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Massacre at Jenin Doubted

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  • james tan
    for most muslims, there are emotional reasons to want to believe in the suffering of their fellow muslims. where there are strong emotions involved, it is
    Message 1 of 2 , May 3, 2002
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      for most muslims, there are emotional reasons to want to believe in the
      'suffering' of their 'fellow' muslims. where there are strong emotions
      involved, it is a bit harder to maintain objectiveness.

      james.


      From: cbobo@...
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Massacre at Jenin Doubted
      Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:16:06 -0700 (PDT)

      From: Christopher Bobo

      Despite earlier claims of a massacre at Jenin, the evidence suggests
      otherwise. Question: why were some so willing to rush to judgment in the
      absence of real evidence and doesn't that bring into question other
      conclusions that may have been reached? Is this a real life argument for
      adopting a skeptical attitude and countering the influence of emotion and
      ideology on our judgments?

      --------------------
      Massacre at Jenin Doubted
      --------------------

      By T. CHRISTIAN MILLER
      TIMES STAFF WRITER

      May 3 2002

      JENIN, West Bank -- No matter how few bodies have been found, people in
      Jenin remain convinced that Israeli soldiers committed a massacre here. But
      there is a growing consensus among human rights groups, international aid
      workers and even some Palestinians that no massacre took place.

      The complete article can be viewed at:
      http://www.latimes.com/la-000031460may03.story

      Visit Latimes.com at http://www.latimes.com








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    • james tan
      hello zai, i could feel ur disgust coming out of my computer screen! i like ur sarcasm when u describe me as smart - it excited me for 5 minutes! ok, maybe i
      Message 2 of 2 , May 4, 2002
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        hello zai,

        i could feel ur disgust coming out of my computer screen! i like ur sarcasm
        when u describe me as 'smart' - it excited me for 5 minutes! ok, maybe i
        should have been more sensitive with what i wanted to say. and the fact that
        i did not has made u disgusted!! other than the 'necessary' deaths in any
        war situations (and what do u expect in a war!), the 'facts' i gathered is
        that there has been gross exaggeration from the palestinian media about the
        number of palestinians killed, and apparently the so-called massacre is also
        a fabrication by the palestinians to elicit world sympathy their plight
        (especially the arab nations, i guess). to date, there has been a lot of
        conflicting reports on what is going on down there, but reports on cosmic
        proportion cruelty by the israeli on the palestinians tend to be palestinian
        sympathizer/writers/journalists, and until there is a third party such as
        the united nations (i suppose america as third party does not have much
        credibility in the eyes of muslims?!), such reports can only be taken with a
        pinch of salts (perhaps barrels of salts). the facts that they were not, but
        instead taken as basis by muslims for mass overreaction and indignation
        seems to suggest a certain over identification (but this is pretty
        understandable) with the palestinians which in turn propense them towards a
        uncritical acceptance. when i mentioned 'emotional' in my previous post, i
        was not exactly suggesting u get all worked up, ready to riot in the streets
        shouting like mad dogs (or some of the indonesians over senior minister's
        remarks about.....gee, i forgot...), and all red & purple in the face with
        veins protruding; i was referring to the emotional attachment in terms of
        care, concern, affinity, 'brotherhood' muslims have with the palestinians.
        it is like, when ur mother have a tiff with a stranger, u tend to side with
        ur mom even if u know in ur head that she has been the one who is abusive
        and unreasonable and the whole thing turned nasty (this is what i mean by
        'objectiveness'). now, apart from casualties that is inherent in a war (if
        palestinians do not want war, they do have the option of peaceful
        negotiation together with the UN, but so far, they choose the option of
        violence through suicide bombing of innocent israeli civilians in bus,
        church, wedding, etc, and if u expect that the israeli do nothing about this
        incitement, then u are not being fair and reasonable, and if israeli do
        really respond, u cannot reasonably expect there will be no death to some of
        the palestinians, notably the militants, and incidentally there are
        evidences that arafat supports the actions and means of the militants in
        spite of outward lip service to peaceful means of resolving the conflicts.
        and, if palestinians girls and boys of age as young as 8, 9 or 18 are
        volunteering to be suicide bomber, u can reasonably expect the israeli to be
        suspicious of apparent palestinian 'civilians', and checking at them, even
        with guns pointing, since they never know who could be a potential 'martyr',
        and they are just preempting any emergency), to claim that there is massacre
        is unfounded, so why get overly 'hysterical' about it? it is like u hearing
        about a stranger that has cut off a limb of ur mom, and reacting to it in
        equal measure when all the stranger did is to scold her, "u old hag!!" (when
        ur mom has started the thing to begin with by shouting at him, "u bastard
        piece of shit!!")

