                                            > What a waste of time.
                                            >
                                            > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                                            > some "ultimate
                                            > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                                            > philosopher in
                                            > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                                            > that there is] it
                                            > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                                            > delicious or the art
                                            > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                                            > less exhilarating
                                            > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                                            > always know that,
                                            > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                                            > last forever, eh?
                                            > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                                            >
                                            > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                                            > the course of living
                                            > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                                            > deeply as we can
                                            > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                                            > family etc. Find
                                            > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                                            > it. You'll find
                                            > you have much less time to think about how
                                            > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                            > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                                            > thing you have to
                                            > worry about is getting caught, right?
                                            >
                                            > Biggie
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                            > ADVERTISEMENT
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                            >
                                            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                            > Terms of Service.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                            > removed]
                                            >
                                            >


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                                          • Bill Harris
                                            Judith, How do you define cognative science ? Thanks, Bill ... From: Judith Michelle Lee To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 9:15 AM
                                            Message 21 of 26 , May 30, 2002
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Judith, How do you define "cognative science" ? Thanks, Bill
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Judith Michelle Lee
                                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 9:15 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [existlist] death and philosophy



                                              Dear Bill
                                              It is MEF because Existentialists have failed to address the cognitive science underpinning the Existential dilemmas, and scientists have never had any cause to venture into this crazy realm of Existentialism - which leaves me with all the mountains of research and writing to do.
                                              Also, I'm sending another MEF update to follow this email.
                                              jml
                                              Bill Harris <valleywestdental@...> wrote: Judith, MEF has a prior connotation for me. In my Army days it stood for Medical Examination Facility. I spent six years in the MEF where I was training officer. It is where I developed my tender tone and demeanor. The unit, to a man earned the Expert Field Medical Badge. Thats a big deal for combat medics. You , like myself, have a tendency to coin words. One can get the reputation of being "self styled" by creating words. It helps if you not only define the created term but explain it`s derivation, i.e. from the Latin or Greek ect. Currently I am beginning to use the term "prionconstruct" to mean this universe made of protons and neutrons It is in opposition to the "unterconstruct" which is a theoretical underuniverse of quarks. Unter is from the German, meaning under. A prion is a proton or neutron. Of course one of the great joys of making up new words is to screw up "spellchecker" Bill.
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Judith Michelle Lee
                                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 9:09 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [existlist] death and philosophy



                                              Dear Bill
                                              The MEF is well and truly in the pipeline, but a lot of work is required, and I can only do my best to juggle the business of living with my various workloads. It's a fantastic livelihood for my neurons.
                                              Meanwhile, your words of encouragement provide every suggestion that you are the sort of person whom would make a great team coach. Such a role would certainly permit you to channel your energies into purposeful activity.
                                              My view is that we are surely backward if the best of the best cannot be made to rise to the top.
                                              jml.




                                              Bill Harris <valleywestdental@...> wrote: George, We havn`t had any good bait for you lately. When Dith holds forth[ or fifth] with her manifesto, you should be knee deep in manufactured verbiage. Plunder will be inevitable. I can hardly wait to watch from behind my splatter screen. Bill
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: George Walton
                                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:02 AM
                                              Subject: RE: [existlist] death and philosophy


                                              Eduard,

                                              By distractions, I mean any and all
                                              renditions---provided folks are willing to accept the
                                              consequences of the pursuit. Some being more
                                              challenging or dangerous or precarious than others.

                                              On the other hand, if someone comes into a philosophy
                                              venue and reeks of, say, the Christian God, they will
                                              find themselves butting heads with one of my own
                                              beloved distractions: deconstructing [mostly into
                                              oblivion] any and all idealism of the
                                              religous/philosophical sort. Few things relax me more
                                              than pulling the intellectual rug out from under those
                                              who claim to have discovered The One And Only Really,
                                              Really, TRUE Truth.

