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Re: What is money?

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  • james tan
    perhaps dollars and money of a country is backed by the amount of goods and services actually available in that country. a poor country who does not have the
    Message 1 of 4 , May 3, 2002
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      perhaps dollars and money of a country is backed by the amount of goods and
      services actually available in that country. a poor country who does not
      have the wealth in terms of actual goods and services and print lots of
      dollars will have very weak dollars - one can't fake such things. one could
      perhaps say that the value of a currency is given by the amount of dollars
      printed divide by the actual amount of goods and services. when a country
      donate money to another, what is happening in effect could be that the donor
      country is giving away goods and services in the abstract form. common sense
      - which may not be correct.

      james.


      From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: What is money?
      Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 00:09:15 -0000

      Actually it hasn't said that on the dollar in years. The point here
      is that the dollar is NOT backed by gold or silver or any other
      precious commodity. So what is it backed by? What does it represent?
      What gives it value? Why do people want it and accept it as payment
      for anything? Of course gold, too, when used as money is not gold per
      se. For what is gold, really, but a desirable form of metal that can
      be used for various special aplications but, as Mr. Bobo said
      earlier, you can't eat or drink it or use it to keep warm. Basically
      you can wear it as adornment or use it for some specialized
      industrial purposes but not everyone has a need for that and
      certainly not all the time. So when it's serving as money it's really
      something other than the precious metal we call gold. What is it?
      Just a proxy for value to be used in the exchange of values we call
      the economic process. So when gold is being used as money, it's not
      much different than the greenback. So, again, what is this thing we
      call money and how does it work? -- SWM


      --- In WisdomForum@y..., "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John
      Nunis" <terence_nunis@p...> wrote:
      > It says on the dollar that there is a promise to pay the bearer the
      stated amount of gold equivalent. What if more than a fewpeople
      tried that?
      >
      > The dollar is only valuable as long as people continue to value
      it. What if they lose faith in it? What if they stop valueing it as
      more than a piece of paper? What happens then? It is supposed to be
      backed by gold but most of the world has since left the gold
      standard. What happens when the rest of the world wakes up and
      realizes that most of the currencies of the world are not backed by
      enough gold? In effect, not woth the paper it is printed on?
      >
      > How long can we borrow from the future? Eventually, the whole
      system will come down.
      >
      > Terence Nunis
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Christopher Bobo
      > To: Wisdom Forum
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 9:58 AM
      > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] What is money?
      >
      >
      > Gold has no inherent value. Gold was valued for the same reason
      that the U.S. Dollar is valued today, because they are units of
      exchange. Be it gold or dollars, the only value they have is that
      people want them. People wanted gold because you could take
      possession of it in one place, travel thousands of miles, and
      exchange it for something of value in the place at which you arrive
      after traveling thousands of miles. One cannot eat gold or dollars,
      nor can build a house out of gold or values. You can't make useful
      clothes out of gold and dollars don't serve very well for clothing
      either.
      >
      > As I suggested earlier, dollars are useful because you can buy
      things with them that you can't buy with gold. Dollars are also
      easier to transport than gold. If, for instance, you want to buy a
      brand new Boeing airliner, Microsoft software, IBM computers, an F-16
      or three tons of U.S. wheat and a! ll you have is gold, you would
      first have to convert your gold to dollars in order to make the
      purchase. Similarly, if you want a Harvard MBA of an MIT PhD in
      physics, you'll have to have dollars, not gold. A dollar is of known
      value, in terms of the basket of goods that you can get for it, but
      an ounce of gold is of uncertain value. With gold, it is difficult
      to tell its purity and you can't be sure if your getting a solid gold
      bar or a gold plated bar of lead. Ultimately, value is a function of
      what you can get with what you have. The dollar is valuable because
      you can use it to get a bag of walnuts or a telecommunications
      satellite, not so with gold.
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > ! From: swmaerske
      > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:23 PM
      > To: WisdomForum@y...
      > Subject: [WisdomForum] What is money?
      >
      > Awhile back Mr. Nunis posted an article which challenged the
      worth of
      > the dollar and suggested that a gold standard would be
      preferable in
      > terms of intrinsic value. Since we have been talking about
      value here
      > (and more particularly about moral value) and since the recent
      > attempt to apply our moral theorizing to a real life situation
      has
      > come up somewhat dry, I propose we step back and have a look at
      the
      > question of value in this other context, i.e., what is money
      and,
      > more particularly, is gold an inherently better form of money
      than
      > the fiat paper system we now rely on? In some sense it seems
      > intuitive that gold is better than paper. Indeed, many have
      claimed
      > this. I bel! ieved it myself for quite a few years. And yet our
      paper
      > money system seems to have gone from strength to strength,
      > particularly as regards the American dollar. Those who dislike
      > America don't like this fact either. And yet the dollar seems
      so real
      > to the world that it is sought, often above gold, itself. So
      what is
      > there about the dollar that makes it valuable and an item to be
      > sought and accumulated? I mean it's just a piece of paper with
      some
      > printing on it? Or, in a bank or similar account, it's just a
      > notation of some numbers on a ledger (real or virtual). So why
      do so
      > many people want dollars? And should they?
      >
      > SWM









