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RE: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death

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  • Eduard Alf
    Bill, the primary responsibility is to the society ... to the collective. The idea of the individual is something that arises when we are young as we develop
    Message 1 of 9 , May 2, 2002
      Bill,

      the primary responsibility is to the society ... to the collective. The
      idea of the individual is something that arises when we are young as we
      develop our ego. But the process of life is to find a way of submerging our
      ego to the greater good. The trick, however, is that in submerging our ego,
      we are still able to retain it.

      The cult of the individual is a myth. Remember that scene in "Blazing
      Saddles" where the black cowboy/sheriff rides over the horizon into the
      sunset. That is the way that all the old cowboy movies ended. The
      solitary hero going onto to fight more evil. But in this film, the camera
      follows the cowboy/sheriff and we find that he is only riding to his
      limousine.

      The same applies to Existentialism. Although Sartre says that "hell is
      other people", this does not stop him from jumping in bed with every two
      legged female he can find. Sartre is very much a part of the collective.

      captain jack
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Bill Harris [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
      Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:34 AM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


      Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
      also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both. Females,
      relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
      society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
      seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
      socialism are not in style.
      Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
      is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s history
      and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
      about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice collectivist
      dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
      individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me. If
      the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
      committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
      Bill----- Original Message -----
      From: judith@...
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
      Subject: [existlist] Egodeath


      Hi James

      You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective conscious -
      global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit the
      reading time in.

      Many thanks, Judith.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin


      > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
      thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
      concious (has many other names does it not?).
      http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
      >
      > Arts based portrayl of #4.
      >
      > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
      >
      > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
      >
      > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
      > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
      > lets me see.
      > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
      > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
      > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
      >
      > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
      > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
      > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
      >
      > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
      > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
      > lets me see there is so much more
      > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
      > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
      > drawn outside the lines of reason.
      > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
      >
      > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
      > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
      >
      > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
      > Reaching out to embrace the random.
      > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
      >
      > I embrace my desire to
      > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
      > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
      > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
      > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
      > to swing on the spiral
      > of our divinity and still be a human.
      >
      > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
      > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
      > I feel it move across my skin.
      > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
      > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
      > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
      > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
      > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I have come curiously close to the end, down
      > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
      > Defeated, I concede and
      > Move closer
      > I may find comfort here
      > I may find peace within the emptiness
      > How pitiful
      >
      > It's calling me...
      >
      > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
      > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
      > As full and bright as I am
      > This light is not my own and
      > A million light reflections pass over me
      >
      > Its source is bright and endless
      > She resuscitates the hopeless
      > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
      >
      > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
      > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
      > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
      > I pray the light lifts me out
      > Before I pine away.
      >
      > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
      > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
      > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
      > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
      > Just let the light touch you
      > And let the words spill through
      > And let them pass right through
      > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
      > before we pine away.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: judith@...
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
      >
      >
      > Hi everyone!
      >
      > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
      >
      > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
      > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
      him/her
      > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
      > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
      larger
      > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
      sense
      of
      > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
      Therefore
      it
      > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not offend
      our
      > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds or
      > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
      eyed.,
      > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor the
      ease
      > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple solution
      we
      > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
      widespread
      > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does not
      > exist.
      >
      > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into one
      great
      > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
      each
      > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing our
      > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
      >
      > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
      simultaneously
      > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
      >
      > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
      >
      > jml.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      >
      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >



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      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bill Harris
      Eduard, the society, like a god, is a myth. The society is a concept for collectivists to pour their unimaginative energy into. Government is real. The FAA is
      Message 2 of 9 , May 2, 2002
        Eduard, the society, like a god, is a myth. The society is a concept for collectivists to pour their unimaginative energy into. Government is real. The FAA is real. You are real, I am real. The Society is a concept some like to bow to ,I do not owe it a damn thing. To endow a non definable concept with more importance than your individualism is absolutely beyond the scope of existentialism and sanity.
        Trying to understand a collective before you understand your own position in the construct is also madness. Hiding in collectives without a personal identity or philosophy is why human affairs are in such a sorry state. The blind follow the blind and huddle togeather in their stupidity. Up the society, ya, way up. Bill
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Eduard Alf
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 2:30 PM
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


        Bill,

        the primary responsibility is to the society ... to the collective. The
        idea of the individual is something that arises when we are young as we
        develop our ego. But the process of life is to find a way of submerging our
        ego to the greater good. The trick, however, is that in submerging our ego,
        we are still able to retain it.