                                              Cruel to be kind is how I tend to look at it. Not many
                                              things are more satisfying, after all, than rescuing
                                              minds from cinder block thoughts like Right and Wrong,
                                              Good and Bad. And, unlike most depromgramers out
                                              there, I don't charge a dime.

                                              Biggie




                                              --- Eduard Alf <yeoman@...> wrote:
                                              > Biggie,
                                              >
                                              > If the tactic is to embed ourselves as deeply as we
                                              > can in distractions,
                                              > would not a devotion to god fall in this category?
                                              > Or for that matter a
                                              > devotion to philosophy. You sound like a NOOist ...
                                              > :-))
                                              >
                                              > captain jack
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: iambiguously [mailto:iambiguously@...]
                                              > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                                              > let philosophy
                                              > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                                              > there and
                                              > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                                              > that is. They don't
                                              > find it and so "despair".
                                              >
                                              > What a waste of time.
                                              >
                                              > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                                              > some "ultimate
                                              > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                                              > philosopher in
                                              > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                                              > that there is] it
                                              > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                                              > delicious or the art
                                              > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                                              > less exhilarating
                                              > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                                              > always know that,
                                              > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                                              > last forever, eh?
                                              > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                                              >
                                              > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                                              > the course of living
                                              > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                                              > deeply as we can
                                              > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                                              > family etc. Find
                                              > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                                              > it. You'll find
                                              > you have much less time to think about how
                                              > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                              > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                                              > thing you have to
                                              > worry about is getting caught, right?
                                              >
                                              > Biggie
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                            • Charles
                                              Biggie, Maybe I misunderstood you, and I love philosophy as much as you do, or maybe less. For me philosophy is a pleasure in spite the tediousness I have to
                                              Message 22 of 26 , May 31, 2002
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Biggie,

                                                Maybe I misunderstood you, and I love philosophy as much as you do,
                                                or maybe less. For me philosophy is a pleasure in spite the tediousness
                                                I have to go through in certain occasions. However, your post seems to be
                                                full of contradictions. Philosophy is about the examining of life, and if
                                                that
                                                "can be sheer hell", how do you account for the love of "Why"? and then
                                                extended to those who become "glum, distressed and/or even despairing?

                                                On the other hand, " if human existence is essentially meaningless and
                                                absurd", how can we embed ourselves in distractions like sports, music,
                                                art or any other activity from which we are passionate about it?

                                                Also, "death is always an option when things get so bad". I don't think
                                                that death is an option, nor even a possibility; it is just part of life,
                                                and,
                                                more than anything else, the source of pleasure. If we were immortal we
                                                would not seek for pleasure.

                                                Biggie, this is just a game of words!!!

                                                Charles



                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "George Walton" <iambiguously@...>
                                                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 8:58 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [existlist] death and philosophy