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    • judith@qbase.org
      Hi James Money should be a unit of exchange. Presently the might of the USD reflects its economic, political and defence hegemony - this is complex and
      Message 2 of 4 , May 6, 2002
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        Hi James

        Money should be a unit of exchange. Presently the might of the USD reflects
        its economic, political and defence hegemony - this is complex and requires
        a lot of study.

        Some trends I've noticed in global markets:
        - increasing economic and political regionalisation (prime example is Euro)
        - increasing synchronisation of markets, especially debt capital markets
        - increasing accuracy of monetary policy targeting
        - increasing proliferation of multi-national corporations (globalisation)
        accounting in USD

        Future issues include:
        - smart cards
        - potential for a global currency
        - threat of small communities setting up private (barter or other unit)
        exchanges - these already exist in a number of countries including within
        the US itself.

        Also, did you know that a Reserve Bank can earn a tidy income on the side
        from seigniorage? This is done when the reserve bank buys old currency
        (ratty condition due to being in circulation too long), destroys it and
        reprints the equivalent for redistribution into the financial system. So for
        instance, destroy one dollar of greenback and print another at the cost of
        only x cents. Interestingly I have not come across any research into the
        true profit on seigniorage, but it would seem to be a self-perperpetuating
        process augmented by declining unit cost of production (the US still relies
        on cheap paper money compared to polymer). A multiplier effect would also
        come into the equation. Note, seigniorage could not happen with elements
        such as gold.

        Here's an article for anyone interested in reading about USD directions...
        http://www.federalreserve.gov//boarddocs/speeches/2001/20011205/default.htm

        My view is that a global smartcard would be in good order.

        Regards, Judith.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
        To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 12:11 AM
        Subject: [existlist] Re: What is money?