        The cult of the individual is a myth. Remember that scene in "Blazing
        Saddles" where the black cowboy/sheriff rides over the horizon into the
        sunset. That is the way that all the old cowboy movies ended. The
        solitary hero going onto to fight more evil. But in this film, the camera
        follows the cowboy/sheriff and we find that he is only riding to his
        limousine.

        The same applies to Existentialism. Although Sartre says that "hell is
        other people", this does not stop him from jumping in bed with every two
        legged female he can find. Sartre is very much a part of the collective.

        captain jack
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Bill Harris [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
        Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:34 AM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


        Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
        also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both. Females,
        relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
        society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
        seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
        socialism are not in style.
        Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
        is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s history
        and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
        about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice collectivist
        dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
        individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me. If
        the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
        committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
        Bill----- Original Message -----
        From: judith@...
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
        Subject: [existlist] Egodeath


        Hi James

        You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective conscious -
        global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit the
        reading time in.

        Many thanks, Judith.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin


        > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
        thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
        concious (has many other names does it not?).
        http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
        >
        > Arts based portrayl of #4.
        >
        > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
        >
        > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
        >
        > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
        > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
        > lets me see.
        > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
        > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
        > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
        >
        > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
        > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
        > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
        >
        > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
        > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
        > lets me see there is so much more
        > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
        > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
        > drawn outside the lines of reason.
        > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
        >
        > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
        > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
        >
        > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
        > Reaching out to embrace the random.
        > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
        >
        > I embrace my desire to
        > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
        > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
        > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
        > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
        > to swing on the spiral
        > of our divinity and still be a human.
        >
        > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
        > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
        > I feel it move across my skin.
        > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
        > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
        > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
        > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
        > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I have come curiously close to the end, down
        > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
        > Defeated, I concede and
        > Move closer
        > I may find comfort here
        > I may find peace within the emptiness
        > How pitiful
        >
        > It's calling me...
        >
        > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
        > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
        > As full and bright as I am
        > This light is not my own and
        > A million light reflections pass over me
        >
        > Its source is bright and endless
        > She resuscitates the hopeless
        > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
        >
        > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
        > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
        > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
        > I pray the light lifts me out
        > Before I pine away.
        >
        > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
        > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
        > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
        > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
        > Just let the light touch you
        > And let the words spill through
        > And let them pass right through
        > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
        > before we pine away.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: judith@...
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
        >
        >
        > Hi everyone!
        >
        > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
        >
        > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
        > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
        him/her
        > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
        > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
        larger
        > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
        sense
        of
        > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
        Therefore
        it
        > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not offend
        our
        > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds or
        > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
        eyed.,
        > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor the
        ease
        > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple solution
        we
        > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
        widespread
        > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does not
        > exist.
        >
        > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into one
        great
        > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
        each
        > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing our
        > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
        >
        > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
        simultaneously
        > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
        >
        > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
        >
        > jml.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        >
        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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        Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Eduard Alf
        Bill, I did not say that one should lose their individual personality .... I said that the trick is to retain it. But the bottom line is that the collective
        Message 3 of 9 , May 2, 2002
          Bill,

          I did not say that one should lose their individual personality .... I said
          that the trick is to retain it. But the bottom line is that the collective
          is more important than the individual. You can consult NOOism to know the
          truth of that statement [wait a day, however, so that I have time to get it
          in].