                                                > Charles,
                                                >
                                                > I love philosophy. I doubt if you will find many more
                                                > addicted to the question "Why?".
                                                >
                                                > Someone, however, once said this: always encourage
                                                > others to seek the truth; but, even more so, always
                                                > discourage those who say they have found it.
                                                >
                                                > What I do, then, is to extend that sentiment to those
                                                > who have not found it, as well...those who let this
                                                > bother them to the point they become glum, distressed
                                                > and/or even despairing.
                                                >
                                                > And, as I am wont to point out when others point out
                                                > Socrates infamous comment about the unexamined life
                                                > not being worth living, there is Saul Bellow's
                                                > rebuttal, of sorts: while the unexamined life may not
                                                > be worth living, the examined one can be sheer hell.
                                                >
                                                > So, if human existence is essentially meaningless and
                                                > absurd [and I believe it is], the chances that this
                                                > hell will be propelled [and then sustained]
                                                > philosophically decreases considerably. Hell is about
                                                > circumstances for the most part. When they go South,
                                                > the last thing you need is a miserable philosophy of
                                                > life demoralizing you all the more.
                                                >
                                                > My [mostly faceteous] comment about not getting caught
                                                > revolves around my belief that, in the absense of God,
                                                > our behavioral options increase significantly. With
                                                > God, "bad" behaviors are construed as Sins. He sees
                                                > all so there is never any question of not getting
                                                > caught, eh? And the punishment [up to and including
                                                > eternity in Hell] is a lot more excruciating than what
                                                > happens to you if the law catches you [maybe some jail
                                                > time or community service]. Not that I am advocating
                                                > criminal behavior, of course; it's just that laws are
                                                > construed differently by different people in different
                                                > circumstances. And, without the Almighty up there
                                                > following your every move, escape possibilities
                                                > increase dramatically.
                                                >
                                                > Biggie
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- Charles <cvas2002@...> wrote:
                                                > > Biggie,
                                                > >
                                                > > I don't quite understand the meaning of your last
                                                > > remark: "since god is
                                                > > dead, the only thing you have to
                                                > > worry about is getting caught". It seems to me that
                                                > > you are to the point of
                                                > > dismissing philosophy as an
                                                > > unimportant and useless practice or taken on
                                                > > Pascal's wager here.
                                                > >
                                                > > You are right in saying that no philosopher ever has
                                                > > discovered an "ultimate
                                                > > meaning" out there
                                                > > somewhere. But in my opinion that's the beauty of
                                                > > philosophy; besides, I
                                                > > will agree with Socrates
                                                > > in saying that " a life without examining is not
                                                > > worth living". If you enjoy
                                                > > or prefer physical to
                                                > > intellectual pleasures, that's another matter.
                                                > >
                                                > > Charles
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > > From: "iambiguously" <iambiguously@...>
                                                > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                                > > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > From time to time I bump into folks who actually
                                                > > let philosophy
                                                > > > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                                                > > there and
                                                > > > rationalizations for all the pain and suffering
                                                > > that is. They don't
                                                > > > find it and so "despair".
                                                > > >
                                                > > > What a waste of time.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Life is about living. And whether or not there is
                                                > > some "ultimate
                                                > > > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                                                > > philosopher in
                                                > > > thousands and thousands of years has demonstrated
                                                > > that there is] it
                                                > > > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                                                > > delicious or the art
                                                > > > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you feel
                                                > > less exhilarating
                                                > > > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                                                > > always know that,
                                                > > > however unbearable the pain can become, it can't
                                                > > last forever, eh?
                                                > > > Death is always an option when things get too bad.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The best way to endure that which impales us in
                                                > > the course of living
                                                > > > our lives from day to day is to embed ourselves as
                                                > > deeply as we can
                                                > > > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                                                > > family etc. Find
                                                > > > something you can be passionaite about and embrace
                                                > > it. You'll find
                                                > > > you have much less time to think about how
                                                > > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                                > > > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the only
                                                > > thing you have to
                                                > > > worry about is getting caught, right?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Biggie
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                                > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                                > > >
                                                > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > __________________________________________________
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                                                >
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                                                >
                                                >
                                              • George Walton
                                                Charles, I m not quite sure I am following you. You seem to imply that, regarding philosophy, if you love it or if you are addicted to the question Why?
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jun 3, 2002
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Charles,

                                                  I'm not quite sure I am following you. You seem to
                                                  imply that, regarding philosophy, if you "love" it or
                                                  if you are addicted to the question "Why?" then it
                                                  necessarily follows that you would not experience a
                                                  sense of "terror" or "despair" in what it can expose
                                                  about the human condition. And yet these
                                                  "contradictory" reactions are commonplace regarding
                                                  how we respond to virtually everything in life. For
                                                  example, you might be a great fan of a particular
                                                  baseball team. You "love" it...you follow their games
                                                  passionatiely and your knowledge of baseball is
                                                  enormous. Yet when they lose a crucial game that kicks
                                                  them out of the playoffs your reaction may be anger
                                                  of dejection or exasperation. Or falling in love. Talk
                                                  about the good the bad and the ugly, eh? Walk in on
                                                  your lover cheating with your best friend and you will
                                                  experience just how contradictory feelings of love can
                                                  be.