        >
        > perhaps dollars and money of a country is backed by the amount of goods
        and
        > services actually available in that country. a poor country who does not
        > have the wealth in terms of actual goods and services and print lots of
        > dollars will have very weak dollars - one can't fake such things. one
        could
        > perhaps say that the value of a currency is given by the amount of dollars
        > printed divide by the actual amount of goods and services. when a country
        > donate money to another, what is happening in effect could be that the
        donor
        > country is giving away goods and services in the abstract form. common
        sense
        > - which may not be correct.
        >
        > james.
        >
        >
        > From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
        > Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        > To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: What is money?
        > Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 00:09:15 -0000
        >
        > Actually it hasn't said that on the dollar in years. The point here
        > is that the dollar is NOT backed by gold or silver or any other
        > precious commodity. So what is it backed by? What does it represent?
        > What gives it value? Why do people want it and accept it as payment
        > for anything? Of course gold, too, when used as money is not gold per
        > se. For what is gold, really, but a desirable form of metal that can
        > be used for various special aplications but, as Mr. Bobo said
        > earlier, you can't eat or drink it or use it to keep warm. Basically
        > you can wear it as adornment or use it for some specialized
        > industrial purposes but not everyone has a need for that and
        > certainly not all the time. So when it's serving as money it's really
        > something other than the precious metal we call gold. What is it?
        > Just a proxy for value to be used in the exchange of values we call
        > the economic process. So when gold is being used as money, it's not
        > much different than the greenback. So, again, what is this thing we
        > call money and how does it work? -- SWM
        >
        >
        > --- In WisdomForum@y..., "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John
        > Nunis" <terence_nunis@p...> wrote:
        > > It says on the dollar that there is a promise to pay the bearer the
        > stated amount of gold equivalent. What if more than a fewpeople
        > tried that?
        > >
        > > The dollar is only valuable as long as people continue to value
        > it. What if they lose faith in it? What if they stop valueing it as
        > more than a piece of paper? What happens then? It is supposed to be
        > backed by gold but most of the world has since left the gold
        > standard. What happens when the rest of the world wakes up and
        > realizes that most of the currencies of the world are not backed by
        > enough gold? In effect, not woth the paper it is printed on?
        > >
        > > How long can we borrow from the future? Eventually, the whole
        > system will come down.
        > >
        > > Terence Nunis
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Christopher Bobo
        > > To: Wisdom Forum
        > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 9:58 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] What is money?
        > >
        > >
        > > Gold has no inherent value. Gold was valued for the same reason
        > that the U.S. Dollar is valued today, because they are units of
        > exchange. Be it gold or dollars, the only value they have is that
        > people want them. People wanted gold because you could take
        > possession of it in one place, travel thousands of miles, and
        > exchange it for something of value in the place at which you arrive
        > after traveling thousands of miles. One cannot eat gold or dollars,
        > nor can build a house out of gold or values. You can't make useful
        > clothes out of gold and dollars don't serve very well for clothing
        > either.
        > >
        > > As I suggested earlier, dollars are useful because you can buy
        > things with them that you can't buy with gold. Dollars are also
        > easier to transport than gold. If, for instance, you want to buy a
        > brand new Boeing airliner, Microsoft software, IBM computers, an F-16
        > or three tons of U.S. wheat and a! ll you have is gold, you would
        > first have to convert your gold to dollars in order to make the
        > purchase. Similarly, if you want a Harvard MBA of an MIT PhD in
        > physics, you'll have to have dollars, not gold. A dollar is of known
        > value, in terms of the basket of goods that you can get for it, but
        > an ounce of gold is of uncertain value. With gold, it is difficult
        > to tell its purity and you can't be sure if your getting a solid gold
        > bar or a gold plated bar of lead. Ultimately, value is a function of
        > what you can get with what you have. The dollar is valuable because
        > you can use it to get a bag of walnuts or a telecommunications
        > satellite, not so with gold.
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > ! From: swmaerske
        > > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:23 PM
        > > To: WisdomForum@y...
        > > Subject: [WisdomForum] What is money?
        > >
        > > Awhile back Mr. Nunis posted an article which challenged the
        > worth of
        > > the dollar and suggested that a gold standard would be
        > preferable in
        > > terms of intrinsic value. Since we have been talking about
        > value here
        > > (and more particularly about moral value) and since the recent
        > > attempt to apply our moral theorizing to a real life situation
        > has
        > > come up somewhat dry, I propose we step back and have a look at
        > the
        > > question of value in this other context, i.e., what is money
        > and,
        > > more particularly, is gold an inherently better form of money
        > than
        > > the fiat paper system we now rely on? In some sense it seems
        > > intuitive that gold is better than paper. Indeed, many have
        > claimed
        > > this. I bel! ieved it myself for quite a few years. And yet our
        > paper
        > > money system seems to have gone from strength to strength,
        > > particularly as regards the American dollar. Those who dislike
        > > America don't like this fact either. And yet the dollar seems
        > so real
        > > to the world that it is sought, often above gold, itself. So
        > what is
        > > there about the dollar that makes it valuable and an item to be
        > > sought and accumulated? I mean it's just a piece of paper with
        > some
        > > printing on it? Or, in a bank or similar account, it's just a
        > > notation of some numbers on a ledger (real or virtual). So why
        > do so
        > > many people want dollars? And should they?
        > >
        > > SWM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
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        >
      • james tan
        the only reason gold was used, i guess, is not so much because there is intrinsic value to gold, but gold at one time was wanted, or desired. any piece of shit
        Message 3 of 4 , May 6, 2002
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          the only reason gold was used, i guess, is not so much because there is
          intrinsic value to gold, but gold at one time was wanted, or desired. any
          piece of shit that is wanted has a value: people are willing (and able) to
          give u what u want for what they want: we are social creature, not just
          emotionally, but materially. but not everybody desire gold, eg, chris. one
          of my friends actually buy the soiled panties of young girls and pay good
          money for it. but so long as there is enough people who desire a particular
          products which somehow satisfy some human needs (normally or abnormally),
          that product is what make money meaningful. i can use money to buy coke, or
          a computer; when i give them the dollars, they take it. in turn, they could
          use the dollars to get what they want, whatever that is: it could be a
          seasoned penis of a tiger. and what is needed or wanted is being
          manufactured or grown: we cut down trees, we go to work in a place which
          manufacture some kind of goods or provides some kind of services (well,
          prostitutes contribute to society's needs or wants by some kind of special
          service, which is certainly in demand, moral or not), we learn skills for
          the sake of some employment that is concerned with manufacture (more goods),
          we tap energy, we try to find resources. because we need resources to make
          possible goods and services, both of which are consumed by mankind. it is
          what all money is about: to get the things we want, and what we want matters
          because we are almighty humans, and because our needs and wants are
          almighty, it has to be satisfied, and the rewards of those satisfaction is
          ur own satisfaction. money is the medium of that satisfaction, of those
          transactions to meet that satisfaction. it is basically the barter system of
          old, except that some govt body (universally accepted as some kind of
          authority in social and policing matters, including the legitimacy of
          dollars) for the sake of convenience, translate all goods and services into
          a 'common denominator', ie, money. therefore, it has to be legal tender:
          there is no validity to a currency to buy goods and services that u print at
          the backyard of ur own house. eg, if a american tourist go to thailand to
          spend his american notes, he will realise he could buy more things there,
          (or enjoy more services, whatever those are), because relative to the thai
          baht (thai currency), there is actually more goods and services invested
          already in those currency than the thai bahts. and tourism is indeed a
          revenue for the country to earn: it is getting in resources (and who does
          not appreciate resources?) to the country implied in those currency earned.
          ie, with those income of u.s. currency, the thai could actually,
          legitimately, ably, buy goods and services from america, and the good thing
          is, the americans businessmen will be happy to get back those notes - why,
          they have their wants and needs which could be gotten by having those
          notes!! people starve not because they are stupid but because they have no
          money to buy food. some countries, like some third world countries, have
          their entire population starve because they have no ability to create goods
          and services (that is wanted) - and though their dumb govt could print
          dollars like nobody's business, no body would want to do business with them,
          knowing that those dollars have no actual substance in terms of goods and
          services; u will be shortchanged if u exchange ur currency with theirs. i
          wish i have studied economics to answer more professionally (and perhaps
          correctly). but that is how i understand money in a intuitive way, correct
          me if im wrong.