          No matter how you cut it, the health of a country is dependent upon the
          health of the society. I am not suggesting that, at this time, the society
          is healthy, but it does not help things to consider it to be a myth.

          captain jack

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Bill Harris [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
          Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 4:58 PM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


          Eduard, the society, like a god, is a myth. The society is a concept for
          collectivists to pour their unimaginative energy into. Government is real.
          The FAA is real. You are real, I am real. The Society is a concept some like
          to bow to ,I do not owe it a damn thing. To endow a non definable concept
          with more importance than your individualism is absolutely beyond the scope
          of existentialism and sanity.
          Trying to understand a collective before you understand your own position
          in the construct is also madness. Hiding in collectives without a personal
          identity or philosophy is why human affairs are in such a sorry state. The
          blind follow the blind and huddle togeather in their stupidity. Up the
          society, ya, way up. Bill


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • judith@qbase.org
          Dear Bill My greatest existential trait is trying to do too much ... so in addition to trying to complete all the usual tasks of my daily life, I am going to
          Message 4 of 9 , May 2, 2002
            Dear Bill

            My greatest existential trait is trying to do too much ... so in addition to
            trying to complete all the usual tasks of my daily life, I am going to
            dedicate some time to developing a framework that may be of some use.

            Coming from a more "scientific" perspective, to the satisfaction of my mind,
            I think I have schematically (mathematically?) resolved about 3/4 of the
            gender issues you have cast upon existentialism - admittedly I have not come
            across feminism v existentialism debate before.

            Preliminarily, my thoughts would tend to superordinate existentialism's
            relevance beyond my previous conceptualisations. I will be seeking to
            address the issues from a three (3) tier framework as follows:

            (a) Fundamental Germinal Existentialism
            (b) Socio-Organic Existentialism
            (c) Individual-Experiential Existentialsim

            [ Is "germinal" a word of my own invention? I haven't found it in the
            dictionary, however I propose it to mean the opposite of terminal ].

            You should expect that the result will be more pragmatic than
            complex-theoretical. Having said that, the 1/4 that I am still trying to
            resolve is an appropriate sequencing of (a), (b), and (c) along a
            continuum - whether is it in fact (a), (b), (c) or (a), (c), (b), or (c),
            (a), (b) or another variant.

            When done, I think my model will help to pull together biology, chemistry,
            physics and the cosmic and thereby demystfy and help bring harmony to keen
            minds. To make the philosophy more accessible, is to deconstruct those
            systemic enculturation processes that may currently be seen to impede
            effective knowledge transmission.

            Just call me workaholic.

            I'll write again soon.

            Regards, Judith.





            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <judith@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:40 AM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