                                                  The key word is ESSENTIALLY. Existentialism makes a
                                                  very crucial distinction here, epistemologically.
                                                  Meaning in our lives is derived from our actual
                                                  existence, embedded as it necessarily is in
                                                  contingency and ambiguity. Our lives overlap with
                                                  others in some respects but may be enormously
                                                  different in others. Thus the "content" of our opinion
                                                  about, say, abortion, is hopelessly embedded in the
                                                  "context" of our particular lives from the cradle to
                                                  the grave. We do not perceive the moral parameters of
                                                  abortion the way they ARE, we perceive them the way WE
                                                  are, the way we THINK we are. So while meaning in our
                                                  lives may be essentially absurd, existentially, it is
                                                  bursting at the seams!! And awash in contradictions!!!

                                                  Death is always an option, Charles. We can opt to take
                                                  our life [suicide, it's called] if the pain of living
                                                  becomes unendurable. Everyone has their breaking
                                                  point, right?

                                                  Yes, philosophy is often just word games. The biggest
                                                  game of all, however, is being played by those who
                                                  actually think that human language can express a
                                                  Literal relationship between the way the world is and
                                                  the way the world ought to be. That's idealism. And
                                                  idealism is very, very dangerous to human freedom.

                                                  Biggie






                                                  --- Charles <cvas2002@...> wrote:




                                                  > Biggie,
                                                  >
                                                  > Maybe I misunderstood you, and I love philosophy as
                                                  > much as you do,
                                                  > or maybe less. For me philosophy is a pleasure in
                                                  > spite the tediousness
                                                  > I have to go through in certain occasions. However,
                                                  > your post seems to be
                                                  > full of contradictions. Philosophy is about the
                                                  > examining of life, and if
                                                  > that
                                                  > "can be sheer hell", how do you account for the love
                                                  > of "Why"? and then
                                                  > extended to those who become "glum, distressed
                                                  > and/or even despairing?
                                                  >
                                                  > On the other hand, " if human existence is
                                                  > essentially meaningless and
                                                  > absurd", how can we embed ourselves in distractions
                                                  > like sports, music,
                                                  > art or any other activity from which we are
                                                  > passionate about it?
                                                  >
                                                  > Also, "death is always an option when things get so
                                                  > bad". I don't think
                                                  > that death is an option, nor even a possibility; it
                                                  > is just part of life,
                                                  > and,
                                                  > more than anything else, the source of pleasure. If
                                                  > we were immortal we
                                                  > would not seek for pleasure.
                                                  >
                                                  > Biggie, this is just a game of words!!!
                                                  >
                                                  > Charles
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: "George Walton" <iambiguously@...>
                                                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 8:58 AM
                                                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > > Charles,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I love philosophy. I doubt if you will find many
                                                  > more
                                                  > > addicted to the question "Why?".
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Someone, however, once said this: always encourage
                                                  > > others to seek the truth; but, even more so,
                                                  > always
                                                  > > discourage those who say they have found it.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > What I do, then, is to extend that sentiment to
                                                  > those
                                                  > > who have not found it, as well...those who let
                                                  > this
                                                  > > bother them to the point they become glum,
                                                  > distressed
                                                  > > and/or even despairing.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > And, as I am wont to point out when others point
                                                  > out
                                                  > > Socrates infamous comment about the unexamined
                                                  > life
                                                  > > not being worth living, there is Saul Bellow's
                                                  > > rebuttal, of sorts: while the unexamined life may
                                                  > not
                                                  > > be worth living, the examined one can be sheer
                                                  > hell.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > So, if human existence is essentially meaningless
                                                  > and
                                                  > > absurd [and I believe it is], the chances that
                                                  > this
                                                  > > hell will be propelled [and then sustained]
                                                  > > philosophically decreases considerably. Hell is
                                                  > about
                                                  > > circumstances for the most part. When they go
                                                  > South,
                                                  > > the last thing you need is a miserable philosophy
                                                  > of
                                                  > > life demoralizing you all the more.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > My [mostly faceteous] comment about not getting
                                                  > caught
                                                  > > revolves around my belief that, in the absense of
                                                  > God,
                                                  > > our behavioral options increase significantly.
                                                  > With
                                                  > > God, "bad" behaviors are construed as Sins. He
                                                  > sees
                                                  > > all so there is never any question of not getting
                                                  > > caught, eh? And the punishment [up to and
                                                  > including
                                                  > > eternity in Hell] is a lot more excruciating than
                                                  > what
                                                  > > happens to you if the law catches you [maybe some
                                                  > jail
                                                  > > time or community service]. Not that I am
                                                  > advocating
                                                  > > criminal behavior, of course; it's just that laws
                                                  > are
                                                  > > construed differently by different people in
                                                  > different
                                                  > > circumstances. And, without the Almighty up there
                                                  > > following your every move, escape possibilities
                                                  > > increase dramatically.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Biggie
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- Charles <cvas2002@...> wrote:
                                                  > > > Biggie,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I don't quite understand the meaning of your
                                                  > last
                                                  > > > remark: "since god is
                                                  > > > dead, the only thing you have to
                                                  > > > worry about is getting caught". It seems to me
                                                  > that
                                                  > > > you are to the point of
                                                  > > > dismissing philosophy as an
                                                  > > > unimportant and useless practice or taken on
                                                  > > > Pascal's wager here.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > You are right in saying that no philosopher ever
                                                  > has
                                                  > > > discovered an "ultimate
                                                  > > > meaning" out there
                                                  > > > somewhere. But in my opinion that's the beauty
                                                  > of
                                                  > > > philosophy; besides, I
                                                  > > > will agree with Socrates
                                                  > > > in saying that " a life without examining is not
                                                  > > > worth living". If you enjoy
                                                  > > > or prefer physical to
                                                  > > > intellectual pleasures, that's another matter.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Charles
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > > > From: "iambiguously" <iambiguously@...>
                                                  > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                                  > > > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > > From time to time I bump into folks who
                                                  > actually
                                                  > > > let philosophy
                                                  > > > > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                                                  > > > there and
                                                  > > > > rationalizations for all the pain and
                                                  > suffering
                                                  > > > that is. They don't
                                                  > > > > find it and so "despair".
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > What a waste of time.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Life is about living. And whether or not there
                                                  > is
                                                  > > > some "ultimate
                                                  > > > > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                                                  > > > philosopher in
                                                  > > > > thousands and thousands of years has
                                                  > demonstrated
                                                  > > > that there is] it
                                                  > > > > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                                                  > > > delicious or the art
                                                  > > > > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you
                                                  > feel
                                                  > > > less exhilarating
                                                  > > > > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                                                  > > > always know that,
                                                  > > > > however unbearable the pain can become, it
                                                  > can't
                                                  > > > last forever, eh?
                                                  > > > > Death is always an option when things get too
                                                  > bad.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > The best way to endure that which impales us
                                                  > in
                                                  > > > the course of living
                                                  > > > > our lives from day to day is to embed
                                                  > ourselves as
                                                  > > > deeply as we can
                                                  > > > > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                                                  > > > family etc. Find
                                                  > > > > something you can be passionaite about and
                                                  > embrace
                                                  > > > it. You'll find
                                                  > > > > you have much less time to think about how
                                                  > > > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                                  > > > > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the
                                                  > only
                                                  >
                                                  === message truncated ===


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                                                • Bill Harris
                                                  Biggie, I liked your reference to philosophy being the biggest game of all, Great Idea. I will use that, many times. Thanks, Bill ... From: George Walton To:
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jun 3, 2002
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Biggie, I liked your reference to philosophy being the biggest game of all, Great Idea. I will use that, many times. Thanks, Bill
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: George Walton
                                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 7:19 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] death and philosophy


