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Re: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of Palestinian Civilians

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  • james tan
    chris, i see. i just wrote another one about my query to the question of legitimacy prior to reading this post of yours. couldn t help thinking along this line
    Message 1 of 3 , May 3, 2002

      i see. i just wrote another one about my query to the question of legitimacy
      prior to reading this post of yours. couldn't help thinking along this line
      when i hear the muslim contributors here keep saying that the israeli is the
      'unlawful', 'illegal', 'illegitimate' occupier of the land of palestine. i
      notice that most of the replies back to them, such as terence and faris,
      basically is not well accepted because the basic premise, about who does the
      land 'really' belongs to, is not shared by both sides. there is no agreement
      how such question of legitimacy can be settled, and as such all subsequent
      discussion on the morality of it all is futile, i think. i might call it a
      question of criterion validity (to use a term in principles of


      From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of
      Palestinian Civilians
      Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 08:13:36 -0700


      As usual you are quite right. We have been talking about the concept of
      "legitimacy" with respect to nation states. One of the problems connected
      with addressing the concept of "legitimacy" is that historically, there have
      been many different tests for legitimacy, and some of these are culturally
      relative. Take for instance the Chinese notion of the Divine Mandate of
      Heaven. We can speak of the "legitimacy" of governments by asking whether
      they were constitutionally constituted, if there is a written constitution
      for proscribing how governments in a particluar local are to be constituted.

      What seems to be at issue in our discussions; however, is not whether any
      particular government or administration is "legitimate" but whether the
      geographical location of a particular nation state is "legitimate". I have
      tried to suggest by traditional measures of such issues, Israel is indeed a
      "legitimate" nation. The test proposed by some --longevity--is not a very
      useful measure as it would prevent all change and is itself subject to


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: james tan
      Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 12:45 AM
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of
      Palestinian Civilians

      the whole thing seem to hinge on the word 'legitimacy'.
      how legitimate is the israel's claim to be there?
      what are the criteria to validity to legitimacy of such claims? are such
      criteria absolutely objective and valid? who is to tell?


      From: "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis"
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>, "Wisdom Forum"
      <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>, "faris osman" <frovpt@...>
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of
      Palestinian Civilians
      Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 01:21:55 +0800

      And thus they are responsible for armed settlers attacking them, for the
      fact that Israeli Apaches fire Hellfire (an anti-armour missile) at civilian
      cars to liquidate suspected terrorists, for Israeli Merkavas (one of the
      most advanced Main Battle Tanks in the world) firing into civilian
      beighbourhoods, etc.

      Now that's rich.

      Why don't I say that millions of innocent Jews, Slavs, gypsies, homosexuals,
      pro-communists and the like are responsible for the massacre for being who
      they are. You forget that Israel is the aggressor here.

      Why not say that the Resistance was responsible for German reprisal attacks
      in Vichy France for having the audacity to oppose Nazi hegemony?

      Terence Nunis
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Christopher Bobo
      To: Wisdom Forum ; faris osman ; Sayf Fariis
      Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 4:36 AM
      Subject: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of Palestinian Civilians

      This commentary argues that Palestinian terrorists are responsible for
      civilian casualities in Jenin


      Jenin's War Criminals


      The United Nations is intent on investigating charges that Israeli
      forces violated the human rights of Palestinians during this month's raid on
      the Jenin refugee camp. Because noncombatants were killed there, the word
      "massacre" is being bandied about in the press. Many in the "human rights
      community," however, have already reached a verdict. "When we are confronted
      with the extent of destruction of the Jenin refugee camp," says Rene
      Kosirnik of the International Committee of the Red Cross, "it is difficult
      to accept that international humanitarian law has been respected." Amnesty
      International claims it too has evidence of human-rights abuses in Jenin.

      Mr. Kosirnik and friends are right about one thing: International
      law was violated in Jenin, and the violations should be investigated. But
      the law was not broken by Israel, which has responded carefully and
      proportionately to the daily murder of its citizens. Under international
      law, the people violating the human rights of Palestinian noncombatants are
      Palestinian terrorists, who have hidden themselves and their weapons --
      without uniforms or other identifying insignia required by the laws of war
      -- among the civilian population of the West Bank.