            > Dear Bill
            >
            > You have made some significant comments and observations - I will have to
            > take some time out to think and reconcile a comprehensive framework to all
            > if this.
            >
            > Meanwhile, since multi-streaming seems to be the order of all things these
            > days, especially this chat group, I would query whether you are positing
            > some sort of neo-existentialism, birthing an offshoot ideology or simply
            > seeking to cast some random vignettes.
            >
            > jml.
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
            > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:34 AM
            > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death
            >
            >
            > > Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
            > also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both.
            Females,
            > relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
            > society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
            > seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
            > socialism are not in style.
            > > Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
            > is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s
            history
            > and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
            > about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice
            collectivist
            > dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
            > individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me.
            If
            > the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
            > committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
            > Bill----- Original Message -----
            > > From: judith@...
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
            > > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi James
            > >
            > > You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective
            conscious -
            > > global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit
            the
            > > reading time in.
            > >
            > > Many thanks, Judith.
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
            > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
            > >
            > >
            > > > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
            > > thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
            > > concious (has many other names does it not?).
            > > http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
            > > >
            > > > Arts based portrayl of #4.
            > > >
            > > > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
            > > >
            > > > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
            > > >
            > > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
            > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
            > > > lets me see.
            > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
            > > > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
            > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
            > > >
            > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
            > > > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
            > > > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
            > > >
            > > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
            > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
            > > > lets me see there is so much more
            > > > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
            > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
            > > > drawn outside the lines of reason.
            > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
            > > >
            > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
            > > > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
            > > >
            > > > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
            > > > Reaching out to embrace the random.
            > > > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
            > > >
            > > > I embrace my desire to
            > > > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
            > > > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
            > > > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
            > > > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
            > > > to swing on the spiral
            > > > of our divinity and still be a human.
            > > >
            > > > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
            > > > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
            > > > I feel it move across my skin.
            > > > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
            > > > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
            > > > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
            > > > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's
            been.
            > > > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I have come curiously close to the end, down
            > > > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
            > > > Defeated, I concede and
            > > > Move closer
            > > > I may find comfort here
            > > > I may find peace within the emptiness
            > > > How pitiful
            > > >
            > > > It's calling me...
            > > >
            > > > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
            > > > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
            > > > As full and bright as I am
            > > > This light is not my own and
            > > > A million light reflections pass over me
            > > >
            > > > Its source is bright and endless
            > > > She resuscitates the hopeless
            > > > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
            > > >
            > > > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
            > > > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
            > > > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
            > > > I pray the light lifts me out
            > > > Before I pine away.
            > > >
            > > > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
            > > > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
            > > > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
            > > > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
            > > > Just let the light touch you
            > > > And let the words spill through
            > > > And let them pass right through
            > > > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
            > > > before we pine away.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: judith@...
            > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
            > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hi everyone!
            > > >
            > > > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
            > > >
            > > > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
            > > > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
            > > him/her
            > > > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
            > > > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
            > larger
            > > > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
            > sense
            > > of
            > > > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
            > Therefore
            > > it
            > > > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not
            offend
            > our
            > > > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds
            or
            > > > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
            > > eyed.,
            > > > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor
            the
            > ease
            > > > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple
            solution
            > we
            > > > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
            > > widespread
            > > > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does
            not
            > > > exist.
            > > >
            > > > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into
            one
            > > great
            > > > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
            > each
            > > > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing
            our
            > > > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
            > > >
            > > > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
            > > simultaneously
            > > > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
            > > >
            > > > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
            > > >
            > > > jml.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            > > >
            > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            > >
            > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            > >
            > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • George Walton
            Judith, Wow, and I thought I was the only one who knew everything! wink, wink Biggie ... === message truncated ===
            Message 5 of 9 , May 3, 2002
              Judith,

              Wow, and I thought I was the only one who knew
              everything!