        having said all that, i do think what has happened down there is
        regrettable. (but it seems they have been fighting each other since biblical
        times, the jews under saul and david and all that, against the
        philistines.....and if the past is anything to go by, perhaps it will
        predict with some accuracy their mutual future together.... perhaps it is
        their destiny to have such mutual conflict, they have it all long, they are
        still not tired about it). war being war, there will be death, and it is
        hard to say what is fair and what is not fair (don't start or provoke one in
        the first place if u think u cant tackle, and if u want to start one, don't
        complain of cruelty of war). i think the israeli might have been 'gentler',
        though i wish the palestinians would stop provoking israel by killing
        innocent israeli civilians. the bottom line is: the palestinians DO have the
        option of peaceful negotiation. the constant complaint that israeli is cruel
        and inhumane sounds really hollow when they keep sending 'martyr' to kill
        israeli civilians. u get what u sow: if palestinians wants to be 'martyr',
        then israel will give the palestinians more 'martyr'. i stress again: there
        is option for palestinians to found a state of palestine through the UN
        through a peaceful process.

        there is little point in shouting at U.S. as coward. i don't think they are.
        they maybe disagreeable, but i don't think they are cowards. u know, when
        their spy plane was nosing like a mosquitos around china's border and
        clashed with a plane of china, i was really pissed off with them as well.
        just as u are emotionally attached to the palestinians, i am to china. i
        thought bush at least owed china a formal apology, and he did, but it seems
        most reluctantly, like a grouchy boy in front of hs mistake and angry
        parents. i was very disturbed when i heard that chinese women were raped by
        indonesian muslims in indonesia, and frankly, i was angry; but i checked
        with other sources of news about the accuracy of it all. although china felt
        israel could have been more humane, there is no doubt in the eyes of the
        world, including china, that there were terrorist attacks by palestinians
        against israeli civilians. try to imagine this: a man walk into the malay
        wedding of ur sister, with hundreds of people in the void deck, including ur
        aunts and uncles, ur favorite cousins, some babies around, some nephews
        playing hide and seeks, and this man just blew himself up that killed not
        just him, but all of u; and that was precisely his intention: to blow all of
        u up. if u don't think this is terrorist attack, then i can't help it with
        ur denial: we can't even agree with definition!! as to who does that piece
        of land belongs to, what is ur standard or criteria of deciding? is ur
        criteria subjective? how does ur criterion applies to singapore itself?