                                                    Charles,

                                                    I'm not quite sure I am following you. You seem to
                                                    imply that, regarding philosophy, if you "love" it or
                                                    if you are addicted to the question "Why?" then it
                                                    necessarily follows that you would not experience a
                                                    sense of "terror" or "despair" in what it can expose
                                                    about the human condition. And yet these
                                                    "contradictory" reactions are commonplace regarding
                                                    how we respond to virtually everything in life. For
                                                    example, you might be a great fan of a particular
                                                    baseball team. You "love" it...you follow their games
                                                    passionatiely and your knowledge of baseball is
                                                    enormous. Yet when they lose a crucial game that kicks
                                                    them out of the playoffs your reaction may be anger
                                                    of dejection or exasperation. Or falling in love. Talk
                                                    about the good the bad and the ugly, eh? Walk in on
                                                    your lover cheating with your best friend and you will
                                                    experience just how contradictory feelings of love can
                                                    be.

                                                    The key word is ESSENTIALLY. Existentialism makes a
                                                    very crucial distinction here, epistemologically.
                                                    Meaning in our lives is derived from our actual
                                                    existence, embedded as it necessarily is in
                                                    contingency and ambiguity. Our lives overlap with
                                                    others in some respects but may be enormously
                                                    different in others. Thus the "content" of our opinion
                                                    about, say, abortion, is hopelessly embedded in the
                                                    "context" of our particular lives from the cradle to
                                                    the grave. We do not perceive the moral parameters of
                                                    abortion the way they ARE, we perceive them the way WE
                                                    are, the way we THINK we are. So while meaning in our
                                                    lives may be essentially absurd, existentially, it is
                                                    bursting at the seams!! And awash in contradictions!!!

                                                    Death is always an option, Charles. We can opt to take
                                                    our life [suicide, it's called] if the pain of living
                                                    becomes unendurable. Everyone has their breaking
                                                    point, right?

                                                    Yes, philosophy is often just word games. The biggest
                                                    game of all, however, is being played by those who
                                                    actually think that human language can express a
                                                    Literal relationship between the way the world is and
                                                    the way the world ought to be. That's idealism. And
                                                    idealism is very, very dangerous to human freedom.

                                                    Biggie






                                                    --- Charles <cvas2002@...> wrote:




                                                    > Biggie,
                                                    >
                                                    > Maybe I misunderstood you, and I love philosophy as
                                                    > much as you do,
                                                    > or maybe less. For me philosophy is a pleasure in
                                                    > spite the tediousness
                                                    > I have to go through in certain occasions. However,
                                                    > your post seems to be
                                                    > full of contradictions. Philosophy is about the
                                                    > examining of life, and if
                                                    > that
                                                    > "can be sheer hell", how do you account for the love
                                                    > of "Why"? and then
                                                    > extended to those who become "glum, distressed
                                                    > and/or even despairing?
                                                    >
                                                    > On the other hand, " if human existence is
                                                    > essentially meaningless and
                                                    > absurd", how can we embed ourselves in distractions
                                                    > like sports, music,
                                                    > art or any other activity from which we are
                                                    > passionate about it?
                                                    >
                                                    > Also, "death is always an option when things get so
                                                    > bad". I don't think
                                                    > that death is an option, nor even a possibility; it
                                                    > is just part of life,
                                                    > and,
                                                    > more than anything else, the source of pleasure. If
                                                    > we were immortal we
                                                    > would not seek for pleasure.
                                                    >
                                                    > Biggie, this is just a game of words!!!
                                                    >
                                                    > Charles
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: "George Walton" <iambiguously@...>
                                                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 8:58 AM
                                                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > > Charles,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I love philosophy. I doubt if you will find many
                                                    > more
                                                    > > addicted to the question "Why?".
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Someone, however, once said this: always encourage
                                                    > > others to seek the truth; but, even more so,
                                                    > always
                                                    > > discourage those who say they have found it.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > What I do, then, is to extend that sentiment to
                                                    > those
                                                    > > who have not found it, as well...those who let
                                                    > this
                                                    > > bother them to the point they become glum,
                                                    > distressed
                                                    > > and/or even despairing.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > And, as I am wont to point out when others point
                                                    > out
                                                    > > Socrates infamous comment about the unexamined
                                                    > life
                                                    > > not being worth living, there is Saul Bellow's
                                                    > > rebuttal, of sorts: while the unexamined life may
                                                    > not
                                                    > > be worth living, the examined one can be sheer
                                                    > hell.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > So, if human existence is essentially meaningless
                                                    > and
                                                    > > absurd [and I believe it is], the chances that
                                                    > this
                                                    > > hell will be propelled [and then sustained]
                                                    > > philosophically decreases considerably. Hell is
                                                    > about
                                                    > > circumstances for the most part. When they go
                                                    > South,
                                                    > > the last thing you need is a miserable philosophy
                                                    > of
                                                    > > life demoralizing you all the more.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > My [mostly faceteous] comment about not getting
                                                    > caught
                                                    > > revolves around my belief that, in the absense of
                                                    > God,
                                                    > > our behavioral options increase significantly.
                                                    > With
                                                    > > God, "bad" behaviors are construed as Sins. He
                                                    > sees
                                                    > > all so there is never any question of not getting
                                                    > > caught, eh? And the punishment [up to and
                                                    > including
                                                    > > eternity in Hell] is a lot more excruciating than
                                                    > what
                                                    > > happens to you if the law catches you [maybe some
                                                    > jail
                                                    > > time or community service]. Not that I am
                                                    > advocating
                                                    > > criminal behavior, of course; it's just that laws
                                                    > are
                                                    > > construed differently by different people in
                                                    > different
                                                    > > circumstances. And, without the Almighty up there
                                                    > > following your every move, escape possibilities
                                                    > > increase dramatically.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Biggie
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- Charles <cvas2002@...> wrote:
                                                    > > > Biggie,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I don't quite understand the meaning of your
                                                    > last
                                                    > > > remark: "since god is
                                                    > > > dead, the only thing you have to
                                                    > > > worry about is getting caught". It seems to me
                                                    > that
                                                    > > > you are to the point of
                                                    > > > dismissing philosophy as an
                                                    > > > unimportant and useless practice or taken on
                                                    > > > Pascal's wager here.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > You are right in saying that no philosopher ever
                                                    > has
                                                    > > > discovered an "ultimate
                                                    > > > meaning" out there
                                                    > > > somewhere. But in my opinion that's the beauty
                                                    > of
                                                    > > > philosophy; besides, I
                                                    > > > will agree with Socrates
                                                    > > > in saying that " a life without examining is not
                                                    > > > worth living". If you enjoy
                                                    > > > or prefer physical to
                                                    > > > intellectual pleasures, that's another matter.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Charles
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > > > From: "iambiguously" <iambiguously@...>
                                                    > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM
                                                    > > > Subject: [existlist] death and philosophy
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > > From time to time I bump into folks who
                                                    > actually
                                                    > > > let philosophy
                                                    > > > > depress them. They look for meaning that isn't
                                                    > > > there and
                                                    > > > > rationalizations for all the pain and
                                                    > suffering
                                                    > > > that is. They don't
                                                    > > > > find it and so "despair".
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > What a waste of time.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Life is about living. And whether or not there
                                                    > is
                                                    > > > some "ultimate
                                                    > > > > meaning" out there somewhere [and not a single
                                                    > > > philosopher in
                                                    > > > > thousands and thousands of years has
                                                    > demonstrated
                                                    > > > that there is] it
                                                    > > > > certainly does not make the food you eat less
                                                    > > > delicious or the art
                                                    > > > > you enjoy less enthralling or the orgasms you
                                                    > feel
                                                    > > > less exhilarating
                                                    > > > > or the love you feel less fulfilling. And you
                                                    > > > always know that,
                                                    > > > > however unbearable the pain can become, it
                                                    > can't
                                                    > > > last forever, eh?
                                                    > > > > Death is always an option when things get too
                                                    > bad.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > The best way to endure that which impales us
                                                    > in
                                                    > > > the course of living
                                                    > > > > our lives from day to day is to embed
                                                    > ourselves as
                                                    > > > deeply as we can
                                                    > > > > in distractions: music, sports, careers, art,
                                                    > > > family etc. Find
                                                    > > > > something you can be passionaite about and
                                                    > embrace
                                                    > > > it. You'll find
                                                    > > > > you have much less time to think about how
                                                    > > > "meaningless" and "futile"
                                                    > > > > everything is. Plus, since God is dead, the
                                                    > only
                                                    >
                                                    === message truncated ===