          james.


          From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: What is money?
          Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 23:27:00 -0700

          I must join you in confessing that I am not qualified to answer your
          questions. I would simply note that the gold standard seems quite silly by
          today's economic theory. I suppose with the gold standard, the amount of
          currency in circulation could be controlled by the central bank buying and
          selling good. Perhaps today it would make more sense to have a petroleum
          standard or a plutonium standard rather than a gold standard. If potable
          water were scarce, which it may well be someday, a nations wealth might be
          measured in gallons of H20 it had in reserve.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Matthew Dioguardi
          Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 9:19 PM
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: What is money?

          Chris,


          Your post caused me to think of the following questions. None of which I
          feel qualified to answer.


          1. Is the ability of the government to adjust currency value so as to affect
          policy different when we have a gold standard, as opposed to fiat money,
          which we have now?


          2. If there is a difference, what is it, and what are the ethical
          implications?


          Just a couple of thoughts.


          Regards,
          Matthew








          James said:
          >>perhaps dollars and money of a country is backed by the amount of goods
          and
          services actually available in that country. <<

          I think James is right on this point. Has anyone read the Wealth of Nations
          lately? Who would want gold trinkets when you can get planes, cars,
          stereos, CD, DVDs, xbox, and computers with the dollar. Now you can even
          pay the Russians and they'll take you up into space. The gold standard was
          an impediment to economic growth and ceased to reflect a nation's true
          worth, which is properly measured in its creativity and productivity. As
          long as the American people continue to work hard and be creative, the
          dollar will be strong. The same can be said for any countries currency.
          Complaining that one country's currency is too strong is like complaining
          that your co-workers are too industrious, inventive and dedicated. Of
          course, such complaints are routinely made by some workers, especially the
          more lazy,in an effort to slow down productivity and conceal their own lack
          of industry.


          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          WisdomForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com








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        • merlinofexmoor
          What is money? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17458645 They seem to have overlooked not using it. If we did
          Message 4 of 4 , Mar 26, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            What is money?

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17458645
            <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17458645>

            They seem to have overlooked not using it. If we did not use it then it
            could not cause any problems and arguments. And half of the crime, or
            more, would be eliminated by virtue of which. Get rid of it. It is the
            sign of a retarded society. A pox on capitalism, money, usury, banks,
            and bank gnomes. The only payment required for working is to receive
            some of the products which humanity makes and the physical planet
            produces. And each take out of it the measure which they put into it.
            It does not require an artificial middle man. Capitalism is like
            religions in needing a middle man that ain't there. How many beads
            has that smart cookie got? How many working brains cells has he got?
            Better give him some fish oil tablets.

            Give ALL your money to the local bank, for that is what they want, and
            then tell them goodbye chum and don't use them any more. But you
            will all have to do it at the same time. How about midnight on the 21st
            of December 2012. The world would end :- )))) Nah it would not mate it
            would become FREE and it could then begin to grow up into a big boy!

            rwr







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