        why, zai, singapore is already a sovereign nation. u mean, u haven't
        accepted this fact? u mean, u still think it is a state of malaysia, like
        maybe johore bahru? did u serve ur national service in the army? maybe u are
        still under 18 (pre-enlistment age), or maybe u are not singaporean, or
        maybe u are dreaming of that 'glorious' day when singapore is singapura
        again, when it is returned and remerged to malaysia? i don't question ur
        loyalty. when i served in the army, some of my buddies were malays, and we
        had good time. during my basic military training in the first three months,
        my platoon commander was a malay, a full lieutenant. i am also aware that
        singapore was part of malaysia, and it was the first malaysian prime
        minister who declared that singapore is 'out', and became independent. the
        decision was one that 'shattered' singapore's first prime minister, but we
        as singaporean (and not as chinese, malay, or indians) moved on and make
        progress. i don't see why anyone should question the loyalty of malays as
        the different ethnic races make their contribution to the progress of this
        'new' nation (and not a state of malaysia). right now, malaysia is already
        using words like, "just as there are different ways to skin a cat, there are
        different ways to skin singapore", and i wonder/curious how u feel about
        such attitude towards singapore. it is with the same kind of (bad) breath
        that harbibi used to say that singapore is merely a red dot on a map. these
        two predominantly muslim leaders of asian countries are making such
        derogatory and patronizing remarks, and i am just curious of ur comments on
        it.

        malay rights in singapore violated? maybe it is different from ur
        perspective, but i don't think that is the case. i see them in the army, in
        the work force, in the local universities and polytechnics, in school,
        everywhere in singapore. there are books in public libraries for malays as
        well. special cooking (halai) are reserved and prepared for them in the
        armed forces, special prayer rooms are made for them in universities and
        polytechnics, special previlege are given to them in fridays in the work
        force (at least the places i used to work in) to go off earlier for friday
        prayers, and special privilege is given to them when applying for flats and
        school fees, national songs are sang in malays, the commands in e army are
        also in malays, etc. and opportunity for higher studies or works is based on
        meritocracy, not race. (although right now, malays seems a little behind in
        academic achievement as a race compared to chinese and indians, but i am
        sure they can catch up if they are interested). the chinese do not have all
        these, but we don't mind, we can live with that; we are happy, in fact, that
        special accomodation can be made where we can if our fellow singaporean are
        happy about it.

        honestly i do not know why the govt has closed down all malay schools and
        have allowed all chinese schools (sap). i guess there were some explanation,
        but i thought they were not very convincing myself either. in this regards,
        i do feel there is some 'inequality'. e explanation is something like, the
        number of malays here do not justify such a big scale expense, so something
        similar but on a smaller scale is set up. and it is set up. proportional, so
        to speak, which does sound logical mathematically. and seems fair too. would
        u give different classes of pupils equal amount of goodies with each class
        of different size in terms of number? as i am not particularly interested in
        this area, i do not read much into it. i don't know. maybe u can ask ur
        malays mp, and perhaps there is a good reason behind. but malay being a
        minority should not be a problem since the govt so far has demonstrated
        impartiality and fairness. if i am a chinese in malaysia, i may score
        distinction for all subjects, that does not guarantee me a place in
        university because of race quota for chinese (a miserable minute qouta -
        can't remmember the persontage, but i guess itis something like 5% from all
        races outside malays?), even if there are still lots of available places
        because those places are reserved only for malays and empty because the
        malays cannot meet the minimum entry requirement, i will call that as
        unfair. it is happening in malaysia, it is not happening in singapore: the
        govt did not set a maximum number of malays who can enter university. u meet
        the grade, u beat the competition in terms of results, u go in. of course,
        that does not mean that the malays do not have to compete with the chinese
        or indians in terms of academic results. but do not confound the fact that
        many chinese enter university because of race. the malays in malaysia do not
        have such stress, since the malays policy of malaysia have reserved at least
        95%?, to only malays. buminbutras. and, unless u are in malaysia, do not
        dream that such privilege as the malaysian malays enjoy will operate here in
        singapore. u may lament about it, but at the end of the day, singapore is
        not malaysia. yes, i know it used to be a malay place, yes, there could be
        some nostalgia for some lost paradise where privileges were much more
        abundant for being a malay, but i hope u do come to accept that here and now
        is singapore, not malaysia. and again, i dont see why the loyalty of malays
        in singapore should be questioned, unless there is a plan or secret agenda
        to restore the lost paradise?! but it is already a paradise in singapore,
        malays or otherwise, isn't it? except for the right to wear headscarfs to
        school? but there are reasons for it at this point in time and space.

        anyway, have a good day.

        james.