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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • George Walton
                                                    From the introduction to the anthology Death and Philosophy [edited by Jeff Malpas and Robert C. Solomon] Is death a source of meaningfulness or does it
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                      From the introduction to the anthology Death and Philosophy [edited by Jeff Malpas and Robert C. Solomon]

                                                      "Is death a source of meaningfulness or does it represent the destruction of meaningfulnes? Is the effect of death to render life as nothing but an absurd show----'A tale told by an idiot....signifying nothing'...or might the absurdity of life in the face of death itself provide a source of meaning?"


                                                      Isn't the answer to these questions rather obvious?

                                                      The answer of course is this: "yes".

                                                      Now I am about to read 14 philosophers who will try to inspire me to expand upon this only reasonable point of view.

                                                      And then I will have to decide: are they making a mountain out of a molehill or a molehill out of a mountain.

                                                      Yet [almost without a doubt] the answer will still be the same: "yes".


                                                      George


                                                      ---------------------------------
                                                      Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • trop_de_simones
                                                      Thank you, George. For anyone who cannot wait (either to die or read this book ;D and who wants to read the entire introduction (courtesy of Amazon.com),
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Sep 9, 2005
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                                                        Thank you, George.

                                                        For anyone who cannot wait (either to die or read this book ;D and
                                                        who wants to read the entire introduction (courtesy of Amazon.com),
                                                        please use the following link:

                                                        http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0415191440/ref=sib_fs_bod/104-2900527-
                                                        1142356?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00E&checkSum=9mraa00xl%
                                                        2FIypKnURdVgswNJO6Z2KFyjyZQyvQu6E%2FQ%3D#reader-page

                                                        Our district library doesn't have a copy, so I am depending on you,
                                                        George, to present this molehill of a mountain. My discretionary
                                                        funds will better serve by purchasing Solomon's, About Love:
                                                        Reinventing Romance for Our Times, a worthy distraction ;D

                                                        Yes,
                                                        Simone

                                                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, George Walton <iambiguously@y...>
                                                        wrote:
                                                        > From the introduction to the anthology Death and Philosophy [edited
                                                        by Jeff Malpas and Robert C. Solomon]
                                                        >
                                                        > "Is death a source of meaningfulness or does it represent the
                                                        destruction of meaningfulnes? Is the effect of death to render life
                                                        as nothing but an absurd show----'A tale told by an
                                                        idiot....signifying nothing'...or might the absurdity of life in the
                                                        face of death itself provide a source of meaning?"
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Isn't the answer to these questions rather obvious?
                                                        >
                                                        > The answer of course is this: "yes".
                                                        >
                                                        > Now I am about to read 14 philosophers who will try to inspire me
                                                        to expand upon this only reasonable point of view.
                                                        >
                                                        > And then I will have to decide: are they making a mountain out of a
                                                        molehill or a molehill out of a mountain.
                                                        >
                                                        > Yet [almost without a doubt] the answer will still be the
                                                        same: "yes".
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > George
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > ---------------------------------
                                                        > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
                                                        >
                                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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