              wink, wink

              Biggie
              --- judith@... wrote:
              > Dear Bill
              >
              > My greatest existential trait is trying to do too
              > much ... so in addition to
              > trying to complete all the usual tasks of my daily
              > life, I am going to
              > dedicate some time to developing a framework that
              > may be of some use.
              >
              > Coming from a more "scientific" perspective, to the
              > satisfaction of my mind,
              > I think I have schematically (mathematically?)
              > resolved about 3/4 of the
              > gender issues you have cast upon existentialism -
              > admittedly I have not come
              > across feminism v existentialism debate before.
              >
              > Preliminarily, my thoughts would tend to
              > superordinate existentialism's
              > relevance beyond my previous conceptualisations. I
              > will be seeking to
              > address the issues from a three (3) tier framework
              > as follows:
              >
              > (a) Fundamental Germinal Existentialism
              > (b) Socio-Organic Existentialism
              > (c) Individual-Experiential Existentialsim
              >
              > [ Is "germinal" a word of my own invention? I
              > haven't found it in the
              > dictionary, however I propose it to mean the
              > opposite of terminal ].
              >
              > You should expect that the result will be more
              > pragmatic than
              > complex-theoretical. Having said that, the 1/4 that
              > I am still trying to
              > resolve is an appropriate sequencing of (a), (b),
              > and (c) along a
              > continuum - whether is it in fact (a), (b), (c) or
              > (a), (c), (b), or (c),
              > (a), (b) or another variant.
              >
              > When done, I think my model will help to pull
              > together biology, chemistry,
              > physics and the cosmic and thereby demystfy and help
              > bring harmony to keen
              > minds. To make the philosophy more accessible, is to
              > deconstruct those
              > systemic enculturation processes that may currently
              > be seen to impede
              > effective knowledge transmission.
              >
              > Just call me workaholic.
              >
              > I'll write again soon.
              >
              > Regards, Judith.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <judith@...>
              > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:40 AM
              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death
              >
              >
              > > Dear Bill
              > >
              > > You have made some significant comments and
              > observations - I will have to
              > > take some time out to think and reconcile a
              > comprehensive framework to all
              > > if this.
              > >
              > > Meanwhile, since multi-streaming seems to be the
              > order of all things these
              > > days, especially this chat group, I would query
              > whether you are positing
              > > some sort of neo-existentialism, birthing an
              > offshoot ideology or simply
              > > seeking to cast some random vignettes.
              > >
              > > jml.
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
              > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:34 AM
              > > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death
              > >
              > >
              > > > Judith, I think individual ego is derived from
              > survival instinct. It is
              > > also related to testosterone so there fore males
              > have more of both.
              > Females,
              > > relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the
              > collective. The feminization of US
              > > society may be on the downside of the movement.
              > The Bush administration
              > > seems to take a more aggressive, individualist
              > stance. Soft males and
              > > socialism are not in style.
              > > > Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone
              > of existentialism. That
              > > is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its
              > sex up against it`s
              > history
              > > and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the
              > woman's movement does
              > > about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard
              > serves up a nice
              > collectivist
              > > dream world. It is closely related to Eduards
              > happy neuron Idea. Diluting
              > > individualism will not happen because there are
              > way to many guys like me.
              > If
              > > the collective won out the species would die as a
              > defenseless and pitiful
              > > committee. You don`t have to like us but you have
              > to have us to survive.
              > > Bill----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: judith@...
              > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
              > > > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi James
              > > >
              > > > You're right, there are a lot of other names
              > for collective
              > conscious -
              > > > global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and
              > more... for when I can fit
              > the
              > > > reading time in.
              > > >
              > > > Many thanks, Judith.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
              > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
              > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the
              > removal of self consuming
              > > > thought theoretically bring an opening to what
              > you call the collective
              > > > concious (has many other names does it not?).
              > > > http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
              > > > >
              > > > > Arts based portrayl of #4.
              > > > >
              > > > > some artwork relating to this concept
              > www.alexgrey.com
              > > > >
              > > > > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
              > > > >
              > > > > Black then white are all I see in my
              > infancy.
              > > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out
              > to me.
              > > > > lets me see.
              > > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
              > > > > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
              > > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
              > > > >
              > > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the
              > body from the mind.
              > > > > Withering my intuition, missing
              > opportunities and I must
              > > > > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way
              > outside the lines.
              > > > >
              > > > > Black then white are all I see in my
              > infancy.
              > > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out
              > to me.
              > > > > lets me see there is so much more
              > > > > and beckons me to look through to these
              > infinite possibilities.
              > > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
              > > > > drawn outside the lines of reason.
              > > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
              > > > >
              > > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the
              > body from the mind.
              > > > > Withering my intuition leaving all these
              > opportunities behind.
              > > > >
              > > > > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me
              > to cross the line.
              >
              === message truncated ===


              __________________________________________________
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            • Bill Harris
              Judith, Far out and good luck. Bill ... From: judith@qbase.org To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [existlist]
              Message 6 of 9 , May 7, 2002
                Judith, Far out and good luck. Bill
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: judith@...
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:12 PM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


                Dear Bill

                My greatest existential trait is trying to do too much ... so in addition to
                trying to complete all the usual tasks of my daily life, I am going to
                dedicate some time to developing a framework that may be of some use.

                Coming from a more "scientific" perspective, to the satisfaction of my mind,
                I think I have schematically (mathematically?) resolved about 3/4 of the
                gender issues you have cast upon existentialism - admittedly I have not come
                across feminism v existentialism debate before.

                Preliminarily, my thoughts would tend to superordinate existentialism's
                relevance beyond my previous conceptualisations. I will be seeking to
                address the issues from a three (3) tier framework as follows:

                (a) Fundamental Germinal Existentialism
                (b) Socio-Organic Existentialism
                (c) Individual-Experiential Existentialsim

                [ Is "germinal" a word of my own invention? I haven't found it in the
                dictionary, however I propose it to mean the opposite of terminal ].