        From: "zurlyana" <zurlyana@...>
        Reply-To: Fateha@yahoogroups.com
        To: <Fateha@yahoogroups.com>, <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [Fateha] Massacre at Jenin Doubted
        Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 18:52:25 +0800

        Mr. James,

        I've read with disgust on your comments. Most Muslim are emotionals?
        Haven't U read any condemnation from the European country, and for your
        info, CHINA ( CHINESE ) is also condemning the Israels for the massacre at
        Jenin. Is not only Muslims, is the majority Human race on earth who is also
        condemning the Barbarian act. Unless you are not human, then you must be a
        heartless human.

        What "objectiveness" r u referring?? U must the be the one who has strong
        'emotion' on not realising the truth that is happening in Palestin, yes U
        have not read it wrong it is PALESTIN. How would you feel if someone enter
        your home and destroy everything that you have? Kill your family and make
        you homeless, and later claim that you don't have the right to your own
        homeland?? And their claim, looking for a
        suspect terrorist. What will U do? This is the most coward act and supported
        by an even bigger COWARD, the USA.

        This is whats happening here. The Malays used to own this tiny Island, and
        now, they are only minority, and they are deprieved of their right. They
        closed down all the Malay Schools, and even try to erase history of Sang
        Nila Utama ( Funny, he's not Malay ), it must be crazy to erase history on
        the founder of SINGAPURA. They can have SAP schools, but not Malay schools.
        And after having the privillages of settling here, U grew in number, and
        start questioning our loyalty. Have U heard any Malays questioning the
        loyalty of other races?? Or have U lost touch on the actual history of
        Singapura. Then why don't try going to the library and check on the facts

        Then ask yourself a question, what will U do if you are Malay, or what will
        U feel if U are a Palestenian? And how will U feel if someone says that U R
        emotional on the 'suffering' of their 'fellow' Muslims.

        For most Chinese, there emotionals reasons to want to believe in 'suffering'
        of their 'fellow' Chinese when the Indonesian Chinese woman claims of rape a
        few years ago? Do you believe there's a strong emotions involved, and its
        harder to maintain objectiveness? Guess you have the answer, smart James.



        Zainuddin Ismail




        -----Original Message-----
        From: james tan <tyjfk@...>
        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:31 PM
        Subject: [Fateha] Massacre at Jenin Doubted


        >
        >for most muslims, there are emotional reasons to want to believe in the
        >'suffering' of their 'fellow' muslims. where there are strong emotions
        >involved, it is a bit harder to maintain objectiveness.
        >
        >james.
        >
        >
        >From: cbobo@...
        >Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        >To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [WisdomForum] Massacre at Jenin Doubted
        >Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:16:06 -0700 (PDT)
        >
        >From: Christopher Bobo
        >
        >Despite earlier claims of a massacre at Jenin, the evidence suggests
        >otherwise. Question: why were some so willing to rush to judgment in the
        >absence of real evidence and doesn't that bring into question other
        >conclusions that may have been reached? Is this a real life argument for
        >adopting a skeptical attitude and countering the influence of emotion and
        >ideology on our judgments?
        >
        >--------------------
        >Massacre at Jenin Doubted
        >--------------------
        >
        >By T. CHRISTIAN MILLER
        >TIMES STAFF WRITER
        >
        >May 3 2002
        >
        >JENIN, West Bank -- No matter how few bodies have been found, people in
        >Jenin remain convinced that Israeli soldiers committed a massacre here.
        But
        >there is a growing consensus among human rights groups, international aid
        >workers and even some Palestinians that no massacre took place.
        >
        >The complete article can be viewed at:
        >http://www.latimes.com/la-000031460may03.story
        >
        >Visit Latimes.com at http://www.latimes.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >_________________________________________________________________
        >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
        http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
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        >









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