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Re: [existlist] Digest Number 172

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  • Randy Zeitman
    ... No one said we don t perceive. I said if something is true it s true regardless of perception. And again, I mean *really true* (existential true, not
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 14, 2000
      >
      >Message: 3
      > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:57:43 +0530
      > From: Misam Abbas <misam_abbas@...>
      >Subject: RE: Digest Number 171
      >
      >The discussion has been pretty intense , and somehow the definition
      >"Truth is that which is regarldless of perception" doesn't seem convincing
      >to me , for of what do we have evidence that we do not perceive. Could
      >someone care to explain.

      No one said we don't perceive. I said if something is true it's true
      regardless of perception. And again, I mean *really true*
      (existential true, not conventional true).

      The process of perception isn't perfect...by definition...it's
      perception. We can never know that what we observe is all that is
      observable. (how would we know?...it's impossible...). So that means
      anything we observe isn't truly real and thus anything we infer about
      it can't be a truth.

      As such, nothing is truly real.

      For people that don't get this: This is an issue of context. This
      discussion is about all possible realities, not simply the reality
      knowable by human perception.

      >And another thing , is truth independent of time and space , or it is
      >transient and local , and to make the discussion more concrete (though
      >philosophical discussions notoriously tend to depart from this) , I would
      >like someone to give an example of truth. Truth , to me , is an absolute ,
      >and I am not too sure what an absolute is, especially since I haven't come
      >across one.

      Same problem....space and time and human perceptions. You're trying
      to measure something that is by definition not possible to know
      (ultimate truth) with tools/terms soley restricted to a human
      context. (It's akin to the newage statement 'crystals have powers
      humans can perceive but can't be measured by science').

      Even the statement "It's true there humans can't know truth" isn't an
      absolute truth because it's in the doman of human existance...though
      it may be the best statement one can make there's no way to know it's
      an absolute truth.

      Philosophy is a model, just as science. Science provides evidences
      for honing a theory but it can't ever say 'this is a universal
      truth'..it says 'this is a truth as much as humans can understand
      truth....what we call a fact'.

      --

      Signature......
      "In the best relationships sex is the booby prize."

      "I'm gotten so out of shape sittin' at the computer all day that I
      get out of breath when I have to reach for the percent key!"

      - Zeitman
    • paul john
      Since the velocity of light = constant, then space and time is relative to the observer. Similiarly Being is constant and truth is relative? ... From: Randy
      Message 2 of 2 , Aug 15, 2000
        Since the velocity of light = constant, then space and time is relative to
        the observer.
        Similiarly Being is constant and truth is relative?
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Randy Zeitman <randzman@...>
        To: <existlist@egroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 9:32 AM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Digest Number 172


        > >
        > >Message: 3
        > > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:57:43 +0530
        > > From: Misam Abbas <misam_abbas@...>
        > >Subject: RE: Digest Number 171
        > >
        > >The discussion has been pretty intense , and somehow the definition
        > >"Truth is that which is regarldless of perception" doesn't seem
        convincing
        > >to me , for of what do we have evidence that we do not perceive. Could
        > >someone care to explain.
        >
        > No one said we don't perceive. I said if something is true it's true
        > regardless of perception. And again, I mean *really true*
        > (existential true, not conventional true).
        >
        > The process of perception isn't perfect...by definition...it's
        > perception. We can never know that what we observe is all that is
        > observable. (how would we know?...it's impossible...). So that means
        > anything we observe isn't truly real and thus anything we infer about
        > it can't be a truth.
        >
        > As such, nothing is truly real.
        >
        > For people that don't get this: This is an issue of context. This
        > discussion is about all possible realities, not simply the reality
        > knowable by human perception.
        >
        > >And another thing , is truth independent of time and space , or it is
        > >transient and local , and to make the discussion more concrete (though
        > >philosophical discussions notoriously tend to depart from this) , I would
        > >like someone to give an example of truth. Truth , to me , is an absolute
        ,
        > >and I am not too sure what an absolute is, especially since I haven't
        come
        > >across one.
        >
        > Same problem....space and time and human perceptions. You're trying
        > to measure something that is by definition not possible to know
        > (ultimate truth) with tools/terms soley restricted to a human
        > context. (It's akin to the newage statement 'crystals have powers
        > humans can perceive but can't be measured by science').
        >
        > Even the statement "It's true there humans can't know truth" isn't an
        > absolute truth because it's in the doman of human existance...though
        > it may be the best statement one can make there's no way to know it's
        > an absolute truth.
        >
        > Philosophy is a model, just as science. Science provides evidences
        > for honing a theory but it can't ever say 'this is a universal
        > truth'..it says 'this is a truth as much as humans can understand
        > truth....what we call a fact'.
        >
        > --
        >
        > Signature......
        > "In the best relationships sex is the booby prize."
        >
        > "I'm gotten so out of shape sittin' at the computer all day that I
        > get out of breath when I have to reach for the percent key!"
        >
        > - Zeitman
        >
        >
        >
        > From The Exist List...
        > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
        >
        >


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