                You should expect that the result will be more pragmatic than
                complex-theoretical. Having said that, the 1/4 that I am still trying to
                resolve is an appropriate sequencing of (a), (b), and (c) along a
                continuum - whether is it in fact (a), (b), (c) or (a), (c), (b), or (c),
                (a), (b) or another variant.

                When done, I think my model will help to pull together biology, chemistry,
                physics and the cosmic and thereby demystfy and help bring harmony to keen
                minds. To make the philosophy more accessible, is to deconstruct those
                systemic enculturation processes that may currently be seen to impede
                effective knowledge transmission.

                Just call me workaholic.

                I'll write again soon.

                Regards, Judith.





                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <judith@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:40 AM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


                > Dear Bill
                >
                > You have made some significant comments and observations - I will have to
                > take some time out to think and reconcile a comprehensive framework to all
                > if this.
                >
                > Meanwhile, since multi-streaming seems to be the order of all things these
                > days, especially this chat group, I would query whether you are positing
                > some sort of neo-existentialism, birthing an offshoot ideology or simply
                > seeking to cast some random vignettes.
                >
                > jml.
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:34 AM
                > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death
                >
                >
                > > Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
                > also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both.
                Females,
                > relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
                > society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
                > seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
                > socialism are not in style.
                > > Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
                > is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s
                history
                > and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
                > about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice
                collectivist
                > dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
                > individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me.
                If
                > the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
                > committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
                > Bill----- Original Message -----
                > > From: judith@...
                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
                > > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi James
                > >
                > > You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective
                conscious -
                > > global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit
                the
                > > reading time in.
                > >
                > > Many thanks, Judith.
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
                > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
                > >
                > >
                > > > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
                > > thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
                > > concious (has many other names does it not?).
                > > http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
                > > >
                > > > Arts based portrayl of #4.
                > > >
                > > > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
                > > >
                > > > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
                > > >
                > > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
                > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
                > > > lets me see.
                > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
                > > > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
                > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
                > > >
                > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
                > > > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
                > > > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
                > > >
                > > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
                > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
                > > > lets me see there is so much more
                > > > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
                > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
                > > > drawn outside the lines of reason.
                > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
                > > >
                > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
                > > > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
                > > >
                > > > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
                > > > Reaching out to embrace the random.
                > > > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
                > > >
                > > > I embrace my desire to
                > > > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
                > > > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
                > > > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
                > > > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
                > > > to swing on the spiral
                > > > of our divinity and still be a human.
                > > >
                > > > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
                > > > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
                > > > I feel it move across my skin.
                > > > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
                > > > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
                > > > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
                > > > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's
                been.
                > > > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I have come curiously close to the end, down
                > > > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
                > > > Defeated, I concede and
                > > > Move closer
                > > > I may find comfort here
                > > > I may find peace within the emptiness
                > > > How pitiful
                > > >
                > > > It's calling me...
                > > >
                > > > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
                > > > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
                > > > As full and bright as I am
                > > > This light is not my own and
                > > > A million light reflections pass over me
                > > >
                > > > Its source is bright and endless
                > > > She resuscitates the hopeless
                > > > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
                > > >
                > > > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
                > > > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
                > > > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
                > > > I pray the light lifts me out
                > > > Before I pine away.
                > > >
                > > > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
                > > > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
                > > > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
                > > > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
                > > > Just let the light touch you
                > > > And let the words spill through
                > > > And let them pass right through
                > > > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
                > > > before we pine away.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: judith@...
                > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
                > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hi everyone!
                > > >
                > > > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
                > > >
                > > > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
                > > > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
                > > him/her
                > > > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
                > > > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
                > larger
                > > > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
                > sense
                > > of
                > > > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
                > Therefore
                > > it
                > > > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not
                offend
                > our
                > > > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds
                or
                > > > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
                > > eyed.,
                > > > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor
                the
                > ease
                > > > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple
                solution
                > we
                > > > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
                > > widespread
                > > > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does
                not
                > > > exist.
                > > >
                > > > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into
                one
                > > great
                > > > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
                > each
                > > > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing
                our
                > > > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
                > > >
                > > > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
                > > simultaneously
                > > > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
                > > >
                > > > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
                > > >
                > > > jml.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
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