      In Article 58 of its Protocol relating to the Protection of
      of International Armed Conflicts, the Geneva Convention says those in
      control of territory must "endeavor to remove the civilian population,
      individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the
      vicinity of military objectives; Avoid locating military objectives within
      or near densely populated areas; Take the other necessary precautions to
      protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects
      under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations."

      George H. Aldrich, the chief American negotiator of this treaty,
      has explained that under it, "a party in control of territory" -- as the
      Palestinians were in each West Bank town until the Israelis defeated them --
      "is instructed to take all feasible measures to protect civilians and
      civilian objects from the effects of combat, largely by trying to separate
      them to the extent possible from military objectives." Such a party must
      therefore "avoid unnecessarily siting military objectives near civilian

      The Palestinian terrorists did the exact opposite. Rather than
      "avoid unnecessarily siting military objectives near civilian dwellings,"
      they hid such "objectives" almost exclusively in dwellings and other
      civilian buildings: The bomb factories Israel found throughout the West Bank
      were located in homes, schools and other civilian sites. And rather than
      "trying to separate, to the extent possible, from military objectives," the
      Palestinians went out of their way to hide military objectives behind, in,
      around and under civilian (and even humanitarian) objectives. The ambulance
      containing the bomb belt; the pregnant young woman in "labor" who turns out
      to be about to give birth to a bomb -- these are the most explicit possible
      violations of the international human rights of the population in whose
      midst these military objectives are hidden.

      In a post-battle interview with the Cairo weekly Al-Ahram, an Arab
      bomb maker named "Omar" proudly laid out the Palestinians' strategy of
      militarizing homes: "We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the
      camp," he said. Unarmed women lured Israeli soldiers to their deaths.

      The Palestinians used the civilian population like this, we know,
      because that is part of their strategy: make victims and then cry about
      victims. Plus, knowing they cannot face the IDF in the field, the
      Palestinians tried to cripple the Israeli army by hiding among civilians,
      thereby forcing the real soldiers to hold back. The Palestinians knew that
      the Israelis -- a disciplined army of husbands and fathers -- would restrain
      themselves to avoid killing noncombatants.

      Even Arab fighters have admitted the Israelis did exactly that.
      Captured Jenin-based terrorist Thabet Mardawi told CNN last week that he
      "and other Palestinian fighters had expected Israel to attack with planes
      and tanks." "I couldn't believe it when I saw the soldiers," he said. "The
      Israelis knew that any soldier who went into the camp like that was going to
      get killed." Shooting at these men as they walked cautiously down the street
      "was like hunting . . . like being given a prize. . . I've been waiting for
      a moment like that for years."

      Can it be any clearer? The 13 Israeli soldiers killed in that
      deathtrap died precisely because they were trying to discriminate between
      military and nonmilitary "objectives" the way a Daisy Cutter can't. In other
      words, they were trying to undo the effect of the human-rights violations
      inflicted on the population of Jenin by the terrorist army that made its
      home there.

      Eventually, of course -- as was certain to happen so long as they
      were not pulled out too soon -- the Israelis were successful in their
      mission. But the Palestinian terrorists, having planted themselves among
      civilians, have harvested a fresh crop of victims, which they are now using
      for public-relations purposes. The U.N. investigation in Jenin is the fruit
      of that PR campaign. What the Palestinians did to harvest that fruit,
      however is the real violation of the West Bank residents' human rights.

      The only proper question for the U.N. to ask about Israel's
      conduct, by contrast, is whether it was a proportionate response to this
      provocation and to these methods of fighting. If the U.N. wants to
      investigate that question again, it should be free to do so. But it cannot
      even pose the question properly without an accurate understanding of the
      unceasing human-rights violations that Israel confronted as its soldiers
      walked slowly down the booby-trapped streets of Jenin, trying to tell the
      difference between innocent victims of war and the terrorists hiding among
      them, using them as human shields.

      That fraud is the real human-rights violation in Jenin, and
      throughout the West Bank.

      Mr. Marcus, an attorney with the State Department in 1987-88, is a
      lawyer in Philadelphia.

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